IMM wrote:

You can get 180 mph from a saloon
car... is yours that quick?


Silly analogy.

Hmmm lets see....

So when someone says "I am going to catch a plane to Scotland".
you say "why not drive?"
they say "It takes too long"
you say "High performance cars are available"

Nope the analogy seems spot on to me. The recommendation is correct and
yet fails to take account of the practicalities of the situation.

That could be your tag line.

It isn't? When people say they only give poor flow and many have high flows
that is not relevant? Amazing. Must be third world logic.

So, many peoples *experience* is of poor (or poorer) flow from combis,
and yet because you and I know that it does not have to be that way,
then all of a sudden their actual experience must be imagined? Did they
step into the IMM perception distortion vortex then?

Most peoples experiance is of far more modest
combis. That is because that is what tends
to get recommended


..and I recommend they get the flow to suit tneir needs and high flows are
avaiable.

So what? most people have never taken or been offered your advice.

Many people I have spoken to would
not even be able to tell
you the input power of the combi they have!


They don't need to. they just want it to provide the flowrates and heat the
house.

The latter is certainly true. I know when I have spoken to people who
are in the process of getting a new combi boiler, they will often make
the assumption that the size of the house (and hence the CH requirement)
dictates the size of the boiler, rather than the HW requirement. Perhaps
it comes from applying the same logic to selecting a combi that would
have been used for a system boiler. Often they have not even thought
about the flow rates they will get, and their so called heating
"engineer" has not explained it either (probably not wishing to
jeopardise an easy sale, and a quick no hassle install).

I suggest you don't comment on topics you obviously know nothing about.

You mean "Do as I say, not what I do"?

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:15:00 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:08:19 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Firstly 100 litres is typical for a modern bath.

No it isn't. I measured one and posted the results recently.
Hi,

Is 160l up to the overflow, before anyone gets in?

Also I would have thought mixing 60°C water with a third cold would be
enough whatever the cold temp, the limit on thermostatic showers is
typically set to 42°C.

cheers,
Pete.




Secondly, the Worcester
Bosch Greenstar 40 at 16 litres/min will do.

Do what and who? Better than 11 or 13lpm I suppose,


Thridly if you have 150 litres
get it replaced as you are adding to global warming.


What on earth are you talking about?


.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:24:38 +0100, Pete C
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:15:00 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:08:19 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Firstly 100 litres is typical for a modern bath.

No it isn't. I measured one and posted the results recently.
Hi,

Is 160l up to the overflow, before anyone gets in?

Nope - although it depends on Archimedes of course.


Also I would have thought mixing 60°C water with a third cold would be
enough whatever the cold temp, the limit on thermostatic showers is
typically set to 42°C.

That would be making the assumption that the water reaches 60 degrees.

Combis are quoted with a flow rate based on a temperature rise of 35
or sometimes 30 degrees. Therefore, the quoted rate will only be
achieved when the water going in is at 25 degrees or more. This is
way over-optimistic and only achieved in long periods of hot weather.

In the winter, water temperature averages 5-8 degrees so at the stated
flow rate, water coming out will be at shower temperature.

The relationships are all linear.......


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

Like the fact your heating would be off all day as a result of said
teenagers using DHW all the time?

Some combi's do CH & DHW simultaneously. If you have teenagers in the
shower

Yes _some_ do, the great majority do not, something you often fail to
point out I notice.

Perhaps you could compile a list of those you know of which are able to
provide DHW and CH simultaneously?

Why? are you going to run out and buy one before the shops close?

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

You can get 180 mph from a saloon
car... is yours that quick?


Silly analogy.

Hmmm lets see....

So when someone says "I am going to catch a plane to Scotland".
you say "why not drive?"
they say "It takes too long"
you say "High performance cars are available"

Stop being silly.

snip silliness

Most peoples experiance is of far more modest
combis. That is because that is what tends
to get recommended

..and I recommend they get the flow to suit
their needs and high flows are avaiable.

So what? most people have never
taken or been offered your advice.

That is sad. they should read here and take it.

Many people I have spoken to would
not even be able to tell
you the input power of the combi they have!

They don't need to. they just want
it to provide the flowrates and heat the
house.

The latter is certainly true. I know when
I have spoken to people who
are in the process of getting a new
combi boiler, they will often make
the assumption that the size of the
house (and hence the CH requirement)
dictates the size of the boiler, rather
than the HW requirement.

That is sad. They should read my posts here.

Perhaps it comes from applying the same logic to selecting a combi that
would
have been used for a system boiler. Often they have not even thought
about the flow rates they will get, and their so called heating
"engineer" has not explained it either (probably not wishing to
jeopardise an easy sale, and a quick no hassle install).

I suggest you don't comment on topics you obviously know nothing about.

You mean "Do as I say, not what I do"?

No, I mean "I suggest you don't comment on topics you obviously know nothing
about".

IMM wrote:

Perhaps you could compile a list of those you know of which are able to
provide DHW and CH simultaneously?


Why? are you going to run out and buy one before the shops close?

No, I was just giving you the chance to contribute something of value to
the group. I know, you think it is too much fun arguing about anything
and nothing in particular to be bothered to do that.

The sad thing is there is a good proportion of the stuff you post that
could be useful. If you could balance some of the advice you offer with
some real world pragmatism, i.e. give the cons as well as the pros then
newcomers to the group could make a balanced decisions based on the
relevant information.

Instead you insist on posting answers based on "black and white"
thinking all backed up with messianic "trust me, I can tango, the rest
of you are plebs" style rhetoric.

Avoid too many "night is day", and "the laws of physics don't apply to
me" arguments, and the rest of us won't have to wast time highlighting
the pitfalls of your suggestions. You may even find the rest of what you
say might have credibility.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

The sad thing is there is a good proportion of the stuff you post that
could be useful. If you could balance some of the advice you offer with
some real world pragmatism,

My advise is full of pragmatism, it just happens to be over your head.

snip as I am not into third world reasoning

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
The sad thing is there is a good proportion of the stuff you post that
could be useful. If you could balance some of the advice you offer with
some real world pragmatism, i.e. give the cons as well as the pros then
newcomers to the group could make a balanced decisions based on the
relevant information.

But the adverts and websites he quotes from are unlikely to give the down
sides.

--
*What was the best thing before sliced bread?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message ...
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:03:13 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
.net...
I have also been looking into heat banks and no matter how I assess,
one large or two small combi boilers comes out the best option all
around for me.

You should remember that a standard heat bank is good for around 40lpm
(at
60C). This is equivalent to 63lpm in combi delta Ts. That would require
5
cheap instantaneous combi boilers and a commercial gas supply to run
them.

That is nearly true. But most people don't need a commercial setup. Most
people are content on a bath fill of 5 minutes and a excellent showers.
A
combi, or combi's, can do that with less hassle in installation and lower
cost .

Where are you going to find a domestic combi able to deliver 30lpm?

I am not a fan of combi boilers as they provide no back up, which you do get
with an indirect cylinder and immersion heater, and the flow rates are a bit
poor. I have, however, now experienced my second good combi boiler. The

How many bad ones have you experienced?

MBQ

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 21:35:11 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


That would be making the assumption that the water reaches 60 degrees.

Combis are quoted with a flow rate based on a temperature rise of 35
or sometimes 30 degrees. Therefore, the quoted rate will only be
achieved when the water going in is at 25 degrees or more. This is
way over-optimistic and only achieved in long periods of hot weather.

In the winter, water temperature averages 5-8 degrees so at the stated
flow rate, water coming out will be at shower temperature.

The relationships are all linear.......

I see, maybe that's where the IMM concept of 2 boilers comes in, there
is an extra one hidden in the attic to boost the DHW

I reckon most people could wait an extra 5 mins for the bath to fill,
I'd be tempted to get in when the bath is half full.

Also for a larger 40kW combi 16l/min at 35°C should be enough for a
decent shower.

cheers,
Pete.

"MBQ" wrote in message
om...
"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:03:13 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Christian McArdle" wrote in
message
.net...
I have also been looking into heat banks and no matter how I
assess,
one large or two small combi boilers comes out the best option
all
around for me.

You should remember that a standard heat bank is good for around
40lpm
(at
60C). This is equivalent to 63lpm in combi delta Ts. That would
require
5
cheap instantaneous combi boilers and a commercial gas supply to
run
them.

That is nearly true. But most people don't need a commercial setup.
Most
people are content on a bath fill of 5 minutes and a excellent
showers.
A
combi, or combi's, can do that with less hassle in installation and
lower
cost .

Where are you going to find a domestic combi able to deliver 30lpm?

I am not a fan of combi boilers as they provide no back up, which you do
get
with an indirect cylinder and immersion heater, and the flow rates are a
bit
poor. I have, however, now experienced my second good combi boiler. The

How many bad ones have you experienced?

What is meant by bad?

"MBQ" wrote in message
om...
"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:03:13 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Christian McArdle" wrote in
message
.net...
I have also been looking into heat banks and no matter how I
assess,
one large or two small combi boilers comes out the best option
all
around for me.

You should remember that a standard heat bank is good for around
40lpm
(at
60C). This is equivalent to 63lpm in combi delta Ts. That would
require
5
cheap instantaneous combi boilers and a commercial gas supply to
run
them.

That is nearly true. But most people don't need a commercial setup.
Most
people are content on a bath fill of 5 minutes and a excellent
showers.
A
combi, or combi's, can do that with less hassle in installation and
lower
cost .

Where are you going to find a domestic combi able to deliver 30lpm?

I am not a fan of combi boilers as they provide no back up, which you do
get
with an indirect cylinder and immersion heater, and the flow rates are a
bit
poor. I have, however, now experienced my second good combi boiler. The

How many bad ones have you experienced?

I didn't say I had. On the basis that larger = more hot water and better
flow, the very large ones I have seen were OK in terms of flow but not
brilliant - I wouldn't want to have less flow than I experienced from them.
If you are going to tell me that smaller combis (ie something the size of my
current CH boiler on the wall) would provide greater a flow/temperature
combination than a 1m^3 floor mounted jobby, then I am happy to reserve
judgement until I have used such a beast (perhaps you could give details).
You will note that I had two reasons for not using one. The second reason
was flow.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...

How many bad ones have you experienced?

I didn't say I had. On the basis that larger = more hot water and better
flow, the very large ones I have seen were OK in terms of flow but not
brilliant - I wouldn't want to have less flow than I experienced from
them.
If you are going to tell me that smaller combis (ie something the size of
my
current CH boiler on the wall) would provide greater a flow/temperature
combination than a 1m^3 floor mounted jobby, then I am happy to reserve
judgement until I have used such a beast (perhaps you could give details).

http://www.eco-hometec.co.uk

22 litres/minute, and goes on the wall.

You will note that I had two reasons for not using one. The second reason
was flow.

Not a problem if you get the right model. It is like saying all commercial
vehicles are crap because a Mini van does hold much. If you need to carry a
lot of stuff you get the right vehicle. The same with combi's

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...

How many bad ones have you experienced?

I didn't say I had. On the basis that larger = more hot water and better
flow, the very large ones I have seen were OK in terms of flow but not
brilliant - I wouldn't want to have less flow than I experienced from
them.
If you are going to tell me that smaller combis (ie something the size
of
my
current CH boiler on the wall) would provide greater a flow/temperature
combination than a 1m^3 floor mounted jobby, then I am happy to reserve
judgement until I have used such a beast (perhaps you could give
details).

http://www.eco-hometec.co.uk

22 litres/minute, and goes on the wall.

Yes you quoted that before and I have no reason to argue/disbelieve the
figure. If this is a larger flow rate than these very big combis I have seen
on the floor, why do people buy the big ones that go on the floor? It's not
my floor, so I'm not bothered either way, but just interested.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...

How many bad ones have you experienced?

I didn't say I had. On the basis that larger = more hot water and better
flow, the very large ones I have seen were OK in terms of flow but not
brilliant - I wouldn't want to have less flow than I experienced from
them.
If you are going to tell me that smaller combis (ie something the size of
my
current CH boiler on the wall) would provide greater a flow/temperature
combination than a 1m^3 floor mounted jobby, then I am happy to reserve
judgement until I have used such a beast (perhaps you could give
details).

http://www.eco-hometec.co.uk

22 litres/minute, and goes on the wall.


This is indeeed a good boiler, and it is on my shortlist, if I go down this
route, BUT it is worth noting that the quoted 22l/min is for a 30C temp
rise, for a 35C rise then you are down to just less than 19l/min. I had
thought that there was some vain effort to standardise on a 35 C temp rise,
every time I see a figure 20l/min it turns out that they either have a
small built in storage capacity or quote for a 30C rise.

cheers

David

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:40:10 +0100, "David"
wrote:



This is indeeed a good boiler, and it is on my shortlist, if I go down this
route, BUT it is worth noting that the quoted 22l/min is for a 30C temp
rise, for a 35C rise then you are down to just less than 19l/min. I had
thought that there was some vain effort to standardise on a 35 C temp rise,
every time I see a figure 20l/min it turns out that they either have a
small built in storage capacity or quote for a 30C rise.

cheers

David


This is a MAN Micromat http://www.man-heiztechnik.de/index_e.php

I have one of their system condensing boilers and it is excellent.

If you want a larger model, there are others in the range distributed
by MHS Boilers.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...

How many bad ones have you experienced?

I didn't say I had. On the basis that larger = more hot water and
better
flow, the very large ones I have seen were OK in terms of flow but not
brilliant - I wouldn't want to have less flow than I experienced from
them.
If you are going to tell me that smaller combis (ie something the size
of
my
current CH boiler on the wall) would provide greater a
flow/temperature
combination than a 1m^3 floor mounted jobby, then I am happy to
reserve
judgement until I have used such a beast (perhaps you could give
details).

http://www.eco-hometec.co.uk

22 litres/minute, and goes on the wall.

Yes you quoted that before and I have no reason to argue/disbelieve the
figure. If this is a larger flow rate than these very big combis I have
seen
on the floor, why do people buy the big ones that go on the floor? It's
not
my floor, so I'm not bothered either way, but just interested.

This boiler is svery expensive. Well it is in the RR class, that is why.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
You will note that I had two reasons for not using one. The second
reason was flow.

Not a problem if you get the right model. It is like saying all
commercial vehicles are crap because a Mini van does hold much. If you
need to carry a lot of stuff you get the right vehicle. The same with
combi's

Yes. A Mini van after all costs the same as an artic.

Does money never enter your little planet?

--
*And don't start a sentence with a conjunction *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Pete C" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 21:35:11 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


That would be making the assumption that the water reaches 60 degrees.

Combis are quoted with a flow rate based on a temperature rise of 35
or sometimes 30 degrees. Therefore, the quoted rate will only be
achieved when the water going in is at 25 degrees or more. This is
way over-optimistic and only achieved in long periods of hot weather.

In the winter, water temperature averages 5-8 degrees so at the stated
flow rate, water coming out will be at shower temperature.

The relationships are all linear.......

I see, maybe that's where the IMM concept of 2 boilers comes in, there
is an extra one hidden in the attic to boost the DHW

Sort of. One can do CH down and one up giving easy zoning too.

I reckon most people could wait an extra 5 mins for the bath to fill,
I'd be tempted to get in when the bath is half full.

Also for a larger 40kW combi 16l/min at 35°C should be enough for a
decent shower.

It will do two as most showers are approx 7 to 8 litres/min.

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 01:37:37 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



Sort of. One can do CH down and one up giving easy zoning too.

I reckon most people could wait an extra 5 mins for the bath to fill,
I'd be tempted to get in when the bath is half full.

Also for a larger 40kW combi 16l/min at 35°C should be enough for a
decent shower.

It will do two as most showers are approx 7 to 8 litres/min.



Yours might be.

Proper ones are twice that. 7-8lpm is down in the electric shower
range.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 01:37:37 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



Sort of. One can do CH down and one up giving easy zoning too.

I reckon most people could wait an extra 5 mins for the bath to fill,
I'd be tempted to get in when the bath is half full.

Also for a larger 40kW combi 16l/min at 35°C should be enough for a
decent shower.

It will do two as most showers are approx 7 to 8 litres/min.

Yours might be.

Like the majority of showers.

Proper ones are twice that.

No. Irresponsible wasteful showers are like that. Mr Blair the other day has
declared war on anti-eco people like you. So you are now out of order along
with obese people. Mrs Thatcher declared war on single mothers. they were
public enemy No. 1. The mother pushing her child down the street was the
cause of all our ills, according to Thatcher.

7-8lpm is down in the electric shower
range.

Your knowledge of showers is near nil. That is sad. 7-8 in the electric
range is at the top.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
It will do two as most showers are approx 7 to 8 litres/min.

Then most showers are pathetic.

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Your knowledge of showers is near nil. That is sad. 7-8 in the electric
range is at the top.

And your knowledge of why this is at the top of the range appears zero too.

--
*Funny, I don't remember being absent minded.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...

How many bad ones have you experienced?

I didn't say I had. On the basis that larger = more hot water and
better
flow, the very large ones I have seen were OK in terms of flow but
not
brilliant - I wouldn't want to have less flow than I experienced
from
them.
If you are going to tell me that smaller combis (ie something the
size
of
my
current CH boiler on the wall) would provide greater a
flow/temperature
combination than a 1m^3 floor mounted jobby, then I am happy to
reserve
judgement until I have used such a beast (perhaps you could give
details).

http://www.eco-hometec.co.uk

22 litres/minute, and goes on the wall.

Yes you quoted that before and I have no reason to argue/disbelieve the
figure. If this is a larger flow rate than these very big combis I have
seen
on the floor, why do people buy the big ones that go on the floor? It's
not
my floor, so I'm not bothered either way, but just interested.

This boiler is svery expensive. Well it is in the RR class, that is why.

I did look on the Hometec site but couldn't find the actual boiler you
mentioned - what's it called? It would be expensive, I guess, as 22l/min is
probably leading-edge for a combi.

I'm not actually in the market for one but it would be interesting to
compare figures.



--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:33:54 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 01:37:37 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



Sort of. One can do CH down and one up giving easy zoning too.

I reckon most people could wait an extra 5 mins for the bath to fill,
I'd be tempted to get in when the bath is half full.

Also for a larger 40kW combi 16l/min at 35°C should be enough for a
decent shower.

It will do two as most showers are approx 7 to 8 litres/min.

Yours might be.

Like the majority of showers.

I don't think so. Go away and take a look at some specifications of
good quality shower equipment.


Proper ones are twice that.

No. Irresponsible wasteful showers are like that. Mr Blair the other day has
declared war on anti-eco people like you.

Well I suppose he has to do something to draw attention away from his
party's shameful bill on hunting, and from that fact that he has an
attention span of no more than 15 seconds. Yesterday in Parliament,
he made a total fool of himself by not being able to remember a
question asked by Michael Howard about hospital hygiene. He was even
laughed at by his own party.

Then when asked about his thoughts on another eco-subject of how far
food travels from point of production to use, he didn't know because
nobody had prepared an answer for him. .

So I don't set any store by what Mr TB says or advises. THe man is
way past his sell-by date.

When he pontificates on something, it is for effect and nothing more,
and only when somebody else has prepared the material.


So you are now out of order along
with obese people. Mrs Thatcher declared war on single mothers. they were
public enemy No. 1. The mother pushing her child down the street was the
cause of all our ills, according to Thatcher.

What a lot of nonsense.


7-8lpm is down in the electric shower
range.

Your knowledge of showers is near nil. That is sad. 7-8 in the electric
range is at the top.


Exactly. Who would ever claim that *any* electric shower gives good
performance.

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:58:52 +0100, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:



I did look on the Hometec site but couldn't find the actual boiler you
mentioned - what's it called? It would be expensive, I guess, as 22l/min is
probably leading-edge for a combi.

I'm not actually in the market for one but it would be interesting to
compare figures.


EH market the MAN Micromat boiler

http://www.man-heiztechnik.de/_html_...e/micromat.php

It is a very good boiler (I Have the system version), in that it
modulates heat production down to 4kW, also controlling the pump and
including analogue sensing for the DHW and CH to control modulation
and weather compensation.
Pricing is north of £1000.

There is a combi version (EC38S) with 46kW rating for DHW which is
able to do 22lpm. However this is at a temperature rise of 30
degrees.

http://www.eco-hometec.co.uk/EC16%20...cal%20data.htm


Most boilers are quoted at a dT of 35 degrees, so to normalise, this
boiler would have an output of around 18lpm on the same scale.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:33:54 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 01:37:37 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



Sort of. One can do CH down and one up giving easy zoning too.

I reckon most people could wait an extra 5 mins for the bath to
fill,
I'd be tempted to get in when the bath is half full.

Also for a larger 40kW combi 16l/min at 35°C should be enough for a
decent shower.

It will do two as most showers are approx 7 to 8 litres/min.

Yours might be.

Like the majority of showers.

I don't think so. Go away and take a look at some specifications of
good quality shower equipment.


Proper ones are twice that.

No. Irresponsible wasteful showers are like that. Mr Blair the other day
has
declared war on anti-eco people like you.

Well I suppose he has to do something
to draw attention away from his
party's shameful bill on hunting,

Fabulous bill. Killing for sport? Barbaric. No doubt that bargain hunters
are also an equal blight on society.

So you are now out of order along
with obese people. Mrs Thatcher declared
war on single mothers. they were
public enemy No. 1. The mother pushing
her child down the street was the
cause of all our ills, according to Thatcher.

What a lot of nonsense.

That was the case. Mothers in push chairs were being victimised. They were
public enemy No. 1.

snip babble

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:55:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:




No. Irresponsible wasteful showers are like that. Mr Blair the other day
has
declared war on anti-eco people like you.

Just for the record, I am by no means anti-eco, but I am anti
eco-bull**** - i.e. things taken out of context and to ridiculous
extremes, and especially when done just to make imagined fashionable
points.




Well I suppose he has to do something
to draw attention away from his
party's shameful bill on hunting,

Fabulous bill. Killing for sport? Barbaric. No doubt that bargain hunters
are also an equal blight on society.

Very badly thought out, almost certainly impractical
to implement.

The main issue is the huge waste of Parliamentary time and
the inappropriate use of the Parliament Act.

Undoubtedly this will come back to haunt Mr TB and cronies
and I am sure that it will be repealled anyway - probably before
it comes into force.



So you are now out of order along
with obese people. Mrs Thatcher declared
war on single mothers. they were
public enemy No. 1. The mother pushing
her child down the street was the
cause of all our ills, according to Thatcher.

What a lot of nonsense.

That was the case. Mothers in push chairs were being victimised. They were
public enemy No. 1.


I don't know that many mothers in push chairs. I guess that this is a
Milton Keynes phenomenon, or perhaps you saw it in Eyebyeza.





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:58:52 +0100, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:



I did look on the Hometec site but couldn't find the actual boiler you
mentioned - what's it called? It would be expensive, I guess, as 22l/min
is
probably leading-edge for a combi.

I'm not actually in the market for one but it would be interesting to
compare figures.


EH market the MAN Micromat boiler

http://www.man-heiztechnik.de/_html_...e/micromat.php

It is a very good boiler (I Have the system version), in that it
modulates heat production down to 4kW, also controlling the pump and
including analogue sensing for the DHW and CH to control modulation
and weather compensation.
Pricing is north of £1000.

There is a combi version (EC38S) with 46kW rating for DHW which is
able to do 22lpm. However this is at a temperature rise of 30
degrees.

http://www.eco-hometec.co.uk/EC16%20...cal%20data.htm


Most boilers are quoted at a dT of 35 degrees, so to normalise, this
boiler would have an output of around 18lpm on the same scale.

Ah. Many thanks.

Bob Mannix

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:58:52 +0100, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:



I did look on the Hometec site but couldn't find the actual boiler you
mentioned - what's it called? It would be expensive, I guess, as
22l/min
is
probably leading-edge for a combi.

I'm not actually in the market for one but it would be interesting to
compare figures.


EH market the MAN Micromat boiler

http://www.man-heiztechnik.de/_html_...e/micromat.php

It is a very good boiler (I Have the system version), in that it
modulates heat production down to 4kW, also controlling the pump and
including analogue sensing for the DHW and CH to control modulation
and weather compensation.
Pricing is north of £1000.

There is a combi version (EC38S) with 46kW rating for DHW which is
able to do 22lpm. However this is at a temperature rise of 30
degrees.

http://www.eco-hometec.co.uk/EC16%20...cal%20data.htm

Most boilers are quoted at a dT of 35 degrees, so to normalise, this
boiler would have an output of around 18lpm on the same scale.

Ah. Many thanks.

Bob Mannix

The Alpha CB50 has a high flowrate and is wall mounted.

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:11:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



The Alpha CB50 has a high flowrate and is wall mounted.


The manufacturers quote 18lpm and since the maximum power rating is
only 28kW, once the small 50 litre store is exhausted, it will drop to
the typical 11lpm. Not very exciting at all.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
No. Irresponsible wasteful showers are like that. Mr Blair the other
day has declared war on anti-eco people like you.

Just for the record, I am by no means anti-eco, but I am anti
eco-bull**** - i.e. things taken out of context and to ridiculous
extremes, and especially when done just to make imagined fashionable
points.

The only electric shower I ever use is at my brother's house, and I find I
spend longer washing in that than with my decent one at home. Which one
uses more water - or energy - I'm not sure, and neither do I care.

--
*Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:11:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

The Alpha CB50 has a high flowrate and is wall mounted.

The manufacturers quote 18lpm and since the maximum power rating is
only 28kW, once the small 50 litre store is exhausted, it will drop to
the typical 11lpm. Not very exciting at all.

It is exciting. It will do a shower and bath very well indeed, and "never"
run out of hot water.

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:58:33 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:11:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

The Alpha CB50 has a high flowrate and is wall mounted.

The manufacturers quote 18lpm and since the maximum power rating is
only 28kW, once the small 50 litre store is exhausted, it will drop to
the typical 11lpm. Not very exciting at all.

It is exciting. It will do a shower and bath very well indeed, and "never"
run out of hot water.


Not really. Even with one of your puddle in the bottom baths, the
store will just about make it when mixed with cold water. It won't
do a decent sized bath.

After that it is down to 11lpm which equates to a mediochre shower.

As I said, not very exciting at all. Plus because it exceeds to limit
for pressurised HW systems has to be professionally installed.

A linsey-woolsey product if ever I saw one.






..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:58:33 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:11:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

The Alpha CB50 has a high flowrate and is wall mounted.

The manufacturers quote 18lpm and since the maximum power rating is
only 28kW, once the small 50 litre store is exhausted, it will drop to
the typical 11lpm. Not very exciting at all.

It is exciting. It will do a shower and bath very well indeed, and
"never"
run out of hot water.


Not really.

snip mentalist drivel

In article ,
IMM wrote:
The Alpha CB50 has a high flowrate and is wall mounted.

The manufacturers quote 18lpm and since the maximum power rating is
only 28kW, once the small 50 litre store is exhausted, it will drop to
the typical 11lpm. Not very exciting at all.

It is exciting. It will do a shower and bath very well indeed, and
"never" run out of hot water.

Perhaps you might define your idea of hot water. Anything above ambient
temperature, apparently.

Since you seem to approve of the idea of stored hot water in this case,
why not do the job *properly* and have a store big enough for most needs?
Perhaps it's too complicated to install, since you seem to love the one
box approach. Even although it doesn't work properly.

--
*The most common name in the world is Mohammed *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:40:41 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:11:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



The Alpha CB50 has a high flowrate and is wall mounted.


The manufacturers quote 18lpm and since the maximum power rating is
only 28kW, once the small 50 litre store is exhausted, it will drop to
the typical 11lpm. Not very exciting at all.

Hi,

That 18lpm is at 60°C though and the store is 60l, which is enough to
fill a bath in 6 mins. What would you consider a reasonable flow rate
for a shower?

cheers,
Pete.

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:22:13 +0100, Pete C
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:40:41 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:11:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



The Alpha CB50 has a high flowrate and is wall mounted.


The manufacturers quote 18lpm and since the maximum power rating is
only 28kW, once the small 50 litre store is exhausted, it will drop to
the typical 11lpm. Not very exciting at all.

Hi,

That 18lpm is at 60°C though and the store is 60l, which is enough to
fill a bath in 6 mins.

That depends on the temperature of the cold water. If it's 5-8
degrees as it would be in the winter, you won't have put enough in
before the store runs out.

What would you consider a reasonable flow rate
for a shower?

Absolute minimum of 15lpm, preferably 20-25lpm per shower.


cheers,
Pete.

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:22:13 +0100, Pete C
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:40:41 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:11:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



The Alpha CB50 has a high flowrate and is wall mounted.


The manufacturers quote 18lpm and since the maximum power rating is
only 28kW, once the small 50 litre store is exhausted, it will drop to
the typical 11lpm. Not very exciting at all.

Hi,

That 18lpm is at 60°C though and the store is 60l, which is enough to
fill a bath in 6 mins. What would you consider a reasonable flow rate
for a shower?

cheers,
Pete.

To be a bit more accurate:

The formula for resultant temperature of mixing water is

Vc[Tf - Tc] = Vh[Th - Tf]

Where upper case V=volume T=temperature
and lower case h=hot, c=cold and f=final

The store holds 57 litres according to the manufacturer

If the mains water temperature is 5 degrees:

Vc[40 - 5] = 57[60 - 40]

Solving for Vc gives 32 litres and a total of 89litres which is not
enough even for an IMM bath of 100litres. For a reasonable bath of
150 litres It is only jut over half way there and at 11lpm will take a
further 5 minutes or more to fill.

At 10 degrees cold temperature, you could add 38 litres but still you
would be at less than an IMM bath and still at nearly 5 mins to fill
to produce a reasonable bath.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:00:42 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

That 18lpm is at 60°C though and the store is 60l, which is enough to
fill a bath in 6 mins.

That depends on the temperature of the cold water. If it's 5-8
degrees as it would be in the winter, you won't have put enough in
before the store runs out.

Should just do it, the 60l at 60°C in the store will give 100l of
bathwater at 38°C, leaving 60l of bathwater required for a 160l bath.
The 28kW boiler will give 10l/min at 38°C, so would take 6 minutes to
heat the rest of the bathwater.

What would you consider a reasonable flow rate
for a shower?

Absolute minimum of 15lpm, preferably 20-25lpm per shower.

Fairly high, how long would that be for, 10 mins?

cheers,
Pete.