On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 21:36:29 +0000, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 05/02/2020 10:48, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 09:25:02 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

snip

Says a poor loser, who conveniently forgets the tales of economic
collapse told by losers.

Yes, he carefully overlooks all the Project Fear lies.

Because (and obviously you wouldn't get this on your own because you
are a left brainer), Leave won and only *Leaving* would be a change
from the status quo.

There was no status quo.

Of course there is, it was how things would have evolved, had we not
changed that path by leaving.

The EU is constantly changing, taking in more
countries (people voted to be a group of 9 not 28), adding new rules and
laws or changing old ones.

No? Really? rolls eyes

Remainers could no more say where the EU
would be in 20 years than leavers could about the UK

Of course they could, they could say we were still in the EU and doing
whatever was appropriate then. What Remainers weren't pretending to be
was clairvoyants.

- except that in
another 20 years, if the EU was heading in a direction that the UK
public did not like, our businesses and institutions would be that much
more intertwined that leaving would be nigh on impossible.

Nope, we could just as easily leave then as now (technically).

The
difficulties and possible damages that you repeatedly list shows that
the window of opportunity to leave was closing and it was now or never.

Nope.

If you dare someone to jump off a cliff (for no tangible reason, like
the false promise of something) and they don't, there is nothing lost,
it's only if they jump are questions likely to be asked and especially
your part in it.

There is no false promise in self-determination and independence.

I'm not even discussing that (opinion). I'm discussing the lies that
were used to win.

And 'of course' the people behind the bus slogan campaign knew it was
BS, but that didn't matter (to them) as long as they got the votes
from it (and they did). Easier to get forgiveness then permission.

I *really* CGAF if we left or stayed, as long as whatever we did was
decided honestly and fairly and was done democratically (a straight
advisory referendum first, then a people vote for starters) and where
liars *aren't* allowed to post lies on the sides of busses on the
grounds it's easier to get forgiveness than permission.

What about remainers - that the economy would collapse immediately after
a leave vote, that jobs would immediately disappear, that wages would
fall straight away.

We haven't left yet ... but no remainer I talked to then or since has
suggested anything like they knew that would happen. Some were
concerned if it might, quite reasonably.

Do you think for one second they would have been allowed to post the
lies on the side of the bust if they were required to go though some
sort of honesty audit first?

Probably some explanatory small-print would have been required.

Quite.

Just as would have been required (and far more lines of it) with many of
"Project Fear's" claims.

Claims like what exactly? How many can you quote and find any actual
evidence for?

Also, in your left brainer world, how many Remainers do you actually
think thought the sky would fall in ... but might just be cautious /
concerned that it might not actually do us the good that the Leavers
promised but couldn't justify?

So economic concerns are all that matters and self-determination has no
value?

Of course self-determination 'matters', but not at *any cost*. It's
all part of a bigger picture that needs to be considered.

There is nothing dangerous in being a glass half empty person,
especially when there is little tangible proof that the promise of
more water may just be hopes and dreams.

Except that worry about the future may just stop you making that journey
to find more water.

But how is walking away from a known well (that is still working for
most) and out into the desert going to help?

This is the problem with left brainers and cognitive bias, they think
that both sides are equal and that's far from the truth. Leavers and
only leavers were the activists and *have to* 'sell' the facts to
everone else. They didn't, they used tricks and lies.

No. Remaining was also about a process of change - and one where we we
could not make the decisions.

To one where we could make no decisions you mean? Like where we are
now and where we will be on any EU discussions in the future.

Whist we may be an island physically, we aren't an island commercially
and there are millions of things / ties / transactions, big and small
that rely on those bonds.

Now, I would be more than happy to break those bonds *IF* someone,
anyone could give me any level of assurance that our change of
direction wasn't just because of racism, a gamble, because of 'Little
Englanders' but so far, over the last 3.5 years, not one person has.
What they have done is demonstrated they are on an anti EU crusade for
reasons they try to explain as if I might consider them reasonable but
it has never been the case.

Democracy is something that happens continuously and why I can't
support (and never will) us Leaving the EU under those bogus grounds.

Hardly continuous when people are not given the opportunity to vote on
it for over 40 years!

Very few people I know *wanted* to vote on us leaving the EU.

Those that I know who did when offered the chance are ignorant as they
have yet to even start to explain anything as they don't have an f'ing
clue about any of it (often contradicting themselves).

Our daughter was talking to one recently.

Him. 'We shouldn't be attracting workers for their own counties as
they need them themselves'
Her. 'Yes, you are right in an ideal world, but they come here because
there is no work in their own counties'
Him. 'Maybe we should give their country some money so they can create
jobs and keep their own workers'.
Her. 'Yes, we could create a group of counties, let's call them a
Union and each county that's doing well at that time could put some
money in a pot to help the ones that aren't?
Him 'Yes, that's sounds ok .... ah ...

And they let these people vote ... but hey, as long as they get
'self-determination' (assuming they hadn't already actually got that
ITRW) they would be happier right ... for all those reasons they never
seem able to come up with ...

Cheers, T i m