Knowledgable People

My build progresses, we are now in the process of ordering the timber,
and as normal the location issue makes life hard.

I have a neighbour with a portable log saw, who can cut trees down to
any size joists and planks, and we have a good supply of trees from
the local managed forrests. He can also deliver by tractor, wich helps
somewhat.

The engineer has specifed D30 Grade for the Oak, and C16 for the other
timbers. Unfortunatly wood from my neighbour is ungraded, and Mr
Building Inspector could well get upset at this.

All the C16 timer in the wood yards is ugly, mine will be on show, so
I would like some nice looking wood, Douglas Fir is favorite right
now.

I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist,
it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person.

The current plan is to find a suitable "skilled person" and pay
him/her to trundle on out to my house and grade my wood.

Where would I go to find such a person, I have been to 3 saw mills in
my area, none of them can grade wood, do I just keep expanding my
search ?

Am I missing something obvious ?

Thanks
Rick

Rick Dipper wrote:

I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist,
it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person.

Not very difficult, Used to be part of good civil engineering courses.


Try http://www.trada.co.uk/services/4106...r_grading.html

Regards
Capitol

Rick Dipper wrote:

I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist,
it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person.

Sounds like you just need a C16 stamp and some ink! If finding somone
who can visually grade the timber is that hard, chances are the BCO will
not have a clue either! ;-)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 06:47:06 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

Rick Dipper wrote:

I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist,
it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person.

Sounds like you just need a C16 stamp and some ink! If finding somone
who can visually grade the timber is that hard, chances are the BCO will
not have a clue either! ;-)

Top Quality Idea - job sorted.

Rick

"Rick Dipper" wrote in message
...
Knowledgable People

My build progresses, we are now in the process of ordering the timber,
and as normal the location issue makes life hard.

I have a neighbour with a portable log saw, who can cut trees down to
any size joists and planks, and we have a good supply of trees from
the local managed forrests. He can also deliver by tractor, wich helps
somewhat.

The engineer has specifed D30 Grade for the Oak, and C16 for the other
timbers. Unfortunatly wood from my neighbour is ungraded, and Mr
Building Inspector could well get upset at this.

All the C16 timer in the wood yards is ugly, mine will be on show, so
I would like some nice looking wood, Douglas Fir is favorite right
now.

I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist,
it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person.

The current plan is to find a suitable "skilled person" and pay
him/her to trundle on out to my house and grade my wood.

Where would I go to find such a person, I have been to 3 saw mills in
my area, none of them can grade wood, do I just keep expanding my
search ?

Am I missing something obvious ?

Graded wood must now be kiln dried in an approved kiln. Without that your
friend's wood is unusable in construction - no ifs, maybes or workarounds.

On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 21:02:36 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:


"Rick Dipper" wrote in message
.. .
Knowledgable People

My build progresses, we are now in the process of ordering the timber,
and as normal the location issue makes life hard.

I have a neighbour with a portable log saw, who can cut trees down to
any size joists and planks, and we have a good supply of trees from
the local managed forrests. He can also deliver by tractor, wich helps
somewhat.

The engineer has specifed D30 Grade for the Oak, and C16 for the other
timbers. Unfortunatly wood from my neighbour is ungraded, and Mr
Building Inspector could well get upset at this.

All the C16 timer in the wood yards is ugly, mine will be on show, so
I would like some nice looking wood, Douglas Fir is favorite right
now.

I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist,
it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person.

The current plan is to find a suitable "skilled person" and pay
him/her to trundle on out to my house and grade my wood.

Where would I go to find such a person, I have been to 3 saw mills in
my area, none of them can grade wood, do I just keep expanding my
search ?

Am I missing something obvious ?

Graded wood must now be kiln dried in an approved kiln. Without that your
friend's wood is unusable in construction - no ifs, maybes or workarounds.


I assume that making your own approved kiln is expenive, not beacuse
of the construction (most I have seem are old containers) but for the
approval certificate.

So its another example of new regulations forcing me to support the
exploition of eastun europe, who sell their achient forrests real
cheep with a grading stamp on, insted of supporting the local rural
economey.

It a wonder my main house is still standing, with no foundations, no
waterproofers, no pea shingle, and no grading of the wood when the
chopped the tress to clear the site.

And of cource all the middle men in the CEE wood make it 3 times the
price of the local stuff.

This is quite upsetting for me, all of the basic house materials are
local, wall stone (picked off the land), slate (40 miles to the
quarry) cement (works is 15 miles away), bricks, labour. The wood will
come from the other side of europe.

Rick

Rick Dipper wrote:

This is quite upsetting for me, all of the basic house materials are
local, wall stone (picked off the land), slate (40 miles to the
quarry) cement (works is 15 miles away), bricks, labour. The wood will
come from the other side of europe.

Surely there must be someone reasonably local with a certified kiln? I
didn't know about this kiln certification business until I read this
thread, but I do know there are two yards within a 40mile drive of me
who bake their own C16 stamped timber.

--
Grunff

On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 23:30:56 +0100, Grunff wrote:

Rick Dipper wrote:

This is quite upsetting for me, all of the basic house materials are
local, wall stone (picked off the land), slate (40 miles to the
quarry) cement (works is 15 miles away), bricks, labour. The wood will
come from the other side of europe.

Surely there must be someone reasonably local with a certified kiln? I
didn't know about this kiln certification business until I read this
thread, but I do know there are two yards within a 40mile drive of me
who bake their own C16 stamped timber.

That will be my next line of investigation. My neighbour charges 1/3
of even the cheepest graded timber I can find on line, so I can afford
quite a bit of expence in drying/grading. His random oa flooring is
arround 5.50 a square meter, its unfinished, but you can buy a really
good sander with the money you save.

If you are neer chester/shrewsbury, maybe you can let me know who the
yards are.

Thanks
Rick

Rick Dipper wrote:

His random oa flooring is
arround 5.50 a square meter, its unfinished, but you can buy a really
good sander with the money you save.

Wow! There's a price you don't come across very often!


If you are neer chester/shrewsbury, maybe you can let me know who the
yards are.

I'm in Devon.

Good luck - there's bound to be somewhere within ~60 miles of you.


--
Grunff

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
G&M wrote:

Graded wood must now be kiln dried in an approved kiln. Without that
your
friend's wood is unusable in construction - no ifs, maybes or
workarounds.

Christ on a bike, another pile of stupid legislation.

fx: stares around house

Yup, completely timber framed, none of it kiln dried and it's lasted
over 300 years so far.

About time you bulldozed it then.

On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 21:02:36 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:

Graded wood must now be kiln dried in an approved kiln. Without that your
friend's wood is unusable in construction - no ifs, maybes or workarounds.

********.

Graded wood, particularly for oak, is entirely inappropriate for
high-end work, except for a few purposes involving glulam and
structural beams. You're better off with air-dried than kiln-dried,
but the regulations don't recognise anything other than McTimber
that's shoved through a kiln in the vain and pointless hope of turning
it into a homogeneous and consistent material. Timber isn't consistent
- get over it, and train some vaguely carpenters who can deal with it
as it is.

For construction, then don't forget green timber. So long as you have
a competent framer than you can build with this stuff when it had
leaves on a month earlier.
--
Smert' spamionam

Rick Dipper wrote:

The engineer has specifed D30 Grade for the Oak, and C16 for the other
timbers. Unfortunatly wood from my neighbour is ungraded, and Mr
Building Inspector could well get upset at this.

Could you not get the engineer to redo calcs without using C16? They
seem to quite often specify timber grades even when they aren't actually
necessary.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Could you not get the engineer to redo calcs without using C16? They
seem to quite often specify timber grades even when they aren't actually
necessary.

Yes this is the way to go I think. I had some oak soleplate replaced
this summer with new air dried local oak and the building inspector
wasn't at all interested in numbers like C16

Mind you my supplier charges more than 5.50 a square meter for oak
flooring. Drool

Anna

~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

Rick Dipper wrote in message . ..
Knowledgable People

My build progresses, we are now in the process of ordering the timber,
and as normal the location issue makes life hard.

I have a neighbour with a portable log saw, who can cut trees down to
any size joists and planks, and we have a good supply of trees from
the local managed forrests. He can also deliver by tractor, wich helps
somewhat.

The engineer has specifed D30 Grade for the Oak, and C16 for the other
timbers. Unfortunatly wood from my neighbour is ungraded, and Mr
Building Inspector could well get upset at this.

All the C16 timer in the wood yards is ugly, mine will be on show, so
I would like some nice looking wood, Douglas Fir is favorite right
now.

I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist,
it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person.

The current plan is to find a suitable "skilled person" and pay
him/her to trundle on out to my house and grade my wood.

Where would I go to find such a person, I have been to 3 saw mills in
my area, none of them can grade wood, do I just keep expanding my
search ?

Am I missing something obvious ?

Thanks
Rick

Hutton & Ross (Handr.co.uk - I think) can site grade your timber for
you.

As for missing something. Does the fact that green timber changes its
characteristics somewhat as it's drying out not affect your project? I
know green oak is often used, but green softwood????

Xav

You're better off with air-dried than kiln-dried,
but the regulations don't recognise anything other than McTimber
that's shoved through a kiln in the vain and pointless hope of turning
it into a homogeneous and consistent material.

I think a single kilning at source works fine, even below "air dry". The
problems arise with secondary kilning when timber is dried once for
shipping, and then again by McTimber to quickly comply with some regulation
or another.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 21:02:36 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:

Graded wood must now be kiln dried in an approved kiln. Without that
your
friend's wood is unusable in construction - no ifs, maybes or
workarounds.

********.

Graded wood, particularly for oak, is entirely inappropriate for
high-end work, except for a few purposes involving glulam and
structural beams. You're better off with air-dried than kiln-dried,
but the regulations don't recognise anything other than McTimber
that's shoved through a kiln in the vain and pointless hope of turning
it into a homogeneous and consistent material. Timber isn't consistent
- get over it, and train some vaguely carpenters who can deal with it
as it is.

For construction, then don't forget green timber. So long as you have
a competent framer than you can build with this stuff when it had
leaves on a month earlier.


As far as I'm aware unless it's TRADA stamped your friendly BCO will tell
you to take it down. I really suggest the OP discusses this with him to
ask his opinion on whether the wood you have is suitable or not.

On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 22:22:40 GMT, Rick Dipper
wrote:

I assume that making your own approved kiln is expenive, not beacuse
of the construction (most I have seem are old containers) but for the
approval certificate.

Hi,

Try ringing around and seeing how much will be charged for kiln
drying, or whether it's possible to redesign for non graded wood.

This is quite upsetting for me, all of the basic house materials are
local, wall stone (picked off the land), slate (40 miles to the
quarry) cement (works is 15 miles away), bricks, labour. The wood will

If you can get it kiln dried locally there is no problem. If you were
the architect would you accept liability for using non graded wood
when the design required graded?

cheers,
Pete.

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Could you not get the engineer to redo calcs without using C16?
They seem to quite often specify timber grades even when they
aren't actually necessary.

C16 is ordinary structural softwood. A piece of timber that
wouldn't get graded as such would be rejected by any carpenter
that knows his job.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:57:48 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:

As far as I'm aware unless it's TRADA stamped your friendly BCO will tell
you to take it down.

No. Or at least, only if the architect has called for some particular
grading. There's no general rule thgat says ungraded timber can't be
used for building work.

Grading is by and large a sign of _inferior_ timber. What it's for is
to allow unskilled chippies to slap things together "by the numbers"
without they themselves having to understand timber. If you follow the
gradings, nothing too bad ought to fall down.

For low-end work, grading is entirely appropriate. And I hope never to
live in another house built from pre-fab roof trusses and nail plates!

At the high-end though, grading is irrelevant and inappropriate. It's
the _carpenter's_ job to understand the timber they're working with,
and to build competently with it. Unfortunately there's a shortage of
such good people, and at £7.50/hour for timber framers then there's
hardly any incentive for anyone to go into this field.

--
Smert' spamionam

G&M wrote:

"Rick Dipper" wrote in message
...

Knowledgable People

My build progresses, we are now in the process of ordering the timber,
and as normal the location issue makes life hard.

I have a neighbour with a portable log saw, who can cut trees down to
any size joists and planks, and we have a good supply of trees from
the local managed forrests. He can also deliver by tractor, wich helps
somewhat.

The engineer has specifed D30 Grade for the Oak, and C16 for the other
timbers. Unfortunatly wood from my neighbour is ungraded, and Mr
Building Inspector could well get upset at this.

All the C16 timer in the wood yards is ugly, mine will be on show, so
I would like some nice looking wood, Douglas Fir is favorite right
now.

I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist,
it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person.

The current plan is to find a suitable "skilled person" and pay
him/her to trundle on out to my house and grade my wood.

Where would I go to find such a person, I have been to 3 saw mills in
my area, none of them can grade wood, do I just keep expanding my
search ?

Am I missing something obvious ?


Graded wood must now be kiln dried in an approved kiln. Without that your
friend's wood is unusable in construction - no ifs, maybes or workarounds.


********. I have a new house made of green oak, Never been near a kiln.

BCO was fine with it.

xavier wrote:

Rick Dipper wrote in message . ..

Knowledgable People

My build progresses, we are now in the process of ordering the timber,
and as normal the location issue makes life hard.

I have a neighbour with a portable log saw, who can cut trees down to
any size joists and planks, and we have a good supply of trees from
the local managed forrests. He can also deliver by tractor, wich helps
somewhat.

The engineer has specifed D30 Grade for the Oak, and C16 for the other
timbers. Unfortunatly wood from my neighbour is ungraded, and Mr
Building Inspector could well get upset at this.

All the C16 timer in the wood yards is ugly, mine will be on show, so
I would like some nice looking wood, Douglas Fir is favorite right
now.

I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist,
it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person.

The current plan is to find a suitable "skilled person" and pay
him/her to trundle on out to my house and grade my wood.

Where would I go to find such a person, I have been to 3 saw mills in
my area, none of them can grade wood, do I just keep expanding my
search ?

Am I missing something obvious ?

Thanks
Rick


Hutton & Ross (Handr.co.uk - I think) can site grade your timber for
you.

As for missing something. Does the fact that green timber changes its
characteristics somewhat as it's drying out not affect your project? I
know green oak is often used, but green softwood????


Its not much worse on shrinkage really. 10% across the grain and 1%
along it is average for any wood.

Xav

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:57:48 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:


As far as I'm aware unless it's TRADA stamped your friendly BCO will tell
you to take it down.


No. Or at least, only if the architect has called for some particular
grading. There's no general rule thgat says ungraded timber can't be
used for building work.

Grading is by and large a sign of _inferior_ timber. What it's for is
to allow unskilled chippies to slap things together "by the numbers"
without they themselves having to understand timber. If you follow the
gradings, nothing too bad ought to fall down.

For low-end work, grading is entirely appropriate. And I hope never to
live in another house built from pre-fab roof trusses and nail plates!

At the high-end though, grading is irrelevant and inappropriate. It's
the _carpenter's_ job to understand the timber they're working with,
and to build competently with it. Unfortunately there's a shortage of
such good people, and at £7.50/hour for timber framers then there's
hardly any incentive for anyone to go into this field.

My chippies charge twice that, plus VAT, and are in great demand.

BTW I trotally agree with you about BCO etc. The BCO will reject
anything obviosuly suspect, but will be totally happy with over
engieered green wood beams, as long as he feels you and the carpenters
understand the shrinkage implications.
I have had EXTREME problems in one area where I used a kiln dried and
outdoor treated bit of wood. The bugger has EXPANDED on me. INDOORS!!!

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:11:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Unfortunately there's a shortage of
such good people, and at £7.50/hour for timber framers then there's
hardly any incentive for anyone to go into this field.

My chippies charge twice that, plus VAT, and are in great demand.

Then that's very cheap and you should snap them up.

The 7.50 is what experienced framers are _paid_ by one well-known
framing outfit. They charge them out at twenty-something.

Unless you're running your own business though (and many people just
don't want to do this), then you're earning twenty and getting paid
seven.

I have had EXTREME problems in one area where I used a kiln dried and
outdoor treated bit of wood. The bugger has EXPANDED on me. INDOORS!!!

What else can it do ? Timber doesn't just "shrink" on seasoning in
some asymmetric and irreversible manner, it pumps in and out with
changes in moisture in either direction (after a few years it setles
down a bit)

--
Smert' spamionam

On 10 Oct 2004 04:55:35 -0700, (xavier) wrote:


As for missing something. Does the fact that green timber changes its
characteristics somewhat as it's drying out not affect your project?

Yes. The skill is in understanding this.

know green oak is often used, but green softwood????

I use green larch a lot. You have to deal with shrinkage which is
easy, the bigger problem is its far greater tendency to twist compared
to oak.

--
Smert' spamionam

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:57:48 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:

As far as I'm aware unless it's TRADA stamped your friendly BCO will tell
you to take it down.

No. Or at least, only if the architect has called for some particular
grading. There's no general rule thgat says ungraded timber can't be
used for building work.

Okay. Here's my reasoning. Compliance with the Construction Products
Directive (CPD) is mandatory for all items of construction which are
'intended to be incorporated permanently in the works', i.e. building or
structure.

BM TRADA is the only authority I am aware in the UK who can give this
compliance, though of course there are others in other EU countries.

In any case CE marking of constructional materials will become mandatory in
due course so unless you cut the tree down and prepare it yourself I don't
see how one can use ungraded wood after that. That doesn't mean that
'green' oak can't be used, just that it has to be checked it complies with
some standard.



At the high-end though, grading is irrelevant and inappropriate. It's
the _carpenter's_ job to understand the timber they're working with,
and to build competently with it.

Agreed - but EU rules generally don't assume best practices :-)

G&M wrote:

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:57:48 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:

As far as I'm aware unless it's TRADA stamped your friendly BCO will tell
you to take it down.

No. Or at least, only if the architect has called for some particular
grading. There's no general rule thgat says ungraded timber can't be
used for building work.

Okay. Here's my reasoning. Compliance with the Construction Products
Directive (CPD) is mandatory for all items of construction which are
snip
In any case CE marking of constructional materials will become mandatory in
due course so unless you cut the tree down and prepare it yourself I don't
see how one can use ungraded wood after that. That doesn't mean that
'green' oak can't be used, just that it has to be checked it complies with
some standard.

AIUI, (though I am coming at this from the electronics side) it's
perfectly legal to CE mark the stuff yourself, you only get into trouble
if it's later found not to comply.

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
G&M wrote:

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:57:48 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:

As far as I'm aware unless it's TRADA stamped your friendly BCO will
tell
you to take it down.

No. Or at least, only if the architect has called for some particular
grading. There's no general rule thgat says ungraded timber can't be
used for building work.

Okay. Here's my reasoning. Compliance with the Construction Products
Directive (CPD) is mandatory for all items of construction which are
snip
In any case CE marking of constructional materials will become mandatory
in
due course so unless you cut the tree down and prepare it yourself I
don't
see how one can use ungraded wood after that. That doesn't mean that
'green' oak can't be used, just that it has to be checked it complies
with
some standard.

AIUI, (though I am coming at this from the electronics side) it's
perfectly legal to CE mark the stuff yourself, you only get into trouble
if it's later found not to comply.

I'm actually on the electronics side myself and unless you have some pretty
major levels of indemity insurance I wouldn't recommend this route.

G&M wrote:

I'm actually on the electronics side myself and unless you have some pretty
major levels of indemity insurance I wouldn't recommend this route.


Isn't it the traditional British builder way of operating?! Helps not
to have any assets though!

Re electronics, I can remember one case where the UL approval inspector
went through the Taiwan factory and found one of the supervisors
practicing forging his signature on the duplicate forms!!


Regards
Capitol

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


G&M wrote:

I'm actually on the electronics side myself and unless you have some
pretty
major levels of indemity insurance I wouldn't recommend this route.


Isn't it the traditional British builder way of operating?! Helps not
to have any assets though!

Re electronics, I can remember one case where the UL approval inspector
went through the Taiwan factory and found one of the supervisors
practicing forging his signature on the duplicate forms!!


Sounds right. Used China for building a product some time ago. Provided a
BOM with approved parts on and prototypes came through okay-ish after two
trips there. But as soon as they had free rein we got all sorts of crap
back.

G&M wrote:

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
G&M wrote:

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:57:48 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:

As far as I'm aware unless it's TRADA stamped your friendly BCO will
tell
you to take it down.

No. Or at least, only if the architect has called for some particular
grading. There's no general rule thgat says ungraded timber can't be
used for building work.

Okay. Here's my reasoning. Compliance with the Construction Products
Directive (CPD) is mandatory for all items of construction which are
snip
In any case CE marking of constructional materials will become mandatory
in
due course so unless you cut the tree down and prepare it yourself I
don't
see how one can use ungraded wood after that. That doesn't mean that
'green' oak can't be used, just that it has to be checked it complies
with
some standard.

AIUI, (though I am coming at this from the electronics side) it's
perfectly legal to CE mark the stuff yourself, you only get into trouble
if it's later found not to comply.

I'm actually on the electronics side myself and unless you have some pretty
major levels of indemity insurance I wouldn't recommend this route.

Only if you're sure it does comply of course, or at the very least, you
should be able to make a case that it does.