I'm looking for fibreglass loft insulation that comes wrapped in a plastic
wrapper, to prevent the installer having to handle the fibreglass. This is
for two reasons: one is the loft is very awkward to work in, so it's hard
not to come into contact with the insulation, and the second is the cat
likes to go in there if somebody left it open, and she then licks all the
fibres off herself

The popular brand is Knauf 'Space Blanket' which is only sold in the sheds,
but nobody seems to have any stock of that (Wickes has a few rolls in random
stores but not for delivery, and at 3x the price of un-encapsulated). I
came across another brand called 'Super Loft Blanket' from a company called
U-spec of St Helens, but their distributor appears to be out of stock too
(in the 170mm thickness).

Are there any other brands or sources of this stuff?

(The alternative no-itch product is polyester fleece, but the nice thing
about Space Blanket is the wrapping is supposed to be silvered mylar film to
reduce thermal radiation - kills two birds with one stone)

Thanks
Theo

On 15/11/2020 22:35, Theo wrote:
I'm looking for fibreglass loft insulation that comes wrapped in a plastic
wrapper, to prevent the installer having to handle the fibreglass. This is
for two reasons: one is the loft is very awkward to work in, so it's hard
not to come into contact with the insulation, and the second is the cat
likes to go in there if somebody left it open, and she then licks all the
fibres off herself

Although not ideal for the cat IMO rockwool is a lot better than
fibreglass. You can also get real wool insulation but more expensive
and you need a thicker layer.


The popular brand is Knauf 'Space Blanket' which is only sold in the sheds,
but nobody seems to have any stock of that (Wickes has a few rolls in random
stores but not for delivery, and at 3x the price of un-encapsulated).

Most of the insulation in my loft is rockwool but where I laid down some
boards to give access to water tanks and TV distribution boxes I have
some Space Blanket insulation on top of the boards which can be easily
moved to one side when I need to go into the loft. From memory, it was
around x2 to x3 the price of un-encapsulated even in "more normal" times
(per unit area/thickness) I doubt of the metallised layer adds anything
to the effectiveness of the insulation


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 15/11/2020 22:35, Theo wrote:
I'm looking for fibreglass loft insulation that comes wrapped in a plastic
wrapper, to prevent the installer having to handle the fibreglass. This is
for two reasons: one is the loft is very awkward to work in, so it's hard
not to come into contact with the insulation, and the second is the cat
likes to go in there if somebody left it open, and she then licks all the
fibres off herself

The popular brand is Knauf 'Space Blanket' which is only sold in the sheds,
but nobody seems to have any stock of that (Wickes has a few rolls in random
stores but not for delivery, and at 3x the price of un-encapsulated). I
came across another brand called 'Super Loft Blanket' from a company called
U-spec of St Helens, but their distributor appears to be out of stock too
(in the 170mm thickness).

Are there any other brands or sources of this stuff?

(The alternative no-itch product is polyester fleece, but the nice thing
about Space Blanket is the wrapping is supposed to be silvered mylar film to
reduce thermal radiation - kills two birds with one stone)

There is a Knauff product called Eko roll - made from recycled materials
but treated in such a way that its soft and non irritating to handle,
and does not make any fine floating fibre dust. Its not an encapsulated
product though.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
There is a Knauff product called Eko roll - made from recycled materials
but treated in such a way that its soft and non irritating to handle,
and does not make any fine floating fibre dust. Its not an encapsulated
product though.

Thanks. I saw that (seems to be the new thing the sheds are touting) but I
can't seem to find a datasheet for it anywhere. B&Q/Tradepoint links to a
minimalist Declaration of (fire) Performance that admits 'Wickes Loft Roll
Combi Cut', 'Eko Roll' and 'Space Combi' are all the same thing, but they're
also shed-only brands with no information.

I assumed fibreglass, glassfibre, glass wool, mineral wool, Earthwool and
Rockwool (trade names) were all the same thing, or are there differences in
composition between the brands?

Theo

On 16/11/2020 09:30, Theo wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
There is a Knauff product called Eko roll - made from recycled materials
but treated in such a way that its soft and non irritating to handle,
and does not make any fine floating fibre dust. Its not an encapsulated
product though.

Thanks. I saw that (seems to be the new thing the sheds are touting) but I
can't seem to find a datasheet for it anywhere. B&Q/Tradepoint links to a
minimalist Declaration of (fire) Performance that admits 'Wickes Loft Roll
Combi Cut', 'Eko Roll' and 'Space Combi' are all the same thing, but they're
also shed-only brands with no information.

I assumed fibreglass, glassfibre, glass wool,

Those are one class of product...

mineral wool, Earthwool and Rockwool

and those a distinct separate one IIUC.

Then there is another class of products that has additional sound
deadening properties.

(trade names) were all the same thing, or are there differences in
composition between the brands?

There seems to be a different "binders" used to stick them together, I
expect the various shed brands like the Eko wool all are variations of:

https://www.knaufinsulation.co.uk/wh...ose-technology


(I used the B&Q one when I did my bathrooms a couple of years back -
there was an area of ceiling void that was uninsulated, so I picked up a
couple of rolls of the Eko roll. It was definitely noticeable that it
was much much nicer to handle than normal glass wool)




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Monday, 16 November 2020 at 11:46:04 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/11/2020 09:30, Theo wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
There is a Knauff product called Eko roll - made from recycled materials
but treated in such a way that its soft and non irritating to handle,
and does not make any fine floating fibre dust. Its not an encapsulated
product though.

Thanks. I saw that (seems to be the new thing the sheds are touting) but I
can't seem to find a datasheet for it anywhere. B&Q/Tradepoint links to a
minimalist Declaration of (fire) Performance that admits 'Wickes Loft Roll
Combi Cut', 'Eko Roll' and 'Space Combi' are all the same thing, but they're
also shed-only brands with no information.

I assumed fibreglass, glassfibre, glass wool,
Those are one class of product...
mineral wool, Earthwool and Rockwool
and those a distinct separate one IIUC.

Then there is another class of products that has additional sound
deadening properties.
(trade names) were all the same thing, or are there differences in
composition between the brands?
There seems to be a different "binders" used to stick them together, I
expect the various shed brands like the Eko wool all are variations of:

https://www.knaufinsulation.co.uk/wh...ose-technology


(I used the B&Q one when I did my bathrooms a couple of years back -
there was an area of ceiling void that was uninsulated, so I picked up a
couple of rolls of the Eko roll. It was definitely noticeable that it
was much much nicer to handle than normal glass wool)

I laid a few rolls of this (the 170mm thick variety which comes with partially cut
widths for 400 or 600mm joist spacing) recently wearing gloves and a facemask
but with bare arms which occasionally came into contact with it. I was pleasantly
surprised not to have any itching afterwards. There was very little airborne dust.

John

On Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:03:41 +0000, alan_m wrote:

You can also get real wool insulation but more expensive ...

But very nice to handle and no irritating fibres or dust. It does
shed fibres though.

... and you need a thicker layer.

ICBA to do the research/maths but above 8 to 10 inches of these forms
of insulation you get into the releams of diminishing returns. We've
got 4" of real wool but under 22 mm chipboard which also has some
insulation value. An IR thermometer tells me the ceiling is the same
temp as the external internally insulated with 50mm celotex walls and
an IR camera showed the the same. Internal plasterboard walls are at
most 0.5C warmer...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:03:41 +0000, alan_m wrote:

You can also get real wool insulation but more expensive ...

But very nice to handle and no irritating fibres or dust. It does
shed fibres though.

It seems prices are pretty constant across suppliers. According to my
calculations:

Mineral wool: £3/sqm (200mm thick)
Encapsulated mineral wool: £10/sqm (200mm thick)
Polyester: £14/sqm (200mm thick = 100mm@£7x2)
Sheep's wool: £13-18/sqm (150mm thick)

I probably have 50sqm to do plus some walls, so that's quite a price jump.

ICBA to do the research/maths but above 8 to 10 inches of these forms
of insulation you get into the releams of diminishing returns. We've
got 4" of real wool but under 22 mm chipboard which also has some
insulation value. An IR thermometer tells me the ceiling is the same
temp as the external internally insulated with 50mm celotex walls and
an IR camera showed the the same. Internal plasterboard walls are at
most 0.5C warmer...

It's currently 4 inches, dropping to zero in some places. Thermal camera
photos aren't terrible, but interested in blocking solar gain as well as
heat loss.

Theo

John Walliker wrote:
On Monday, 16 November 2020 at 11:46:04 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
There seems to be a different "binders" used to stick them together, I
expect the various shed brands like the Eko wool all are variations of:

https://www.knaufinsulation.co.uk/wh...ose-technology


(I used the B&Q one when I did my bathrooms a couple of years back -
there was an area of ceiling void that was uninsulated, so I picked up a
couple of rolls of the Eko roll. It was definitely noticeable that it
was much much nicer to handle than normal glass wool)

I laid a few rolls of this (the 170mm thick variety which comes with partially cut
widths for 400 or 600mm joist spacing) recently wearing gloves and a facemask
but with bare arms which occasionally came into contact with it. I was pleasantly
surprised not to have any itching afterwards. There was very little airborne dust.

Interesting. It seems they still recommend gloves but it's less scratchy.
Perhaps I should grab some rolls from Wickes and give it a test...

It appears their contractors' version (Earthwool Loft Roll 44) is made of
the same stuff and that's readily available.


In other news, what would the team recommend for insulating the rear of
vertical stud partitions? There's already fibreglass insulation, but the
back of the studs is exposed? If I were to pin some Celotex to it I'd
compress the wool in there. I don't think rockwool is good for vertical
surfaces, especially not strung horizontally?

Theo

On Sunday, November 15, 2020 at 4:35:54 PM UTC-6, Theo wrote:
I'm looking for fibreglass loft insulation that comes wrapped in a plastic
wrapper, to prevent the installer having to handle the fibreglass. This is
for two reasons: one is the loft is very awkward to work in, so it's hard
not to come into contact with the insulation, and the second is the cat
likes to go in there if somebody left it open, and she then licks all the
fibres off herself


not mice property?


mk5000

Still others will be left in a panic that there will be no traditional songs left to sing, as Martin Urbach has observed. That is simply not true. There are many traditional songs without racist pasts, including a rich abundance of music by actual African Americans, like the childrens singing game €œLittle Johnny Brown€� or jazz standards like €œWhen the Saints Go Marching In.€�--Dr. Katya Ermolaeva

On Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:39:53 +0000 (GMT), Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:03:41 +0000, alan_m wrote:

You can also get real wool insulation but more expensive ...

But very nice to handle and no irritating fibres or dust. It does
shed fibres though.

... and you need a thicker layer.

ICBA to do the research/maths but above 8 to 10 inches of these forms
of insulation you get into the releams of diminishing returns. We've
got 4" of real wool but under 22 mm chipboard which also has some
insulation value. An IR thermometer tells me the ceiling is the same
temp as the external internally insulated with 50mm celotex walls and
an IR camera showed the the same. Internal plasterboard walls are at
most 0.5C warmer...

Some heat is lost by convection causing percolation throgh the insulation;
the chipboard will stop this.
Since I boarded about 70% of the loft I'm very careful with vapour and use
the extractor in the bathroom for the obvious reasons and also for about 40
min. or so in the morning.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On 16 Nov 2020 at 21:54:35 GMT, "Theo"
wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:03:41 +0000, alan_m wrote:

You can also get real wool insulation but more expensive ...

But very nice to handle and no irritating fibres or dust. It does
shed fibres though.

It seems prices are pretty constant across suppliers. According to my
calculations:

Mineral wool: £3/sqm (200mm thick)
Encapsulated mineral wool: £10/sqm (200mm thick)
Polyester: £14/sqm (200mm thick = 100mm@£7x2)
Sheep's wool: £13-18/sqm (150mm thick)

I probably have 50sqm to do plus some walls, so that's quite a price jump.

ICBA to do the research/maths but above 8 to 10 inches of these forms
of insulation you get into the releams of diminishing returns. We've
got 4" of real wool but under 22 mm chipboard which also has some
insulation value. An IR thermometer tells me the ceiling is the same
temp as the external internally insulated with 50mm celotex walls and
an IR camera showed the the same. Internal plasterboard walls are at
most 0.5C warmer...

It's currently 4 inches, dropping to zero in some places. Thermal camera
photos aren't terrible, but interested in blocking solar gain as well as
heat loss.


Reading this, I'm not sure why you don't just celotex the ceiling (and
verticals) with, say, 75mm. You could loose board over too, without the need
for stilts over wool etc. If I had my time again it's what I would have done.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 15/11/2020 22:35, Theo wrote:
and the second is the cat
likes to go in there if somebody left it open, and she then licks all the
fibres off herself

102 uses for many dead cats ?. (Loft insulation). :-)

On 16/11/2020 21:54, Theo wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:03:41 +0000, alan_m wrote:

You can also get real wool insulation but more expensive ...

But very nice to handle and no irritating fibres or dust. It does
shed fibres though.

It seems prices are pretty constant across suppliers. According to my
calculations:

Mineral wool: £3/sqm (200mm thick)
Encapsulated mineral wool: £10/sqm (200mm thick)
Polyester: £14/sqm (200mm thick = 100mm@£7x2)
Sheep's wool: £13-18/sqm (150mm thick)

Be careful with sheeps wool. It is supposed to be treated
to kill any possible parasites, but there have been incidences
where people have used it, with good intentions inside walls
of super-insulated new builds and the treatment was either
not done, or ineffective.

Don't overlook PIR , 'Celotex'. Unless you have a lot
of aluminium or magnesium up there, a domestic fire won't
get up to the temperature where PIR actually burns.

RJH wrote:
Reading this, I'm not sure why you don't just celotex the ceiling (and
verticals) with, say, 75mm. You could loose board over too, without the need
for stilts over wool etc. If I had my time again it's what I would have done.

Hmm, that is a good thought. I had previously looked into using EPS-backed
chipboard, but there's no a lot of available products and reckoned it would
be easier just to lay rolls on top.

I hadn't considered replacing everything with celotex. I can see that has
merits. One issue is the space - no part of the loft is more than 4' high
and the roof slopes from 4' to 0', so it's not much fun to work in there.
Access is also awful (can't get large items through, very limited turning
circles). Cutting celotex is a bit of a pain too. I had hoped throwing
some encapsulated rolls down would be least-work.

A second concern was that installing foil-backed insulation is likely to
make RF conditions worse - mobile signal and wifi. But that's likely the
case with any insulation to block solar radiation, which is a big issue.
The second can be addressed with more access points, I could probably live
with worse mobile signal. So I should probably stop worrying about this and
go with the flow.

However losing some of that height for insulation would also be a pain and
celotex has advantages here.

I might think about a mixed strategy: replacing the tall parts with celotex
and boards on top and the awkward bits with rolled insulation. Probably put
celotex behind the batts on the existing stud walls too.

Methinks I should go and grab some samples to try...

Thanks (and to RJH too) for a good idea

Theo

On 18/11/2020 11:14, Theo wrote:
A second concern was that installing foil-backed insulation is likely to
make RF conditions worse - mobile signal and wifi. But that's likely the
case with any insulation to block solar radiation, which is a big issue.
The second can be addressed with more access points, I could probably live
with worse mobile signal. So I should probably stop worrying about this and
go with the flow.
???

Yes foil in walls messes up inter room wifi and makes mobile coverage
strange but foil in ceilings is a different matter. You aren't receiving
signals in that direction except GPS, so your phone wont know where it
is when it's at home...

...and as far as solar radiation goes, what on earth are you talking
about? cosmic rays? Curiously the fact that its dark in a loft is a
fairly sure sign that all incoming solar radiation is stopped by the
roof...not by any insulation thereafter.

--
€œSome people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of €¨an airplane.€�

Dennis Miller

In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 18/11/2020 11:14, Theo wrote:
A second concern was that installing foil-backed insulation is likely
to make RF conditions worse - mobile signal and wifi. But that's
likely the case with any insulation to block solar radiation, which is
a big issue. The second can be addressed with more access points, I
could probably live with worse mobile signal. So I should probably
stop worrying about this and go with the flow.
???

Yes foil in walls messes up inter room wifi and makes mobile coverage
strange but foil in ceilings is a different matter. You aren't receiving
signals in that direction except GPS, so your phone wont know where it
is when it's at home...

Depends on how high up the mobile phone mast is in relation to your house

..and as far as solar radiation goes, what on earth are you talking
about? cosmic rays? Curiously the fact that its dark in a loft is a
fairly sure sign that all incoming solar radiation is stopped by the
roof.

That's the visible radiation. gives no indication of other frequencies, If
you logic was correct, there's be no heat loss through roof tiles.

..not by any insulation thereafter.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 18/11/2020 11:14, Theo wrote:
Cutting celotex is a bit of a pain too.

Sharpen the back of a hacksaw blade into a knife
and make a handle for it. AVoids sawing and creating
lots of dust. If you get the sharpness right and
pull it through at the correct angle it just slices
through PIR up to 70mm thick.

On 16 Nov 2020 22:07:05 +0000 (GMT), Theo
wrote:

snip

I laid a few rolls of this (the 170mm thick variety which comes with partially cut
widths for 400 or 600mm joist spacing) recently wearing gloves and a facemask
but with bare arms which occasionally came into contact with it. I was pleasantly
surprised not to have any itching afterwards. There was very little airborne dust.

Interesting. It seems they still recommend gloves but it's less scratchy.
Perhaps I should grab some rolls from Wickes and give it a test...

Ignoring the cats for a second, do you know you are allergic to
contact with fibreglass or is it just a precaution (in case you are or
for some other reason)?

I know I'm not allergic to it and have often been amongst it (inc
insulating my loft) with no obvious ill effect?

Maybe if one can build up a tolerance of such things I did when I was
shoved into small lockers and under-deck spaces fiber glassing over
wooden pads for cleats and the like on Dads various boats when I was a
kid. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 18 Nov 2020 at 17:52:44 GMT, "T i m" wrote:

On 16 Nov 2020 22:07:05 +0000 (GMT), Theo
wrote:

snip

I laid a few rolls of this (the 170mm thick variety which comes with
partially cut
widths for 400 or 600mm joist spacing) recently wearing gloves and a
facemask
but with bare arms which occasionally came into contact with it. I was
pleasantly
surprised not to have any itching afterwards. There was very little
airborne dust.

Interesting. It seems they still recommend gloves but it's less scratchy.
Perhaps I should grab some rolls from Wickes and give it a test...

Ignoring the cats for a second, do you know you are allergic to
contact with fibreglass or is it just a precaution (in case you are or
for some other reason)?

I know I'm not allergic to it and have often been amongst it (inc
insulating my loft) with no obvious ill effect?

Maybe if one can build up a tolerance of such things I did when I was
shoved into small lockers and under-deck spaces fiber glassing over
wooden pads for cleats and the like on Dads various boats when I was a
kid. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I thought the main danger was inhaling the glass fibres/dust?

--
Cheers, Rob

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 20:45:15 +0000 (UTC), RJH
wrote:

snip

Maybe if one can build up a tolerance of such things I did when I was
shoved into small lockers and under-deck spaces fiber glassing over
wooden pads for cleats and the like on Dads various boats when I was a
kid. ;-)


I thought the main danger was inhaling the glass fibres/dust?

I think you are right (medically) typically re insulation materials
and if sanding or grinding (fiber)glass reinforced resin, but I'm
also aware that some can quickly come up in a rash or itch if they
simply come in contact with it (I don't).

Mum is allergic to Guinea pigs (their fur, not eating them) but
nothing else (that we know of).

Cheers, T i m

On 18/11/2020 21:59, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 20:45:15 +0000 (UTC), RJH
wrote:

snip

Maybe if one can build up a tolerance of such things I did when I was
shoved into small lockers and under-deck spaces fiber glassing over
wooden pads for cleats and the like on Dads various boats when I was a
kid. ;-)


I thought the main danger was inhaling the glass fibres/dust?

I think you are right (medically) typically re insulation materials
and if sanding or grinding (fiber)glass reinforced resin, but I'm
also aware that some can quickly come up in a rash or itch if they
simply come in contact with it (I don't).

I don't get a rash, but am very aware of if I have come into contact
with it - it leaves an odd prickly sensation to the skin.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 19 Nov 2020 at 00:39:39 GMT, "John Rumm"
wrote:

On 18/11/2020 21:59, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 20:45:15 +0000 (UTC), RJH
wrote:

snip

Maybe if one can build up a tolerance of such things I did when I was
shoved into small lockers and under-deck spaces fiber glassing over
wooden pads for cleats and the like on Dads various boats when I was a
kid. ;-)


I thought the main danger was inhaling the glass fibres/dust?

I think you are right (medically) typically re insulation materials
and if sanding or grinding (fiber)glass reinforced resin, but I'm
also aware that some can quickly come up in a rash or itch if they
simply come in contact with it (I don't).

I don't get a rash, but am very aware of if I have come into contact
with it - it leaves an odd prickly sensation to the skin.

That's precisely what I get. It diminishes over a day or so. I must admit
that my main concern is what it may be doing to my lungs.

--
Roger Hayter