On 26/01/2020 20:19, bert wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 24/01/2020 11:18, NY wrote:
Sadly, more and more drivers use their footbrake all the time that
theyÂ* are stopped - do they even know where the handbrake is? I
suspect theÂ* worst culprits are those with automatic transmission who
stay in DriveÂ* with the footbrake on to prevent them creeping
forwards, rather thanÂ* knocking it into neutral until they are about
to set off again.

The use of the handbrake is mandatory in a clutched car. Your left
foot has to be on the clutch and the right on the accelerator.
In the case of an automatioc its almost the exact opposite. You have
to learn to left foot brake to control the car in theÂ* same way you
can a clutched car: that is, fixed accelerator and then control uptake
on the left foot by releasing the brake insietd of the clutch.

My current car has an electric motorised handbrake. It's called a
'parking brake' and thats ALL it is designed for, and its riddy
awkward to iuse in a traffic queue on a slope as it takes an
appreciable time to disengage


Drove an automatic RR Evoque recently. Automatically prevented creep,
automatically prevented roll back, automatically released brake when
accelerator pressed. I think it would have wiped my a*** if only I could
have found the right menu option. Driving is being de skilled.

But being a Range Rover all those functions will soon fail or become
intermittent and cost an arm, two legs and liver to repair.

On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 13:32:26 -0800, polygonum_on_google wrote:

On Sunday, 26 January 2020 20:20:46 UTC, bert wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 24/01/2020 11:18, NY wrote:
Sadly, more and more drivers use their footbrake all the time that
they are stopped - do they even know where the handbrake is? I
suspect the worst culprits are those with automatic transmission who
stay in Drive with the footbrake on to prevent them creeping
forwards, rather than knocking it into neutral until they are about
to set off again.

The use of the handbrake is mandatory in a clutched car. Your left
foot has to be on the clutch and the right on the accelerator.
In the case of an automatioc its almost the exact opposite. You have
to learn to left foot brake to control the car in the same way you
can a clutched car: that is, fixed accelerator and then control uptake
on the left foot by releasing the brake insietd of the clutch.

My current car has an electric motorised handbrake. It's called a
'parking brake' and thats ALL it is designed for, and its riddy
awkward to iuse in a traffic queue on a slope as it takes an
appreciable time to disengage


Drove an automatic RR Evoque recently. Automatically prevented creep,
automatically prevented roll back, automatically released brake when
accelerator pressed. I think it would have wiped my a*** if only I
could have found the right menu option. Driving is being de skilled.

Yes - my car does everything but the wipe. And stops/starts itself in
traffic. :-)

Same here, and it's a Ford!

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 26/01/2020 20:19, bert wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 24/01/2020 11:18, NY wrote:
Sadly, more and more drivers use their footbrake all the time that
theyÂ* are stopped - do they even know where the handbrake is? I
suspect theÂ* worst culprits are those with automatic transmission who
stay in DriveÂ* with the footbrake on to prevent them creeping
forwards, rather thanÂ* knocking it into neutral until they are about
to set off again.

The use of the handbrake is mandatory in a clutched car. Your left
foot has to be on the clutch and the right on the accelerator.
In the case of an automatioc its almost the exact opposite. You have
to learn to left foot brake to control the car in theÂ* same way you
can a clutched car: that is, fixed accelerator and then control uptake
on the left foot by releasing the brake insietd of the clutch.

My current car has an electric motorised handbrake. It's called a
'parking brake' and thats ALL it is designed for, and its riddy
awkward to iuse in a traffic queue on a slope as it takes an
appreciable time to disengage


Drove an automatic RR Evoque recently. Automatically prevented creep,
automatically prevented roll back, automatically released brake when
accelerator pressed. I think it would have wiped my a*** if only I could
have found the right menu option. Driving is being de skilled.

Worse, I had noticed the car was very sluggish on starting from stop in
a hurry. Turns out the engine management system is programmed to wait
until the handbrake is disengaged even when it was never engaged at all
in the first place.

Trick is to keep left foot on the brake and gun the bitch and then it
goes like a rocket...


--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

"Rod Speed" Wrote in message:


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 24/01/2020 11:18, NY wrote:
Sadly, more and more drivers use their footbrake all the time that they
are stopped - do they even know where the handbrake is? I suspect the
worst culprits are those with automatic transmission who stay in Drive
with the footbrake on to prevent them creeping forwards, rather than
knocking it into neutral until they are about to set off again.

The use of the handbrake is mandatory in a clutched car. Your left foot
has to be on the clutch and the right on the accelerator.
In the case of an automatioc its almost the exact opposite. You have to
learn to left foot brake to control the car in the same way you can a
clutched car: that is, fixed accelerator and then control uptake on the
left foot by releasing the brake insietd of the clutch.

My current car has an electric motorised handbrake. It's called a 'parking
brake' and thats ALL it is designed for, and its riddy awkward to iuse in
a traffic queue on a slope as it takes an appreciable time to disengage


Drove an automatic RR Evoque recently. Automatically prevented creep,
automatically prevented roll back, automatically released brake when
accelerator pressed.

I think it would have wiped my a*** if only I could have found the right
menu option.

No roller would stoop to that level.

RR != Rolls Royce, ****wit :-D:-D:-D


--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

In article ,
Ray wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ray wrote:
Fark. I was considering a PDK for my next car. **** that.

Other than the above, it's brilliant.

Sure, but I am ****ed if I am going to fart around
putting it out of drive every time I have to stop for
long in traffic.

Actually less effort than putting on the handbrake.

Sure, but I never do that. I do use the handbrake
when starting off up a steep hill after stopping in
traffic, instead of doing the alternative heal and toe
approach, but never use the hand brake when when
stopped in traffic. Always use it when parked.

You drive a manual at present? All autos creep on the level, unless the
brakes are applied. My PDK works just fine provided you don't mind the
brake lights being on all the time. It even has a hill hold feature. What
it doesn't seem to like is the handbrake on and being in drive for long
periods on a hot day. BTW, I left foot brake on an auto.

I don't like having the brake lights
on all the time I'm stopped.

I don’t care.

In which case it will be fine.

When you know you're going to be stopped
for some time like at traffic lights.

I don’t care and never find that I ease off on
the brake pedal and find the car moving either.

I might turn the engine off and apply the handbrake
when it a very long line of stopped traffic after a major
accident that sees the road closed completely for hours
but that’s so rare that its not worth considering.

It only happened the once here.

--
*If horrific means to make horrible, does terrific mean to make terrible?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
ARW wrote:
On 26/01/2020 14:46, polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Sunday, 26 January 2020 14:43:24 UTC, ARW wrote:
On 26/01/2020 10:46, polygonum_on_google wrote:
I'd say I find it nearly impossible to point a finger at a car and predict how the driver will behave.


I have a 90% success rate at playing "spot the split arse".


Not just from make, though. Behaviour is, IME, far more of a guide.


Yes I agree, but the make and model does help on occasions.


Have you ever played the game?

I remember it being said down the pub that only BMWs drove around with the
front fogs on. Some years ago.

So we decided on a challenge. Sit outside the pub and log the cars going
past with front fogs on. But you had to be certain they were fitted with
front fogs before counting the makes. After all, one without them couldn't
have them on.

BMW didn't win. ;-)

All that shows is we tend to look for results which prove what we already
know. Or think we know.

--
*i souport publik edekashun.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
bert wrote:
Drove an automatic RR Evoque recently. Automatically prevented creep,
automatically prevented roll back, automatically released brake when
accelerator pressed. I think it would have wiped my a*** if only I could
have found the right menu option. Driving is being de skilled.

How do you move off slowly if it prevents creep?

--
*I will always cherish the initial misconceptions I had about you

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Monday, 27 January 2020 10:43:41 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

You drive a manual at present? All autos creep on the level, unless the
brakes are applied. My PDK works just fine provided you don't mind the
brake lights being on all the time. It even has a hill hold feature. What
it doesn't seem to like is the handbrake on and being in drive for long
periods on a hot day. BTW, I left foot brake on an auto.

My car has a 7-speed DSG gearbox (which is broadly similar to PDK). And the parking brake applies automatically when it comes to a complete stop. So I don't think about keeping my foot on the brake pedal, nor do I apply the parking brake. But nor do I even consider knocking it out of drive under normal circumstances.

On 26/01/2020 22:06, mm0fmf wrote:
On 26/01/2020 20:19, bert wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 24/01/2020 11:18, NY wrote:
Sadly, more and more drivers use their footbrake all the time that
theyÂ* are stopped - do they even know where the handbrake is? I
suspect theÂ* worst culprits are those with automatic transmission
who stay in DriveÂ* with the footbrake on to prevent them creeping
forwards, rather thanÂ* knocking it into neutral until they are about
to set off again.

The use of the handbrake is mandatory in a clutched car. Your left
foot has to be on the clutch and the right on the accelerator.
In the case of an automatioc its almost the exact opposite. You have
to learn to left foot brake to control the car in theÂ* same way you
can a clutched car: that is, fixed accelerator and then control
uptake on the left foot by releasing the brake insietd of the clutch.

My current car has an electric motorised handbrake. It's called a
'parking brake' and thats ALL it is designed for, and its riddy
awkward to iuse in a traffic queue on a slope as it takes an
appreciable time to disengage


Drove an automatic RR Evoque recently. Automatically prevented creep,
automatically prevented roll back, automatically released brake when
accelerator pressed. I think it would have wiped my a*** if only I
could have found the right menu option. Driving is being de skilled.

But being a Range Rover all those functions will soon fail or become
intermittent and cost an arm, two legs and liver to repair.
very true...

In article ,
polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Monday, 27 January 2020 10:43:41 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

You drive a manual at present? All autos creep on the level, unless the
brakes are applied. My PDK works just fine provided you don't mind the
brake lights being on all the time. It even has a hill hold feature. What
it doesn't seem to like is the handbrake on and being in drive for long
periods on a hot day. BTW, I left foot brake on an auto.

My car has a 7-speed DSG gearbox (which is broadly similar to PDK). And
the parking brake applies automatically when it comes to a complete
stop. So I don't think about keeping my foot on the brake pedal, nor do
I apply the parking brake. But nor do I even consider knocking it out of
drive under normal circumstances.

Mine is an older version with no auto parking brake. Just a conventional
handbrake.

But could you clarify? It applies the parking brake as soon as you come to
a complete stop? So no need to keep the footbrake applied at a red traffic
light etc? And disengages the clutch totally?

--
*Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 26/01/2020 20:19, bert wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 24/01/2020 11:18, NY wrote:
Sadly, more and more drivers use their footbrake all the time that
theyÂ* are stopped - do they even know where the handbrake is? I
suspect theÂ* worst culprits are those with automatic transmission who
stay in DriveÂ* with the footbrake on to prevent them creeping
forwards, rather thanÂ* knocking it into neutral until they are about
to set off again.

The use of the handbrake is mandatory in a clutched car. Your left
foot has to be on the clutch and the right on the accelerator.
In the case of an automatioc its almost the exact opposite. You have
to learn to left foot brake to control the car in theÂ* same way you
can a clutched car: that is, fixed accelerator and then control uptake
on the left foot by releasing the brake insietd of the clutch.

My current car has an electric motorised handbrake. It's called a
'parking brake' and thats ALL it is designed for, and its riddy
awkward to iuse in a traffic queue on a slope as it takes an
appreciable time to disengage


Drove an automatic RR Evoque recently. Automatically prevented creep,
automatically prevented roll back, automatically released brake when
accelerator pressed. I think it would have wiped my a*** if only I could
have found the right menu option. Driving is being de skilled.

Automatically drives itself onto the recovery vehicle when it goes
wrong ??.

There is a Land Rover dealer locally and new-ish Range rovers
being unloaded from recovery vehicles on the forecourt is a
regular occurence.

On Monday, 27 January 2020 11:10:53 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Monday, 27 January 2020 10:43:41 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

You drive a manual at present? All autos creep on the level, unless the
brakes are applied. My PDK works just fine provided you don't mind the
brake lights being on all the time. It even has a hill hold feature. What
it doesn't seem to like is the handbrake on and being in drive for long
periods on a hot day. BTW, I left foot brake on an auto.

My car has a 7-speed DSG gearbox (which is broadly similar to PDK). And
the parking brake applies automatically when it comes to a complete
stop. So I don't think about keeping my foot on the brake pedal, nor do
I apply the parking brake. But nor do I even consider knocking it out of
drive under normal circumstances.

Mine is an older version with no auto parking brake. Just a conventional
handbrake.

But could you clarify? It applies the parking brake as soon as you come to
a complete stop? So no need to keep the footbrake applied at a red traffic
light etc? And disengages the clutch totally?

The car stops, and within probably some fraction of a second, the parking brake applies and the clutch seems to totally disengage.

When I want to move off again, I gently press the accelerator, which then uses the clutch and starts moving - releasing the parking brake at the right moment. It also has hill start assist.

Mind, sometimes I do feel it doesn't do quite such a good job as it should with a little bit of a jerk as it starts/releases parking brake.

(Bloomin' confusing going back to the other car I regularly drive which, whilst auto, is entirely different.)

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
You drive a manual at present?

Yes. I like to control when the car changes gear so I don't get a sudden
surge of power if the car changes down when I wasn't expecting it - eg in
response to a slight increase in throttle where I'd stay in the same gear in
a manual.

DSGs are great for *performing* the gear change with a smoothness that most
manual drivers (me included) cannot always achieve. But I would want to
remain in control of *when* the gearchange occurred.

I've driven autos and found them difficult to predict - I find myself
*fighting* a gearbox that changes down to readily, so I back off the power
if it changes down unexpectedly, and the damn thing changes back up -
hitting the happy medium of moderate, controlled acceleration can be
difficult. Most of my auto experience was a long time ago in the 1980s, on
my Dad's Ford Sierra and various Honda Accords, but I have driven a few Ford
Fiesta-size auto loan cars when my car has been in the garage.
..
All autos creep on the level, unless the
brakes are applied. My PDK works just fine provided you don't mind the
brake lights being on all the time. It even has a hill hold feature.

What it doesn't seem to like is the handbrake on and being in drive for
long periods on a hot day.

Which is why I would always put an auto into neutral if I was stopped for
more than a few seconds - exactly as for a manual - so I can come off the
footbrake and use the handbrake. I might even use park, but only if I was
stuck in a traffic jam with no chance of setting off in the next five
minutes - and only if the brief flash of the reversing lights as I moved
from park to drive wasn't going to scare the car behind ;-)

You'll probably say that I'm trying to drive an auto too much as I'd drive a
manual, as regards neutral and handbrake when stopped ;-)

On Monday, 27 January 2020 12:20:44 UTC, NY wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
You drive a manual at present?

Yes. I like to control when the car changes gear so I don't get a sudden
surge of power if the car changes down when I wasn't expecting it - eg in
response to a slight increase in throttle where I'd stay in the same gear in
a manual.

DSGs are great for *performing* the gear change with a smoothness that most
manual drivers (me included) cannot always achieve. But I would want to
remain in control of *when* the gearchange occurred.

Can always choose the manual mode - at least, on my DSG I have the choice. Including flippers on steering wheel.

Man in dealer when I was looking around (a few years ago now), said that most people play with the flippers a few times when they first drive a DSG car. Then never use them again.

In article ,
polygonum_on_google wrote:
But could you clarify? It applies the parking brake as soon as you
come to a complete stop? So no need to keep the footbrake applied at a
red traffic light etc? And disengages the clutch totally?

The car stops, and within probably some fraction of a second, the
parking brake applies and the clutch seems to totally disengage.

When I want to move off again, I gently press the accelerator, which
then uses the clutch and starts moving - releasing the parking brake at
the right moment. It also has hill start assist.

Mind, sometimes I do feel it doesn't do quite such a good job as it
should with a little bit of a jerk as it starts/releases parking brake.

Ah - right. I have to apply the foot brake to engage drive, so after that
all I have to do is release the footbrake for it to move off slowly, as in
creeping in a traffic jam.

(Bloomin' confusing going back to the other car I regularly drive which,
whilst auto, is entirely different.)

Seems there is no 100% perfect solution if you don't want the brake lights
on all the time you're stopped. ;-)

--
*Save the whale - I'll have it for my supper*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
bert wrote:
Drove an automatic RR Evoque recently. Automatically prevented creep,
automatically prevented roll back, automatically released brake when
accelerator pressed. I think it would have wiped my a*** if only I could
have found the right menu option. Driving is being de skilled.

How do you move off slowly if it prevents creep?

I think creep is, by (informal) definition, uncommanded.


--

Roger Hayter

NY wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
You drive a manual at present?

Yes. I like to control when the car changes gear so I don't get a sudden
surge of power if the car changes down when I wasn't expecting it - eg in
response to a slight increase in throttle where I'd stay in the same gear in
a manual.

DSGs are great for *performing* the gear change with a smoothness that most
manual drivers (me included) cannot always achieve. But I would want to
remain in control of *when* the gearchange occurred.

I've driven autos and found them difficult to predict - I find myself
*fighting* a gearbox that changes down to readily, so I back off the power
if it changes down unexpectedly, and the damn thing changes back up -
hitting the happy medium of moderate, controlled acceleration can be
difficult. Most of my auto experience was a long time ago in the 1980s, on
my Dad's Ford Sierra and various Honda Accords, but I have driven a few Ford
Fiesta-size auto loan cars when my car has been in the garage.
.
All autos creep on the level, unless the
brakes are applied. My PDK works just fine provided you don't mind the
brake lights being on all the time. It even has a hill hold feature.

What it doesn't seem to like is the handbrake on and being in drive for
long periods on a hot day.

Which is why I would always put an auto into neutral if I was stopped for
more than a few seconds - exactly as for a manual - so I can come off the
footbrake and use the handbrake. I might even use park, but only if I was
stuck in a traffic jam with no chance of setting off in the next five
minutes - and only if the brief flash of the reversing lights as I moved
from park to drive wasn't going to scare the car behind ;-)

You'll probably say that I'm trying to drive an auto too much as I'd drive a
manual, as regards neutral and handbrake when stopped ;-)



I think what you do is exactly the right thing to do with torque
converter transmission. I've no idea about the newer systems. Perhaps
if they disengage completely when stopped there is no reason to take
them out of "drive".
--

Roger Hayter

In article ,
NY wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
You drive a manual at present?

Yes. I like to control when the car changes gear so I don't get a sudden
surge of power if the car changes down when I wasn't expecting it - eg
in response to a slight increase in throttle where I'd stay in the same
gear in a manual.

A decent auto only changes down when you demand more acceleration from it
than it can provide in that gear. Not really come across one which does as
you've described.

DSGs are great for *performing* the gear change with a smoothness that
most manual drivers (me included) cannot always achieve. But I would
want to remain in control of *when* the gearchange occurred.

DSG to me is a single clutch box. They are anything but smooth changing.
The PDK (twin clutch) is as smooth as any auto - except if you kick it
down several gears. And if in that sort of hurry, smoothness likely
doesn't matter so much.

I've driven autos and found them difficult to predict - I find myself
*fighting* a gearbox that changes down to readily, so I back off the
power if it changes down unexpectedly, and the damn thing changes back
up - hitting the happy medium of moderate, controlled acceleration can
be difficult. Most of my auto experience was a long time ago in the
1980s, on my Dad's Ford Sierra and various Honda Accords, but I have
driven a few Ford Fiesta-size auto loan cars when my car has been in
the garage. .

Autos have come on a long way from those 3 speed days. And small modern
autos tend not to be state of the art. Being for a basically cheap car.

The first pretty decent auto I drove was the ZF 5 speed which arrived in
an early 90s BMW 5 Series. Modern TC autos for a similar cost car have
even more gears.

My PDK has 7. Seems enough. Very tall gearing for restful cruise and best
enonomy, and a low enough first for crawling in traffic and fast take off
from rest.

A similar TC box would likely be more refined for actually moving off from
rest - but with a slight MPG penalty. Only you can decide which you
prefer. But what the maker offers can make that decision for you. ;-)



All autos creep on the level, unless the brakes are applied. My PDK
works just fine provided you don't mind the brake lights being on all
the time. It even has a hill hold feature.

What it doesn't seem to like is the handbrake on and being in drive for
long periods on a hot day.

Which is why I would always put an auto into neutral if I was stopped
for more than a few seconds - exactly as for a manual - so I can come
off the footbrake and use the handbrake. I might even use park, but
only if I was stuck in a traffic jam with no chance of setting off in
the next five minutes - and only if the brief flash of the reversing
lights as I moved from park to drive wasn't going to scare the car
behind ;-)

The reverse lights on mine have a slight delay. They don't flash when
going from park to drive. Using park simply saves the extra operation of
applying the handbrake. As on most cars you have to apply the footbrake
before you can select drive anyway.

You'll probably say that I'm trying to drive an auto too much as I'd
drive a manual, as regards neutral and handbrake when stopped ;-)

And some modern manuals have auto parking brakes too. Not driven one,
though.

I think you'd be pleasantly surprised by a decent modern auto.

--
*I'm pretty sure that sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
polygonum_on_google wrote:
DSGs are great for *performing* the gear change with a smoothness that
most manual drivers (me included) cannot always achieve. But I would
want to remain in control of *when* the gearchange occurred.

Can always choose the manual mode - at least, on my DSG I have the
choice. Including flippers on steering wheel.

Man in dealer when I was looking around (a few years ago now), said that
most people play with the flippers a few times when they first drive a
DSG car. Then never use them again.

Quite. Mine as well as the steering wheel shifters allows you to move the
gearlever back or forward against a spring to change gear - like on a
motorbike. In manual mode I actually prefer that to the steering wheel
buttons. Later versions have paddles.

But other than playing with it, the auto generally works just fine.

--
*Why isn't 11 pronounced onety one? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
bert wrote:
Drove an automatic RR Evoque recently. Automatically prevented
creep, automatically prevented roll back, automatically released
brake when accelerator pressed. I think it would have wiped my a***
if only I could have found the right menu option. Driving is being
de skilled.

How do you move off slowly if it prevents creep?

I think creep is, by (informal) definition, uncommanded.

You control it with the brakes.

--
*If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
I think what you do is exactly the right thing to do with torque
converter transmission. I've no idea about the newer systems. Perhaps
if they disengage completely when stopped there is no reason to take
them out of "drive".

There's generally no need to put a TC transmission in neutral under heavy
traffic conditions, as the TC is designed to handle vastly more heat than
this generates. Like when going up hill, etc.

With a conventional clutch type, the clutch only 'slips' when moving off
from rest. With idling in a traffic jam in drive, it is slightly engaged
to provide the creep function. And since many are multi plate wet types,
may also drag slightly at all times when nominally disengaged, generating
some heat. But in neutral or park, any drag will simply spin the
layshaft(s)

--
*A 'jiffy' is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:04:17 -0000, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

Is it OK for rear fog lights to go off when the ignition is turned off?....

Who cares? I never ever use mine. They look like brake lights. So when you brake, the person behind doesn't know and slams into you. A very dangerous invention. Tail lights are enough for the following car to see you. If they aren't, they're driving too fast for the conditions and it's their problem.

On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:14:40 -0000, Andrew wrote:

On 24/01/2020 19:02, ARW wrote:
On 24/01/2020 07:45, Robin wrote:
On 24/01/2020 00:06, Brian Reay wrote:
NY wrote:
"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
On 23/01/2020 13:21, NY wrote:
"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
On 23/01/2020 12:04, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
Is it OK for rear fog lights to go off when the ignition is turned
off?....

Yes.

They should only be used on certain types of road (plus other
conditions), not for example in towns etc. Therefore you don't
need them
when the engine is off!

Is there actually any prohibition from using them on certain types of
road. I though the only rule was the obvious one of "turn off rear
fog
lights when the following car is so close that it will be dazzled by
them"?


Oh dear....

Rather than tutting, perhaps you'd like to point me to the exact
regulations. OK, so I omitted to say "only use them when it's foggy",
because I thought that was blindingly obvious, though many people
seem to
use them even when it's completely clear (not even light mist).

Is there something in the highway code about classes of road or its
speed
limit which regulates when they may or may not be used, despite
thick fog,
subject always to the "don't dazzle" rule.



Perhaps you should stop digging.


Did my similar question* yesterday not reach you or do you argue that
it's similarly not deserving of a substantive reply?

*"Why not in towns? I can't see anything in the Regulations or HC
that distinguishes them from any other location."



How would you know it was a town and not a large village?


Villages have idiots

Towns have more, as they're full of council estates.

On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 13:21:44 -0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
ARW wrote:
Villages have idiots

Are they the ones driving around with their fog lights on when there is
no fog?

I drive around 40 to 50 thousand miles a year and have done so for the
last 20 years.


How many times do you think in that time I have needed to use my fog
lights to meet the required 100m visibility guide line?

Very rarely. But no different from those who put headlights on as soon as
they see a cloud.

Auto headlights are crazy, they turn on when you drive through a slightly shaded area of trees, then off again after 5 seconds.

But the worst thing is the always on EU daytime running lights fiasco. First thing I do is to disconnect them. You don't needs lights to see something when the sun is out!

On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 11:20:39 -0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Robin wrote:
They don't make fog like they used to. I've done about 30,000 miles a
year from 1980 to 2010 and I really only recollect a couple of occasions
when rear foglights weren't a positive nuisance. OTOH I remember 2
weeks of freezing fog in Leeds in the 1960s when you couldn't see a lamp
post at arm's length.

I'm surprised you did not in those 30 years meet falling snow which
reduced visibility well below 100m. I did just while commuting 16 miles
a day in London!

Quite. Calling them fog lights is stupid. You're just as likely to have
the same poor visibility due to heavy rain or snow. I'd say heavy rain far
more common than fog these days.

If you can't see through rain, go to specsavers or replace your windscreen wipers.

You know what would really help in heavy rain? The re-invention of mudguards. Why do cars not have them anymore? They should be a legal requirement.

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
What
it doesn't seem to like is the handbrake on and being in drive for long
periods on a hot day. BTW, I left foot brake on an auto.
"Normal" autos should not be held in drive with brake on for long
periods esp. on a hot day - hydraulic fluid overheats.


--
bert

In article , mm0fmf
writes
On 26/01/2020 20:19, bert wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 24/01/2020 11:18, NY wrote:
Sadly, more and more drivers use their footbrake all the time that
they* are stopped - do they even know where the handbrake is? I
suspect the* worst culprits are those with automatic transmission
who stay in Drive* with the footbrake on to prevent them creeping
forwards, rather than* knocking it into neutral until they are about


The use of the handbrake is mandatory in a clutched car. Your left
foot has to be on the clutch and the right on the accelerator.
In the case of an automatioc its almost the exact opposite. You have
to learn to left foot brake to control the car in the* same way you
can a clutched car: that is, fixed accelerator and then control
uptake on the left foot by releasing the brake insietd of the clutch.

My current car has an electric motorised handbrake. It's called a
'parking brake' and thats ALL it is designed for, and its riddy
awkward to iuse in a traffic queue on a slope as it takes an
appreciable time to disengage


Drove an automatic RR Evoque recently. Automatically prevented creep,
automatically prevented roll back, automatically released brake when
accelerator pressed. I think it would have wiped my a*** if only I
could have found the right menu option. Driving is being de skilled.

But being a Range Rover all those functions will soon fail or become
intermittent and cost an arm, two legs and liver to repair.
Oh no much simpler than that. It would insist telling me that the washer
bottle needed filling - even though the Dealer staff had just filled
it!!
--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
bert wrote:
Drove an automatic RR Evoque recently. Automatically prevented creep,
automatically prevented roll back, automatically released brake when
accelerator pressed. I think it would have wiped my a*** if only I could
have found the right menu option. Driving is being de skilled.

How do you move off slowly if it prevents creep?

Didn't get that far. It was a courtesy car so I wasn't really doing
"moving off slowly"
--
bert

On 27/01/2020 14:39, bert wrote:
In article , mm0fmf writes
On 26/01/2020 20:19, bert wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 24/01/2020 11:18, NY wrote:
Sadly, more and more drivers use their footbrake all the time that
theyÂ* are stopped - do they even know where the handbrake is? I
suspect theÂ* worst culprits are those with automatic transmission
whoÂ* stay in DriveÂ* with the footbrake on to prevent them creeping
forwards, rather thanÂ* knocking it into neutral until they are about

The use of the handbrake is mandatory in a clutched car. Your left
foot has to be on the clutch and the right on the accelerator.
In the case of an automatioc its almost the exact opposite. You have
to learn to left foot brake to control the car in theÂ* same way you
can a clutched car: that is, fixed accelerator and then control
uptakeÂ* on the left foot by releasing the brake insietd of the clutch.

My current car has an electric motorised handbrake. It's called a
'parking brake' and thats ALL it is designed for, and its riddy
awkward to iuse in a traffic queue on a slope as it takes an
appreciable time to disengage


Drove an automatic RR Evoque recently. Automatically prevented creep,
automatically prevented roll back, automatically released brake when
accelerator pressed. I think it would have wiped my a*** if only I
couldÂ* have found the right menu option. Driving is being de skilled.

But being a Range Rover all those functions will soon fail or become
intermittent and cost an arm, two legs and liver to repair.
Oh no much simpler than that. It would insist telling me that the washer
bottle needed filling - even though the Dealer staff had just filled it!!
FILL THE BOTTLE NOW

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
I think what you do is exactly the right thing to do with torque
converter transmission. I've no idea about the newer systems. Perhaps
if they disengage completely when stopped there is no reason to take
them out of "drive".

There's generally no need to put a TC transmission in neutral under heavy
traffic conditions, as the TC is designed to handle vastly more heat than
this generates. Like when going up hill, etc.

With a conventional clutch type, the clutch only 'slips' when moving off
from rest. With idling in a traffic jam in drive, it is slightly engaged
to provide the creep function. And since many are multi plate wet types,
may also drag slightly at all times when nominally disengaged, generating
some heat. But in neutral or park, any drag will simply spin the
layshaft(s)

I was thinking more of avoiding the need to keep my foot on the brake,
rather than "wear" (heating up) of the torque converter. I imagine that most
handbrakes aren't enough to prevent an auto creeping in drive - or at least,
can't be *guaranteed* to avoid it...

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.0e12ges3wdg98l@glass...
On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:04:17 -0000, Jim GM4DHJ ...
wrote:

Is it OK for rear fog lights to go off when the ignition is turned
off?....

Who cares? I never ever use mine. They look like brake lights. So when
you brake, the person behind doesn't know and slams into you. A very
dangerous invention. Tail lights are enough for the following car to see
you. If they aren't, they're driving too fast for the conditions and it's
their problem.

Or, to look at it another way, they need to get dangerously close to you
before they even know you are there. And while it may be their *fault* if
they run into the back of you, there's still damage to your car even if
their insurance pays for it.

On Monday, 27 January 2020 13:53:08 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

DSG to me is a single clutch box. They are anything but smooth changing.
The PDK (twin clutch) is as smooth as any auto - except if you kick it
down several gears. And if in that sort of hurry, smoothness likely
doesn't matter so much.

DSG to me is dual clutch! Very smooth. 7 gears.

On Monday, 27 January 2020 13:53:08 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
polygonum_on_google wrote:
DSGs are great for *performing* the gear change with a smoothness that
most manual drivers (me included) cannot always achieve. But I would
want to remain in control of *when* the gearchange occurred.

Can always choose the manual mode - at least, on my DSG I have the
choice. Including flippers on steering wheel.

Man in dealer when I was looking around (a few years ago now), said that
most people play with the flippers a few times when they first drive a
DSG car. Then never use them again.

Quite. Mine as well as the steering wheel shifters allows you to move the
gearlever back or forward against a spring to change gear - like on a
motorbike. In manual mode I actually prefer that to the steering wheel
buttons. Later versions have paddles.

But other than playing with it, the auto generally works just fine.

Yes, can do it on the gear shift lever thingy as well.

About the only thing I ever do is occasionally choose S ("Sport") mode, which keeps the gearing much lower. Without that it is often in 7 at just a bit over 40. (Depends on general settings, Comfort, Economy, etc.)

However, it does change down very obviously and positively - but it only does that under the control of the Adapative Cruise Control, if I am using it. Jolly effective when going downhill.

On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 15:44:44 -0000, NY, another mentally challenged,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered:


Or, to look at it another way, they need to get dangerously close to you
before they even know you are there.

Not that close in his case. People reported that they can SMELL him, you
troll-feeding senile idiot!

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.0e12ges3wdg98l@glass...
On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:04:17 -0000, Jim GM4DHJ ...
wrote:

Is it OK for rear fog lights to go off when the ignition is turned
off?....

Who cares? I never ever use mine. They look like brake lights. So when
you brake, the person behind doesn't know and slams into you. A very
dangerous invention. Tail lights are enough for the following car to see
you. If they aren't, they're driving too fast for the conditions and it's
their problem.

And yours when you have to do something
that you wouldn't have had to do if they
hadn't run into the back of your car.

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.0e18vcyvwdg98l@glass...
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 15:44:44 -0000, NY wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.0e12ges3wdg98l@glass...
On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:04:17 -0000, Jim GM4DHJ ...
wrote:

Is it OK for rear fog lights to go off when the ignition is turned
off?....

Who cares? I never ever use mine. They look like brake lights. So
when
you brake, the person behind doesn't know and slams into you. A very
dangerous invention. Tail lights are enough for the following car to
see
you. If they aren't, they're driving too fast for the conditions and
it's
their problem.

Or, to look at it another way, they need to get dangerously close to you
before they even know you are there. And while it may be their *fault* if
they run into the back of you, there's still damage to your car even if
their insurance pays for it.

It's not dangerously close, I can see taillights easily in the fog. If I
can't, then I'm going so fast I'm going to run off the road anyway.

As for damage, when the front of a car hits the back of a car, the front
gets 10 times more damage (due to health and softy regulations). I have
in fact had nothing more than a chip of paint on the back of my car,
whereas the woman (it's always a woman) that rear ended me lost a
radiator, both headlights, the bumper, and the bonnet.

But you can see loss of lights and the hatch unusable with hatches.

On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 17:02:28 -0000, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.0e12ges3wdg98l@glass...
On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:04:17 -0000, Jim GM4DHJ ...
wrote:

Is it OK for rear fog lights to go off when the ignition is turned
off?....

Who cares? I never ever use mine. They look like brake lights. So when
you brake, the person behind doesn't know and slams into you. A very
dangerous invention. Tail lights are enough for the following car to see
you. If they aren't, they're driving too fast for the conditions and it's
their problem.

And yours when you have to do something
that you wouldn't have had to do if they
hadn't run into the back of your car.

The back of a car is 10 times stronger than the front. I've had a paint scratch vs. a broken radiator, two headlights, a bumper, and a bonnet. And she was only going 20mph more than me. Perfectly good weather, but she wasn't paying attention and didn't notice the queue of traffic ahead of her had slowed from 50mph to 30mph.

On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 17:18:06 -0000, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.0e18vcyvwdg98l@glass...
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 15:44:44 -0000, NY wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.0e12ges3wdg98l@glass...
On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:04:17 -0000, Jim GM4DHJ ...
wrote:

Is it OK for rear fog lights to go off when the ignition is turned
off?....

Who cares? I never ever use mine. They look like brake lights. So
when
you brake, the person behind doesn't know and slams into you. A very
dangerous invention. Tail lights are enough for the following car to
see
you. If they aren't, they're driving too fast for the conditions and
it's
their problem.

Or, to look at it another way, they need to get dangerously close to you
before they even know you are there. And while it may be their *fault* if
they run into the back of you, there's still damage to your car even if
their insurance pays for it.

It's not dangerously close, I can see taillights easily in the fog. If I
can't, then I'm going so fast I'm going to run off the road anyway.

As for damage, when the front of a car hits the back of a car, the front
gets 10 times more damage (due to health and softy regulations). I have
in fact had nothing more than a chip of paint on the back of my car,
whereas the woman (it's always a woman) that rear ended me lost a
radiator, both headlights, the bumper, and the bonnet.

But you can see loss of lights and the hatch unusable with hatches.

No big deal to fix, and since it's their insurance paying, I usually make a whacking big profit. Like I'm going to buy new parts.... I was once paid £700 by a woman's insurance for hitting the side of me reversing out of a car park. It cost me £75. I kept the rest.

On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 04:18:06 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH troll****

04:18??? Did you "sleep in" today, you sleepless Ozzie troll? LOL

--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
your particular prowess at it every day."
MID:

On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 04:02:28 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH troll****

04:02??? Do your psychiatrists know HOW you spend your nights, you
clinically insane 85-year-old trolling senile pest? BG

--
Marland answering senile Rodent's statement, "I don't leak":
"That¢s because so much **** and ****e emanates from your gob that there is
nothing left to exit normally, your arsehole has clammed shut through disuse
and the end of prick is only clear because you are such a ******."
Message-ID: