On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:41:38 +0100, Pete C
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:00:42 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

That 18lpm is at 60°C though and the store is 60l, which is enough to
fill a bath in 6 mins.

That depends on the temperature of the cold water. If it's 5-8
degrees as it would be in the winter, you won't have put enough in
before the store runs out.

Should just do it, the 60l at 60°C in the store will give 100l of
bathwater at 38°C, leaving 60l of bathwater required for a 160l bath.

See other post - the shortfall is rather more.

The 28kW boiler will give 10l/min at 38°C, so would take 6 minutes to
heat the rest of the bathwater.

Which overall is pretty disappointing.

I can fill the bath to equivalent volume in about 4 mins max.


What would you consider a reasonable flow rate
for a shower?

Absolute minimum of 15lpm, preferably 20-25lpm per shower.

Fairly high, how long would that be for, 10 mins?

Not really - I find that sort of flow rate just about acceptable -
typically for 15-20 minutes.



cheers,
Pete.

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Pete C" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:00:42 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

That 18lpm is at 60°C though and the store is 60l, which is enough to
fill a bath in 6 mins.

That depends on the temperature of the cold water. If it's 5-8
degrees as it would be in the winter, you won't have put enough in
before the store runs out.

Should just do it, the 60l at 60°C in the store will give 100l of
bathwater at 38°C, leaving 60l of bathwater required for a 160l bath.
The 28kW boiler will give 10l/min at 38°C, so would take 6 minutes to
heat the rest of the bathwater.

Leaving aside the type of heater;-

I have a "ComputaShower" computerised bath filler;
The system mixes hot and cold water precisely and fills
the bath to a preset (constant) level

I've experimented with filling the bath with differing
temperatures; it's anecdotes not data, but;-
This 43deg C bath is too hot ..
This 38 deg C bath is too cold
This 41deg C bath is just right ...said the little bear,

--

Brian

In message , IMM writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:11:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

The Alpha CB50 has a high flowrate and is wall mounted.

The manufacturers quote 18lpm and since the maximum power rating is
only 28kW, once the small 50 litre store is exhausted, it will drop to
the typical 11lpm. Not very exciting at all.

It is exciting. It will do a shower and bath very well indeed, and "never"
run out of hot water.

So what do you think of the 28i Junior DIMM ?


--
geoff

IMM wrote:

It will do two as most showers are approx 7 to 8 litres/min.

In our area, it won't do one at 6pm. The flow rate varies throughout the
day between 12 and 6 litres/min dependent on the total demand. I have no
intention of fitting new input pipes when the existing non combi system
can provide 40l/m for the period required to run baths. We also average
one water supply failure/yr, so I would not willingly give up the local loft tank facility.

Regards
Capitol

Regards
Capitol

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


IMM wrote:

It will do two as most showers are approx 7 to 8 litres/min.

In our area, it won't do one at 6pm. The flow rate varies throughout the
day between 12 and 6 litres/min dependent on the total demand. I have no
intention of fitting new input pipes when the existing non combi system
can provide 40l/m for the period required to run baths. We also average
one water supply failure/yr, so I would not willingly give up the local
loft tank facility.

You need to move to an area with proper services.

"Pete C" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:40:41 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:11:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

The Alpha CB50 has a high flowrate and is wall mounted.

The manufacturers quote 18lpm and since the maximum power rating is
only 28kW, once the small 50 litre store is exhausted, it will drop to
the typical 11lpm. Not very exciting at all.

Hi,

That 18lpm is at 60°C though and the store is 60l, which is enough to
fill a bath in 6 mins. What would you consider a reasonable flow rate
for a shower?

Also when the cylinder is approx 25% depleted the boiler kicks in re-heating
as hot water is being drawn-off.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

Absolute minimum of 15lpm, preferably 20-25lpm per shower.

25 l/min per shower? Absolute irresponsible. The water used and energy used
to heat that is ridiculous.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:22:13 +0100, Pete C
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:40:41 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:11:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



The Alpha CB50 has a high flowrate and is wall mounted.


The manufacturers quote 18lpm and since the maximum power rating is
only 28kW, once the small 50 litre store is exhausted, it will drop to
the typical 11lpm. Not very exciting at all.

Hi,

That 18lpm is at 60°C though and the store is 60l, which is enough to
fill a bath in 6 mins. What would you consider a reasonable flow rate
for a shower?

cheers,
Pete.

To be a bit more accurate:

The formula for resultant temperature of mixing water is

Vc[Tf - Tc] = Vh[Th - Tf]

Where upper case V=volume T=temperature
and lower case h=hot, c=cold and f=final

The store holds 57 litres according to the manufacturer

If the mains water temperature is 5 degrees:

Vc[40 - 5] = 57[60 - 40]

Solving for Vc gives 32 litres and a total of 89litres which is not
enough even for an IMM bath of 100litres. For a reasonable bath of
150 litres It is only jut over half way there and at 11lpm will take a
further 5 minutes or more to fill.

At 10 degrees cold temperature, you could add 38 litres but still you
would be at less than an IMM bath and still at nearly 5 mins to fill
to produce a reasonable bath.

You have clearly never seen a CB50 in action they fill 100 litres baths no
problem, summer and winter.

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , IMM writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:11:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

The Alpha CB50 has a high flowrate and is wall mounted.

The manufacturers quote 18lpm and since the maximum power rating is
only 28kW, once the small 50 litre store is exhausted, it will drop to
the typical 11lpm. Not very exciting at all.

It is exciting. It will do a shower and bath very well indeed, and
"never"
run out of hot water.

So what do you think of the 28i Junior DIMM ?

Maxie is Dim Lin the luscious far eastern lovely 28 years old? That is old
my boy!!

In message , Brian Sharrock
writes

"Pete C" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:00:42 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

That 18lpm is at 60°C though and the store is 60l, which is enough to
fill a bath in 6 mins.

That depends on the temperature of the cold water. If it's 5-8
degrees as it would be in the winter, you won't have put enough in
before the store runs out.

Should just do it, the 60l at 60°C in the store will give 100l of
bathwater at 38°C, leaving 60l of bathwater required for a 160l bath.
The 28kW boiler will give 10l/min at 38°C, so would take 6 minutes to
heat the rest of the bathwater.

Leaving aside the type of heater;-

I have a "ComputaShower" computerised bath filler;
The system mixes hot and cold water precisely and fills
the bath to a preset (constant) level

I've experimented with filling the bath with differing
temperatures; it's anecdotes not data, but;-
This 43deg C bath is too hot ..
This 38 deg C bath is too cold
This 41deg C bath is just right ...said the little bear,

Did you mean bare ?

--
geoff

In message , IMM writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , IMM writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:11:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

The Alpha CB50 has a high flowrate and is wall mounted.

The manufacturers quote 18lpm and since the maximum power rating is
only 28kW, once the small 50 litre store is exhausted, it will drop to
the typical 11lpm. Not very exciting at all.

It is exciting. It will do a shower and bath very well indeed, and
"never"
run out of hot water.

So what do you think of the 28i Junior DIMM ?

Maxie is Dim Lin the luscious far eastern lovely 28 years old? That is old
my boy!!

I ask you a sensible question and you can't answer it

--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , IMM writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , IMM
writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:11:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

The Alpha CB50 has a high flowrate and is wall mounted.

The manufacturers quote 18lpm and since the maximum power rating is
only 28kW, once the small 50 litre store is exhausted, it will drop
to
the typical 11lpm. Not very exciting at all.

It is exciting. It will do a shower and bath very well indeed, and
"never"
run out of hot water.

So what do you think of the 28i Junior DIMM ?

Maxie is Dim Lin the luscious far eastern lovely 28 years old? That is
old
my boy!!

I ask you a sensible question and you can't answer it

OK I think she is fabulous, even though she is old.

In message , IMM writes

So what do you think of the 28i Junior DIMM ?

Maxie is Dim Lin the luscious far eastern lovely 28 years old? That is
old
my boy!!

I ask you a sensible question and you can't answer it

OK I think she is fabulous, even though she is old.

Should be just about right for you then

answer the question


--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , IMM writes

So what do you think of the 28i Junior DIMM ?

Maxie is Dim Lin the luscious far eastern lovely 28 years old? That
is
old
my boy!!

I ask you a sensible question and you can't answer it

OK I think she is fabulous, even though she is old.

Should be just about right for you then

answer the question

Maxie I did. I think she is fabulous.

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:48:10 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

Absolute minimum of 15lpm, preferably 20-25lpm per shower.

25 l/min per shower? Absolute irresponsible. The water used and energy used
to heat that is ridiculous.

No it isn't.

Assuming that I were to use a whole 200 litre cylinder, which I seldom
do, the energy required would be 12kWh - cost around 25-30p.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:50:29 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message


To be a bit more accurate:

The formula for resultant temperature of mixing water is

Vc[Tf - Tc] = Vh[Th - Tf]

Where upper case V=volume T=temperature
and lower case h=hot, c=cold and f=final

The store holds 57 litres according to the manufacturer

If the mains water temperature is 5 degrees:

Vc[40 - 5] = 57[60 - 40]

Solving for Vc gives 32 litres and a total of 89litres which is not
enough even for an IMM bath of 100litres. For a reasonable bath of
150 litres It is only jut over half way there and at 11lpm will take a
further 5 minutes or more to fill.

At 10 degrees cold temperature, you could add 38 litres but still you
would be at less than an IMM bath and still at nearly 5 mins to fill
to produce a reasonable bath.

You have clearly never seen a CB50 in action they fill 100 litres baths no
problem, summer and winter.

It's irrelevant. The machine can't defy physics, no matter how much
you would like it o do so. The figures for filling even a
drop-in-the-bottom 100l bath aren't brilliant, and if it's a proper
sized 150l, the performance is pathetic.
THey should either have designed it with a larger store (although then
it wouldn't go on the wall) or a larger burner.

As I say - a linsey-wolsey product.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:46:22 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Pete C" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:40:41 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:11:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

The Alpha CB50 has a high flowrate and is wall mounted.

The manufacturers quote 18lpm and since the maximum power rating is
only 28kW, once the small 50 litre store is exhausted, it will drop to
the typical 11lpm. Not very exciting at all.

Hi,

That 18lpm is at 60°C though and the store is 60l, which is enough to
fill a bath in 6 mins. What would you consider a reasonable flow rate
for a shower?

Also when the cylinder is approx 25% depleted the boiler kicks in re-heating
as hot water is being drawn-off.


It makes little difference because the production rate at 40 degree
output is only 11lpm.





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:48:10 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

Absolute minimum of 15lpm, preferably 20-25lpm per shower.

25 l/min per shower? Absolute irresponsible. The water used and energy
used
to heat that is ridiculous.

No it isn't.

It is! I will not engage with any defence of such irresponsibility. Mr
Blair will be making war on the likes you.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:50:29 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message


To be a bit more accurate:

The formula for resultant temperature of mixing water is

Vc[Tf - Tc] = Vh[Th - Tf]

Where upper case V=volume T=temperature
and lower case h=hot, c=cold and f=final

The store holds 57 litres according to the manufacturer

If the mains water temperature is 5 degrees:

Vc[40 - 5] = 57[60 - 40]

Solving for Vc gives 32 litres and a total of 89litres which is not
enough even for an IMM bath of 100litres. For a reasonable bath of
150 litres It is only jut over half way there and at 11lpm will take a
further 5 minutes or more to fill.

At 10 degrees cold temperature, you could add 38 litres but still you
would be at less than an IMM bath and still at nearly 5 mins to fill
to produce a reasonable bath.

You have clearly never seen a CB50 in action they fill 100 litres baths
no
problem, summer and winter.

It's irrelevant. The machine can't defy
physics,

Well they defy Andy's version.

snip babble

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:29:23 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:48:10 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

Absolute minimum of 15lpm, preferably 20-25lpm per shower.

25 l/min per shower? Absolute irresponsible. The water used and energy
used
to heat that is ridiculous.

No it isn't.

It is! I will not engage with any defence of such irresponsibility. Mr
Blair will be making war on the likes you.


If he can remember what the subject was for more than 10 seconds.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:29:23 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:48:10 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

Absolute minimum of 15lpm, preferably 20-25lpm per shower.

25 l/min per shower? Absolute irresponsible. The water used and
energy
used
to heat that is ridiculous.

No it isn't.

It is! I will not engage with any defence of such irresponsibility. Mr
Blair will be making war on the likes you.

If he can remember what the subject was for more than 10 seconds.

Well those fascist violent people who want to kill for sport have been
legislated against, and the Tories/royal family are implicated in breaching
the Commons to commit violent acts against democracy. I am appalled and
admire the way the government banned the scum. The level of violence
perpetrated against our good policemen was appalling.

Now to ban bargain hunting.

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:26:27 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:29:23 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:48:10 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

Absolute minimum of 15lpm, preferably 20-25lpm per shower.

25 l/min per shower? Absolute irresponsible. The water used and
energy
used
to heat that is ridiculous.

No it isn't.

It is! I will not engage with any defence of such irresponsibility. Mr
Blair will be making war on the likes you.

If he can remember what the subject was for more than 10 seconds.

Well those fascist violent people who want to kill for sport have been
legislated against,

This, of course, is what it is about - legislating against the
people.....

and the Tories/royal family are implicated in breaching
the Commons to commit violent acts against democracy.

I really don't think that one of the perpetrators being a friend of
Prince Harry "implicates the royal family".

That would be like saying that everything the my son does implicates
the royal family because he played rugby with Prince Harry once.


I am appalled and
admire the way the government banned the scum. The level of violence
perpetrated against our good policemen was appalling.

I agree that this is inappropriate.

Almost as inappropriate as the use of the Parliament Act and
engineering the timetable in a pathetic attempt to avoid it being an
election issue.

Now of course it will become one - not because of animal welfare, but
because of inappropriate interference in people's lives and the abuse
of power to do so.


Now to ban bargain hunting.

So you're proposing to shut down Harrods?


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:03:27 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

You have clearly never seen a CB50 in action they fill 100 litres baths no
problem, summer and winter.

It's irrelevant. The machine can't defy physics, no matter how much
you would like it o do so. The figures for filling even a
drop-in-the-bottom 100l bath aren't brilliant, and if it's a proper
sized 150l, the performance is pathetic.
THey should either have designed it with a larger store (although then
it wouldn't go on the wall) or a larger burner.

As I say - a linsey-wolsey product.

It looks like it can give a pretty decent shower by most peoples
standards, or a couple of fairly modest showers at the same time.

I'd say it represents fairly good value for money, how much did your
boiler and store cost? Added to that there would be the cost of
getting an installer in to connect them together.

cheers,
Pete.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:26:27 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:29:23 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:48:10 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

Absolute minimum of 15lpm, preferably 20-25lpm per shower.

25 l/min per shower? Absolute irresponsible. The water used and
energy
used
to heat that is ridiculous.

No it isn't.

It is! I will not engage with any defence of such irresponsibility.
Mr
Blair will be making war on the likes you.

If he can remember what the subject was for more than 10 seconds.

Well those fascist violent people who want to kill for sport have been
legislated against,

This, of course, is what it is about - legislating against the
people.....

Legislating against very bad killing people.

and the Tories/royal family are implicated in breaching
the Commons to commit violent acts against democracy.

I really don't think that one of the
perpetrators being a friend of
Prince Harry "implicates the royal family".

No smoke withOUT fire.

I am appalled and
admire the way the government banned the scum.
The level of violence
perpetrated against our good policemen
was appalling.

I agree that this is inappropriate.

Of couse it is.

Now of course it will become one -
not because of animal welfare, but
because of inappropriate interference
in people's lives and the abuse
of power to do so.

Killing is killing, and it should not be for sport. Did you see the eyes on
those murderers? Appalling.

Now to ban bargain hunting.

So you're proposing to shut down Harrods?

That place is a pest when the sales are on. Have you the eyes of those
bargain hunters when the doors open?

"Pete C" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:03:27 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

You have clearly never seen a CB50 in action they fill 100 litres baths
no
problem, summer and winter.

It's irrelevant. The machine can't defy physics, no matter how much
you would like it o do so. The figures for filling even a
drop-in-the-bottom 100l bath aren't brilliant, and if it's a proper
sized 150l, the performance is pathetic.
THey should either have designed it with a larger store (although then
it wouldn't go on the wall) or a larger burner.

As I say - a linsey-wolsey product.

It looks like it can give a pretty decent shower by most peoples
standards, or a couple of fairly modest showers at the same time.

And that it can. His system can run out of hot water, and it will using 25
litres/min showers. The CB50 does not run out of hot water being two stage
flowrate combi.

I'd say it represents fairly good value for money, how much did your
boiler and store cost?

His costs the eath. He would have been better off having two combi's fed
from the storage tank by a booster pump. Then all the house would be on high
pressure hot and cold water.

I did similar in a house with a poor mains flowrate. I instaled a Gledhilll
Systemate heat bank and fed it off the cold water storage tank. Before
there was an awful large cylkidner with pipes and valves hanging off all
over the show making it look like a boiler room. It also had a noisy power
shower pump that looked awful taking up space too. Now a nice square box
with all pumps inside out of the way and a booster pump in the loft out of
the way. clothes can be stored on top on the Systemate too.

Looks like the one on the left he
http://www.gledhill.net/docs/index.htm

Full spec:
http://www.gledhill.net/docs/sm2000.htm

Added to that there would be the cost of
getting an installer in to connect them together.

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:19:04 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


Well those fascist violent people who want to kill for sport have been
legislated against,

This, of course, is what it is about - legislating against the
people.....

Legislating against very bad killing people.

Not really.

The fact that you term it "legislating against people" really does
give the game away as to the motivation.


and the Tories/royal family are implicated in breaching
the Commons to commit violent acts against democracy.

I really don't think that one of the
perpetrators being a friend of
Prince Harry "implicates the royal family".

No smoke withOUT fire.

Did the Sun say that?



Now of course it will become one -
not because of animal welfare, but
because of inappropriate interference
in people's lives and the abuse
of power to do so.

Killing is killing, and it should not be for sport. Did you see the eyes on
those murderers? Appalling.

So presumably anglers are the next on your agenda.?

.... or would that limit your profession as a master baiter?


Now to ban bargain hunting.

So you're proposing to shut down Harrods?

That place is a pest when the sales are on. Have you the eyes of those
bargain hunters when the doors open?

Day trippers from Milton Keynes presumably...


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:42:21 +0100, Pete C
wrote:

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:03:27 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

You have clearly never seen a CB50 in action they fill 100 litres baths no
problem, summer and winter.

It's irrelevant. The machine can't defy physics, no matter how much
you would like it o do so. The figures for filling even a
drop-in-the-bottom 100l bath aren't brilliant, and if it's a proper
sized 150l, the performance is pathetic.
THey should either have designed it with a larger store (although then
it wouldn't go on the wall) or a larger burner.

As I say - a linsey-wolsey product.

It looks like it can give a pretty decent shower by most peoples
standards, or a couple of fairly modest showers at the same time.


You can work out how long the water will last from the store - about
90 litres when mixed with cold accounting for a 6 minute shower at
15lpm. After that, it drops to 11lpm

The first is just about acceptable until the store runs out, the
second is **** poor.

There is no way in hell that this will feed two even modest showers
unless you consider low end electric showers acceptable.


I'd say it represents fairly good value for money,

It depends on whether you think it does the job. I don't think that
it does do anything beyond the needs of a fairly small house with one
bathroom, so it doesn't matter how cheap it is if it isn't suitable.

how much did your
boiler and store cost?

Boiler and cylinder together were about £1800.

I can run two showers or a shower and a bath very quickly and not have
to worry about them going cold or taking an eon to fill and run.

Added to that there would be the cost of
getting an installer in to connect them together.

No because the cylinder isn't pressurised.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:53:36 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Pete C" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:03:27 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

You have clearly never seen a CB50 in action they fill 100 litres baths
no
problem, summer and winter.

It's irrelevant. The machine can't defy physics, no matter how much
you would like it o do so. The figures for filling even a
drop-in-the-bottom 100l bath aren't brilliant, and if it's a proper
sized 150l, the performance is pathetic.
THey should either have designed it with a larger store (although then
it wouldn't go on the wall) or a larger burner.

As I say - a linsey-wolsey product.

It looks like it can give a pretty decent shower by most peoples
standards, or a couple of fairly modest showers at the same time.

And that it can. His system can run out of hot water, and it will using 25
litres/min showers. The CB50 does not run out of hot water being two stage
flowrate combi.

Of course it will - as soon as the little store runs out. Then it's
down to 11lpm of warm water.


I'd say it represents fairly good value for money, how much did your
boiler and store cost?

His costs the eath. He would have been better off having two combi's fed
from the storage tank by a booster pump. Then all the house would be on high
pressure hot and cold water.

Complete nonsense.

Why on earth would I install two high flow rate combis? This would
be the requirement to come close to the delivery capacity of the
storage system and then an upgrade to the gas supply would be needed
to run them.




I did similar in a house with a poor mains flowrate. I instaled a Gledhilll
Systemate heat bank and fed it off the cold water storage tank. Before
there was an awful large cylkidner with pipes and valves hanging off all
over the show making it look like a boiler room. It also had a noisy power
shower pump that looked awful taking up space too. Now a nice square box
with all pumps inside out of the way and a booster pump in the loft out of
the way. clothes can be stored on top on the Systemate too.

Looks like the one on the left he
http://www.gledhill.net/docs/index.htm

Are you the one on the right?


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:42:21 +0100, Pete C
wrote:

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:03:27 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

You have clearly never seen a CB50 in action they fill 100 litres baths
no
problem, summer and winter.

It's irrelevant. The machine can't defy physics, no matter how much
you would like it o do so. The figures for filling even a
drop-in-the-bottom 100l bath aren't brilliant, and if it's a proper
sized 150l, the performance is pathetic.
THey should either have designed it with a larger store (although then
it wouldn't go on the wall) or a larger burner.

As I say - a linsey-wolsey product.

It looks like it can give a pretty decent shower by most peoples
standards, or a couple of fairly modest showers at the same time.


You can work out how long the water will last from the store - about
90 litres when mixed with cold accounting for a 6 minute shower at
15lpm. After that, it drops to 11lpm

Oh my God more mentalist. The store stores water at least at 60C, we shower
approx at 38-40C as the water is being drawn off the boiler is
simultaneously re-heating. You have been told this so pay attention.

how much did your
boiler and store cost?

Boiler and cylinder together were about £1800.

My God! a house gas supply can give 212 cy foot per hour. Yu can buy two
combi's that consume close to that figure giving about 25 litre/min. And no
cylinders and a backup if one drops out. Lateral thinking me boy.

I can run two showers or a shower and a bath very quickly and not have
to worry about them going cold or taking an eon to fill and run.

Two combi's consuming 20 cu foot/hr will pour the water in me boy, pour it
in.

So two Alpha CB 50s would be well within a domestic gas supply and give you
showers in abundance and NEVER run out of water, and no tanks or cylinders
and natural,CH zoning of one down and one doing up.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:53:36 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Pete C" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:03:27 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

You have clearly never seen a CB50 in action they fill 100 litres
baths
no
problem, summer and winter.

It's irrelevant. The machine can't defy physics, no matter how much
you would like it o do so. The figures for filling even a
drop-in-the-bottom 100l bath aren't brilliant, and if it's a proper
sized 150l, the performance is pathetic.
THey should either have designed it with a larger store (although then
it wouldn't go on the wall) or a larger burner.

As I say - a linsey-wolsey product.

It looks like it can give a pretty decent shower by most peoples
standards, or a couple of fairly modest showers at the same time.

And that it can. His system can run out of hot water, and it will using
25
litres/min showers. The CB50 does not run out of hot water being two
stage
flowrate combi.

Of course it will - as soon as the little store runs out. Then it's
down to 11lpm of warm water.

Hot water me boy. You need to know this.

I'd say it represents fairly good value for money, how much did your
boiler and store cost?

His costs the eath. He would have been better off having two combi's fed
from the storage tank by a booster pump. Then all the house would be on
high
pressure hot and cold water.

Complete nonsense.

A better solution for you no doubt.

Why on earth would I install two high flow rate combis?

To give high flowrates.

This would
be the requirement to come close
to the delivery capacity of the
storage system and then an upgrade
to the gas supply would be needed
to run them.

Upgrade to the gas supply? The gas mains can provide 212 cu foot per hour,
which is approx 200,000 btus input.

I did similar in a house with a poor mains flowrate. I instaled a
Gledhilll
Systemate heat bank and fed it off the cold water storage tank. Before
there was an awful large cylkidner with pipes and valves hanging off all
over the show making it look like a boiler room. It also had a noisy
power
shower pump that looked awful taking up space too. Now a nice square box
with all pumps inside out of the way and a booster pump in the loft out
of
the way. clothes can be stored on top on the Systemate too.

Looks like the one on the left he
http://www.gledhill.net/docs/index.htm

Are you the one on the right?

No it said left.

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:39:41 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
..

Of course it will - as soon as the little store runs out. Then it's
down to 11lpm of warm water.

Hot water me boy. You need to know this.

40 degrees is skin temperature - I wouldn't describe it as hot.


I'd say it represents fairly good value for money, how much did your
boiler and store cost?

His costs the eath. He would have been better off having two combi's fed
from the storage tank by a booster pump. Then all the house would be on
high
pressure hot and cold water.

Complete nonsense.

A better solution for you no doubt.

Why on earth would I install two high flow rate combis?

To give high flowrates.

This would
be the requirement to come close
to the delivery capacity of the
storage system and then an upgrade
to the gas supply would be needed
to run them.

Upgrade to the gas supply? The gas mains can provide 212 cu foot per hour,
which is approx 200,000 btus input.

I don't deal in deprecated units.

This amounts to just under 60kW and is just about enough to run two
entry level 28kW boilers leaving nothing for other appliances.
An upgrade would be required.



I did similar in a house with a poor mains flowrate. I instaled a
Gledhilll
Systemate heat bank and fed it off the cold water storage tank. Before
there was an awful large cylkidner with pipes and valves hanging off all
over the show making it look like a boiler room. It also had a noisy
power
shower pump that looked awful taking up space too. Now a nice square box
with all pumps inside out of the way and a booster pump in the loft out
of
the way. clothes can be stored on top on the Systemate too.

Looks like the one on the left he
http://www.gledhill.net/docs/index.htm

Are you the one on the right?

No it said left.

We certainly know that.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:35:31 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .


You can work out how long the water will last from the store - about
90 litres when mixed with cold accounting for a 6 minute shower at
15lpm. After that, it drops to 11lpm

Oh my God more mentalist. The store stores water at least at 60C, we shower
approx at 38-40C as the water is being drawn off the boiler is
simultaneously re-heating. You have been told this so pay attention.


I did, and I also produced the complete calculation demonstrating how
poor the performance really is.




how much did your
boiler and store cost?

Boiler and cylinder together were about £1800.

My God! a house gas supply can give 212 cy foot per hour. Yu can buy two
combi's that consume close to that figure giving about 25 litre/min. And no
cylinders and a backup if one drops out. Lateral thinking me boy.

It is bad practice to use deprecated units. It is even worse to mix
them.

Your suggestion would produce 22lpm of warm water at 40 degrees and
require the entire supply to do it, leaving nothing for other
appliances.

It would still need roof storage in my case and seemingly in a lot of
other people's cases as well and still not protect against a failure
in either the electricly nor the gas supply.

In short no redundancy apart from appliance failure.

I have complete backup for all services and appliances and can get
superior performance so there is no point in worsening that.




I can run two showers or a shower and a bath very quickly and not have
to worry about them going cold or taking an eon to fill and run.

Two combi's consuming 20 cu foot/hr will pour the water in me boy, pour it
in.

Trickle, more like.


So two Alpha CB 50s would be well within a domestic gas supply

Right on the edge and requiring upgrade to run anything else.

and give you
showers in abundance and NEVER run out of water,

unless any single one of the services fails.

and no tanks or cylinders
and natural,CH zoning of one down and one doing up.


I don't live in a one up, one down.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:39:41 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.

Of course it will - as soon as the little store runs out. Then it's
down to 11lpm of warm water.

Hot water me boy. You need to know this.

40 degrees is skin temperature - I wouldn't describe it as hot.


I'd say it represents fairly good value for money, how much did your
boiler and store cost?

His costs the eath. He would have been better off having two combi's
fed
from the storage tank by a booster pump. Then all the house would be
on
high
pressure hot and cold water.

Complete nonsense.

A better solution for you no doubt.

Why on earth would I install two high flow rate combis?

To give high flowrates.

This would
be the requirement to come close
to the delivery capacity of the
storage system and then an upgrade
to the gas supply would be needed
to run them.

Upgrade to the gas supply? The gas mains can provide 212 cu foot per
hour,
which is approx 200,000 btus input.

I don't deal in deprecated units.

This amounts to just under 60kW and is just about enough to run two
entry level 28kW boilers leaving nothing for other appliances.
An upgrade would be required.

If a 1" gas main the meter can handle 100% overload. Easily 300 cu/foot hr.
There you go. You cam use two 40kW W-B Greenstars giving 32 litres/min for
2K and natural CH zoning up and down. One does one bathroom one the other.
Brilliant.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:35:31 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .


You can work out how long the water will last from the store - about
90 litres when mixed with cold accounting for a 6 minute shower at
15lpm. After that, it drops to 11lpm

Oh my God more mentalist. The store stores water at least at 60C, we
shower
approx at 38-40C as the water is being drawn off the boiler is
simultaneously re-heating. You have been told this so pay attention.

I did, and I also produced the complete calculation demonstrating how
poor the performance really is.

It was wrong.

how much did your
boiler and store cost?

Boiler and cylinder together were about £1800.

My God! a house gas supply can give 212 cu foot per hour. You can buy
two
combi's that consume close to that figure giving about 25 litre/min. And
no
cylinders and a backup if one drops out. Lateral thinking me boy.

It is bad practice to use deprecated units. It is even worse to mix
them.

Your suggestion would produce 22lpm of warm water

Stop making things up.

at 40 degrees and
require the entire supply to do it, leaving nothing for other
appliances.

It would still need roof storage in my case and seemingly in a lot of
other people's cases as well and still not protect against a failure
in either the electricly nor the gas supply.

In short no redundancy apart from appliance failure.

I have complete backup for all services and appliances and can get
superior performance so there is no point in worsening that.

A;All that expensive kit and space it takes up.

I can run two showers or a shower and a bath very quickly and not have
to worry about them going cold or taking an eon to fill and run.

Two combi's consuming 20 cu foot/hr will pour the water in me boy, pour
it
in.

Trickle, more like.

You really don't know.

So two Alpha CB 50s would be well within a domestic gas supply

Right on the edge and requiring upgrade to run anything else.

and give you
showers in abundance and
NEVER run out of water,

unless any single one of the services fails.

And Krakatoa could erupt too.

and no tanks or cylinders
and natural,CH zoning of one down and one doing up.


I don't live in a one up, one down.

Gosh....

So two Alpha CB 50s would be well within a domestic gas supply and give
you
showers in abundance and NEVER run out of water, and no tanks or cylinders
and natural,CH zoning of one down and one doing up.

But would still take over 5 minutes to fill a bath.

Christian.

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:00:51 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:39:41 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


If a 1" gas main the meter can handle 100% overload. Easily 300 cu/foot hr.
There you go. You cam use two 40kW W-B Greenstars giving 32 litres/min for
2K and natural CH zoning up and down. One does one bathroom one the other.
Brilliant.


So does Transco approve running their services in this way.?

Perhaps you could call them and ask and then post the name and number
of the person that you speak to so that people can check for
themselves before putting themselves in danger.








..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:09:08 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:35:31 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .


You can work out how long the water will last from the store - about
90 litres when mixed with cold accounting for a 6 minute shower at
15lpm. After that, it drops to 11lpm

Oh my God more mentalist. The store stores water at least at 60C, we
shower
approx at 38-40C as the water is being drawn off the boiler is
simultaneously re-heating. You have been told this so pay attention.

I did, and I also produced the complete calculation demonstrating how
poor the performance really is.

It was wrong.

Er no.

The equation of

Vc [Tf - Tc] = Vh [Th - Tf]

is the correct one to apply when liquids of different temperatures are
mixed.

I know that division and multiplication are a bit more difficult than
adding and taking away, but you'll get to that in next year's class.



how much did your
boiler and store cost?

Boiler and cylinder together were about £1800.

My God! a house gas supply can give 212 cu foot per hour. You can buy
two
combi's that consume close to that figure giving about 25 litre/min. And
no
cylinders and a backup if one drops out. Lateral thinking me boy.

It is bad practice to use deprecated units. It is even worse to mix
them.

Your suggestion would produce 22lpm of warm water

Stop making things up.

The arithmetic is quite clear.



at 40 degrees and
require the entire supply to do it, leaving nothing for other
appliances.

It would still need roof storage in my case and seemingly in a lot of
other people's cases as well and still not protect against a failure
in either the electricly nor the gas supply.

In short no redundancy apart from appliance failure.

I have complete backup for all services and appliances and can get
superior performance so there is no point in worsening that.

A;All that expensive kit and space it takes up.

I don't have a space problem for it, and more to the point is does the
required job.



I can run two showers or a shower and a bath very quickly and not have
to worry about them going cold or taking an eon to fill and run.

Two combi's consuming 20 cu foot/hr will pour the water in me boy, pour
it
in.

Trickle, more like.

You really don't know.

You need to read through the sums. Don't worry about the
multiplying and dividing - it's similar to the adding and taking away
- you just do it more times.


So two Alpha CB 50s would be well within a domestic gas supply

Right on the edge and requiring upgrade to run anything else.

and give you
showers in abundance and
NEVER run out of water,

unless any single one of the services fails.

And Krakatoa could erupt too.

In the last year, I have had failures of all three services at
different times.

It is quite common so depending on something needing all three is a
risk.





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
So two Alpha CB 50s would be well within a domestic gas supply and give
you
showers in abundance and NEVER run out of water, and no tanks or
cylinders
and natural,CH zoning of one down and one doing up.

But would still take over 5 minutes to fill a bath.

Christian.



I thought in general a bath was meant to be a relaxing experience, what is
the obsession about having it filling in less than 2 min?

And what happens to everyone when IMM enters a thread, OK, so he's an arse
but he does actually have some decent info on high flow rate combi's.

Andy and IMM need to take there personal wee chat over to e-mail after
about 5 posts here, when they both then start to repeat themselves ad
nauseum.


David

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:26:47 +0100, "David"
wrote:


"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
.net...
So two Alpha CB 50s would be well within a domestic gas supply and give
you
showers in abundance and NEVER run out of water, and no tanks or
cylinders
and natural,CH zoning of one down and one doing up.

But would still take over 5 minutes to fill a bath.

Christian.



I thought in general a bath was meant to be a relaxing experience, what is
the obsession about having it filling in less than 2 min?

Agreed, but imagine what happens when 4 people are competing to use
the bathroom facilities and it takes nearly 15 minutes to fill a bath.


And what happens to everyone when IMM enters a thread, OK, so he's an arse
but he does actually have some decent info on high flow rate combi's.

Check that one carefully.


Andy and IMM need to take there personal wee chat over to e-mail after
about 5 posts here, when they both then start to repeat themselves ad
nauseum.

I am happy to have an email conversation with anybody and frequently
do. However this does require an email address to use.



David



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

If a 1" gas main the meter can handle 100% overload. Easily 300 cu/foot
hr.
There you go. You cam use two 40kW W-B Greenstars giving 32 litres/min for
2K and natural CH zoning up and down. One does one bathroom one the
other.
Brilliant.

This doesn't even help with the bath filling problem, unless you've got a
hose from one bathroom to the other. Even if both were connected together to
combine their flows, the flow rate is still half that of a heat bank.

Also, many people with gas boilers also choose to have cooked dinners. I
hope you've left 15kW for the Sunday roast.

Christian.