My tame CORGI guy was extolling the virtues of using Flexy connectors
when connecting baths & sinks - i.e. connect them to the appliance
first - fit appliance then connect up the flex pipe with ease.

I have always done this the hard way with copper(or Hep20) pipe -
anybody any views on these - do they last ? are they durable etc.


Rick

p.s. this is the same CORGI guy who on commissioning my boiler looked
for a gas leak with his cigarette lighter .... and when the small puff
of blue flame appeared stated – see that's how it's done !

the only problems are on thin stainles steel sinks,they do not give any
rigidity to the installtion.the way that hard copper does,the same goes for
acryic baths with victorian type bath mixer.

I have always done this the hard way with copper(or Hep20) pipe -
anybody any views on these - do they last ? are they durable etc.

They're fine, but ugly, and sometimes (but rarely) suffer from noise issues
on mains pressure systems. I had to replace a flexible hose I used on my
(cold mains) bath tap with copper, as it caused the entire system to buzz
like crazy at random for a couple of minutes at a time. A water hammer
arrester might have cured it, but I couldn't find a supplier and had the
copper already.

Christian.

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:56:02 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

I have always done this the hard way with copper(or Hep20) pipe -
anybody any views on these - do they last ? are they durable etc.

They're fine, but ugly, and sometimes (but rarely) suffer from noise issues
on mains pressure systems. I had to replace a flexible hose I used on my
(cold mains) bath tap with copper, as it caused the entire system to buzz
like crazy at random for a couple of minutes at a time. A water hammer
arrester might have cured it, but I couldn't find a supplier and had the
copper already.

Christian.

BES have shock arresters for future reference....


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

BES have shock arresters for future reference....

Yeah. I spotted them a few months back. The plumbing merchants didn't have a
clue what I was asking for, by name or description.

Christian.

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:49:34 +0000 (UTC), "Alex"
wrote:

the only problems are on thin stainles steel sinks,they do not give any
rigidity to the installtion.

Yup second that. I had a very cheap b+q stainless sink with such a
flexi pipe arrangement and the taps moved alot

C

On 16 Mar 2004 08:45:05 -0800, (Rick) wrote:

My tame CORGI guy was extolling the virtues of using Flexy connectors
when connecting baths & sinks - i.e. connect them to the appliance
first - fit appliance then connect up the flex pipe with ease.

I have always done this the hard way with copper(or Hep20) pipe -
anybody any views on these - do they last ? are they durable etc.

I use flexies all the time now - much easier to install than cutting
copper (or plastic) to the required length! Though I have to say that
the latter is probably a skill that you pick up.

These things are a huge bonus for bath taps where you have limited
room in the tap area. Focus DIY in Bracknell sell some long versions
of these flexies (nylon covered) which means you can bring the
connections to the 22mm supply pipes away from the bath to somewhere
easy to grapple with. I think those long flexies are something like
18in in length.

The only issue to be careful of from my experience is that the flexy
must not kink, and when tightening up you have to ensure that there is
no twist stress placed on the flexy.

PoP

---
If you need to contact me please submit your comments
via the web form at http://www.anyoldtripe.co.uk. I'll
probably still ignore you but at least I'll get the
message.....

PoP wrote:
On 16 Mar 2004 08:45:05 -0800, (Rick) wrote:

My tame CORGI guy was extolling the virtues of using Flexy connectors
when connecting baths & sinks - i.e. connect them to the appliance
first - fit appliance then connect up the flex pipe with ease.

I have always done this the hard way with copper(or Hep20) pipe -
anybody any views on these - do they last ? are they durable etc.

I use flexies all the time now - much easier to install than cutting
copper (or plastic) to the required length! Though I have to say that
the latter is probably a skill that you pick up.

These things are a huge bonus for bath taps where you have limited
room in the tap area. Focus DIY in Bracknell sell some long versions
of these flexies (nylon covered) which means you can bring the
connections to the 22mm supply pipes away from the bath to somewhere
easy to grapple with. I think those long flexies are something like
18in in length.

The only issue to be careful of from my experience is that the flexy
must not kink, and when tightening up you have to ensure that there is
no twist stress placed on the flexy.

PoP
They can limit flow, especially noticeable with gravity fed systems on the
first floor.

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:01:28 -0000, "BillV"
wrote:

They can limit flow, especially noticeable with gravity fed systems on the
first floor.

True - I had overlooked to mention that.

PoP

---
If you need to contact me please submit your comments
via the web form at http://www.anyoldtripe.co.uk. I'll
probably still ignore you but at least I'll get the
message.....

(Rick) wrote:

Hello Rick

R| My tame CORGI guy was extolling the virtues of using Flexy
R| connectors when connecting baths & sinks - i.e. connect them
R| to the appliance first - fit appliance then connect up the
R| flex pipe with ease.

They're ok. I prefer pushfit though. Can just push the pipe in once
the thing's fixed. Plastic or copper cupro if it's on show. Cupro's a
******* to release though.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:37:40 GMT, (Simon
Avery) wrote:

They're ok. I prefer pushfit though. Can just push the pipe in once
the thing's fixed. Plastic or copper cupro if it's on show. Cupro's a
******* to release though.

Don't laugh. For the first time ever I used pushfit last week. I've
always been a copper man myself, and this new fangled plasticy stuff
didn't appeal to me. I felt it couldn't possibly be capable of
replacing copper - not the plastic piping, but the joints - how could
a push fitting possibly be strong enough and secure enough to not
cause flooding?

It has to be said that I'm still not a plastic convert, but at least
I've broken the ice, and from here on will be less inclined to ignore
pushfit.

Just trying to get to grips with the various different types of
pushfit fittings now!

PoP

---
If you need to contact me please submit your comments
via the web form at http://www.anyoldtripe.co.uk. I'll
probably still ignore you but at least I'll get the
message.....

PoP wrote:

Hello PoP

P| It has to be said that I'm still not a plastic convert, but
P| at least I've broken the ice, and from here on will be less
P| inclined to ignore pushfit.

I think it's wizzy!

Seriously. Solder just annoys the hell outta me and is a fire risk.
Compression is Ok, but tends to leak. Pushfit just, well, works.

I've replumbed pretty much my whole house this year (was only going to
do the bathroom, but took the opportunity to replace various crap bits
whilst I was there). Most of it now in speedfit fittings and pipe. The
pipe especially is a major plus for running under the floor. Five
minutes to lay pipe from one end of the house to the other, with two
boards up. Ace!

I had one plastic joint that weeped because I hadn't pushed the pipe
in far enough. One existing end-feed solder fitting broke when I
nudged the pipe because it hadn't been soldered cleanly, and numerous
compressions leaked.

Some folks mutter about the cost of plastic fittings, but I don't
think it's much more expensive considering that with the plastic pipe
you need far, far fewer fittings on a typical install. Much faster
too. Snip with secateurs (they work great for 15 and 22mm, you don't
need the special cutters), insert liner, push into fitting - perfect
joint in under 5 seconds every time. A really good DIY product.

That said, some of the plastic fittings aren't as good as Speedfit or
Hep20, I don't know if I'd trust them as much.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

Some folks mutter about the cost of plastic fittings, but I don't
think it's much more expensive considering that with the plastic pipe
you need far, far fewer fittings on a typical install.

The push fits are very expensive, though. I ended up using cheap bulk packs
of 22mm straight compressions on plastic pipe after I used up my supply.

Christian.

"Simon Avery" wrote in message
...
PoP wrote:

Hello PoP

P| It has to be said that I'm still not a plastic convert, but
P| at least I've broken the ice, and from here on will be less
P| inclined to ignore pushfit.

I think it's wizzy!

Seriously. Solder just annoys the hell outta me and is a fire risk.
Compression is Ok, but tends to leak. Pushfit just, well, works.

I've replumbed pretty much my whole house this year (was only going to
do the bathroom, but took the opportunity to replace various crap bits
whilst I was there). Most of it now in speedfit fittings and pipe. The
pipe especially is a major plus for running under the floor. Five
minutes to lay pipe from one end of the house to the other, with two
boards up. Ace!

So this pipe is unlagged and laying on the bottom of a floor void?

I had one plastic joint that weeped because I hadn't pushed the pipe
in far enough. One existing end-feed solder fitting broke when I
nudged the pipe because it hadn't been soldered cleanly, and numerous
compressions leaked.

That is because you can't do soldered joints and used cheap compression
joints.

Some folks mutter about the cost of plastic fittings, but I don't
think it's much more expensive considering that with the plastic pipe
you need far, far fewer fittings on a typical install. Much faster
too.

Well when you have the pipe laying on the bottom of a floor void.

Snip with secateurs (they work great for 15 and 22mm, you don't
need the special cutters), insert liner, push into fitting - perfect
joint in under 5 seconds every time. A really good DIY product.

That said, some of the plastic fittings aren't as good as Speedfit or
Hep20, I don't know if I'd trust them as much.

Speedfit are way down the list of fittings, as they are all plastic with
plastic inserts. Marley equator and Osma Gold are better.

This sort of piping is banned in the USA because of catastrophic failures.

http://www.polybutylene.com/poly.html

PoP wrote .
(Simon Avery) wrote:

They're ok. I prefer pushfit though. Can just push the pipe in once
the thing's fixed. Plastic or copper cupro if it's on show. Cupro's a
******* to release though.

Don't laugh. For the first time ever I used pushfit last week.

Yup, me too, I decided I couldn't ignore it anymore so I broke the ice
with a bit of pushfit on copper pipes behind the new kitchen units. At
least if one lets go it's fairly easy to get at to replace rather than
being under a floorboard somewhere.

... I felt it couldn't possibly be capable of replacing copper - not the
plastic piping, but the joints - how could a push fitting possibly be strong
enough and secure enough to not cause flooding?

I clipped the runs to the wall in the usual way, making sure the
elbows couldn't flex. Not using poly pipe just yet ....

It has to be said that I'm still not a plastic convert, but at least
I've broken the ice, and from here on will be less inclined to ignore
pushfit.

Indeed, i'm just dipping a toe too by trying out the joints. Kitchen
is still dry, so i'm not going to demonise pushfit just yet ...

Cheers,

Paul.

"Zymurgy" wrote in message
om...
PoP wrote .
(Simon Avery) wrote:

They're ok. I prefer pushfit though. Can just push the pipe in once
the thing's fixed. Plastic or copper cupro if it's on show. Cupro's a
******* to release though.

Don't laugh. For the first time ever I used pushfit last week.

Yup, me too, I decided I couldn't ignore it anymore so I broke the ice
with a bit of pushfit on copper pipes behind the new kitchen units. At
least if one lets go it's fairly easy to get at to replace rather than
being under a floorboard somewhere.

... I felt it couldn't possibly be capable of replacing copper - not the
plastic piping, but the joints - how could a push fitting possibly be
strong
enough and secure enough to not cause flooding?

I clipped the runs to the wall in the usual way, making sure the
elbows couldn't flex. Not using poly pipe just yet ....

It has to be said that I'm still not a plastic convert, but at least
I've broken the ice, and from here on will be less inclined to ignore
pushfit.

Indeed, i'm just dipping a toe too by trying out the joints. Kitchen
is still dry, so i'm not going to demonise pushfit just yet ...

This sort of piping is banned in the USA because of catastrophic failures.

http://www.polybutylene.com/poly.html

This sort of piping is banned in the USA because of catastrophic failures.
http://www.polybutylene.com/poly.html

No, that's polybutylene. That is a totally different plastic, normally
terminated with crimp fittings. It is completely different from what we use,
which is polyethylene with pushfit or compression jointing. They call our
polyethylene/MDPE pipe PEX over there. It is widely used, but not as widely
as over here. They still use the crimp fittings, though.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
This sort of piping is banned in the USA because of catastrophic
failures.
http://www.polybutylene.com/poly.html

No, that's polybutylene. That is a totally different
plastic, normally terminated with crimp fittings.
It is completely different from what we use,
which is polyethylene with pushfit or compression
jointing. They call our polyethylene/MDPE pipe PEX
over there. It is widely used, but not as widely
as over here. They still use the crimp fittings, though.

Christian.

Go to the web sites of the main players of plastic pipe fittings in the UK.
Hepworth for e.g. Do a search on "polybutylene", and lots comes up. From
the Hepwroth web site:
"Hepworth Underfloor Heating Pipe is manufactured principally from
polybutylene"

Go to the web sites of the main players of plastic pipe fittings in the
UK.

I hadn't realised that Hep20 was PB. A quick browse shows:

Hep20 = PB
Speedfit = PEX
Marley Equator = PEX
Polyplumb = PB

I wonder if the PB using manufacturers know about the US liability issues?
I'll certainly be keeping to the PEX versions, myself.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
Go to the web sites of the main players of plastic pipe fittings in the
UK.

I hadn't realised that Hep20 was PB. A quick browse shows:

Hep20 = PB
Speedfit = PEX
Marley Equator = PEX
Polyplumb = PB

I wonder if the PB using manufacturers know about the US liability issues?

Of course they do. No one uses it in the USA.

I'll certainly be keeping to the PEX versions, myself.

Christian.

IMM wrote in message ...
This sort of piping is banned in the USA because of catastrophic failures.

http://www.polybutylene.com/poly.html



I'd be very wary of plastic piping. I've found that all my 100mm grey,
external waste pipe connecting joints which are exposed to sunlight have
broken up after 20 years exposure and will have to be replaced. My external
brown polyethylene(?) waste pipe used as sleeving for the shed supply has
also deteriorated badly over 25 years and needs replacing. I suspect that to
ensure long term reliability a much greater wall thickness will be required
than is currently used.
Just an opinion.

Regards
Capitol

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
Go to the web sites of the main players of plastic pipe fittings in the
UK.

I hadn't realised that Hep20 was PB. A quick browse shows:

Hep20 = PB
Speedfit = PEX
Marley Equator = PEX
Polyplumb = PB

I wonder if the PB using manufacturers know about the US liability issues?
I'll certainly be keeping to the PEX versions, myself.

Christian.


The problems in the USA with Polybutylene (PB) were generally installation,
not PB related. As the major UK manufacturer of Polybutylene plumbing
systems Hepworth Plumbing Products take a great interest in this matter, and
in over 25 years of manufacturing and selling Hep2O & Acorn, we have not
seen any of the problems experienced in the USA.



Failures in the USA associated with polybutylene were extensively on large
diameter cold-water installations. Independent assessment concluded that
such failures were related to metal fittings and incorrect installations
rather than pipe performance.



Other failures of polybutylene systems were due either to the use of acetal
fittings that degraded rapidly in contact with water, or with crimp type
fittings that failed many months after the installation of the system.



A very small number of Polybutylene system failures were on hot water
services. All failures recorded were in ringmain installations, operating
at a temperature of 70-80 deg C. Such installations are not often
encountered in the UK. Advice on the use of Hep2O in ringmain systems is
given in the Hep2O Installer Guide.



The only common factor between the failures in the USA and Hep2O is
Polybutylene, which has not, however, been identified as the cause of system
failure.



Hep2O is Kitemarked to BS 7291 and guaranteed for 50 years against defects
in materials or manufacturing. Hep2O has a design life expectancy of over
50 years based upon the operating parameters as shown in the following
table: -



Peak Life Cycle Operating Temp/Pressure

Temperature Deg C 20 40 60 80 95

Safe Pressure-Bar 12 11 9 7 6



In addition Hep2O will withstand short malfunction at 114 Deg C at 3 Bar


Hep2O was first sold over twenty-five years ago (then known as Acorn) and
has been successfully used in many hundreds of thousands of central heating
and domestic water distribution installation since then. There have been no
reported failures of Hep2O in the manner seen in the USA in this time.



The Hepworth Plumbing Products Team

--

Tel: +44 (0)1709 856 300 |Hepworth Plumbing Products

Fax: +44 (0)1709 856 301 |Edlington Lane, Edlington

Email: |Doncaster, UK

http://www.hepworthplumbing.co.uk |DN12 1BY

The problems in the USA with Polybutylene (PB) were generally
installation,
not PB related. As the major UK manufacturer of Polybutylene plumbing
systems Hepworth Plumbing Products take a great interest in this matter,
and
in over 25 years of manufacturing and selling Hep2O & Acorn, we have not
seen any of the problems experienced in the USA.

Phew, that's OK then! I never did like the look of those horrible US crimp
connections, which they still seem to use on PEX.

Independent assessment concluded that such failures were related to
metal fittings and incorrect installations rather than pipe performance.

Are compression joints (i.e. metal fittings) OK for long term use, too?

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
The problems in the USA with Polybutylene (PB) were generally
installation,
not PB related. As the major UK manufacturer of Polybutylene plumbing
systems Hepworth Plumbing Products take a great interest in this matter,
and
in over 25 years of manufacturing and selling Hep2O & Acorn, we have not
seen any of the problems experienced in the USA.

Phew, that's OK then! I never did like the look of those horrible US crimp
connections, which they still seem to use on PEX.

Independent assessment concluded that such failures were related to
metal fittings and incorrect installations rather than pipe performance.

Are compression joints (i.e. metal fittings) OK for long term use, too?

All good stuff and Hep are right on many points, but PB is still not used in
the USA. In a country like that you would think if it is fine and problems
were due to other factors it still would be used. Still not used.

I personally prefer PEX as it is stiffer.

On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 17:32:54 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
The problems in the USA with Polybutylene (PB) were generally
installation,
not PB related. As the major UK manufacturer of Polybutylene plumbing
systems Hepworth Plumbing Products take a great interest in this matter,
and
in over 25 years of manufacturing and selling Hep2O & Acorn, we have not
seen any of the problems experienced in the USA.

Phew, that's OK then! I never did like the look of those horrible US crimp
connections, which they still seem to use on PEX.

Independent assessment concluded that such failures were related to
metal fittings and incorrect installations rather than pipe performance.

Are compression joints (i.e. metal fittings) OK for long term use, too?

All good stuff and Hep are right on many points, but PB is still not used in
the USA. In a country like that you would think if it is fine and problems
were due to other factors it still would be used. Still not used.


Not really. All sorts of things are done in every country that are
not based on sound technical or scientific reasons......



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 17:32:54 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
The problems in the USA with Polybutylene (PB) were generally
installation,
not PB related. As the major UK manufacturer of Polybutylene
plumbing
systems Hepworth Plumbing Products take a great interest in this
matter,
and
in over 25 years of manufacturing and selling Hep2O & Acorn, we have
not
seen any of the problems experienced in the USA.

Phew, that's OK then! I never did like the look of those horrible US
crimp
connections, which they still seem to use on PEX.

Independent assessment concluded that such failures were related to
metal fittings and incorrect installations rather than pipe
performance.

Are compression joints (i.e. metal fittings) OK for long term use, too?

All good stuff and Hep are right on many points, but PB is still not used
in
the USA. In a country like that you would think if it is fine and
problems
were due to other factors it still would be used. Still not used.


Not really. All sorts of things are done in every country that are
not based on sound technical or scientific reasons......

Cause for concern!