|
Grading Wood
Knowledgable People
My build progresses, we are now in the process of ordering the timber, and as normal the location issue makes life hard. I have a neighbour with a portable log saw, who can cut trees down to any size joists and planks, and we have a good supply of trees from the local managed forrests. He can also deliver by tractor, wich helps somewhat. The engineer has specifed D30 Grade for the Oak, and C16 for the other timbers. Unfortunatly wood from my neighbour is ungraded, and Mr Building Inspector could well get upset at this. All the C16 timer in the wood yards is ugly, mine will be on show, so I would like some nice looking wood, Douglas Fir is favorite right now. I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist, it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person. The current plan is to find a suitable "skilled person" and pay him/her to trundle on out to my house and grade my wood. Where would I go to find such a person, I have been to 3 saw mills in my area, none of them can grade wood, do I just keep expanding my search ? Am I missing something obvious ? Thanks Rick |
Rick Dipper wrote:
I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist, it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person. Not very difficult, Used to be part of good civil engineering courses. Try http://www.trada.co.uk/services/4106...r_grading.html Regards Capitol |
Rick Dipper wrote:
I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist, it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person. Sounds like you just need a C16 stamp and some ink! If finding somone who can visually grade the timber is that hard, chances are the BCO will not have a clue either! ;-) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 06:47:06 +0100, John Rumm
wrote: Rick Dipper wrote: I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist, it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person. Sounds like you just need a C16 stamp and some ink! If finding somone who can visually grade the timber is that hard, chances are the BCO will not have a clue either! ;-) Top Quality Idea - job sorted. Rick |
"Rick Dipper" wrote in message ... Knowledgable People My build progresses, we are now in the process of ordering the timber, and as normal the location issue makes life hard. I have a neighbour with a portable log saw, who can cut trees down to any size joists and planks, and we have a good supply of trees from the local managed forrests. He can also deliver by tractor, wich helps somewhat. The engineer has specifed D30 Grade for the Oak, and C16 for the other timbers. Unfortunatly wood from my neighbour is ungraded, and Mr Building Inspector could well get upset at this. All the C16 timer in the wood yards is ugly, mine will be on show, so I would like some nice looking wood, Douglas Fir is favorite right now. I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist, it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person. The current plan is to find a suitable "skilled person" and pay him/her to trundle on out to my house and grade my wood. Where would I go to find such a person, I have been to 3 saw mills in my area, none of them can grade wood, do I just keep expanding my search ? Am I missing something obvious ? Graded wood must now be kiln dried in an approved kiln. Without that your friend's wood is unusable in construction - no ifs, maybes or workarounds. |
On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 21:02:36 +0100, "G&M"
wrote: "Rick Dipper" wrote in message .. . Knowledgable People My build progresses, we are now in the process of ordering the timber, and as normal the location issue makes life hard. I have a neighbour with a portable log saw, who can cut trees down to any size joists and planks, and we have a good supply of trees from the local managed forrests. He can also deliver by tractor, wich helps somewhat. The engineer has specifed D30 Grade for the Oak, and C16 for the other timbers. Unfortunatly wood from my neighbour is ungraded, and Mr Building Inspector could well get upset at this. All the C16 timer in the wood yards is ugly, mine will be on show, so I would like some nice looking wood, Douglas Fir is favorite right now. I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist, it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person. The current plan is to find a suitable "skilled person" and pay him/her to trundle on out to my house and grade my wood. Where would I go to find such a person, I have been to 3 saw mills in my area, none of them can grade wood, do I just keep expanding my search ? Am I missing something obvious ? Graded wood must now be kiln dried in an approved kiln. Without that your friend's wood is unusable in construction - no ifs, maybes or workarounds. I assume that making your own approved kiln is expenive, not beacuse of the construction (most I have seem are old containers) but for the approval certificate. So its another example of new regulations forcing me to support the exploition of eastun europe, who sell their achient forrests real cheep with a grading stamp on, insted of supporting the local rural economey. It a wonder my main house is still standing, with no foundations, no waterproofers, no pea shingle, and no grading of the wood when the chopped the tress to clear the site. And of cource all the middle men in the CEE wood make it 3 times the price of the local stuff. This is quite upsetting for me, all of the basic house materials are local, wall stone (picked off the land), slate (40 miles to the quarry) cement (works is 15 miles away), bricks, labour. The wood will come from the other side of europe. Rick |
Rick Dipper wrote:
This is quite upsetting for me, all of the basic house materials are local, wall stone (picked off the land), slate (40 miles to the quarry) cement (works is 15 miles away), bricks, labour. The wood will come from the other side of europe. Surely there must be someone reasonably local with a certified kiln? I didn't know about this kiln certification business until I read this thread, but I do know there are two yards within a 40mile drive of me who bake their own C16 stamped timber. -- Grunff |
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 23:30:56 +0100, Grunff wrote:
Rick Dipper wrote: This is quite upsetting for me, all of the basic house materials are local, wall stone (picked off the land), slate (40 miles to the quarry) cement (works is 15 miles away), bricks, labour. The wood will come from the other side of europe. Surely there must be someone reasonably local with a certified kiln? I didn't know about this kiln certification business until I read this thread, but I do know there are two yards within a 40mile drive of me who bake their own C16 stamped timber. That will be my next line of investigation. My neighbour charges 1/3 of even the cheepest graded timber I can find on line, so I can afford quite a bit of expence in drying/grading. His random oa flooring is arround 5.50 a square meter, its unfinished, but you can buy a really good sander with the money you save. If you are neer chester/shrewsbury, maybe you can let me know who the yards are. Thanks Rick |
Rick Dipper wrote:
His random oa flooring is arround 5.50 a square meter, its unfinished, but you can buy a really good sander with the money you save. Wow! There's a price you don't come across very often! If you are neer chester/shrewsbury, maybe you can let me know who the yards are. I'm in Devon. Good luck - there's bound to be somewhere within ~60 miles of you. -- Grunff |
"Steve Firth" wrote in message ... G&M wrote: Graded wood must now be kiln dried in an approved kiln. Without that your friend's wood is unusable in construction - no ifs, maybes or workarounds. Christ on a bike, another pile of stupid legislation. fx: stares around house Yup, completely timber framed, none of it kiln dried and it's lasted over 300 years so far. About time you bulldozed it then. |
On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 21:02:36 +0100, "G&M"
wrote: Graded wood must now be kiln dried in an approved kiln. Without that your friend's wood is unusable in construction - no ifs, maybes or workarounds. ********. Graded wood, particularly for oak, is entirely inappropriate for high-end work, except for a few purposes involving glulam and structural beams. You're better off with air-dried than kiln-dried, but the regulations don't recognise anything other than McTimber that's shoved through a kiln in the vain and pointless hope of turning it into a homogeneous and consistent material. Timber isn't consistent - get over it, and train some vaguely carpenters who can deal with it as it is. For construction, then don't forget green timber. So long as you have a competent framer than you can build with this stuff when it had leaves on a month earlier. -- Smert' spamionam |
Rick Dipper wrote:
The engineer has specifed D30 Grade for the Oak, and C16 for the other timbers. Unfortunatly wood from my neighbour is ungraded, and Mr Building Inspector could well get upset at this. Could you not get the engineer to redo calcs without using C16? They seem to quite often specify timber grades even when they aren't actually necessary. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Could you not get the engineer to redo calcs without using C16? They
seem to quite often specify timber grades even when they aren't actually necessary. Yes this is the way to go I think. I had some oak soleplate replaced this summer with new air dried local oak and the building inspector wasn't at all interested in numbers like C16 Mind you my supplier charges more than 5.50 a square meter for oak flooring. Drool Anna ~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England |""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs / ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc |____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642 |
Rick Dipper wrote in message . ..
Knowledgable People My build progresses, we are now in the process of ordering the timber, and as normal the location issue makes life hard. I have a neighbour with a portable log saw, who can cut trees down to any size joists and planks, and we have a good supply of trees from the local managed forrests. He can also deliver by tractor, wich helps somewhat. The engineer has specifed D30 Grade for the Oak, and C16 for the other timbers. Unfortunatly wood from my neighbour is ungraded, and Mr Building Inspector could well get upset at this. All the C16 timer in the wood yards is ugly, mine will be on show, so I would like some nice looking wood, Douglas Fir is favorite right now. I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist, it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person. The current plan is to find a suitable "skilled person" and pay him/her to trundle on out to my house and grade my wood. Where would I go to find such a person, I have been to 3 saw mills in my area, none of them can grade wood, do I just keep expanding my search ? Am I missing something obvious ? Thanks Rick Hutton & Ross (Handr.co.uk - I think) can site grade your timber for you. As for missing something. Does the fact that green timber changes its characteristics somewhat as it's drying out not affect your project? I know green oak is often used, but green softwood???? Xav |
You're better off with air-dried than kiln-dried, but the regulations don't recognise anything other than McTimber that's shoved through a kiln in the vain and pointless hope of turning it into a homogeneous and consistent material. I think a single kilning at source works fine, even below "air dry". The problems arise with secondary kilning when timber is dried once for shipping, and then again by McTimber to quickly comply with some regulation or another. |
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message ... On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 21:02:36 +0100, "G&M" wrote: Graded wood must now be kiln dried in an approved kiln. Without that your friend's wood is unusable in construction - no ifs, maybes or workarounds. ********. Graded wood, particularly for oak, is entirely inappropriate for high-end work, except for a few purposes involving glulam and structural beams. You're better off with air-dried than kiln-dried, but the regulations don't recognise anything other than McTimber that's shoved through a kiln in the vain and pointless hope of turning it into a homogeneous and consistent material. Timber isn't consistent - get over it, and train some vaguely carpenters who can deal with it as it is. For construction, then don't forget green timber. So long as you have a competent framer than you can build with this stuff when it had leaves on a month earlier. As far as I'm aware unless it's TRADA stamped your friendly BCO will tell you to take it down. I really suggest the OP discusses this with him to ask his opinion on whether the wood you have is suitable or not. |
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 22:22:40 GMT, Rick Dipper
wrote: I assume that making your own approved kiln is expenive, not beacuse of the construction (most I have seem are old containers) but for the approval certificate. Hi, Try ringing around and seeing how much will be charged for kiln drying, or whether it's possible to redesign for non graded wood. This is quite upsetting for me, all of the basic house materials are local, wall stone (picked off the land), slate (40 miles to the quarry) cement (works is 15 miles away), bricks, labour. The wood will If you can get it kiln dried locally there is no problem. If you were the architect would you accept liability for using non graded wood when the design required graded? cheers, Pete. |
In article ,
John Rumm wrote: Could you not get the engineer to redo calcs without using C16? They seem to quite often specify timber grades even when they aren't actually necessary. C16 is ordinary structural softwood. A piece of timber that wouldn't get graded as such would be rejected by any carpenter that knows his job. -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm |
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:57:48 +0100, "G&M"
wrote: As far as I'm aware unless it's TRADA stamped your friendly BCO will tell you to take it down. No. Or at least, only if the architect has called for some particular grading. There's no general rule thgat says ungraded timber can't be used for building work. Grading is by and large a sign of _inferior_ timber. What it's for is to allow unskilled chippies to slap things together "by the numbers" without they themselves having to understand timber. If you follow the gradings, nothing too bad ought to fall down. For low-end work, grading is entirely appropriate. And I hope never to live in another house built from pre-fab roof trusses and nail plates! At the high-end though, grading is irrelevant and inappropriate. It's the _carpenter's_ job to understand the timber they're working with, and to build competently with it. Unfortunately there's a shortage of such good people, and at £7.50/hour for timber framers then there's hardly any incentive for anyone to go into this field. -- Smert' spamionam |
G&M wrote:
"Rick Dipper" wrote in message ... Knowledgable People My build progresses, we are now in the process of ordering the timber, and as normal the location issue makes life hard. I have a neighbour with a portable log saw, who can cut trees down to any size joists and planks, and we have a good supply of trees from the local managed forrests. He can also deliver by tractor, wich helps somewhat. The engineer has specifed D30 Grade for the Oak, and C16 for the other timbers. Unfortunatly wood from my neighbour is ungraded, and Mr Building Inspector could well get upset at this. All the C16 timer in the wood yards is ugly, mine will be on show, so I would like some nice looking wood, Douglas Fir is favorite right now. I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist, it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person. The current plan is to find a suitable "skilled person" and pay him/her to trundle on out to my house and grade my wood. Where would I go to find such a person, I have been to 3 saw mills in my area, none of them can grade wood, do I just keep expanding my search ? Am I missing something obvious ? Graded wood must now be kiln dried in an approved kiln. Without that your friend's wood is unusable in construction - no ifs, maybes or workarounds. ********. I have a new house made of green oak, Never been near a kiln. BCO was fine with it. |
xavier wrote:
Rick Dipper wrote in message . .. Knowledgable People My build progresses, we are now in the process of ordering the timber, and as normal the location issue makes life hard. I have a neighbour with a portable log saw, who can cut trees down to any size joists and planks, and we have a good supply of trees from the local managed forrests. He can also deliver by tractor, wich helps somewhat. The engineer has specifed D30 Grade for the Oak, and C16 for the other timbers. Unfortunatly wood from my neighbour is ungraded, and Mr Building Inspector could well get upset at this. All the C16 timer in the wood yards is ugly, mine will be on show, so I would like some nice looking wood, Douglas Fir is favorite right now. I have looked for an idiots guide to grading, and one does not exist, it appears that wood is "visually graded" by a "skilled" person. The current plan is to find a suitable "skilled person" and pay him/her to trundle on out to my house and grade my wood. Where would I go to find such a person, I have been to 3 saw mills in my area, none of them can grade wood, do I just keep expanding my search ? Am I missing something obvious ? Thanks Rick Hutton & Ross (Handr.co.uk - I think) can site grade your timber for you. As for missing something. Does the fact that green timber changes its characteristics somewhat as it's drying out not affect your project? I know green oak is often used, but green softwood???? Its not much worse on shrinkage really. 10% across the grain and 1% along it is average for any wood. Xav |
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:57:48 +0100, "G&M" wrote: As far as I'm aware unless it's TRADA stamped your friendly BCO will tell you to take it down. No. Or at least, only if the architect has called for some particular grading. There's no general rule thgat says ungraded timber can't be used for building work. Grading is by and large a sign of _inferior_ timber. What it's for is to allow unskilled chippies to slap things together "by the numbers" without they themselves having to understand timber. If you follow the gradings, nothing too bad ought to fall down. For low-end work, grading is entirely appropriate. And I hope never to live in another house built from pre-fab roof trusses and nail plates! At the high-end though, grading is irrelevant and inappropriate. It's the _carpenter's_ job to understand the timber they're working with, and to build competently with it. Unfortunately there's a shortage of such good people, and at £7.50/hour for timber framers then there's hardly any incentive for anyone to go into this field. My chippies charge twice that, plus VAT, and are in great demand. BTW I trotally agree with you about BCO etc. The BCO will reject anything obviosuly suspect, but will be totally happy with over engieered green wood beams, as long as he feels you and the carpenters understand the shrinkage implications. I have had EXTREME problems in one area where I used a kiln dried and outdoor treated bit of wood. The bugger has EXPANDED on me. INDOORS!!! |
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:11:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote: Unfortunately there's a shortage of such good people, and at £7.50/hour for timber framers then there's hardly any incentive for anyone to go into this field. My chippies charge twice that, plus VAT, and are in great demand. Then that's very cheap and you should snap them up. The 7.50 is what experienced framers are _paid_ by one well-known framing outfit. They charge them out at twenty-something. Unless you're running your own business though (and many people just don't want to do this), then you're earning twenty and getting paid seven. I have had EXTREME problems in one area where I used a kiln dried and outdoor treated bit of wood. The bugger has EXPANDED on me. INDOORS!!! What else can it do ? Timber doesn't just "shrink" on seasoning in some asymmetric and irreversible manner, it pumps in and out with changes in moisture in either direction (after a few years it setles down a bit) -- Smert' spamionam |
|
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message ... On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:57:48 +0100, "G&M" wrote: As far as I'm aware unless it's TRADA stamped your friendly BCO will tell you to take it down. No. Or at least, only if the architect has called for some particular grading. There's no general rule thgat says ungraded timber can't be used for building work. Okay. Here's my reasoning. Compliance with the Construction Products Directive (CPD) is mandatory for all items of construction which are 'intended to be incorporated permanently in the works', i.e. building or structure. BM TRADA is the only authority I am aware in the UK who can give this compliance, though of course there are others in other EU countries. In any case CE marking of constructional materials will become mandatory in due course so unless you cut the tree down and prepare it yourself I don't see how one can use ungraded wood after that. That doesn't mean that 'green' oak can't be used, just that it has to be checked it complies with some standard. At the high-end though, grading is irrelevant and inappropriate. It's the _carpenter's_ job to understand the timber they're working with, and to build competently with it. Agreed - but EU rules generally don't assume best practices :-) |
G&M wrote:
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message ... On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:57:48 +0100, "G&M" wrote: As far as I'm aware unless it's TRADA stamped your friendly BCO will tell you to take it down. No. Or at least, only if the architect has called for some particular grading. There's no general rule thgat says ungraded timber can't be used for building work. Okay. Here's my reasoning. Compliance with the Construction Products Directive (CPD) is mandatory for all items of construction which are snip In any case CE marking of constructional materials will become mandatory in due course so unless you cut the tree down and prepare it yourself I don't see how one can use ungraded wood after that. That doesn't mean that 'green' oak can't be used, just that it has to be checked it complies with some standard. AIUI, (though I am coming at this from the electronics side) it's perfectly legal to CE mark the stuff yourself, you only get into trouble if it's later found not to comply. |
"Ian Stirling" wrote in message ... G&M wrote: "Andy Dingley" wrote in message ... On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:57:48 +0100, "G&M" wrote: As far as I'm aware unless it's TRADA stamped your friendly BCO will tell you to take it down. No. Or at least, only if the architect has called for some particular grading. There's no general rule thgat says ungraded timber can't be used for building work. Okay. Here's my reasoning. Compliance with the Construction Products Directive (CPD) is mandatory for all items of construction which are snip In any case CE marking of constructional materials will become mandatory in due course so unless you cut the tree down and prepare it yourself I don't see how one can use ungraded wood after that. That doesn't mean that 'green' oak can't be used, just that it has to be checked it complies with some standard. AIUI, (though I am coming at this from the electronics side) it's perfectly legal to CE mark the stuff yourself, you only get into trouble if it's later found not to comply. I'm actually on the electronics side myself and unless you have some pretty major levels of indemity insurance I wouldn't recommend this route. |
G&M wrote: I'm actually on the electronics side myself and unless you have some pretty major levels of indemity insurance I wouldn't recommend this route. Isn't it the traditional British builder way of operating?! Helps not to have any assets though! Re electronics, I can remember one case where the UL approval inspector went through the Taiwan factory and found one of the supervisors practicing forging his signature on the duplicate forms!! Regards Capitol |
"Capitol" wrote in message ... G&M wrote: I'm actually on the electronics side myself and unless you have some pretty major levels of indemity insurance I wouldn't recommend this route. Isn't it the traditional British builder way of operating?! Helps not to have any assets though! Re electronics, I can remember one case where the UL approval inspector went through the Taiwan factory and found one of the supervisors practicing forging his signature on the duplicate forms!! Sounds right. Used China for building a product some time ago. Provided a BOM with approved parts on and prototypes came through okay-ish after two trips there. But as soon as they had free rein we got all sorts of crap back. |
G&M wrote:
"Ian Stirling" wrote in message ... G&M wrote: "Andy Dingley" wrote in message ... On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:57:48 +0100, "G&M" wrote: As far as I'm aware unless it's TRADA stamped your friendly BCO will tell you to take it down. No. Or at least, only if the architect has called for some particular grading. There's no general rule thgat says ungraded timber can't be used for building work. Okay. Here's my reasoning. Compliance with the Construction Products Directive (CPD) is mandatory for all items of construction which are snip In any case CE marking of constructional materials will become mandatory in due course so unless you cut the tree down and prepare it yourself I don't see how one can use ungraded wood after that. That doesn't mean that 'green' oak can't be used, just that it has to be checked it complies with some standard. AIUI, (though I am coming at this from the electronics side) it's perfectly legal to CE mark the stuff yourself, you only get into trouble if it's later found not to comply. I'm actually on the electronics side myself and unless you have some pretty major levels of indemity insurance I wouldn't recommend this route. Only if you're sure it does comply of course, or at the very least, you should be able to make a case that it does. |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:22 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 DIYbanter