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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#41
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UNBELIEVABLE: It's 04:48 am in Australia and the Senile Ozzietard has been out of Bed and TROLLING for ONE AND A HALF HOUR already!!!! LOL
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 04:48:09 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: FLUSH the senile cretin's latest troll**** 04:48??? LOL So it WILL be yet ANOTHER long long sleepless night for you, you sick senile swine! tsk -- Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile cretin from Oz: https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/ |
#42
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
On 05/02/2020 10:48, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 09:25:02 +0000, Tim Streater wrote: snip Says a poor loser, who conveniently forgets the tales of economic collapse told by losers. Yes, he carefully overlooks all the Project Fear lies. Because (and obviously you wouldn't get this on your own because you are a left brainer), Leave won and only *Leaving* would be a change from the status quo. There was no status quo. The EU is constantly changing, taking in more countries (people voted to be a group of 9 not 28), adding new rules and laws or changing old ones. Remainers could no more say where the EU would be in 20 years than leavers could about the UK - except that in another 20 years, if the EU was heading in a direction that the UK public did not like, our businesses and institutions would be that much more intertwined that leaving would be nigh on impossible. The difficulties and possible damages that you repeatedly list shows that the window of opportunity to leave was closing and it was now or never. If you dare someone to jump off a cliff (for no tangible reason, like the false promise of something) and they don't, there is nothing lost, it's only if they jump are questions likely to be asked and especially your part in it. There is no false promise in self-determination and independence. I *really* CGAF if we left or stayed, as long as whatever we did was decided honestly and fairly and was done democratically (a straight advisory referendum first, then a people vote for starters) and where liars *aren't* allowed to post lies on the sides of busses on the grounds it's easier to get forgiveness than permission. What about remainers - that the economy would collapse immediately after a leave vote, that jobs would immediately disappear, that wages would fall straight away. Do you think for one second they would have been allowed to post the lies on the side of the bust if they were required to go though some sort of honesty audit first? Probably some explanatory small-print would have been required. Just as would have been required (and far more lines of it) with many of "Project Fear's" claims. Also, in your left brainer world, how many Remainers do you actually think thought the sky would fall in ... but might just be cautious / concerned that it might not actually do us the good that the Leavers promised but couldn't justify? So economic concerns are all that matters and self-determination has no value? There is nothing dangerous in being a glass half empty person, especially when there is little tangible proof that the promise of more water may just be hopes and dreams. Except that worry about the future may just stop you making that journey to find more water. This is the problem with left brainers and cognitive bias, they think that both sides are equal and that's far from the truth. Leavers and only leavers were the activists and *have to* 'sell' the facts to everone else. They didn't, they used tricks and lies. No. Remaining was also about a process of change - and one where we we could not make the decisions. Democracy is something that happens continuously and why I can't support (and never will) us Leaving the EU under those bogus grounds. Hardly continuous when people are not given the opportunity to vote on it for over 40 years! SteveW |
#43
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
On 05/02/2020 11:06, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 09:29:27 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote: In message , "Dave Plowman (News)" writes In article , alan_m wrote: On 04/02/2020 17:01, Custos Custodum wrote: Correct. It was a suggestion, which Johnson fully endorsed. Every stage hypnotist and sleight-of-hand operator knows the power of suggestion. And all the Little Englanders fell for it. Why do those who oppose leaving believe that 17 million people (and maybe more during the last general election) were fooled by the 350 million figure especially with so much contemporary publicity saying that the figure was a lie? You didn't need 17 million to believe the lies. A couple of million was enough to sway the vote. Plenty had perfectly acceptable reasons to want to leave - even where others disagreed with them. Basically, whoever paid for that bus, bought enough votes to influence the outcome. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a3579676.html "Mr Cummings also coined the groups official slogan vote leave, take control. An official Vote Leave poster also claimed that Turkey (population 76million) is joining the EU. Bingo, it really could come down to something as simple (and devious) as that. However, we are where we are and need to accept the result without further recrimination. Do we though? If someone tricks you into cleaning and painting your roof with some false promises then it fails, do you just walk away? While it is nice to have someone to blame if things go badly further obstruction is not helpful for any. Other than we haven't left yet, the final deal still isn't struck and democracy doesn't just happen on one day. If the idea that not everyone is happy to accept anything the government now comes up with re us Leaving, they might just moderate what they do for fear of being voted out at the next election (or sooner). The problem is that partial leaving is the worst of all worlds. Either staying or fully leaving make sense, but not surrendering the benefits of staying, without being able to exploit the potential benefits of leaving. |
#44
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
On 05/02/2020 14:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 05/02/2020 09:29, Tim Lamb wrote: Basically, whoever paid for that bus, bought enough votes to influence the outcome. Whereas the people who bought ALL the *other* busses saying bollox to brexit and we love the EU didnt buy enough votes . Nothing like appealing to people's wallets. And leave were very keen to imply everyone would be better off after we leave. Only recently have they admitted that hard times are very likely ahead for many. Al of the leavers I know thought from the start that there would be economic consequences, at least in the short term. But self-determination has its own value, that is too difficult to put a monetary value on. SteveW |
#45
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
On 05/02/2020 14:59, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Tim Lamb wrote: In message , The Natural Philosopher writes On 05/02/2020 09:29, Tim Lamb wrote: Basically, whoever paid for that bus, bought enough votes to influence* the outcome. Whereas the people who bought ALL the *other* busses saying bollox to brexit and we love the EU didnt buy enough votes . No lies there. Plain statements. Oh dear Tim. ten times more was spent in remain propaganda than leave. Well I wouldn't say ten, but twice at least (see the published figures of the Electoral Commission). Oh? Who paid for that then? The UK Govt (i.e., us taxpayers) paid for £9M of it. Yes. Carefully timed so as not to count in the referendum campaign figures, despite being purely about the referendum! SteveW |
#46
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
"Steve Walker" wrote in message ... On 05/02/2020 10:48, T i m wrote: On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 09:25:02 +0000, Tim Streater wrote: snip Says a poor loser, who conveniently forgets the tales of economic collapse told by losers. Yes, he carefully overlooks all the Project Fear lies. Because (and obviously you wouldn't get this on your own because you are a left brainer), Leave won and only *Leaving* would be a change from the status quo. There was no status quo. The EU is constantly changing, taking in more countries (people voted to be a group of 9 not 28), adding new rules and laws or changing old ones. Remainers could no more say where the EU would be in 20 years than leavers could about the UK Yes. - except that in another 20 years, if the EU was heading in a direction that the UK public did not like, our businesses and institutions would be that much more intertwined that leaving would be nigh on impossible. Dont buy that given how dramatically multinationals work now. The difficulties and possible damages that you repeatedly list shows that the window of opportunity to leave was closing and it was now or never. Dont buy that either, particularly in say 5 years or so. Not that I am suggesting that there was any point in waiting, If you dare someone to jump off a cliff (for no tangible reason, like the false promise of something) and they don't, there is nothing lost, it's only if they jump are questions likely to be asked and especially your part in it. There is no false promise in self-determination and independence. I *really* CGAF if we left or stayed, as long as whatever we did was decided honestly and fairly and was done democratically (a straight advisory referendum first, then a people vote for starters) and where liars *aren't* allowed to post lies on the sides of busses on the grounds it's easier to get forgiveness than permission. What about remainers - that the economy would collapse immediately after a leave vote, that jobs would immediately disappear, that wages would fall straight away. Do you think for one second they would have been allowed to post the lies on the side of the bust if they were required to go though some sort of honesty audit first? Probably some explanatory small-print would have been required. Just as would have been required (and far more lines of it) with many of "Project Fear's" claims. Also, in your left brainer world, how many Remainers do you actually think thought the sky would fall in ... but might just be cautious / concerned that it might not actually do us the good that the Leavers promised but couldn't justify? So economic concerns are all that matters and self-determination has no value? Yeah, thats obviously silly. There is nothing dangerous in being a glass half empty person, especially when there is little tangible proof that the promise of more water may just be hopes and dreams. Except that worry about the future may just stop you making that journey to find more water. This is the problem with left brainers and cognitive bias, they think that both sides are equal and that's far from the truth. Leavers and only leavers were the activists and *have to* 'sell' the facts to everone else. They didn't, they used tricks and lies. No. Remaining was also about a process of change - and one where we we could not make the decisions. Democracy is something that happens continuously and why I can't support (and never will) us Leaving the EU under those bogus grounds. Hardly continuous when people are not given the opportunity to vote on it for over 40 years! |
#47
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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UNBELIEVABLE: It's 08:57 am in Australia and the Senile Ozzietard has been out of Bed and TROLLING for ALMOST SIX HOURS already!!!! LOL
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 08:57:16 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: FLUSH troll**** 08:57!!! LOL And you've been up and trolling ALL NIGHT, yet AGAIN! LOL -- Bill Wright addressing senile Ozzie cretin Rot Speed: "Well you make up a lot of stuff and it's total ******** most of it." MID: |
#48
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 13:57:04 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote: Its classical archetypal remoaner-in-a-bubble swallowing predigested opinions carefully formed for him by the mainstream media. You should get out more and meet real people Can I ask where you go to meet 'real people'? Round behind Kings Cross, probably. -- My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message. Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org *lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor |
#49
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 21:36:29 +0000, Steve Walker
wrote: On 05/02/2020 10:48, T i m wrote: On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 09:25:02 +0000, Tim Streater wrote: snip Says a poor loser, who conveniently forgets the tales of economic collapse told by losers. Yes, he carefully overlooks all the Project Fear lies. Because (and obviously you wouldn't get this on your own because you are a left brainer), Leave won and only *Leaving* would be a change from the status quo. There was no status quo. Of course there is, it was how things would have evolved, had we not changed that path by leaving. The EU is constantly changing, taking in more countries (people voted to be a group of 9 not 28), adding new rules and laws or changing old ones. No? Really? rolls eyes Remainers could no more say where the EU would be in 20 years than leavers could about the UK Of course they could, they could say we were still in the EU and doing whatever was appropriate then. What Remainers weren't pretending to be was clairvoyants. - except that in another 20 years, if the EU was heading in a direction that the UK public did not like, our businesses and institutions would be that much more intertwined that leaving would be nigh on impossible. Nope, we could just as easily leave then as now (technically). The difficulties and possible damages that you repeatedly list shows that the window of opportunity to leave was closing and it was now or never. Nope. If you dare someone to jump off a cliff (for no tangible reason, like the false promise of something) and they don't, there is nothing lost, it's only if they jump are questions likely to be asked and especially your part in it. There is no false promise in self-determination and independence. I'm not even discussing that (opinion). I'm discussing the lies that were used to win. And 'of course' the people behind the bus slogan campaign knew it was BS, but that didn't matter (to them) as long as they got the votes from it (and they did). Easier to get forgiveness then permission. I *really* CGAF if we left or stayed, as long as whatever we did was decided honestly and fairly and was done democratically (a straight advisory referendum first, then a people vote for starters) and where liars *aren't* allowed to post lies on the sides of busses on the grounds it's easier to get forgiveness than permission. What about remainers - that the economy would collapse immediately after a leave vote, that jobs would immediately disappear, that wages would fall straight away. We haven't left yet ... but no remainer I talked to then or since has suggested anything like they knew that would happen. Some were concerned if it might, quite reasonably. Do you think for one second they would have been allowed to post the lies on the side of the bust if they were required to go though some sort of honesty audit first? Probably some explanatory small-print would have been required. Quite. Just as would have been required (and far more lines of it) with many of "Project Fear's" claims. Claims like what exactly? How many can you quote and find any actual evidence for? Also, in your left brainer world, how many Remainers do you actually think thought the sky would fall in ... but might just be cautious / concerned that it might not actually do us the good that the Leavers promised but couldn't justify? So economic concerns are all that matters and self-determination has no value? Of course self-determination 'matters', but not at *any cost*. It's all part of a bigger picture that needs to be considered. There is nothing dangerous in being a glass half empty person, especially when there is little tangible proof that the promise of more water may just be hopes and dreams. Except that worry about the future may just stop you making that journey to find more water. But how is walking away from a known well (that is still working for most) and out into the desert going to help? This is the problem with left brainers and cognitive bias, they think that both sides are equal and that's far from the truth. Leavers and only leavers were the activists and *have to* 'sell' the facts to everone else. They didn't, they used tricks and lies. No. Remaining was also about a process of change - and one where we we could not make the decisions. To one where we could make no decisions you mean? Like where we are now and where we will be on any EU discussions in the future. Whist we may be an island physically, we aren't an island commercially and there are millions of things / ties / transactions, big and small that rely on those bonds. Now, I would be more than happy to break those bonds *IF* someone, anyone could give me any level of assurance that our change of direction wasn't just because of racism, a gamble, because of 'Little Englanders' but so far, over the last 3.5 years, not one person has. What they have done is demonstrated they are on an anti EU crusade for reasons they try to explain as if I might consider them reasonable but it has never been the case. Democracy is something that happens continuously and why I can't support (and never will) us Leaving the EU under those bogus grounds. Hardly continuous when people are not given the opportunity to vote on it for over 40 years! Very few people I know *wanted* to vote on us leaving the EU. Those that I know who did when offered the chance are ignorant as they have yet to even start to explain anything as they don't have an f'ing clue about any of it (often contradicting themselves). Our daughter was talking to one recently. Him. 'We shouldn't be attracting workers for their own counties as they need them themselves' Her. 'Yes, you are right in an ideal world, but they come here because there is no work in their own counties' Him. 'Maybe we should give their country some money so they can create jobs and keep their own workers'. Her. 'Yes, we could create a group of counties, let's call them a Union and each county that's doing well at that time could put some money in a pot to help the ones that aren't? Him 'Yes, that's sounds ok .... ah ... And they let these people vote ... but hey, as long as they get 'self-determination' (assuming they hadn't already actually got that ITRW) they would be happier right ... for all those reasons they never seem able to come up with ... Cheers, T i m |
#50
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 21:39:21 +0000, Steve Walker
wrote: snip If the idea that not everyone is happy to accept anything the government now comes up with re us Leaving, they might just moderate what they do for fear of being voted out at the next election (or sooner). The problem is that partial leaving is the worst of all worlds. Is it. So what if that's what we get. Would you still count it as the sovereign government you wanted doing what they promised or not? Either staying or fully leaving make sense, but not surrendering the benefits of staying, without being able to exploit the potential benefits of leaving. You voted for it, what are we getting then? Cheers, T i m |
#51
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 21:45:53 +0000, Steve Walker
wrote: On 05/02/2020 14:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , snip Al of the leavers I know thought from the start that there would be economic consequences, at least in the short term. But self-determination has its own value, that is too difficult to put a monetary value on. You wait till it happens and see how quickly they (the Leavers who voted for it) find a way! Cheers, T i m |
#52
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
On 05/02/2020 17:06, #Paul wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote: Its classical archetypal remoaner-in-a-bubble swallowing predigested opinions carefully formed for him by the mainstream media. You should get out more and meet real people Can I ask where you go to meet 'real people'? It doesn't really matter. Even with the best will in the world, one person trying to sample the views of millions of people by means of personal meetings has no realist chance of not falling prey to biases of one kind or another. Even professional opinion pollsters have to work hard to get good-enough results. It seems clear enough from discussions here that some people have experiences that suggest that a majority of real people they meet think Brexit is a good idea; whilst for others the majority of real people *they* meet think it is a bad idea. Mind you, the whole situation can become - at least superficially - nicely clear cut if you decide that people whose views you dislike are not "real people", or should be discounted since they have obviously been misled by propaganda. I canvassed for UKIP a bit, back in the day. Door to door stuff. I met several people whose views were frannklky offensive to me.. And not all were of the Harry persuasion either. Plenty of rants by pro EU people wanting to keep plebs in their place. But their views are their views. They all had reasons for having them. #Paul -- There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent renewable energy. |
#53
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
On 05/02/2020 21:45, Steve Walker wrote:
On 05/02/2020 14:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , *** The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 05/02/2020 09:29, Tim Lamb wrote: Basically, whoever paid for that bus, bought enough votes to influence the outcome. Whereas the people who bought ALL the *other* busses saying bollox to brexit and we love the EU didnt buy enough votes . Nothing like appealing to people's wallets. And leave were very keen to imply everyone would be better off after we leave. Only recently have they admitted that hard times are very likely ahead for many. Al of the leavers I know thought from the start that there would be economic consequences, at least in the short term. But self-determination has its own value, that is too difficult to put a monetary value on. SteveW Would you rather by rich lonely and sucidal, or sharing a bottle with some mates under the arches? Marx was a materialist. His version of the greatest good for the greatest number means as much material wealth to as many as possible. frankly, It sucks. Because it comes with price tag that has raised the teenage suicide rate and the murder rate to unacceptable proportions -- There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent renewable energy. |
#54
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
In article ,
Steve Walker wrote: There was no status quo. The EU is constantly changing, taking in more countries (people voted to be a group of 9 not 28), adding new rules and laws or changing old ones. Remainers could no more say where the EU would be in 20 years than leavers could about the UK - except that in another 20 years, if the EU was heading in a direction that the UK public did not like, our businesses and institutions would be that much more intertwined that leaving would be nigh on impossible. And it's been such and easy journey so far. ;-) Rather different from how the leave campaign said it would be. -- *Therapy is expensive, poppin' bubble wrap is cheap! You choose. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#55
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
In article ,
Steve Walker wrote: The problem is that partial leaving is the worst of all worlds. Either staying or fully leaving make sense, but not surrendering the benefits of staying, without being able to exploit the potential benefits of leaving. You seem to think we can make all the rules. And as a small country, we have nothing like the clout of the US, China, EU etc. Something we will have to accept if going it alone. We are nothing like self sufficient in food and energy etc, let alone manufactured goods. So have to rely heavily on imports. And to pay for those we need to export both goods and services. As with everthing, all will be happy to sell us anything. But a buyer has the choice of who they give the business to. It's sad so many have to be reminded of the basics. -- *I don't believe in astrology. I am a Sagittarius and we're very skeptical. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#56
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
In article ,
Steve Walker wrote: Al of the leavers I know thought from the start that there would be economic consequences, at least in the short term. That assumes there aren't those who were convinced by the 'facts' given in the popular press and by the leave campaign on the run up to the referendum. It didn't need many to believe those lies to swing the vote to leave. -- *Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#57
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote: I canvassed for UKIP a bit, back in the day. Door to door stuff. I met several people whose views were frannklky offensive to me.. And not all were of the Harry persuasion either. I went to one UKIP meeting out of curiosity. It was full of people just like harry. -- *What am I? Flypaper for freaks!? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#58
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote: Marx was a materialist. His version of the greatest good for the greatest number means as much material wealth to as many as possible. frankly, It sucks. Rather obviously you would prefer material wealth confined to the fewest possible. As long as you are one. -- *Two wrongs are only the beginning * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#59
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
On Wednesday, 5 February 2020 23:36:35 UTC, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 13:57:04 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote: Its classical archetypal remoaner-in-a-bubble swallowing predigested opinions carefully formed for him by the mainstream media. You should get out more and meet real people Can I ask where you go to meet 'real people'? Round behind Kings Cross, probably. Not since the late 90s now you use facebook and whatsapp etc ;-) |
#60
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
Steve Walker wrote:
On 05/02/2020 14:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 05/02/2020 09:29, Tim Lamb wrote: Basically, whoever paid for that bus, bought enough votes to influence the outcome. Whereas the people who bought ALL the *other* busses saying bollox to brexit and we love the EU didnt buy enough votes . Nothing like appealing to people's wallets. And leave were very keen to imply everyone would be better off after we leave. Only recently have they admitted that hard times are very likely ahead for many. Al of the leavers I know thought from the start that there would be economic consequences, at least in the short term. But self-determination has its own value, that is too difficult to put a monetary value on. SteveW Paradoxically, we may well have had more opportunity for self-determination as part of the EU bloc (see French foreign policy for instance) than as a small independent country heavily dominated by American politics and culture. -- Roger Hayter |
#61
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
In message ,
whisky-dave writes On Wednesday, 5 February 2020 23:36:35 UTC, Bob Eager wrote: On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 13:57:04 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote: Its classical archetypal remoaner-in-a-bubble swallowing predigested opinions carefully formed for him by the mainstream media. You should get out more and meet real people Can I ask where you go to meet 'real people'? Round behind Kings Cross, probably. Not since the late 90s now you use facebook and whatsapp etc ;-) Close! I think you will find Google's new office blocks just about there! -- Tim Lamb |
#62
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 05:10:41 -0800, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 February 2020 23:36:35 UTC, Bob Eager wrote: On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 13:57:04 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote: Its classical archetypal remoaner-in-a-bubble swallowing predigested opinions carefully formed for him by the mainstream media. You should get out more and meet real people Can I ask where you go to meet 'real people'? Round behind Kings Cross, probably. Not since the late 90s now you use facebook and whatsapp etc ;-) Well, you would know. -- My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message. Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org *lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor |
#63
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
On 06/02/2020 14:09, Roger Hayter wrote:
than as a small independent country heavily dominated by American politics and culture. Except we are a large independent country not dominated by American politics and culture, now. -- "I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun". |
#64
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Has the sky fallen in yet?
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 06/02/2020 14:09, Roger Hayter wrote: than as a small independent country heavily dominated by American politics and culture. Except we are a large independent country not dominated by American politics and culture, now. Yup. Britannia rules the waves - once more. And of course we won the war so are entitled to be given special consideration for that. In your dreams. -- *The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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