He's generating low voltage 3 phase AC from a water powered turbine,
rectifying it to 24V DC and then using a inverter to generate 110V AC
(this is the USA). This is then wired to a standard USA plug which he
plugs into a wall socket - almost the equivalent of having an extension
lead with a main plug on each end

https://youtu.be/V82SVeVXKcA?t=450

He doesn't know much about electricity but his mate wired it to "code".

He uses a shop vac to start his generator by introducing a vacuum in the
pipe which is then maintained allowing water to flow faster than it
would with just a simple syphon arrangement.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Monday, 25 January 2021 at 00:21:24 UTC, alan_m wrote:
He's generating low voltage 3 phase AC from a water powered turbine,
rectifying it to 24V DC and then using a inverter to generate 110V AC
(this is the USA). This is then wired to a standard USA plug which he
plugs into a wall socket - almost the equivalent of having an extension
lead with a main plug on each end

https://youtu.be/V82SVeVXKcA?t=450

He doesn't know much about electricity but his mate wired it to "code".

He uses a shop vac to start his generator by introducing a vacuum in the
pipe which is then maintained allowing water to flow faster than it
would with just a simple syphon arrangement.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

I cannot see how that €˜Jesus€� lead from the inverter to the socket could possibly be code.

Richard

Does he have a death wish or merely wants to burn out parts of his wiring
perhaps?

It sounds like a lazy persons test idea. Its not going to actually cost much
to put the right switching in place between the mains and his other system
which we do hope is protected for overloads. grin.

Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"alan_m" wrote in message
...

He's generating low voltage 3 phase AC from a water powered turbine,
rectifying it to 24V DC and then using a inverter to generate 110V AC
(this is the USA). This is then wired to a standard USA plug which he
plugs into a wall socket - almost the equivalent of having an extension
lead with a main plug on each end

https://youtu.be/V82SVeVXKcA?t=450

He doesn't know much about electricity but his mate wired it to "code".

He uses a shop vac to start his generator by introducing a vacuum in the
pipe which is then maintained allowing water to flow faster than it would
with just a simple syphon arrangement.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Well anyone ever been appalled by the standard of wiring bodge ups in Spain
I have. Its a wonder most British tourists have not been electrocuted.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Tricky Dicky" wrote in message
...
On Monday, 25 January 2021 at 00:21:24 UTC, alan_m wrote:
He's generating low voltage 3 phase AC from a water powered turbine,
rectifying it to 24V DC and then using a inverter to generate 110V AC
(this is the USA). This is then wired to a standard USA plug which he
plugs into a wall socket - almost the equivalent of having an extension
lead with a main plug on each end

https://youtu.be/V82SVeVXKcA?t=450

He doesn't know much about electricity but his mate wired it to "code".

He uses a shop vac to start his generator by introducing a vacuum in the
pipe which is then maintained allowing water to flow faster than it
would with just a simple syphon arrangement.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

I cannot see how that 'Jesus" lead from the inverter to the socket could
possibly be code.

Richard

alan_m wrote:

He's generating low voltage 3 phase AC from a water powered turbine,
rectifying it to 24V DC and then using a inverter to generate 110V AC
(this is the USA). This is then wired to a standard USA plug which he
plugs into a wall socket - almost the equivalent of having an extension
lead with a main plug on each end

https://youtu.be/V82SVeVXKcA?t=450

He doesn't know much about electricity but his mate wired it to "code".

He uses a shop vac to start his generator by introducing a vacuum in the
pipe which is then maintained allowing water to flow faster than it
would with just a simple syphon arrangement.


Its still just a simple syphon. Hes just using the vacuum to clear the
air-lock to get it flowing.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 00:21:19 +0000, alan_m
wrote:


He's generating low voltage 3 phase AC from a water powered turbine,
rectifying it to 24V DC and then using a inverter to generate 110V AC
(this is the USA). This is then wired to a standard USA plug which he
plugs into a wall socket - almost the equivalent of having an extension
lead with a main plug on each end


Yebbut as you point out, it's America and 110 volts, so AIUI it's
unlikely to be lethal. Not to be repeated in the UK with 240 volts
though. AIUI lot of UK kit used by builders is rated 110v via a
step-down transformer, for just that reason: it's not lethal.

Kit used by builders is not only 110 V, but the supply is fed by a split
winding transformer, with the centre tapping earthed, so the power lines are
at + and - 55 V wrt earth (*). You still get a 110 V shock if you touch the
two terminals, but if you touch one terminal and earth (possibly the more
common "failure mode") then you only get a 55 V shock.


(*) OK, I know it's AC, so "+" and "-" don't really mean anything.

NY presented the following explanation :
so the power lines are at + and - 55 V wrt earth (*).

Not +ve and -ve, it is ac.

Not to mention the people who have been killed by CO poisoning
or fallen off balconies because Spanish balconies are very low.

And you should see the typical arrangement for instant showers
in South America.

Andrew

On 25/01/2021 10:18, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Well anyone ever been appalled by the standard of wiring bodge ups in Spain
I have. Its a wonder most British tourists have not been electrocuted.
Brian

On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 13:53:05 +0000, Andrew
wrote:

Not to mention the people who have been killed by CO poisoning
or fallen off balconies because Spanish balconies are very low.

And you should see the typical arrangement for instant showers
in South America.

Andrew

On 25/01/2021 10:18, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Well anyone ever been appalled by the standard of wiring bodge ups in Spain
I have. Its a wonder most British tourists have not been electrocuted.
Brian

You'll be relieved to hear that it's becoming almost impossible to buy
one now - at least in the Southern Cone. After a few horror-stories of
my own with those things I rather fancied buying one to bring home but
couldn't find a new one for sale. My plan had been to fit one in my
own shower and with my dark sense of humour leave exposed wires
twisted together and position the knife switch directly under the
spray. Nothing would have actually been connected - the real hot water
would still have come from the combi boiler as usual.

Nick

"Harry Bloomfield"; "Esq." wrote in message
...
NY presented the following explanation :
so the power lines are at + and - 55 V wrt earth (*).

Not +ve and -ve, it is ac.

Sorry, I thought I'd covered that in my asterisked footnote. I know it's AC.
What I meant was that the two wires to the appliance are not at 0 and 110 V
(RMS) wrt to earth, but instead are each at 55 V RMS with opposite polarity
wrt earth. I was using "+" and "-" as shortcut for that.

So for example there will be an instant when one wire is at + 77 V (55
sqrt(2)) and the other is at - 77 V wrt earth. Half a cycle later, the first
will be -77 and the second will be +77. There will still be 144 V peak or
110 V RMS between the two wires, but only 55/77 wrt earth.

Nick Odell presented the following explanation :
Nothing would have actually been connected - the real hot water
would still have come from the combi boiler as usual.

:-)

NY has brought this to us :
Sorry, I thought I'd covered that in my asterisked footnote.

Yes, you did - I missed it :-(

After serious thinking Tim Streater wrote :
It may be that Yank homes with their cheeseparing 110V can get two phases
supplied to their house quite easily and his arrangement may somehow
disconnect the phase he's feeding into.

They run their heavy appliances like ovens, on two phases I understand.

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
On 25 Jan 2021 at 00:21:19 GMT, alan_m wrote:
It may be that Yank homes with their cheeseparing 110V can get two phases
supplied to their house quite easily and his arrangement may somehow
disconnect the phase he's feeding into. What is worse though is that he's
shoving 5A or so through that ****ty two-pin socket. With their
notoriously
flimsy plugs/sockets, there will be some heating effect there that he may
need
to keep under obbo.

I thought their "****ty two-pin sockets" were rated at more than 5 A. I know
that high-power devices like tumble-driers and washing machines (on
presumably electric fires) tend to be hard-wired in 220 V (like our cookers
are) but portable devices like hair drivers and vacuum cleaners can be
powered from a 2-pin power socket, so those sockets must be rated for more
than 550 W (110 V, 5A).

Ah, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector says that 2-pin NEMA (US)
mains plugs are rated at 15 A.

Do modern US electrical standards mandate shrouded mains plug pins on new
appliances, to prevent a child getting their fingers onto the pins while the
plug is half in the socket and the pins are still connected? Or has that
European rule not made it over to the US yet because the voltage is lower?

On 25/01/2021 14:37, Nick Odell wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 13:53:05 +0000, Andrew
wrote:

Not to mention the people who have been killed by CO poisoning
or fallen off balconies because Spanish balconies are very low.

And you should see the typical arrangement for instant showers
in South America.

Andrew

On 25/01/2021 10:18, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Well anyone ever been appalled by the standard of wiring bodge ups in Spain
I have. Its a wonder most British tourists have not been electrocuted.
Brian

You'll be relieved to hear that it's becoming almost impossible to buy
one now - at least in the Southern Cone. After a few horror-stories of
my own with those things I rather fancied buying one to bring home but
couldn't find a new one for sale. My plan had been to fit one in my
own shower and with my dark sense of humour leave exposed wires
twisted together and position the knife switch directly under the
spray. Nothing would have actually been connected - the real hot water
would still have come from the combi boiler as usual.

Nick


Indeed, and some of the ones I saw had been installed to suit the
height of a typical South American, which is about 5 foot and a bit.
I felt sorry for the lanky Nordic folk who had to use them.

Chris Hogg wrote:

it's America and 110 volts, so AIUI it's
unlikely to be lethal. Not to be repeated in the UK with 240 volts
though. AIUI lot of UK kit used by builders is rated 110v via a
step-down transformer, for just that reason:

UK building site stuff is only 55V either side of earth, so even safer
than USA 110V stuff.

Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote

Well anyone ever been appalled by the standard
of wiring bodge ups in Spain I have. Its a wonder
most British tourists have not been electrocuted.

Why are they any more likely to get electrocuted
than the locals ? Or are you claiming that the locals
never use showers and only pom tourists ever do ?

"Tricky Dicky" wrote in message
...
On Monday, 25 January 2021 at 00:21:24 UTC, alan_m wrote:
He's generating low voltage 3 phase AC from a water powered turbine,
rectifying it to 24V DC and then using a inverter to generate 110V AC
(this is the USA). This is then wired to a standard USA plug which he
plugs into a wall socket - almost the equivalent of having an extension
lead with a main plug on each end

https://youtu.be/V82SVeVXKcA?t=450

He doesn't know much about electricity but his mate wired it to "code".

He uses a shop vac to start his generator by introducing a vacuum in the
pipe which is then maintained allowing water to flow faster than it
would with just a simple syphon arrangement.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

I cannot see how that 'Jesus" lead from the inverter to the socket could
possibly be code.

Richard

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
I thought their "****ty two-pin sockets" were rated at more than 5 A. I
know that high-power devices like tumble-driers and washing machines (on
presumably electric fires) tend to be hard-wired in 220 V (like our
cookers are) but portable devices like hair drivers and vacuum cleaners
can be powered from a 2-pin power socket, so those sockets must be rated
for more than 550 W (110 V, 5A).

Ah, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector says that 2-pin NEMA
(US) mains plugs are rated at 15 A.

They may be rated at 15A but the fire danger is still real enough. Partly
because the current is twice as high as we'd have it (so four times the
heating effect in the plug/socket) but also because their plugs are
unbelievably flimsy. Describing them as "****ty" is just me being polite.

Are you saying that a plug and a socket that are stated as being rated at 15
A can't really be used for that current because of the risk of overheating?
If they overheat, doesn't that mean (by definition) that they *aren't* rated
at 15 A?

And in fact you were even concerned that passing *5* A through the plug and
socket might cause overheating problems. So what *is* the maximum safe
current that does not cause overheating? Even less than 5 A?



I think in fact the problem is that those thin pins, and the fairly small
contact area between pin and socket, aren't *really* rated at 15 A even
though it stated that they are. So it's the rating that is wrong.

Here in the UK, if the plug is rated for 13A, that means it is safe to run a
3-bar electric fire (3 kW, which is 12.5 A at 240 V) through that plug and
socket without it overheating to dangerous levels (melting of insulation) no
matter how long it is left running. Presumably there is an equivalent
real-world figure for US 2- or 3-pin plugs - and it may well not be as high
as the stated 15 A!

On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 04:50:23 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile pest's latest troll**** unread

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

"NY" wrote in message
...
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
On 25 Jan 2021 at 00:21:19 GMT, alan_m wrote:
It may be that Yank homes with their cheeseparing 110V can get two phases
supplied to their house quite easily and his arrangement may somehow
disconnect the phase he's feeding into. What is worse though is that he's
shoving 5A or so through that ****ty two-pin socket. With their
notoriously
flimsy plugs/sockets, there will be some heating effect there that he may
need
to keep under obbo.

I thought their "****ty two-pin sockets" were rated at more than 5 A. I
know that high-power devices like tumble-driers and washing machines (on
presumably electric fires) tend to be hard-wired in 220 V (like our
cookers are) but portable devices like hair drivers and vacuum cleaners
can be powered from a 2-pin power socket, so those sockets must be rated
for more than 550 W (110 V, 5A).

Ah, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector says that 2-pin NEMA (US)
mains plugs are rated at 15 A.

Do modern US electrical standards mandate shrouded mains plug pins on new
appliances, to prevent a child getting their fingers onto the pins while
the plug is half .in the socket and the pins are still connected?

Nope.

Or has that European rule not made it over to the US yet because the
voltage is lower?

They couldnt care less what Europe does.

"NY" wrote in message
...
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
I thought their "****ty two-pin sockets" were rated at more than 5 A. I
know that high-power devices like tumble-driers and washing machines (on
presumably electric fires) tend to be hard-wired in 220 V (like our
cookers are) but portable devices like hair drivers and vacuum cleaners
can be powered from a 2-pin power socket, so those sockets must be rated
for more than 550 W (110 V, 5A).

Ah, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector says that 2-pin NEMA
(US) mains plugs are rated at 15 A.

They may be rated at 15A but the fire danger is still real enough. Partly
because the current is twice as high as we'd have it (so four times the
heating effect in the plug/socket) but also because their plugs are
unbelievably flimsy. Describing them as "****ty" is just me being polite.

Are you saying that a plug and a socket that are stated as being rated at
15 A can't really be used for that current because of the risk of
overheating? If they overheat, doesn't that mean (by definition) that they
*aren't* rated at 15 A?

And in fact you were even concerned that passing *5* A through the plug
and socket might cause overheating problems. So what *is* the maximum safe
current that does not cause overheating? Even less than 5 A?



I think in fact the problem is that those thin pins, and the fairly small
contact area between pin and socket, aren't *really* rated at 15 A even
though it stated that they are. So it's the rating that is wrong.

Nope, thats the rating and it isnt wrong.

Here in the UK, if the plug is rated for 13A, that means it is safe to run
a 3-bar electric fire (3 kW, which is 12.5 A at 240 V) through that plug
and socket without it overheating to dangerous levels (melting of
insulation) no matter how long it is left running. Presumably there is an
equivalent real-world figure for US 2- or 3-pin plugs - and it may well
not be as high as the stated 15 A!

Its 15A

On 25/01/2021 11:12, Chris Hogg wrote:

Yebbut as you point out, it's America and 110 volts, so AIUI it's
unlikely to be lethal. Not to be repeated in the UK with 240 volts
though. AIUI lot of UK kit used by builders is rated 110v via a
step-down transformer, for just that reason: it's not lethal.

Don't bet your life on it.

Bill

Tim Streater wrote:
On 25 Jan 2021 at 00:21:19 GMT, alan_m wrote:

He's generating low voltage 3 phase AC from a water powered turbine,
rectifying it to 24V DC and then using a inverter to generate 110V AC
(this is the USA). This is then wired to a standard USA plug which he
plugs into a wall socket - almost the equivalent of having an extension
lead with a main plug on each end

https://youtu.be/V82SVeVXKcA?t=450

He doesn't know much about electricity but his mate wired it to "code".

He uses a shop vac to start his generator by introducing a vacuum in the
pipe which is then maintained allowing water to flow faster than it
would with just a simple syphon arrangement.

I see his turbine is at the top. Presumably, since he's doing a syphon he's
relying on the low point being no more than 33 ft or so below the top (which
it is in his case). I was minded to wonder whether the setup would be more
efficient if he had the turbine at the bottom instead. I suppose his setup is
simpler because he doesn't have to arrange, at the top, that the take-off pipe
stay below the water surface level until it can start to drop vertically.

Nice idea about the tennis ball - which is chaos theory in action.

It may be that Yank homes with their cheeseparing 110V can get two phases
supplied to their house quite easily and his arrangement may somehow
disconnect the phase he's feeding into. What is worse though is that he's
shoving 5A or so through that ****ty two-pin socket. With their notoriously
flimsy plugs/sockets, there will be some heating effect there that he may need
to keep under obbo.


Since my heat is off here, and I'm heating electrically as a backup
and have a heater per room, I'm currently drawing 8.8kW through
a series of those flimsy plugs/sockets.

If you search through the dross at the hardware store, you can
find slightly better outlets with nicer contact action. If an outlet
is worn, you replace it. For example, I replaced my kitchen kettle one.
And replaced the outdoor outlet for the electric mower.

The electric dryer is on 230V and has a four pin socket.
The stove with oven, is on 230V and has a four pin socket.
That socket is a nice design. And the insertion/removal force
does not make it "intended as a convenience outlet". Those
connectors are rated 230V 30A.

The breakers take multiple positions, and some are two breakers
with a common handle, or even four breakers with a common handle.
Single breakers for 115V 15A fill the rest of the circuits. We plug
electric kettles or 115V electric lawnmowers into such outlets. Our
kettles don't heat water as fast as yours do.

The only thing which is really dire, is the dalliance with aluminium
wire. Surely the idea from hell. You need Al-Cu outlets for that.
And I doubt that's even code any more, because it was a bad idea.
But you can still buy Chinese motors wound with Al wire inside.
It wasn't the Al itself which was bad, but the mixture of metals
involved in connectorisation.

Pole (Can)
Transformer
___________ half the panel off this phase
|| /
|| \
|| /
|| \___________ use both phases for 230V loads
|| /
|| \
|| /
|| \___________ half the panel off this phase

On a stove, the stove-top elements run from 115V, the oven
element (bottom) or broiler element (top) run from 230V.
The four pin 30A connector gives access to all three wires
above, plus I presume the fourth pin is green safety ground.

Devices are randomly fused. ATX power supplies have a Slo-Blo
in the casing. A kettle would not have a fuse, but has a
thermal cutout. The breakers take time to respond, and
on a slight overload on a branch circuit, might take
five minutes to trip. On a gross overload (about 5x rated),
the breaker will open with some speed.

Things that contribute to a bad reputation, are not using
a panel properly for a job. The wiring is quite conservative,
if you follow the code today. For example, in a properly
wired kitchen, you could plug a kettle into *every* socket
hole, as the outlets are split, and each hole gets its own
wire. Other rooms in the house, run a two-hole outlet plate
off a single cable. So only one kettle per two-hole plate.
I could not run two electric heaters off a bedroom two-hole
plate.

Some houses have two, or even three panels in them. Mine
only needs the one panel, as it's relatively small. A McMansion
would have more panels.

And there's a proliferation of leakage sensors in the panel
now, but I don't have an ordered list to show you. I'm sure
if I saw a code-compliant installation, I would probably
freak out at the complexity and conservative-ness. We've
run lekky with much less pompous code in the past. The
code today is built like a brick ****house. It's too bad
that my (rural quality) distribution on the street was
not built to the same lofty standard as the panel wiring
plan you have to follow today, inside the house.

The house I was born in, which followed an older code,
I could not electrically heat the house without blowing
fuses, so I'd be pretty cold. In this house, I'm comfortable,
and it's the usual temperature in here, at 8.8kW. I started
out at 9.6kW, but that was slightly too much. The thermostats
on the heater are not properly designed, so I'm just manually
balancing temp as weather outside dictates. For a home
built to R2000 standard, you wouldn't need nearly as much
electricity for emergency heat.

It will cost me roughly $32 in local currency, to heat the
house per day in this way. That's about 7X what the natural
gas to do the same job, would cost.

Paul

Paul wrote:

The only thing which is really dire, is the dalliance with aluminium
wire.

And the wire nuts? :-P

Andy Burns wrote:
Paul wrote:

The only thing which is really dire, is the dalliance with aluminium
wire.

And the wire nuts? :-P

Sure, there are wire nuts here.

But for outlet plugs, those are screwdown and reasonably secure.

Wire nuts work fine to. Even some appliances use them
internally. There are problems if you mix materials
that don't belong in them. Like say a home handyman
slaps a solid wire and a stranded wire in, and tries to
tighten it up. That doesn't end well.

As long as you assemble a wire nut, disassemble it
and admire what you've done to the wire, then reassemble,
you'll be fine. If it beats the wire to ****, or is
obviously not compressing properly, then you have to
ask yourself what sin you've committed. From that point
of view, as long as you exhibit curiosity about how
they work, you're likely to be fine. But I know not
everyone is as inquisitive.

Paul

On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 11:04:37 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Nope.

LOL!!! ****ed up auto-contradicting senile pest!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On 26 Jan 2021 at 00:58:16 GMT, ""Rod Speed""
wrote:



"NY" wrote in message
...
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
I thought their "****ty two-pin sockets" were rated at more than 5 A. I
know that high-power devices like tumble-driers and washing machines (on
presumably electric fires) tend to be hard-wired in 220 V (like our
cookers are) but portable devices like hair drivers and vacuum cleaners
can be powered from a 2-pin power socket, so those sockets must be rated
for more than 550 W (110 V, 5A).

Ah, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector says that 2-pin NEMA
(US) mains plugs are rated at 15 A.

They may be rated at 15A but the fire danger is still real enough. Partly
because the current is twice as high as we'd have it (so four times the
heating effect in the plug/socket) but also because their plugs are
unbelievably flimsy. Describing them as "****ty" is just me being polite.

Are you saying that a plug and a socket that are stated as being rated at
15 A can't really be used for that current because of the risk of
overheating? If they overheat, doesn't that mean (by definition) that they
*aren't* rated at 15 A?

And in fact you were even concerned that passing *5* A through the plug
and socket might cause overheating problems. So what *is* the maximum safe
current that does not cause overheating? Even less than 5 A?



I think in fact the problem is that those thin pins, and the fairly small
contact area between pin and socket, aren't *really* rated at 15 A even
though it stated that they are. So it's the rating that is wrong.

Nope, thats the rating and it isnt wrong.

Here in the UK, if the plug is rated for 13A, that means it is safe to run
a 3-bar electric fire (3 kW, which is 12.5 A at 240 V) through that plug
and socket without it overheating to dangerous levels (melting of
insulation) no matter how long it is left running. Presumably there is an
equivalent real-world figure for US 2- or 3-pin plugs - and it may well
not be as high as the stated 15 A!

Its 15A

Despite the rating and the fact that they often work alright, it's not
uncommon for UK socket/plug combinations to overheat with a long term load
around 10-12 amps.

--
Roger Hayter

On 26/01/2021 05:12, Paul wrote:

On a stove, the stove-top elements run from 115V, the oven
element (bottom) or broiler element (top) run from 230V.
The four pin 30A connector gives access to all three wires
above, plus I presume the fourth pin is green safety ground.

What power rating are these? Is that the right way around? the stove-top
elements are usually higher powered than the ovens, so I'd have expected
them to be on 230V.

Our stove-top (actually a separate induction hob) elements (4 elements)
total a maximum of 9.7kW, so can pull 40A at 240V. Okay there is
diversity, but not immediately if on the odd occasion that you power up
all four at once and all are heating up.

Even using just the two largest elements (3.7kw and 2.8kw on boost -
common when starting with two cold pans) can take 27A. And it would not
be unusual to be boiling a pan of water on a third (2.8kw - unboosted)
element.

On 26/01/2021 05:12, Paul wrote:

The house I was born in, which followed an older code,
I could not electrically heat the house without blowing
fuses, so I'd be pretty cold. In this house, I'm comfortable,
and it's the usual temperature in here, at 8.8kW. I started
out at 9.6kW, but that was slightly too much. The thermostats
on the heater are not properly designed, so I'm just manually
balancing temp as weather outside dictates. For a home
built to R2000 standard, you wouldn't need nearly as much
electricity for emergency heat.

It will cost me roughly $32 in local currency, to heat the
house per day in this way. That's about 7X what the natural
gas to do the same job, would cost.

Â*Â* Paul

Ouch. £18.40p per day according to the FX pages
on BBC 'teletext'.

Does anyone install air-source heatpumps in Canada ?.
Would they even work ??

How much are you paying per kWH ?.

Steve Walker wrote:
On 26/01/2021 05:12, Paul wrote:

On a stove, the stove-top elements run from 115V, the oven
element (bottom) or broiler element (top) run from 230V.
The four pin 30A connector gives access to all three wires
above, plus I presume the fourth pin is green safety ground.

What power rating are these? Is that the right way around? the stove-top
elements are usually higher powered than the ovens, so I'd have expected
them to be on 230V.

Our stove-top (actually a separate induction hob) elements (4 elements)
total a maximum of 9.7kW, so can pull 40A at 240V. Okay there is
diversity, but not immediately if on the odd occasion that you power up
all four at once and all are heating up.

Even using just the two largest elements (3.7kw and 2.8kw on boost -
common when starting with two cold pans) can take 27A. And it would not
be unusual to be boiling a pan of water on a third (2.8kw - unboosted)
element.

On the North American 230/115V system, stove-top elements
run at power levels of 750W or 1500W. The stove might have two
large diameter Calrod elements as the 1500W ones, and
two smaller Calrod elements as 750W. You can boil eggs
in the morning on the small ones, and operate a pressure
cooker on the 1500W ones.

I don't know off hand, what power the oven elements run at.

If everything is switched on, on the stove, including the
drawer heater, it might have totaled around 11kW (I think
there was a "name plate rating" in the fuse panel in the back).
I'd had to work on that stove quite a few times, repairing wires to
stove-top elements, until it got to the point the wire
had run out of slack. I only took enough wire off each time
to make the repair, and didn't waste the stuff, because I
knew some day, I'd run out of wire. When the operator cleans
under the element by flipping it up, that puts bending
stress on the wire.

The oven elements were an ambitious design. The body of the
connectors in the oven, was ceramic, and there were some
generous contacts for the matching "fingers" on the stove
elements. But eventually, something had had enough in there,
and kinda burned up, and the electrician, rather than
fitting new connectors, just found a way of wiring the
element permanently. Since the element doesn't move, and
you can sort of clean around it (when it cools off), the
idea of removing the connector from the picture wasn't
so bad.

A lot of people would replace old kit like that, at the
drop of a hat, but when you're used to all the quirks,
you stick with what you're familiar with. Just as you
have recipes marked "30 minutes at gas mark 4",
that stove is also calibrated and the settings recorded
in the big recipe book. If you took out the hardware,
all that calibration would be lost :-/

Paul

Andrew wrote:
On 26/01/2021 05:12, Paul wrote:

The house I was born in, which followed an older code,
I could not electrically heat the house without blowing
fuses, so I'd be pretty cold. In this house, I'm comfortable,
and it's the usual temperature in here, at 8.8kW. I started
out at 9.6kW, but that was slightly too much. The thermostats
on the heater are not properly designed, so I'm just manually
balancing temp as weather outside dictates. For a home
built to R2000 standard, you wouldn't need nearly as much
electricity for emergency heat.

It will cost me roughly $32 in local currency, to heat the
house per day in this way. That's about 7X what the natural
gas to do the same job, would cost.

Paul

Ouch. £18.40p per day according to the FX pages
on BBC 'teletext'.

Does anyone install air-source heatpumps in Canada ?.
Would they even work ??

How much are you paying per kWH ?.

In local currency, $0.25 per kWH during "peak" and
around $0.08 during the night. With the lekky running
24 hours at constant power level, you have to work out
the "blend" of X hours at peak and Y hours at off-peak.

I have air conditioning here, but it was never intended
for heating, and the price adder for the hardware
would make dual-mode a prohibitive novelty. Ground source
would make sense, whereas air source heat pumps, there'd be
two narrow intervals where it could be used. Typically
during these weeks of the year, an air source heat pump
here would be switched off, and you'd be on your backup
solution (natural gas). For the most part, it wouldn't
work at the moment. Two days ago, the output from a
heatpump would have been zero, if it was air source.
As of this morning, there would be a dribble coming
from an air source heat pump.

And there's paperwork if you do ground source. They're
particularly picky about defacing rivers or streams to
get your way. Digging a hole in the back yard would be OK.

When I run air conditioning here, I run the AC on
off-peak only. And conditions in the house are particularly
brutal around 5PM.

The plan wasn't to be running this way for very long,
but until I get the part for the heat, I'm stuck with
this solution for now. The part is covered under
warranty, which is why it doesn't make sense for
me to order one.

And on these furnaces, the air inducer always wears out.
Why they can't stock these, remains a mystery. Good service
means nothing to these people. You get better service
from criminals making license plates.

Paul

NY wrote:


Here in the UK, if the plug is rated for 13A, that means it is safe to run a
3-bar electric fire (3 kW, which is 12.5 A at 240 V) through that plug and
socket without it overheating to dangerous levels (melting of insulation) no
matter how long it is left running.

I dont believe that this is the case. Real life experience indicates that
they DO frequently overheat with 3kW continuous loads

Electric vehicle €œGranny chargers€� designed to plug into a standard 13 amp
socket are all de-rated to 10 amps for this reason.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 26 Jan 2021 14:00:48 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

NY wrote:


Here in the UK, if the plug is rated for 13A, that means it is safe to run a
3-bar electric fire (3 kW, which is 12.5 A at 240 V) through that plug and
socket without it overheating to dangerous levels (melting of insulation) no
matter how long it is left running.

I don’t believe that this is the case. Real life experience indicates that
they DO frequently overheat with 3kW continuous loads

Electric vehicle “Granny chargers” designed to plug into a standard 13 amp
socket are all de-rated to 10 amps for this reason.

That certainly indicates that more thought has gone into the problem
than I've put into it. In my, rather limited, experience hot plugs
have always been caused by loose connections between the wires and the
pins. Whether they've worked loose or were never tightened up properly
in the first place, screwing them down firmly has always fixed it for
me.


Nick

In article , Nick Odell
wrote:
On 26 Jan 2021 14:00:48 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

NY wrote:


Here in the UK, if the plug is rated for 13A, that means it is safe to
run a 3-bar electric fire (3 kW, which is 12.5 A at 240 V) through
that plug and socket without it overheating to dangerous levels
(melting of insulation) no matter how long it is left running.

I don’t believe that this is the case. Real life experience indicates
that they DO frequently overheat with 3kW continuous loads

Electric vehicle “Granny chargers” designed to plug into a standard 13
amp socket are all de-rated to 10 amps for this reason.

That certainly indicates that more thought has gone into the problem than
I've put into it. In my, rather limited, experience hot plugs have always
been caused by loose connections between the wires and the pins. Whether
they've worked loose or were never tightened up properly in the first
place, screwing them down firmly has always fixed it for me.

I once met it where the screws in the socket hadn't been properly tightened
- with a permanent winter load of 2kW. It was a timber listed building,
too.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 26/01/2021 13:36, Paul wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
On 26/01/2021 05:12, Paul wrote:

On a stove, the stove-top elements run from 115V, the oven
element (bottom) or broiler element (top) run from 230V.
The four pin 30A connector gives access to all three wires
above, plus I presume the fourth pin is green safety ground.

What power rating are these? Is that the right way around? the
stove-top elements are usually higher powered than the ovens, so I'd
have expected them to be on 230V.

Our stove-top (actually a separate induction hob) elements (4
elements) total a maximum of 9.7kW, so can pull 40A at 240V. Okay
there is diversity, but not immediately if on the odd occasion that
you power up all four at once and all are heating up.

Even using just the two largest elements (3.7kw and 2.8kw on boost -
common when starting with two cold pans) can take 27A. And it would
not be unusual to be boiling a pan of water on a third (2.8kw -
unboosted) element.

On the North American 230/115V system, stove-top elements
run at power levels of 750W or 1500W.

Ah, a lot lower than I would have expected, roughly half of what our's has.

The stove might have two
large diameter Calrod elements as the 1500W ones, and
two smaller Calrod elements as 750W. You can boil eggs
in the morning on the small ones, and operate a pressure
cooker on the 1500W ones.

I don't know off hand, what power the oven elements run at.

I can't find the information for the individual ovens on ours, but there
is a bottom fan oven and a samller top oven/grill. Together they total 5.9kW

If everything is switched on, on the stove, including the
drawer heater, it might have totaled around 11kW (I think
there was a "name plate rating" in the fuse panel in the back).
I'd had to work on that stove quite a few times, repairing wires to
stove-top elements, until it got to the point the wire
had run out of slack. I only took enough wire off each time
to make the repair, and didn't waste the stuff, because I
knew some day, I'd run out of wire. When the operator cleans
under the element by flipping it up, that puts bending
stress on the wire.

I know the type. My parents used to have similar flip-up elements on
their cooker - I've only had gas rings up until recently, but we have
now switched to an electric induction hob, as my wife has both osteo
arthritis and rheumatoid arthritis and struggled with cleaning up if she
was cooking. The induction hob just has wipe clean glass - not even any
control knobs to get in the way, as it is touch control.

The oven elements were an ambitious design. The body of the
connectors in the oven, was ceramic, and there were some
generous contacts for the matching "fingers" on the stove
elements. But eventually, something had had enough in there,
and kinda burned up, and the electrician, rather than
fitting new connectors, just found a way of wiring the
element permanently. Since the element doesn't move, and
you can sort of clean around it (when it cools off), the
idea of removing the connector from the picture wasn't
so bad.

I think my parents one had a similar arrangement - something like large,
fixed, spade connectors on the ring.

A lot of people would replace old kit like that, at the
drop of a hat, but when you're used to all the quirks,
you stick with what you're familiar with. Just as you
have recipes marked "30 minutes at gas mark 4",
that stove is also calibrated and the settings recorded
in the big recipe book. If you took out the hardware,
all that calibration would be lost :-/

We've got used to where to set the hob powers quite quickly. The oven
are marked in °C, whereas the old one was in Gas Mark, but that is no
problem, as we also used to have a combination microwave that was in °C
and I struggled to remember the Gas Mark settings anyway.

On 26/01/2021 14:00, Tim+ wrote:
NY wrote:


Here in the UK, if the plug is rated for 13A, that means it is safe to run a
3-bar electric fire (3 kW, which is 12.5 A at 240 V) through that plug and
socket without it overheating to dangerous levels (melting of insulation) no
matter how long it is left running.

I dont believe that this is the case. Real life experience indicates that
they DO frequently overheat with 3kW continuous loads

It is common. However, good quality plugs and sockets, with properly
terminated wires don't overheat. I've been in the test labs (back in the
'80s and '90s) and seen how they ran them in heated cabinets on high
loads, for long periods of testing; while others were repeatedly
inserted and removed, under (lower) loads, by air rams; switches
operated on and off 100s of thousands of times.

The cheap and nasty stuff available now is another matter!

Electric vehicle €œGranny chargers€� designed to plug into a standard 13 amp
socket are all de-rated to 10 amps for this reason.

That makes sense, as they can't know the quality of socket that they are
being placed into.

On 25/01/2021 18:28, NY wrote:
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
I thought their "****ty two-pin sockets" were rated at more than 5 A.
I know that high-power devices like tumble-driers and washing
machines (on presumably electric fires) tend to be hard-wired in 220
V (like our cookers are) but portable devices like hair drivers and
vacuum cleaners can be powered from a 2-pin power socket, so those
sockets must be rated for more than 550 W (110 V, 5A).

Ah, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector says that 2-pin NEMA
(US) mains plugs are rated at 15 A.

They may be rated at 15A but the fire danger is still real enough. Partly
because the current is twice as high as we'd have it (so four times the
heating effect in the plug/socket) but also because their plugs are
unbelievably flimsy. Describing them as "****ty" is just me being polite.

Are you saying that a plug and a socket that are stated as being rated
at 15 A can't really be used for that current because of the risk of
overheating? If they overheat, doesn't that mean (by definition) that
they *aren't* rated at 15 A?

And in fact you were even concerned that passing *5* A through the plug
and socket might cause overheating problems. So what *is* the maximum
safe current that does not cause overheating? Even less than 5 A?

It will depend a lot on how well the pins are in good contact with the
socket. US home wiring runs rather warm by our standards. They have a
lot of house fires caused by trailing leads overheating by comparison.

I think in fact the problem is that those thin pins, and the fairly
small contact area between pin and socket, aren't *really* rated at 15 A
even though it stated that they are. So it's the rating that is wrong.

The rating is sort of right for a nice new one with no oxidation and
fresh clean spring contacts. It goes downhill quickly from there.

Here in the UK, if the plug is rated for 13A, that means it is safe to
run a 3-bar electric fire (3 kW, which is 12.5 A at 240 V) through that
plug and socket without it overheating to dangerous levels (melting of
insulation) no matter how long it is left running. Presumably there is
an equivalent real-world figure for US 2- or 3-pin plugs - and it may
well not be as high as the stated 15 A!

I have seen UK 13A sockets melted by the use of a 3kW fan heater load on
a cold day when it never really got up to temperature at all. Nothing
wrong inside the plug some corrosion from damp in the wall socket.

2.4kW aka 10A is now the recommended maximum load for UK nominally 13A
plugs. They do run very hot just from the fuse alone at 13A.

US and continental plugs don't have the fuse self heating problem to
contend with which gives them a bit more margin to dissipate waste heat
from the connection between plug and socket.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Tim Streater wrote:
On 26 Jan 2021 at 08:45:55 GMT, Paul wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:
Paul wrote:

The only thing which is really dire, is the dalliance with aluminium
wire.

And the wire nuts? :-P
Sure, there are wire nuts here.

Wire nuts, eh? Gosh, that's modern. The house I had (admittedly 35 years ago)
was built in the '30s (supposedly by a property developer for his mistress)
but was nice for a small house. It was all lathe and plaster, knob and tube.
Been demolished now, and replaced by what looks like a glass factory.


Well, sometimes in a house, you'll find one of these boxes. That at least
allows you to "decode" what the installer has done, within a room.

https://as2.ftcdn.net/jpg/01/27/72/5...V513ATlV.j pg

As long as the operator "calibrates" the wire nut and the
wire gauge, I don't have a problem with their usage. I've
taken apart a bodge and spotted it was never going to work
right, unless the materials were better matched. You
can't be fitting a load of dissimilar things into one
of those, because it won't compress all the items and
give a gas-tight connection.

https://www.do-it-yourself-help.com/...cal-wires.html

The packaging for the wire nuts (Marettes) usually has a
list of mixes of wire gauges that fit within a certain
color.

Some of those web pages comment, that the alternative,
putting two wires under a screw head, is not a good idea.
So that's the alternative.

Paul

In article , Roger Hayter
writes
On 26 Jan 2021 at 00:58:16 GMT, ""Rod Speed""
wrote:



"NY" wrote in message
...
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
I thought their "****ty two-pin sockets" were rated at more than 5 A. I
know that high-power devices like tumble-driers and washing machines (on
presumably electric fires) tend to be hard-wired in 220 V (like our
cookers are) but portable devices like hair drivers and vacuum cleaners
can be powered from a 2-pin power socket, so those sockets must be rated
for more than 550 W (110 V, 5A).

Ah, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector says that 2-pin NEMA
(US) mains plugs are rated at 15 A.

They may be rated at 15A but the fire danger is still real enough. Partly
because the current is twice as high as we'd have it (so four times the
heating effect in the plug/socket) but also because their plugs are
unbelievably flimsy. Describing them as "****ty" is just me being polite.

Are you saying that a plug and a socket that are stated as being rated at
15 A can't really be used for that current because of the risk of
overheating? If they overheat, doesn't that mean (by definition) that they
*aren't* rated at 15 A?

And in fact you were even concerned that passing *5* A through the plug
and socket might cause overheating problems. So what *is* the maximum safe
current that does not cause overheating? Even less than 5 A?



I think in fact the problem is that those thin pins, and the fairly small
contact area between pin and socket, aren't *really* rated at 15 A even
though it stated that they are. So it's the rating that is wrong.

Nope, thats the rating and it isnt wrong.

Here in the UK, if the plug is rated for 13A, that means it is safe to run
a 3-bar electric fire (3 kW, which is 12.5 A at 240 V) through that plug
and socket without it overheating to dangerous levels (melting of
insulation) no matter how long it is left running. Presumably there is an
equivalent real-world figure for US 2- or 3-pin plugs - and it may well
not be as high as the stated 15 A!

Its 15A

Despite the rating and the fact that they often work alright, it's not
uncommon for UK socket/plug combinations to overheat with a long term load
around 10-12 amps.

Indeed. Good reason for buying quality stuff.
--
bert

On 27/01/2021 21:11, bert wrote:

Despite the rating and the fact that they often work alright, it's not
uncommon for UK socket/plug combinations to overheat with a long term
load
around 10-12 amps.

Indeed. Good reason for buying quality stuff.
Mums washing machine did that on an MK plug back in the 1960s
no idea why


--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain