In article ,
Alan wrote:
Have you seen how much storage heaters are now?

Can anyone explain why they are so expensive?

--
*Taxation WITH representation ain't much fun, either.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 15/09/2019 12:11, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 01:11:06 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sunday, 15 September 2019 08:50:52 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
And, you will also likely have to give them a peak electric supply as
well as the off-peak. Modern ones use 2 supplies to control them.
I don't know what this would mean in terms of work and cost.

Not that much if there is a nearby 13 amp socket which can be spurred from, and the flat electrics are up to some heating load on the socket circuits. I think the largest Quantum is 2kW load so you can get a couple on a 30A ring okay.

You may be able to get pre-LOT20 secondhand storage heaters cheaply if you can collect from nearby ebay/gumtree sellers.

Depends on how the metering is arranged - it's possible the supplier has turned off the E7 function on the meter and it's now supplying all circuits 24 hours at the same rate. A photo of the intake/meter/consumer units may provide further insight.

Owain

Thanks for all the info Owain.
Here's what I've managed to glean so far, including a bill from the
electrician.

https://postimg.cc/gallery/mp6g689a/


There are two separate 30amp fuses/mcbs for sockets.

How big is this flat ?.

On 15/09/2019 12:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/09/2019 11:19, Andrew wrote:
On 15/09/2019 10:54, ARW wrote:
On 15/09/2019 10:29, Andrew wrote:
On 15/09/2019 09:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Air source heatpump might be a better bet

But not in a flat, even below the 4th floor.

Do flats not have air around them?


Yes, but they tend to be leasehold and getting the freeholders
permission for something that might cause a nuisance to the
other flat owners is not easy.


The tone of your original post suggested they would not work, not that
they might not be allowed

No it didn't. That's your false interpretation.

On 15/09/2019 12:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Alan wrote:
Have you seen how much storage heaters are now?

Can anyone explain why they are so expensive?


Because they no longer use bricks but energy cells?

--
Adam

On 15/09/2019 11:45, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 11:11:10 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 08:09:52 +0100, Mike Halmarack wrote:

"EasyHome Panel Heaters Model Number PH-ET07H"
https://www.aldi.co.uk/easy-home-wal...81567188621900

425 W !!! You sat on the sofa watching telly are likely to be pushing
out more heat!

How many are there?
Is the flat warm enough for you?
Have been in it for a winter yet?

ATM I can't quite understand why this was done.

Previous owner hadn't a clue and fell for the "economical" and "low
running costs" sales points. Both true as such, the things takes
bugger all power so is going to be "economical" and have "low running
costs" at the expense of not having a warm place to live.

The flat still has the Economy 7, 2 rate meters
I don't know if this metering system is still operating in any valid
sense.

Need to sort out how things are now connected up and look at what
your bills say regarding tarrif. The supply wiring for the storeage
heaters would almost certainly have been individual circuits from a
seperate consumer unit. The supply to which would have been switched
on/off under control of the time switch that also controlled which
register the meter used to record consumption.

I also don't know if the flat's night storage circuitry has been
replaced or just utilized to supply these new heating panels.

It may have been re-wired to a permenant supply. Or not depending on
how stupid the person doing the chnage of heaters was.

Either way I'm hoping that I can reverse the process and get the night
storage system back without to much disruption and cost.

Should be possible. Modern "high heat retention" storeage heaters are
much better than the old, barely insulated, pile of bricks. But they
don't come cheap and need a second, permenant, supply.

This second supply could be from a nearby ring via switched
connection unit provided that any given ring doesn't have more than a
couple of heaters on it. This supply not only keeps the electroncs
powered but is also used for "boost" heating if required.

ARW has suggested a workaround with the existing heater supplies
wired to permenant mains and suitable, individual, timeswitches
fitted at each heater to "fake" the E7 period switched supply.
That'll work but you need to make sure that the timeswitches and
tarrif clock are set for the same "on" period and don't drift for any
reason (clock accuracy, power cuts...).

Wonder if there are any "one to many" remote mains switches of
suitable switching capacity available? Preferably using the mains
wiring for signalling. X10?

Wow Dave, that looks a lot of useful info.
It'll take me a while to work my way through it. Big thanks.


If money was no object, I would gut the whole place and dryline
it with a couple of inches of 'celotex' and new plasterboard,
then you would be able to be reasonably comfortable with E7 heating.

If leccy costs carry on upwards, you will get all the money back
10-20 years down the line ...

On 15/09/2019 12:38, ARW wrote:
On 15/09/2019 12:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Alan wrote:
Have you seen how much storage heaters are now?

Can anyone explain why they are so expensive?


Because they no longer use bricks but energy cells?


Do you mean .... batteries ?

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 12:32:46 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 15/09/2019 12:11, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 01:11:06 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sunday, 15 September 2019 08:50:52 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
And, you will also likely have to give them a peak electric supply as
well as the off-peak. Modern ones use 2 supplies to control them.
I don't know what this would mean in terms of work and cost.

Not that much if there is a nearby 13 amp socket which can be spurred from, and the flat electrics are up to some heating load on the socket circuits. I think the largest Quantum is 2kW load so you can get a couple on a 30A ring okay.

You may be able to get pre-LOT20 secondhand storage heaters cheaply if you can collect from nearby ebay/gumtree sellers.

Depends on how the metering is arranged - it's possible the supplier has turned off the E7 function on the meter and it's now supplying all circuits 24 hours at the same rate. A photo of the intake/meter/consumer units may provide further insight.

Owain

Thanks for all the info Owain.
Here's what I've managed to glean so far, including a bill from the
electrician.

https://postimg.cc/gallery/mp6g689a/


There are two separate 30amp fuses/mcbs for sockets.

How big is this flat ?.

2 bedrooms, large lounge, kitchen, bathroom, entrance lobby.
--

Mike

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 12:42:51 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 15/09/2019 11:45, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 11:11:10 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 08:09:52 +0100, Mike Halmarack wrote:

"EasyHome Panel Heaters Model Number PH-ET07H"
https://www.aldi.co.uk/easy-home-wal...81567188621900

425 W !!! You sat on the sofa watching telly are likely to be pushing
out more heat!

How many are there?
Is the flat warm enough for you?
Have been in it for a winter yet?

ATM I can't quite understand why this was done.

Previous owner hadn't a clue and fell for the "economical" and "low
running costs" sales points. Both true as such, the things takes
bugger all power so is going to be "economical" and have "low running
costs" at the expense of not having a warm place to live.

The flat still has the Economy 7, 2 rate meters
I don't know if this metering system is still operating in any valid
sense.

Need to sort out how things are now connected up and look at what
your bills say regarding tarrif. The supply wiring for the storeage
heaters would almost certainly have been individual circuits from a
seperate consumer unit. The supply to which would have been switched
on/off under control of the time switch that also controlled which
register the meter used to record consumption.

I also don't know if the flat's night storage circuitry has been
replaced or just utilized to supply these new heating panels.

It may have been re-wired to a permenant supply. Or not depending on
how stupid the person doing the chnage of heaters was.

Either way I'm hoping that I can reverse the process and get the night
storage system back without to much disruption and cost.

Should be possible. Modern "high heat retention" storeage heaters are
much better than the old, barely insulated, pile of bricks. But they
don't come cheap and need a second, permenant, supply.

This second supply could be from a nearby ring via switched
connection unit provided that any given ring doesn't have more than a
couple of heaters on it. This supply not only keeps the electroncs
powered but is also used for "boost" heating if required.

ARW has suggested a workaround with the existing heater supplies
wired to permenant mains and suitable, individual, timeswitches
fitted at each heater to "fake" the E7 period switched supply.
That'll work but you need to make sure that the timeswitches and
tarrif clock are set for the same "on" period and don't drift for any
reason (clock accuracy, power cuts...).

Wonder if there are any "one to many" remote mains switches of
suitable switching capacity available? Preferably using the mains
wiring for signalling. X10?

Wow Dave, that looks a lot of useful info.
It'll take me a while to work my way through it. Big thanks.


If money was no object, I would gut the whole place and dryline
it with a couple of inches of 'celotex' and new plasterboard,
then you would be able to be reasonably comfortable with E7 heating.

If leccy costs carry on upwards, you will get all the money back
10-20 years down the line ...

That'll come in handy for bribing Heaven's gatekeeper.
--

Mike

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 15/09/2019 12:42, Andrew wrote:
On 15/09/2019 11:45, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 11:11:10 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 08:09:52 +0100, Mike Halmarack wrote:

"EasyHome Panel Heaters Model Number PH-ET07H"
https://www.aldi.co.uk/easy-home-wal...81567188621900

425 W !!! You sat on the sofa watching telly are likely to be pushing
out more heat!

How many are there?
Is the flat warm enough for you?
Have been in it for a winter yet?

ATM I can't quite understand why this was done.

Previous owner hadn't a clue and fell for the "economical" and "low
running costs" sales points. Both true as such, the things takes
bugger all power so is going to be "economical" and have "low running
costs" at the expense of not having a warm place to live.

The flat still has the Economy 7, 2 rate meters
I don't know if this metering system is stillÂ* operating in any valid
sense.

Need to sort out how things are now connected up and look at what
your bills say regarding tarrif. The supply wiring for the storeage
heaters would almost certainly have been individual circuits from a
seperate consumer unit. The supply to which would have been switched
on/off under control of the time switch that also controlled which
register the meter used to record consumption.

I also don't know if the flat's night storage circuitry has been
replaced or just utilized to supply these new heating panels.

It may have been re-wired to a permenant supply. Or not depending on
how stupid the person doing the chnage of heaters was.

Either way I'm hoping that I can reverse the process and get the night
storage system back without to much disruption and cost.

Should be possible. Modern "high heat retention" storeage heaters are
much better than the old, barely insulated, pile of bricks. But they
don't come cheap and need a second, permenant, supply.

This second supply could be from a nearby ring via switched
connection unit provided that any given ring doesn't have more than a
couple of heaters on it. This supply not only keeps the electroncs
powered but is also used for "boost" heating if required.

ARW has suggested a workaround with the existing heater supplies
wired to permenant mains and suitable, individual, timeswitches
fitted at each heater to "fake" the E7 period switched supply.
That'll work but you need to make sure that the timeswitches and
tarrif clock are set for the same "on" period and don't drift for any
reason (clock accuracy, power cuts...).

Wonder if there are any "one to many" remote mains switches of
suitable switching capacity available? Preferably using the mains
wiring for signalling. X10?

Wow Dave, that looks a lot of useful info.
It'll take me a while to work my way through it. Big thanks.


If money was no object, I would gut the whole place and dryline
it with a couple of inches of 'celotex' and new plasterboard,
then you would be able to be reasonably comfortable with E7 heating.

If leccy costs carry on upwards, you will get all the money back
10-20 years down the line ...


Why would you want to get your money back if money was no object?

--
Adam

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 11:36:34 +0100, ARW wrote:

425 W !!! You sat on the sofa watching telly are likely to be
pushing
out more heat!

And a bit of thread drift...

http://www.c60design.co.uk/many-cats...passive-house/

B-) Love it.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
ARW wrote:
On 15/09/2019 12:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Alan wrote:
Have you seen how much storage heaters are now?

Can anyone explain why they are so expensive?


Because they no longer use bricks but energy cells?

Really? You live and learn. Pretty cheap, then. ;-)

--
*I don't work here. I'm a consultant

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 15/09/2019 11:11, Dave Liquorice wrote:
snip
Previous owner hadn't a clue and fell for the "economical" and "low
running costs" sales points. Both true as such, the things takes
bugger all power so is going to be "economical" and have "low running
costs" at the expense of not having a warm place to live.


The websites of sellers lauding panels over night storage are not within
the ambit of the Advertising Standards Authority; and it shows.



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 15/09/2019 13:03, ARW wrote:
On 15/09/2019 12:42, Andrew wrote:
On 15/09/2019 11:45, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 11:11:10 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 08:09:52 +0100, Mike Halmarack wrote:

"EasyHome Panel Heaters Model Number PH-ET07H"
https://www.aldi.co.uk/easy-home-wal...81567188621900

425 W !!! You sat on the sofa watching telly are likely to be pushing
out more heat!

How many are there?
Is the flat warm enough for you?
Have been in it for a winter yet?

ATM I can't quite understand why this was done.

Previous owner hadn't a clue and fell for the "economical" and "low
running costs" sales points. Both true as such, the things takes
bugger all power so is going to be "economical" and have "low running
costs" at the expense of not having a warm place to live.

The flat still has the Economy 7, 2 rate meters
I don't know if this metering system is stillÂ* operating in any valid
sense.

Need to sort out how things are now connected up and look at what
your bills say regarding tarrif. The supply wiring for the storeage
heaters would almost certainly have been individual circuits from a
seperate consumer unit. The supply to which would have been switched
on/off under control of the time switch that also controlled which
register the meter used to record consumption.

I also don't know if the flat's night storage circuitry has been
replaced or just utilized to supply these new heating panels.

It may have been re-wired to a permenant supply. Or not depending on
how stupid the person doing the chnage of heaters was.

Either way I'm hoping that I can reverse the process and get the night
storage system back without to much disruption and cost.

Should be possible. Modern "high heat retention" storeage heaters are
much better than the old, barely insulated, pile of bricks. But they
don't come cheap and need a second, permenant, supply.

This second supply could be from a nearby ring via switched
connection unit provided that any given ring doesn't have more than a
couple of heaters on it. This supply not only keeps the electroncs
powered but is also used for "boost" heating if required.

ARW has suggested a workaround with the existing heater supplies
wired to permenant mains and suitable, individual, timeswitches
fitted at each heater to "fake" the E7 period switched supply.
That'll work but you need to make sure that the timeswitches and
tarrif clock are set for the same "on" period and don't drift for any
reason (clock accuracy, power cuts...).

Wonder if there are any "one to many" remote mains switches of
suitable switching capacity available? Preferably using the mains
wiring for signalling. X10?

Wow Dave, that looks a lot of useful info.
It'll take me a while to work my way through it. Big thanks.


If money was no object, I would gut the whole place and dryline
it with a couple of inches of 'celotex' and new plasterboard,
then you would be able to be reasonably comfortable with E7 heating.

If leccy costs carry on upwards, you will get all the money back
10-20 years down the line ...


Why would you want to get your money back if money was no object?


It's an added bonus, but it always strikes me as odd while
watching homes under the hammer etc, and people go to the
extent of stripping properties back to bare brick and
replaster/dryline and don't seem to bother with insulation
(even though Part L 2006 says you must, or has this
changed ?).

People are more interested in having a solid gold bog than
keeping their energy bills down.

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 12:42:51 +0100, Andrew wrote:

If money was no object, I would gut the whole place and dryline
it with a couple of inches of 'celotex' and new plasterboard,
then you would be able to be reasonably comfortable with E7 heating.

That well insulated, the "waste" heat from the occupants and
appliances is going to be significant. The small low power panel
heaters may well be enough to "top up" the warmth occasionally during
the winter. Also with that level of insulation the place will warm up
relatively quickly meaning that manual "on demand" heating system
doesn't mean you wait hours for the place to warm up even from quite
cool.

This maybe something else that the OP needs to consider. Were the
people who did the change to panel heaters not as daft as has has
been assumed? Perhaps the place *is* well inulated and thus the panel
heaters are suffcient...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 15/09/2019 13:10, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 11:36:34 +0100, ARW wrote:

425 W !!! You sat on the sofa watching telly are likely to be
pushing
out more heat!

And a bit of thread drift...

http://www.c60design.co.uk/many-cats...passive-house/

B-) Love it.


Does the colour of the cat affect its heat emissions ?.

Are lazy cats worse than active cats ?.

How much does heat does a human being emit ?.

Come to think of it multiply that figure by 7 Billion and
blame them all for global warming :-)

On Sunday, 15 September 2019 12:11:44 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
https://postimg.cc/gallery/mp6g689a/

Okay. As far as I can see:

From left to right:

1. Timeswitch: Unmetered live and neutral. Green earth. Switched neutral to rate cange terminal on meter.

2. Meter: Live and Neutral supply in from Henleys 3 and 4. Neutral and Live out to Henleys 2 and 1. Rate change Neutral to Timeswitch.

3. (White) Presumably heating CU with 3 heaters.

4. (Grey) Presumably main fuseboard with sockets, cooker, imm heater and lights. Below@ clock connector for doorbell transformer.

At bottom:

From right to left: incoming supply. Henley blocks (unmetered) to meter and timeswitch. Henley blocks (metered) from meter to 2 x fuseboards.

The easiest way of rewiring this for E7 or E10 is to replace the meter (so you might want to look at a smart meter tariff) which will have both 24-hour and off-peak-switched live outputs. Use a 4-pole Wylex type isolator from the meter and take the 2 lives to the 24-hour and off-peak fuseboards respectively. Use 1 Henley block to split the neutrals to the 2 fuseboards. The right-hand two Henleys remain as they terminate the incoming supply (badly - the Building Network Operator should really change this to a service cutout).

Carefull rearrangement might allow enough space for a dual tariff consumer unit where the existing timeswitch/meter/off-peak CU are, and put the new meter where the grey CU is. Otherwise you look a bit cramped for height for a new CU unless there is space above that board.

Using the existing boards you really need a contactor working from the timeswitch unmetered switched live (which is not wired up at the moment) and neutral to the contactor coil, then connect the contactor switch from Henley 1 (metered live) to Heating CU supply.

The contactor coil terminals which are from the unmetered supply should be sealed by the supplier to prevent abstraction.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:Halmarack.png

Owain

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 10:29:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The problem with night storage heaters is they dont.
Store. Or heat.

Old style ones did store heat and a fair bit of it, up to around 20
kWhrs (3kW for 7 hours...). The big problem is that they where crap
at retaining that heat and lagged behind reality. Warm spell and the
uncontrolled heat leakage made the place too hot, cold snap and they
ran out of heat mid-afternoon.

How ever poor their storage is, it is infinitatley better
than the replacement panel rads.

But those can at least be fired up in the daytime
And evenings

Modern "high retention" storeage heaters don't leak anything like the
heat old style ones do and have far better controls on heat output.
They also have a permenant supply to provide "boost" heating outside
the cheap off peak period.

Has anyone here got modern high retention storage heaters? When fully
charged how hot is the outer casing? Our old ones are too hot to
touch, which shows how much heat they are leaking...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 15/09/2019 13:10, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 11:36:34 +0100, ARW wrote:

425 W !!! You sat on the sofa watching telly are likely to be
pushing
out more heat!

And a bit of thread drift...

http://www.c60design.co.uk/many-cats...passive-house/

B-) Love it.


Excellent as far as it goes. But doesn't even mention the possibility
of using the cat's waste (and the naturally inevitable, occasional waste
cat) in a biodigester



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Sunday, 15 September 2019 13:46:15 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
Excellent as far as it goes. But doesn't even mention the possibility
of using the cat's waste (and the naturally inevitable, occasional waste
cat) in a biodigester

17 queens and one tom could produce approaching 300 kittens a year.

If you get pedigree Maine Coon or similar they fetch about £1000 a kitten.

Even moggies, if you can get £6.60 per kitten, you break even and get the heating effect for free.

Owain

On 15/09/2019 13:23, wrote:

The easiest way of rewiring this for E7 or E10 is to replace the meter (so you might want to look at a smart meter tariff) which will have both 24-hour and off-peak-switched live outputs. Use a 4-pole Wylex type isolator from the meter and take the 2 lives to the 24-hour and off-peak fuseboards respectively. Use 1 Henley block to split the neutrals to the 2 fuseboards. The right-hand two Henleys remain as they terminate the incoming supply (badly - the Building Network Operator should really change this to a service cutout).


Probably an idiot-boy question: why would the meter need to be replaced
for E7 or E10 when it is labelled "Multi Rate Single Phase Watt Meter"?
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 05:23:57 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The easiest way of rewiring this for E7 or E10 is to replace the meter
so you might want to look at a smart meter tariff) which will have both
24-hour and off-peak-switched live outputs.

No the easiest way is to feed the CU for the heaters via the main
(switched) contacts of the time switch.

The OP also needs to look at his electricity bill to see if he is
still on an E7 tarrif. Hopefully he is(*) and essentially all that is
required is the above wiring change at the board and installation of
new storeage heaters. New high heat retention heaters will need a
permenant supply but with two rings and three heaters that should be
possible to derive from the rings. I suspect one ring is kitchen and
the other rest of flat. Put one heater on the "kitchen" ring, the
other two on the "rest of flat" one.

(*) All consumption during the off peak period, that the meter still
"knows about" from the time switch, will be at the lower price.
Without the large heating load this isn't likely top be economic,
broadly you need to use 2/3 of your total consumption during the off
peak period to break even on E7.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 13:57:34 +0100, Robin wrote:

The easiest way of rewiring this for E7 or E10 is to replace the
meter
(so you might want to look at a smart meter tariff)

Probably an idiot-boy question: why would the meter need to be replaced
for E7 or E10 when it is labelled "Multi Rate Single Phase Watt Meter"?

Smart meter fanboy?

Or doesn't realise the time switch has a "Main circuit 100(12) A"
switching capabilty as per it's rating plate. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sunday, 15 September 2019 13:57:36 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
Probably an idiot-boy question: why would the meter need to be replaced
for E7 or E10 when it is labelled "Multi Rate Single Phase Watt Meter"?

A very sensible question.

The existing meter needs an external timeswitch or teleswitch to (a) change the meter from rate 1 to rate 2; and (b) to connect the heating load only at off-peak times. It only has L and N supply, and single L and N for load.

More modern meters include their own timeswitch or radioteleswitch (or smart meter equivalent) and have separate Live outputs for 24-hour *and* off-peak, so there is no need for any timeswitch or contactor to control the heating load, and the heating load switching cannot get out of synch with the meter rate changing.

This is also a bona fide application of smart metering - the heating load charging periods can be moved to accommodate varying demand on the grid.

It also makes for a much neater installation with usually only 1 henley block needed to split the neutral (and not even that if a dual tariff board is fitted)

Owain

On 15/09/2019 14:11, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 13:57:34 +0100, Robin wrote:

The easiest way of rewiring this for E7 or E10 is to replace the
meter
(so you might want to look at a smart meter tariff)

Probably an idiot-boy question: why would the meter need to be replaced
for E7 or E10 when it is labelled "Multi Rate Single Phase Watt Meter"?

Smart meter fanboy?

Or doesn't realise the time switch has a "Main circuit 100(12) A"
switching capabilty as per it's rating plate. B-)


And quite fat cables going in and out of it :-)

On Sunday, 15 September 2019 14:04:03 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
The easiest way of rewiring this for E7 or E10 is to replace the meter
No the easiest way is to feed the CU for the heaters via the main
(switched) contacts of the time switch.

But that timeswitch is used for the supplier's rate change and is connected to the *unmetered* supply. The consumer does not bear the cost of running the timeswitch motor. The consumer must use either his own timeswitch, or a contactor.

Owain

On 15/09/2019 13:17, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 12:42:51 +0100, Andrew wrote:

If money was no object, I would gut the whole place and dryline
it with a couple of inches of 'celotex' and new plasterboard,
then you would be able to be reasonably comfortable with E7 heating.

That well insulated, the "waste" heat from the occupants and
appliances is going to be significant. The small low power panel
heaters may well be enough to "top up" the warmth occasionally during
the winter. Also with that level of insulation the place will warm up
relatively quickly meaning that manual "on demand" heating system
doesn't mean you wait hours for the place to warm up even from quite
cool.

This maybe something else that the OP needs to consider. Were the
people who did the change to panel heaters not as daft as has has
been assumed? Perhaps the place *is* well inulated and thus the panel
heaters are suffcient...


The flat will have had an EPC report on it before the OP bought it.

However I still cannot see a couple of 450W panel heaters would be up to
the job.

--
Adam

On 15/09/2019 13:10, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 11:36:34 +0100, ARW wrote:

425 W !!! You sat on the sofa watching telly are likely to be
pushing
out more heat!

And a bit of thread drift...

http://www.c60design.co.uk/many-cats...passive-house/

B-) Love it.




The average weight of a cat is given as 3kg in that link.

When I took my cat to the vets last month after a night out fighting
(the cat not me) he weighed in at 7.1kg.

So maybe you only need half the cats?




--
Adam

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 05:23:57 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sunday, 15 September 2019 12:11:44 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
https://postimg.cc/gallery/mp6g689a/

Okay. As far as I can see:

From left to right:

1. Timeswitch: Unmetered live and neutral. Green earth. Switched neutral to rate cange terminal on meter.

2. Meter: Live and Neutral supply in from Henleys 3 and 4. Neutral and Live out to Henleys 2 and 1. Rate change Neutral to Timeswitch.

3. (White) Presumably heating CU with 3 heaters.

4. (Grey) Presumably main fuseboard with sockets, cooker, imm heater and lights. Below@ clock connector for doorbell transformer.

At bottom:

From right to left: incoming supply. Henley blocks (unmetered) to meter and timeswitch. Henley blocks (metered) from meter to 2 x fuseboards.

The easiest way of rewiring this for E7 or E10 is to replace the meter (so you might want to look at a smart meter tariff) which will have both 24-hour and off-peak-switched live outputs. Use a 4-pole Wylex type isolator from the meter and take the 2 lives to the 24-hour and off-peak fuseboards respectively. Use 1 Henley block to split the neutrals to the 2 fuseboards. The right-hand two Henleys remain as they terminate the incoming supply (badly - the Building Network Operator should really change this to a service cutout).

Carefull rearrangement might allow enough space for a dual tariff consumer unit where the existing timeswitch/meter/off-peak CU are, and put the new meter where the grey CU is. Otherwise you look a bit cramped for height for a new CU unless there is space above that board.

Using the existing boards you really need a contactor working from the timeswitch unmetered switched live (which is not wired up at the moment) and neutral to the contactor coil, then connect the contactor switch from Henley 1 (metered live) to Heating CU supply.

The contactor coil terminals which are from the unmetered supply should be sealed by the supplier to prevent abstraction.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:Halmarack.png

Owain

Wonderful stuff Owain but I'm sweating cobs just trying to understand
it, let alone do it. That will have to be the job of someone much more
electrical.
--

Mike

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 10:29:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The problem with night storage heaters is they dont.
Store. Or heat.

Old style ones did store heat and a fair bit of it, up to around 20
kWhrs (3kW for 7 hours...). The big problem is that they where crap

Where?

--
Chris Green
·

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 06:20:43 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The easiest way of rewiring this for E7 or E10 is to replace the
meter
No the easiest way is to feed the CU for the heaters via the main
(switched) contacts of the time switch.

But that timeswitch is used for the supplier's rate change and is
connected to the *unmetered* supply. The consumer does not bear the cost
of running the timeswitch motor. The consumer must use either his own
timeswitch, or a contactor.

The main circuit contacts in the time switch are just that, a set of
contacts. There is no connection between them and the supply used to
drive the clock and coil to operate those contacts.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 15/09/2019 08:09, Mike Halmarack wrote:
The previous occupants of my newly acquired electric only flat had the
night storage heaters removed.
They were replaced with these fairly insubstantial panel heaters from
Aldi.
"EasyHome Panel Heaters Model Number PH-ET07H"
https://www.aldi.co.uk/easy-home-wal...81567188621900

ATM I can't quite understand why this was done.
The flat still has the Economy 7, 2 rate meters
I don't know if this metering system is still operating in any valid
sense.

I also don't know if the flat's night storage circuitry has been
replaced or just utilized to supply these new heating panels.

Either way I'm hoping that I can reverse the process and get the night
storage system back without to much disruption and cost.

Any advice on this would be much appreciated.


I would just replace the Aldi panel heaters with higher output plug-in
ones say 2kW. Shouldn't cost more than £100.

On 15/09/2019 14:14, wrote:
On Sunday, 15 September 2019 13:57:36 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
Probably an idiot-boy question: why would the meter need to be replaced
for E7 or E10 when it is labelled "Multi Rate Single Phase Watt Meter"?

A very sensible question.

The existing meter needs an external timeswitch or teleswitch to (a) change the meter from rate 1 to rate 2; and (b) to connect the heating load only at off-peak times. It only has L and N supply, and single L and N for load.

More modern meters include their own timeswitch or radioteleswitch (or smart meter equivalent) and have separate Live outputs for 24-hour *and* off-peak, so there is no need for any timeswitch or contactor to control the heating load, and the heating load switching cannot get out of synch with the meter rate changing.


I asked as I hadn't seen or heard of a supplier fitting Smart Meters
twin outputs, preferring to leave the switching on the consumer's side.
I'd got it into my head (possibly from a rogue dispiration particle*)
they deprecated anything but a single output these days with a view to
tariffs with more than 2 tiers.

*the nasty cousins of inspiration particles that

This is also a bona fide application of smart metering - the heating load charging periods can be moved to accommodate varying demand on the grid.

It also makes for a much neater installation with usually only 1 henley block needed to split the neutral (and not even that if a dual tariff board is fitted)

Owain



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 17:10:00 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:
Old style ones did store heat and a fair bit of it, up to around 20
kWhrs (3kW for 7 hours...). The big problem is that they where crap

Where?

They heat up around 100kg of bricks inside the heater, which are then
wrapped in insulation, with vents to open when the heat is required.
They arent great.
Newer ones are better, better insulation,and a fan is used to get the
heat out.

On Sunday, 15 September 2019 18:03:36 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
The main circuit contacts in the time switch are just that, a set of
contacts. There is no connection between them and the supply used to
drive the clock and coil to operate those contacts.

You may be correct, but in the current installation the contact and the clock share a neutral - there may be an internal link of course.

Owain

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 15/09/2019 10:36, Andrew wrote:
On 15/09/2019 10:33, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 10:15:25 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

Well a look at the meter readings and the bill tariffs would be a good
clue.
Sounds a little bonkers considering the cost of new storage heaters is
not
insignificant, they surely all cannot have been faulty?

Brian

They may have been put in with the original build, which was early to
mid seventies. There were 3 and with any luck there will be 3 again,
since a can't think of a preferable arrangement.


Hope the 'removers' hoovered up any asbestos dust that may
have been disturbed during removal.

I nver found any asbestos in my storage heaters.
Just heavy blocks and a little bit of rockwool

None in mine either., No rockwool either, very unusual
semi rigid very bright white insulation, allegedly the
same stuff used in the space shuttle heat shields etc.
Very light.

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 11:52:46 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The main circuit contacts in the time switch are just that, a set
of
contacts. There is no connection between them and the supply used
to
drive the clock and coil to operate those contacts.

You may be correct, but in the current installation the contact and the
clock share a neutral - there may be an internal link of course.

All there is is a L and N for the clock and coil and a low current
Aux circuit (2 A) output to the meter to tell it which register to
use. None of the main circuit wiring is in place.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 07:05:02 +1000, jeikppkywk, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:


None in mine either.,

Oh, darn! And this thread was Rodent-free, so far! tsk

--
Bod addressing abnormal senile quarreller Rot:
"Do you practice arguing with yourself in an empty room?"
MID:

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 11:52:46 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The main circuit contacts in the time switch are just that, a set
of
contacts. There is no connection between them and the supply used
to
drive the clock and coil to operate those contacts.

You may be correct, but in the current installation the contact and the
clock share a neutral - there may be an internal link of course.

All there is is a L and N for the clock and coil and a low current
Aux circuit (2 A) output to the meter to tell it which register to
use. None of the main circuit wiring is in place.

Is this common for the signalling link between the timeswitch and the
meter to be a neutral alone? On mine it is a single live (they are
already both connected to the incoming neutral.) is it possible that
the link from the timeswitch to the meter should be two wires; or even a
single live inapkpropriately implemented with black wire?

--

Roger Hayter

wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 15 September 2019 13:46:15 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
Excellent as far as it goes. But doesn't even mention the possibility
of using the cat's waste (and the naturally inevitable, occasional waste
cat) in a biodigester

17 queens and one tom could produce approaching 300 kittens a year.

If you get pedigree Maine Coon or similar they fetch about £1000 a kitten.

Even moggies, if you can get £6.60 per kitten, you break even and get the
heating effect for free.

Wouldnt work here. Surplus dogs mostly do get rehomed for free
but the surplus cats have to be killed.

"Tufnell Park" wrote in message
...
On 15/09/2019 08:09, Mike Halmarack wrote:
The previous occupants of my newly acquired electric only flat had the
night storage heaters removed.
They were replaced with these fairly insubstantial panel heaters from
Aldi.
"EasyHome Panel Heaters Model Number PH-ET07H"
https://www.aldi.co.uk/easy-home-wal...81567188621900

ATM I can't quite understand why this was done.
The flat still has the Economy 7, 2 rate meters
I don't know if this metering system is still operating in any valid
sense.

I also don't know if the flat's night storage circuitry has been
replaced or just utilized to supply these new heating panels.

Either way I'm hoping that I can reverse the process and get the night
storage system back without to much disruption and cost.

Any advice on this would be much appreciated.


I would just replace the Aldi panel heaters with higher output plug-in
ones say 2kW. Shouldn't cost more than £100.

Very expensive way to heat a house unless its super insulated
and even that is very expensive with an existing house/flat.

Air sourced heat pumps arent that expensive and much
cheaper to run, about a third of the running cost.