"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 30/12/2019 18:25:04, Ray wrote:


"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 30/12/2019 17:44:56, Ray wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 30/12/2019 14:08:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
A gas air heater for the entire house is much simpler again.

Takes up a lot of room to make a decent quiet one.

There are also consequences for people with allergies.

Then even more room for decent filters. ;-)

Don’t need anything special filter wise. The
combustion exhaust gasses never get anywhere
near the air in the house, just like they don’t
with a water based boiler.

Sigh

Heavy breathing isnt going to save your bacon.

The issue is with dust, that is blown around by the fan in the
boiler/heat exchanger/wherever.

In fact that doesn’t happen because that would
see draughts. And they have dust filters anyway,

Which are only partly effective.

Bull**** the best of them are.

You have a choice, accept overwhelming evidence of claimed issues,

No such animal and doesn’t explain why only
you lot are stupid enough to bother with wet
heating systems world wide.

On Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:34:10 +0000
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 30/12/2019 19:32, Fredxx wrote:
On 30/12/2019 18:09:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/12/2019 16:38, Fredxx wrote:
It had a scene where they installed insulation in one loft, went
to the next terraced house and simply moved the insulation along,
obviously getting paid for the materials as they went along.
Obviously they get rumbled and chased. They lived in a gas
holder!
Ah. Your family I presume?

You really do have a chip on your shoulder. Lost an argument
recently?

I have never lived in a terraced house, nor a gas holder.


Well you would say that wouldn't you?

You dont like losing arguments, do you?



A war of turds, lovely!

On 30/12/2019 20:49:21, Ray wrote:


"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 30/12/2019 18:25:04, Ray wrote:


"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 30/12/2019 17:44:56, Ray wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
* Fredxx wrote:
On 30/12/2019 14:08:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
**** Fredxx wrote:
A gas air heater for the entire house is much simpler again.

Takes up a lot of room to make a decent quiet one.

There are also consequences for people with allergies.

Then even more room for decent filters. ;-)

Don’t need anything special filter wise. The
combustion exhaust gasses never get anywhere
near the air in the house, just like they don’t
with a water based boiler.

Sigh

Heavy breathing isnt going to save your bacon.

The issue is with dust, that is blown around by the fan in the
boiler/heat exchanger/wherever.

In fact that doesn’t happen because that would
see draughts. And they have dust filters anyway,

Which are only partly effective.

Bull**** the best of them are.

You have a choice, accept overwhelming evidence of claimed issues,

No such animal and doesn’t explain why only
you lot are stupid enough to bother with wet
heating systems world wide.


You have a choice, accept overwhelming evidence of claimed issues, or
bury your head in sand. It looks you've already chosen.

"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 30/12/2019 20:49:21, Ray wrote:


"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 30/12/2019 18:25:04, Ray wrote:


"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 30/12/2019 17:44:56, Ray wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 30/12/2019 14:08:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
A gas air heater for the entire house is much simpler again.

Takes up a lot of room to make a decent quiet one.

There are also consequences for people with allergies.

Then even more room for decent filters. ;-)

Don’t need anything special filter wise. The
combustion exhaust gasses never get anywhere
near the air in the house, just like they don’t
with a water based boiler.

Sigh

Heavy breathing isnt going to save your bacon.

The issue is with dust, that is blown around by the fan in the
boiler/heat exchanger/wherever.

In fact that doesn’t happen because that would
see draughts. And they have dust filters anyway,

Which are only partly effective.

Bull**** the best of them are.

You have a choice, accept overwhelming evidence of claimed issues,

No such animal and doesn’t explain why only
you lot are stupid enough to bother with wet
heating systems world wide.


You have a choice, accept overwhelming evidence

Yeah, all those UK supermarkets with massive
great wet radiators down every aisle and all
those poms dying like flies when they are
actually stupid enough to dare to use an
Aldi or a Lidl that are stupid enough to heat
the place using hot air systems instead.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 07:49:21 +1100, Ray, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH senile asshole's troll****

07:49??? That's another FOUR AND A HALF HOURS of your insipid nightly
trolling (since 03:18), you abnormal senile pest! Yet AGAIN! LOL

--
dennis@home to retarded senile Rot:
"sod off rod you don't have a clue about anything."
Message-ID:

On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 08:31:28 +1100, Ray, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH senile cretin's troll****

08:31 already? And you STILL can't go to bed, you clinically insane pest?
Yet AGAIN? LMAO

--
The Natural Philosopher about senile Rot:
"Rod speed is not a Brexiteer. He is an Australian troll and arsehole."
Message-ID:

On Sunday, 29 December 2019 16:48:17 UTC, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
John Rumm posted
On 28/12/2019 17:16, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
T i m posted

Talking to a heating engineer the other day he didn't seem to be too
impressed with Vaillant.
Nor am I. We had one installed a few months ago and it is bloody
awful. The software appears to be rigged to make the thing heat the
place up as slowly as possible, and no amount of fiddling with the
settings will remedy it.

In which case, it sounds like the installer has not set it up
correctly. There is no reason it should take any longer to heat the
place than any other boiler of comparable power.

Only that the design makes it do so, apparently regardless of any of the
d-register settings. A bit of googling shows that this is a very common
complaint about Ecotec 600 series models.

Surely if it won't run at its manufacturer described power it's either faulty or not as described.

There are external factors that can cause boilers to do such things of course, but since your primary cct is running at such a low temp, poor flow does not appear to be the cause.


NT

On Sunday, 29 December 2019 19:57:16 UTC, David Wade wrote:
On 29/12/2019 18:27, newshound wrote:

That would be my guess too. Given that both "Which" and regular posters
here tend to put Vaillant and Worcester Bosch at the top of the pile
particularly for hardware.

I found the criteria Which use is somewhat unclear. They also don't
appear to have actually tested ANY boilers. They simply quote "Brand
Reliability" so how reliable a brand is overall. Of the Ideal they say...

Pros
Good reliability record and customers and engineers are fond of the brand.

Cons
No significant cons.


I also know when I read some of the other reviews(e.g. TVs) there are
aspects of their testing which strikes of "Political Correctness". I
have an LG which TV which is rated a "best buy" but it has a really
annoying "feature" where when you open the program guide the TV channel
stops playing instead of going to small screen like my LG... (which has
other grumbles)...


Dave

There are worse problems with Which reports, but is there a better survey out there?

On Sunday, 29 December 2019 20:58:37 UTC, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
John Rumm posted
On 29/12/2019 16:42, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
John Rumm posted
On 28/12/2019 17:16, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
T i m posted

Talking to a heating engineer the other day he didn't seem to be too
impressed with Vaillant.
Â*Nor am I. We had one installed a few months ago and it is bloody
awful.Â* The software appears to be rigged to make the thing heat the
place up asÂ* slowly as possible, and no amount of fiddling with the
settings willÂ* remedy it.

In which case, it sounds like the installer has not set it up
correctly. There is no reason it should take any longer to heat the
place than any other boiler of comparable power.
Only that the design makes it do so,

That sounds unlikely[1], and more to the point does not concur with my
experience, I have had no problem with my 624 bringing 21 rads up to
flow temperature quickly and warming the house as required.

How did you manage it, then? All advice gratefully received.

The installer left the boiler on factory default settings. I don't blame
him. The manual is almost completely incomprehensible to me, and I've
got an electronics engineering degree.

apparently regardless of any of the d-register settings. A bit of
googling shows that this is a very common complaint about Ecotec 600
series models.

That I can believe - but that does not make it the boiler's fault.

It does make it Vaillant's fault, though. My previous boiler (Potterton
Kingfisher, basic analogue controls, no software) worked straight out of
the box. Heated the place - six-bedroom Victorian detached house - in
minutes.

However without far more information on the actual installation and the
controls in use, probably not much else can be said at this point.

I have 14 rads all on the same circuit, controlled by a single on/off
room thermostat. Separate 2-way valves for CH and HW. Towel rad
connected to the bypass circuit. Completely standard.

I've already tried most of the advice available on the Web re adjusting
d-registers. It didn't work.

In some installs boilers simply won't work passably on default settings.


NT

On 30/12/2019 21:31, Ray wrote:


"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 30/12/2019 20:49:21, Ray wrote:


"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 30/12/2019 18:25:04, Ray wrote:


"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 30/12/2019 17:44:56, Ray wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Â* Fredxx wrote:
On 30/12/2019 14:08:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â*Â* Fredxx wrote:
A gas air heater for the entire house is much simpler again.

Takes up a lot of room to make a decent quiet one.

There are also consequences for people with allergies.

Then even more room for decent filters. ;-)

Dont need anything special filter wise. The
combustion exhaust gasses never get anywhere
near the air in the house, just like they dont
with a water based boiler.

Sigh

Heavy breathing isnt going to save your bacon.

The issue is with dust, that is blown around by the fan in the
boiler/heat exchanger/wherever.

In fact that doesnt happen because that would
see draughts. And they have dust filters anyway,

Which are only partly effective.

Bull**** the best of them are.

You have a choice, accept overwhelming evidence of claimed issues,

No such animal and doesnt explain why only
you lot are stupid enough to bother with wet
heating systems world wide.


You have a choice, accept overwhelming evidence

Yeah, all those UK supermarkets with massive
great wet radiators down every aisle and all
those poms dying like flies when they are
actually stupid enough to dare to use an
Aldi or a Lidl that are stupid enough to heat
the place using hot air systems instead.


To be fair those are wet systems at the core.
Usually refrigerant.

Chill the cabinets and use the heat to heat the store

--
€œThere are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isnt true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.€�

€”Soren Kierkegaard

In article ,
Ray wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
A gas air heater for the entire house is much simpler again.

Takes up a lot of room to make a decent quiet one.

No it doesn’t. Normally quite tall and not very wide or deep.

You only have the one room, then?

--
*Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Ray wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 30/12/2019 14:08:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
A gas air heater for the entire house is much simpler again.

Takes up a lot of room to make a decent quiet one.

There are also consequences for people with allergies.

Then even more room for decent filters. ;-)

Don’t need anything special filter wise. The
combustion exhaust gasses never get anywhere
near the air in the house, just like they don’t
with a water based boiler.

Good grief.

--
*Do paediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 31/12/2019 02:25, wrote:
On Sunday, 29 December 2019 16:48:17 UTC, The Marquis Saint Evremonde
wrote:
John Rumm posted
On 28/12/2019 17:16, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
T i m posted

Talking to a heating engineer the other day he didn't seem to
be too impressed with Vaillant.
Nor am I. We had one installed a few months ago and it is
bloody awful. The software appears to be rigged to make the
thing heat the place up as slowly as possible, and no amount
of fiddling with the settings will remedy it.

In which case, it sounds like the installer has not set it up
correctly. There is no reason it should take any longer to heat
the place than any other boiler of comparable power.

Only that the design makes it do so, apparently regardless of any
of the d-register settings. A bit of googling shows that this is a
very common complaint about Ecotec 600 series models.

Surely if it won't run at its manufacturer described power it's
either faulty or not as described.

There are external factors that can cause boilers to do such things
of course, but since your primary cct is running at such a low temp,
poor flow does not appear to be the cause.

Too much bypass flow would do it - the boiler would modulate right down
to try and not exceed the set point flow temperature.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 29/12/2019 16:50, Fredxx wrote:
On 29/12/2019 15:20:48, Max Demian wrote:
On 29/12/2019 14:56, Fredxx wrote:
On 29/12/2019 14:33:46, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Fredxx wrote:
I used an undersink water heater to provide sufficient hot water for
washing up. Electric shower negates any need for a combi.

Sometimes the simplest systems are the best.

Then you should have had night store electric heating too. ;-)

Something I detest. I have never known anyone to experience gas CH
have a good word for night storage radiators.

They're all right if you know how warm it's going to be the following
day and you want to heat the place 24 hours. Maybe the modern storage
heaters are better, but I found it hard to control the output of
stored heat.

A gas system boiler without any pumps or water valves is as simple as
you can get.

No pumps or valves? They must be quite complicated inside.

A simple system boiler has a variable speed fan and a modulating gas
valve. No other moving parts.

Pump?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 31/12/2019 14:56:01, John Rumm wrote:
On 29/12/2019 16:50, Fredxx wrote:
On 29/12/2019 15:20:48, Max Demian wrote:
On 29/12/2019 14:56, Fredxx wrote:
On 29/12/2019 14:33:46, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Fredxx wrote:
I used an undersink water heater to provide sufficient hot water for
washing up. Electric shower negates any need for a combi.

Sometimes the simplest systems are the best.

Then you should have had night store electric heating too. ;-)

Something I detest. I have never known anyone to experience gas CH
have a good word for night storage radiators.

They're all right if you know how warm it's going to be the following
day and you want to heat the place 24 hours. Maybe the modern storage
heaters are better, but I found it hard to control the output of
stored heat.

A gas system boiler without any pumps or water valves is as simple
as you can get.

No pumps or valves? They must be quite complicated inside.

A simple system boiler has a variable speed fan and a modulating gas
valve. No other moving parts.

Pump?

External to the boiler.

John Rumm posted
On 29/12/2019 20:49, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
It does make it Vaillant's fault, though. My previous boiler
(Potterton Kingfisher, basic analogue controls, no software) worked
straight out of the box. Heated the place - six-bedroom Victorian
detached house - in minutes.

Was the Potterton a modulating boiler? (i.e. could it vary its burner
output power, or did it always run at max output)

It ran at the output level set by the manual dial (which I assume was a
potentiometer connected to a thermometer or thermistor).

However without far more information on the actual installation and
the controls in use, probably not much else can be said at this point.
I have 14 rads all on the same circuit, controlled by a single
on/off room thermostat. Separate 2-way valves for CH and HW. Towel
rad connected to the bypass circuit. Completely standard.

How is this towel rail bypass configured?

For example, if the bypass was opening too soon / easily, then the
boiler would see the return temperature ramping up quickly to approach
the flow temperature. This would cause it to reduce boiler output power
to try and match the actual load - which because of the high return
temp would look very small.

I don't want it to do that.

You can also get a similar effect on a system that is well out of
balance such that the bulk of the flow passes through one or two rads,
and hence the boiler will again see a rapid rise in return temperature,
which it will interpret as the house being up to temperature, and so
back off the power.

I don't see what any of that has to do with it. If I set the flow
temperature setpoint to be 65degC, then that's what I want the boiler to
heat it to, as quickly as possible. What's the point of having a flow
temp control if the boiler then says to itself, Oh surely he doesn't
really mean that, I'll do what I prefer to do and he can lump it?

I will grant you this: when the flow temp has reached a few degrees
short of its setpoint, *then* the boiler can reasonably look at the
return temperature and modulate itself down a bit to prevent overshoot.
But meantime its business is to do what the room thermostat is telling
it to do - warm the place up as fast as it can.

Instead, it sits there with the burner modulated right down to the
lowest level, pumping out tepid water at 35-40degC. No wonder the return
temp is close to the actual flow temp; at those working temperatures
it's hardly going to lose much heat to the house is it?

I've already tried most of the advice available on the Web re
adjusting d-registers. It didn't work.

If its something to do with the setup of the wet bits, this might not
be something you can fix with a settings change. An old non modulating
boiler may perform better in circumstances like those described, since
it will run flat out until the stat turns it off or it cycles on the
its internal upper limit stat.

And cannot the Vaillant be configured to do this? If not, why not? As it
is, it's not much use to people like me, whose houses get cold and who
need them heated up quickly in the early morning.

--
Evremonde

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ray wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
A gas air heater for the entire house is much simpler again.

Takes up a lot of room to make a decent quiet one.

No it doesn't. Normally quite tall and not very wide or deep.

You only have the one room, then?

Works fine for the whole house.

On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 02:48:07 +1100, Ray, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH troll****

New Year, 02:48 in Australia? So you were all alone at home again. Nobody
invited you over or even talked to you. No wonder you never can sleep, you
despicable cantankerous senile pest!

--
Marland answering senile Rodent's statement, "I don't leak":
"That¢s because so much **** and ****e emanates from your gob that there is
nothing left to exit normally, your arsehole has clammed shut through disuse
and the end of prick is only clear because you are such a ******."
Message-ID:

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
A simple system boiler has a variable speed fan and a modulating gas
valve. No other moving parts.

Pump?

External to the boiler.

Which make of system boiler doesn't include a pump?

Would seem silly to me, since the idea of a system boiler is pretty well
everything in the one unit?

--
*Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
A simple system boiler has a variable speed fan and a modulating gas
valve. No other moving parts.

Pump?

External to the boiler.

Which make of system boiler doesn't include a pump?

Would seem silly to me, since the idea of a system boiler is pretty well
everything in the one unit?


That was my understanding. Pump, boiler and expansion vessel all in one
box.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 31/12/2019 16:45, Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
A simple system boiler has a variable speed fan and a modulating gas
valve. No other moving parts.

Pump?

External to the boiler.

Which make of system boiler doesn't include a pump?

Would seem silly to me, since the idea of a system boiler is pretty well
everything in the one unit?


That was my understanding. Pump, boiler and expansion vessel all in one
box.

Tim

And 3 way valve option as well.

On Saturday, 28 December 2019 14:28:38 UTC, David Wade wrote:
Folks,

For various reasons, I am reluctantly considering replacing my boiler.
As I only have a single shower/bath it looks like its going to be a
combi, but its going to have to go in a bedroom so I was worried about
the noise. My plumber has recommended an "Ideal" boiler as he says they
are good boilers and have a long guarantee. They seem to have good
reports on reliability and usability, and appear to be quiet.

Does any one have an Ideal Boiler and if so what do they think of them?

Dave



My advice is: buy something very common and easy to get serviced. We previously had an ATAG boiler, very fancy, stainless steel heatex, elaborate software, big modulation range, very expensive. We could never get it to behave as we wanted because it was so clever. Plus expensive parts. Service people typically had no experience of it.

Eventually we replaced it because it was so hard to find anyone to service it!

On 31/12/2019 14:56:01, John Rumm wrote:
On 29/12/2019 16:50, Fredxx wrote:
On 29/12/2019 15:20:48, Max Demian wrote:
On 29/12/2019 14:56, Fredxx wrote:
On 29/12/2019 14:33:46, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Fredxx wrote:
I used an undersink water heater to provide sufficient hot water for
washing up. Electric shower negates any need for a combi.

Sometimes the simplest systems are the best.

Then you should have had night store electric heating too. ;-)

Something I detest. I have never known anyone to experience gas CH
have a good word for night storage radiators.

They're all right if you know how warm it's going to be the following
day and you want to heat the place 24 hours. Maybe the modern storage
heaters are better, but I found it hard to control the output of
stored heat.

A gas system boiler without any pumps or water valves is as simple
as you can get.

No pumps or valves? They must be quite complicated inside.

A simple system boiler has a variable speed fan and a modulating gas
valve. No other moving parts.

Pump?

Ok I confess to meaning a heat only boiler such as:
https://www.baxi.co.uk/our-boilers/heat-only-boilers

These don't have a pump, or any of the other over priced paraphernalia
that can go wrong.

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 31/12/2019 14:56:01, John Rumm wrote:
On 29/12/2019 16:50, Fredxx wrote:
On 29/12/2019 15:20:48, Max Demian wrote:
On 29/12/2019 14:56, Fredxx wrote:
On 29/12/2019 14:33:46, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
I used an undersink water heater to provide sufficient hot water for
washing up. Electric shower negates any need for a combi.

Sometimes the simplest systems are the best.

Then you should have had night store electric heating too. ;-)

Something I detest. I have never known anyone to experience gas CH
have a good word for night storage radiators.

They're all right if you know how warm it's going to be the following
day and you want to heat the place 24 hours. Maybe the modern storage
heaters are better, but I found it hard to control the output of
stored heat.

A gas system boiler without any pumps or water valves is as simple
as you can get.

No pumps or valves? They must be quite complicated inside.

A simple system boiler has a variable speed fan and a modulating gas
valve. No other moving parts.

Pump?

Ok I confess to meaning a heat only boiler such as:
https://www.baxi.co.uk/our-boilers/heat-only-boilers

These don't have a pump, or any of the other over priced paraphernalia
that can go wrong.

I had my system pump replaces after 29 years. They don't go wrong that
frequently.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 31/12/2019 17:49:58, charles wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 31/12/2019 14:56:01, John Rumm wrote:
On 29/12/2019 16:50, Fredxx wrote:
On 29/12/2019 15:20:48, Max Demian wrote:
On 29/12/2019 14:56, Fredxx wrote:
On 29/12/2019 14:33:46, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
I used an undersink water heater to provide sufficient hot water for
washing up. Electric shower negates any need for a combi.

Sometimes the simplest systems are the best.

Then you should have had night store electric heating too. ;-)

Something I detest. I have never known anyone to experience gas CH
have a good word for night storage radiators.

They're all right if you know how warm it's going to be the following
day and you want to heat the place 24 hours. Maybe the modern storage
heaters are better, but I found it hard to control the output of
stored heat.

A gas system boiler without any pumps or water valves is as simple
as you can get.

No pumps or valves? They must be quite complicated inside.

A simple system boiler has a variable speed fan and a modulating gas
valve. No other moving parts.

Pump?

Ok I confess to meaning a heat only boiler such as:
https://www.baxi.co.uk/our-boilers/heat-only-boilers

These don't have a pump, or any of the other over priced paraphernalia
that can go wrong.

I had my system pump replaces after 29 years. They don't go wrong that
frequently.

I've had a pump fail, and a neighbour has gone through 2 3-port diverter
valves. It's pot luck. If it's outside of a boiler then it can def be a
DIY job.

On Tuesday, 31 December 2019 14:51:30 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 31/12/2019 02:25, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 29 December 2019 16:48:17 UTC, The Marquis Saint Evremonde
wrote:
John Rumm posted
On 28/12/2019 17:16, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
T i m posted

Talking to a heating engineer the other day he didn't seem to
be too impressed with Vaillant.
Nor am I. We had one installed a few months ago and it is
bloody awful. The software appears to be rigged to make the
thing heat the place up as slowly as possible, and no amount
of fiddling with the settings will remedy it.

In which case, it sounds like the installer has not set it up
correctly. There is no reason it should take any longer to heat
the place than any other boiler of comparable power.

Only that the design makes it do so, apparently regardless of any
of the d-register settings. A bit of googling shows that this is a
very common complaint about Ecotec 600 series models.

Surely if it won't run at its manufacturer described power it's
either faulty or not as described.

There are external factors that can cause boilers to do such things
of course, but since your primary cct is running at such a low temp,
poor flow does not appear to be the cause.

Too much bypass flow would do it - the boiler would modulate right down
to try and not exceed the set point flow temperature.

IIRC the water was returning to the boiler way below temp.
I know the Vaillant 4 series can be set to limit P_out to any velue in its range, I presume the 6 series can too.


NT

On Tuesday, 31 December 2019 15:33:35 UTC, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
John Rumm posted
On 29/12/2019 20:49, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
It does make it Vaillant's fault, though. My previous boiler
(Potterton Kingfisher, basic analogue controls, no software) worked
straight out of the box. Heated the place - six-bedroom Victorian
detached house - in minutes.

Was the Potterton a modulating boiler? (i.e. could it vary its burner
output power, or did it always run at max output)

It ran at the output level set by the manual dial (which I assume was a
potentiometer connected to a thermometer or thermistor).

However without far more information on the actual installation and
the controls in use, probably not much else can be said at this point.
I have 14 rads all on the same circuit, controlled by a single
on/off room thermostat. Separate 2-way valves for CH and HW. Towel
rad connected to the bypass circuit. Completely standard.

How is this towel rail bypass configured?

For example, if the bypass was opening too soon / easily, then the
boiler would see the return temperature ramping up quickly to approach
the flow temperature. This would cause it to reduce boiler output power
to try and match the actual load - which because of the high return
temp would look very small.

I don't want it to do that.

You can also get a similar effect on a system that is well out of
balance such that the bulk of the flow passes through one or two rads,
and hence the boiler will again see a rapid rise in return temperature,
which it will interpret as the house being up to temperature, and so
back off the power.

I don't see what any of that has to do with it. If I set the flow
temperature setpoint to be 65degC, then that's what I want the boiler to
heat it to, as quickly as possible. What's the point of having a flow
temp control if the boiler then says to itself, Oh surely he doesn't
really mean that, I'll do what I prefer to do and he can lump it?

I will grant you this: when the flow temp has reached a few degrees
short of its setpoint, *then* the boiler can reasonably look at the
return temperature and modulate itself down a bit to prevent overshoot.
But meantime its business is to do what the room thermostat is telling
it to do - warm the place up as fast as it can.

Instead, it sits there with the burner modulated right down to the
lowest level, pumping out tepid water at 35-40degC. No wonder the return
temp is close to the actual flow temp; at those working temperatures
it's hardly going to lose much heat to the house is it?

I've already tried most of the advice available on the Web re
adjusting d-registers. It didn't work.

If its something to do with the setup of the wet bits, this might not
be something you can fix with a settings change. An old non modulating
boiler may perform better in circumstances like those described, since
it will run flat out until the stat turns it off or it cycles on the
its internal upper limit stat.

And cannot the Vaillant be configured to do this? If not, why not? As it
is, it's not much use to people like me, whose houses get cold and who
need them heated up quickly in the early morning.

Vaillant 4 series have a compulsory timeout after every burn during which it refuses to fire up. Replace an old boiler that ran flat out & cycled a lot and those timeouts can cause an issue.


NT

On 31/12/2019 15:20, Fredxx wrote:
On 31/12/2019 14:56:01, John Rumm wrote:
On 29/12/2019 16:50, Fredxx wrote:
On 29/12/2019 15:20:48, Max Demian wrote:
On 29/12/2019 14:56, Fredxx wrote:
On 29/12/2019 14:33:46, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Fredxx wrote:
I used an undersink water heater to provide sufficient hot water for
washing up. Electric shower negates any need for a combi.

Sometimes the simplest systems are the best.

Then you should have had night store electric heating too. ;-)

Something I detest. I have never known anyone to experience gas CH
have a good word for night storage radiators.

They're all right if you know how warm it's going to be the
following day and you want to heat the place 24 hours. Maybe the
modern storage heaters are better, but I found it hard to control
the output of stored heat.

A gas system boiler without any pumps or water valves is as simple
as you can get.

No pumps or valves? They must be quite complicated inside.

A simple system boiler has a variable speed fan and a modulating gas
valve. No other moving parts.

Pump?

External to the boiler.

So its not a system boiler. (which should have all the components to
make a fully operational sealed system including pump, expansion vessel,
over temp / pressure release valve etc).

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

posted
On Tuesday, 31 December 2019 15:33:35 UTC, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
John Rumm posted
If its something to do with the setup of the wet bits, this might not
be something you can fix with a settings change. An old non modulating
boiler may perform better in circumstances like those described, since
it will run flat out until the stat turns it off or it cycles on the
its internal upper limit stat.

And cannot the Vaillant be configured to do this? If not, why not? As it
is, it's not much use to people like me, whose houses get cold and who
need them heated up quickly in the early morning.

Vaillant 4 series have a compulsory timeout after every burn during
which it refuses to fire up. Replace an old boiler that ran flat out &
cycled a lot and those timeouts can cause an issue.

So does the 6 series, though nominally the timeout can be adjusted by
changing one of the d-registers. Whether it actually does anything or
not I don't know; changing the partial load d-register didn't make any
difference.

--
Evremonde

In article ,
wrote:
Eventually we replaced it because it was so hard to find anyone to service it!

Just why would you want it serviced? All most only need is a visual check
- and a sniff of the flue gas to make sure it is burning OK. So the same
for all.

Fixing a broken one might be a different matter.

--
*I can see your point, but I still think you're full of ****.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
A simple system boiler has a variable speed fan and a modulating gas
valve. No other moving parts.

Pump?

Ok I confess to meaning a heat only boiler such as:
https://www.baxi.co.uk/our-boilers/heat-only-boilers

These don't have a pump, or any of the other over priced paraphernalia
that can go wrong.

I'd call that a basic electric boiler. And am surprised you can still buy
them. Given you need sophisticated management to get the best efficiency.

BTW, why do you think an external pump is not going to be an 'over priced
paraphernalia that can go wrong'?

--
*Never test the depth of the water with both feet.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
I've had a pump fail, and a neighbour has gone through 2 3-port diverter
valves. It's pot luck. If it's outside of a boiler then it can def be a
DIY job.

Really? Wouldn't that depend on how accessible it is? In both cases?

--
*Two wrongs are only the beginning *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Ray wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ray wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
A gas air heater for the entire house is much simpler again.

Takes up a lot of room to make a decent quiet one.

No it doesn't. Normally quite tall and not very wide or deep.

You only have the one room, then?

Works fine for the whole house.

Then it has trunking of some sort. That takes up more space than pipes.
Not saying you couldn't make a neat job in a new build. But for most a wet
system is going to be far neater.

--
*I didn't fight my way to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ray wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ray wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
A gas air heater for the entire house is much simpler again.

Takes up a lot of room to make a decent quiet one.

No it doesn't. Normally quite tall and not very wide or deep.

You only have the one room, then?

Works fine for the whole house.

Then it has trunking of some sort.

Yes.

That takes up more space than pipes.

Yes, but that isnt space where the people
are, its under the floor or in the roof space
where even your tiny houses have plenty
of unused space. And the total system is
much more reliable than a water based
system and much easier to fix with much
less to fix if anything does go wrong.

Not saying you couldn't make a neat job in a new build.
But for most a wet system is going to be far neater.

That’s bull****. No stupid radiators in all rooms,
at most an air register which is vastly neater.

On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 05:54:43 +1100, Ray, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH senile troll's troll****

05:54??? Whatsa matter did you "sleep in" today, senile Rodent? Or are you
just sicker than usual? LOL

--
Bill Wright addressing senile Ozzie cretin Rot Speed:
"Well you make up a lot of stuff and it's total ******** most of it."
MID:

On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 12:44:36 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
A simple system boiler has a variable speed fan and a modulating gas
valve. No other moving parts.

Pump?

Ok I confess to meaning a heat only boiler such as:
https://www.baxi.co.uk/our-boilers/heat-only-boilers

These don't have a pump, or any of the other over priced paraphernalia
that can go wrong.

I'd call that a basic electric boiler. And am surprised you can still buy
them. Given you need sophisticated management to get the best efficiency.

They look like normal gas boilers to me; they are readily available
from most manufactureres. The difference between a system boiler and a
regular boiler is that the system boiler will have a pump and
expansion vessel in the case while with a regular boiler they are
external. Can't see that a system boiler will have more sophisticated
controls than an equivalent regular boiler.

I've recently replaced our regular boiler with a Viessman which has
the option of weather compensation and an opentherm interface, IOW the
regukar boiler has controls which are just as clever as they would be
in a system boiler. The programmer can be as sophisticated as you
like. As it was a drop in replacement there was no value in replacing
it with a system boiler. Did consider a combi for about 2 seconds,
but as it would involve considerable plumbing upheaval, probably
couldn't provide the hot water supply rate (2 baths at 30l/mnute
each), and I've never come across a good combi system it wasn't an
option.

On Wednesday, 1 January 2020 10:29:44 UTC, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
tabbypurr posted
On Tuesday, 31 December 2019 15:33:35 UTC, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
John Rumm posted
If its something to do with the setup of the wet bits, this might not
be something you can fix with a settings change. An old non modulating
boiler may perform better in circumstances like those described, since
it will run flat out until the stat turns it off or it cycles on the
its internal upper limit stat.

And cannot the Vaillant be configured to do this? If not, why not? As it
is, it's not much use to people like me, whose houses get cold and who
need them heated up quickly in the early morning.

Vaillant 4 series have a compulsory timeout after every burn during
which it refuses to fire up. Replace an old boiler that ran flat out &
cycled a lot and those timeouts can cause an issue.

So does the 6 series, though nominally the timeout can be adjusted by
changing one of the d-registers. Whether it actually does anything or
not I don't know; changing the partial load d-register didn't make any
difference.

On the 4 it's adjustable but not to zero. If the plumbing is sluggish that caan be a problem.

On Wednesday, 1 January 2020 19:03:36 UTC, Ray wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ray wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ray wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
A gas air heater for the entire house is much simpler again.

Takes up a lot of room to make a decent quiet one.

No it doesn't. Normally quite tall and not very wide or deep.

You only have the one room, then?

Works fine for the whole house.

Then it has trunking of some sort.

Yes.

That takes up more space than pipes.

Yes, but that isnt space where the people
are, its under the floor or in the roof space
where even your tiny houses have plenty
of unused space. And the total system is
much more reliable than a water based
system and much easier to fix with much
less to fix if anything does go wrong.

You can't run it in the loft space or there would be condensation & mould
If you run it underfloor that is either above or below the insulation.
Below means excess heat loss, which fails to meet BR. Above means a good bit of complication & extra material.


Not saying you couldn't make a neat job in a new build.
But for most a wet system is going to be far neater.

Thats bull****. No stupid radiators in all rooms,
at most an air register which is vastly neater.

The lack of rads is the big upside. I found the noise a real problem during conversations, it wasn't loud but still enough to disrupt audibility.


NT

On 31/12/2019 22:13, wrote:
On Tuesday, 31 December 2019 14:51:30 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 31/12/2019 02:25, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 29 December 2019 16:48:17 UTC, The Marquis Saint Evremonde
wrote:
John Rumm posted
On 28/12/2019 17:16, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
T i m posted

Talking to a heating engineer the other day he didn't seem to
be too impressed with Vaillant.
Nor am I. We had one installed a few months ago and it is
bloody awful. The software appears to be rigged to make the
thing heat the place up as slowly as possible, and no amount
of fiddling with the settings will remedy it.

In which case, it sounds like the installer has not set it up
correctly. There is no reason it should take any longer to heat
the place than any other boiler of comparable power.

Only that the design makes it do so, apparently regardless of any
of the d-register settings. A bit of googling shows that this is a
very common complaint about Ecotec 600 series models.

Surely if it won't run at its manufacturer described power it's
either faulty or not as described.

There are external factors that can cause boilers to do such things
of course, but since your primary cct is running at such a low temp,
poor flow does not appear to be the cause.

Too much bypass flow would do it - the boiler would modulate right down
to try and not exceed the set point flow temperature.

IIRC the water was returning to the boiler way below temp.
I know the Vaillant 4 series can be set to limit P_out to any velue in its range, I presume the 6 series can too.

Yup you can limit max power out, and the modulation range is quite broad
as well.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 31/12/2019 15:28, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
John Rumm posted
On 29/12/2019 20:49, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
Â*It does make it Vaillant's fault, though. My previous boiler
(PottertonÂ* Kingfisher, basic analogue controls, no software) worked
straight out ofÂ* the box. Heated the place - six-bedroom Victorian
detached house - inÂ* minutes.

Was the Potterton a modulating boiler? (i.e. could it vary its burner
output power, or did it always run at max output)

It ran at the output level set by the manual dial (which I assume was a
potentiometer connected to a thermometer or thermistor).

However without far more information on the actual installation and
the controls in use, probably not much else can be said at this point.
Â*I have 14 rads all on the same circuit, controlled by a single
on/offÂ* room thermostat. Separate 2-way valves for CH and HW. Towel
radÂ* connected to the bypass circuit. Completely standard.

How is this towel rail bypass configured?

For example, if the bypass was opening too soon / easily, then the
boiler would see the return temperature ramping up quickly to approach
the flow temperature. This would cause it to reduce boiler output
power to try and match the actual load - which because of the high
return temp would look very small.

I don't want it to do that.

If you have established that is what is happening, then you would need
to fix the system balancing to make it work correctly.

You can also get a similar effect on a system that is well out of
balance such that the bulk of the flow passes through one or two rads,
and hence the boiler will again see a rapid rise in return
temperature, which it will interpret as the house being up to
temperature, and so back off the power.

I don't see what any of that has to do with it. If I set the flow
temperature setpoint to be 65degC, then that's what I want the boiler to
heat it to, as quickly as possible.

If it can reach the flow temp quickly and easily, you won't be dumping
much heat into the system - since it will spend lots of time cycled off.

What's the point of having a flow
temp control if the boiler then says to itself, Oh surely he doesn't
really mean that, I'll do what I prefer to do and he can lump it?

You mean one that does what you tell it to do rather than one that does
what you want it to do?

I will grant you this: when the flow temp has reached a few degrees
short of its setpoint, *then* the boiler can reasonably look at the
return temperature and modulate itself down a bit to prevent overshoot.
But meantime its business is to do what the room thermostat is telling
it to do - warm the place up as fast as it can.

If you are running a fixed flow temp, that it will at best only warm it
as fast as the setting allows. With more sophisticated controls then it
could indeed take into account things like the magnitude of the error
between demand temp and actual temp and set higher flow temps.

Instead, it sits there with the burner modulated right down to the
lowest level, pumping out tepid water at 35-40degC. No wonder the return
temp is close to the actual flow temp; at those working temperatures
it's hardly going to lose much heat to the house is it?

I've already tried most of the advice available on the Web re
adjustingÂ* d-registers. It didn't work.

If its something to do with the setup of the wet bits, this might not
be something you can fix with a settings change. An old non modulating
boiler may perform better in circumstances like those described, since
it will run flat out until the stat turns it off or it cycles on the
its internal upper limit stat.

And cannot the Vaillant be configured to do this? If not, why not? As it
is, it's not much use to people like me, whose houses get cold and who
need them heated up quickly in the early morning.

I think in the circumstances I would go to the effort of balancing the
rads properly, and dispense with (or close off) the bypass circuit
altogether (Vaillant boilers have an internal bypass). Then see if you
get proper operation.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/