The previous occupants of my newly acquired electric only flat had the
night storage heaters removed.
They were replaced with these fairly insubstantial panel heaters from
Aldi.
"EasyHome Panel Heaters Model Number PH-ET07H"
https://www.aldi.co.uk/easy-home-wal...81567188621900

ATM I can't quite understand why this was done.
The flat still has the Economy 7, 2 rate meters
I don't know if this metering system is still operating in any valid
sense.

I also don't know if the flat's night storage circuitry has been
replaced or just utilized to supply these new heating panels.

Either way I'm hoping that I can reverse the process and get the night
storage system back without to much disruption and cost.

Any advice on this would be much appreciated.
--

Mike

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On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 08:09:52 +0100, Mike Halmarack wrote:

Either way I'm hoping that I can reverse the process and get the night
storage system back without to much disruption and cost.

Any advice on this would be much appreciated.

Have you seen how much storage heaters are now?
And, you will also likely have to give them a peak electric supply as
well as the off-peak. Modern ones use 2 supplies to control them.

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 02:29:42 -0500, Alan wrote:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 08:09:52 +0100, Mike Halmarack wrote:

Either way I'm hoping that I can reverse the process and get the night
storage system back without to much disruption and cost.

Any advice on this would be much appreciated.

Have you seen how much storage heaters are now?

Yes, about 600 quid each, which is quite pricey. I discussed this
regarding energy supplier options on moneysavingexpert and folks there
seemed to think that the cheap (to buy) panels in place now would be
inadequate for the task.

And, you will also likely have to give them a peak electric supply as
well as the off-peak. Modern ones use 2 supplies to control them.

I don't know what this would mean in terms of work and cost.
--

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On Sunday, 15 September 2019 08:50:52 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
And, you will also likely have to give them a peak electric supply as
well as the off-peak. Modern ones use 2 supplies to control them.
I don't know what this would mean in terms of work and cost.

Not that much if there is a nearby 13 amp socket which can be spurred from, and the flat electrics are up to some heating load on the socket circuits. I think the largest Quantum is 2kW load so you can get a couple on a 30A ring okay.

You may be able to get pre-LOT20 secondhand storage heaters cheaply if you can collect from nearby ebay/gumtree sellers.

Depends on how the metering is arranged - it's possible the supplier has turned off the E7 function on the meter and it's now supplying all circuits 24 hours at the same rate. A photo of the intake/meter/consumer units may provide further insight.

Owain

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 01:11:06 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sunday, 15 September 2019 08:50:52 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
And, you will also likely have to give them a peak electric supply as
well as the off-peak. Modern ones use 2 supplies to control them.
I don't know what this would mean in terms of work and cost.

Not that much if there is a nearby 13 amp socket which can be spurred from, and the flat electrics are up to some heating load on the socket circuits. I think the largest Quantum is 2kW load so you can get a couple on a 30A ring okay.

You may be able to get pre-LOT20 secondhand storage heaters cheaply if you can collect from nearby ebay/gumtree sellers.

Depends on how the metering is arranged - it's possible the supplier has turned off the E7 function on the meter and it's now supplying all circuits 24 hours at the same rate. A photo of the intake/meter/consumer units may provide further insight.

Owain

I'll make that the first job after breckie, ta
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On Sunday, 15 September 2019 09:19:27 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
Depends on how the metering is arranged - it's possible the supplier
has turned off the E7 function on the meter and it's now supplying
all circuits 24 hours at the same rate. A photo of the intake/meter/
consumer units may provide further insight.
I'll make that the first job after breckie, ta

Found you on MSE.

Your meter is a two rate meter but the rate changeover is controlled by an external time/teleswitch between terminal 5 (thin wire) and Neutral.

You then have to arrange your own off-peak load switching which might be by the same time/teleswitch used for the rate change, or a separate timeswitch which has to be kept in synch with the rate change switch, or your off-peak load will be charged at peak rates.

It therefore seems likely that an electrician will have rewired the off-peak circuits to an on-peak supply as part of the customer's wiring, rather than this having been achieveed by the supplier setting the off-peak supply to 24 hour.

Owain

On 15/09/2019 09:11, wrote:
On Sunday, 15 September 2019 08:50:52 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
And, you will also likely have to give them a peak electric supply as
well as the off-peak. Modern ones use 2 supplies to control them.
I don't know what this would mean in terms of work and cost.

Not that much if there is a nearby 13 amp socket which can be spurred from, and the flat electrics are up to some heating load on the socket circuits. I think the largest Quantum is 2kW load so you can get a couple on a 30A ring okay.


It also depends what was done with the existing storage heater supplies
and the type of E7.

The last one I did had a separate fuse box (yes fuses) for the storage
heater supplies. I was able to set it up so that instead of the fuse box
been switched on at night it was on all day and I used the existing
storage heater supplies to provide the 24hr supply together with an
immersion heater timer to provide the E7 timing for the storage elements
at night.




--
Adam

I just have an immersion heater on a time switch set for the off peak times
and with an over ride if needed at other times.
Brian

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"ARW" wrote in message
...
On 15/09/2019 09:11, wrote:
On Sunday, 15 September 2019 08:50:52 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
And, you will also likely have to give them a peak electric supply as
well as the off-peak. Modern ones use 2 supplies to control them.
I don't know what this would mean in terms of work and cost.

Not that much if there is a nearby 13 amp socket which can be spurred
from, and the flat electrics are up to some heating load on the socket
circuits. I think the largest Quantum is 2kW load so you can get a couple
on a 30A ring okay.


It also depends what was done with the existing storage heater supplies
and the type of E7.

The last one I did had a separate fuse box (yes fuses) for the storage
heater supplies. I was able to set it up so that instead of the fuse box
been switched on at night it was on all day and I used the existing
storage heater supplies to provide the 24hr supply together with an
immersion heater timer to provide the E7 timing for the storage elements
at night.




--
Adam

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 01:11:06 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sunday, 15 September 2019 08:50:52 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
And, you will also likely have to give them a peak electric supply as
well as the off-peak. Modern ones use 2 supplies to control them.
I don't know what this would mean in terms of work and cost.

Not that much if there is a nearby 13 amp socket which can be spurred from, and the flat electrics are up to some heating load on the socket circuits. I think the largest Quantum is 2kW load so you can get a couple on a 30A ring okay.

You may be able to get pre-LOT20 secondhand storage heaters cheaply if you can collect from nearby ebay/gumtree sellers.

Depends on how the metering is arranged - it's possible the supplier has turned off the E7 function on the meter and it's now supplying all circuits 24 hours at the same rate. A photo of the intake/meter/consumer units may provide further insight.

Owain

Thanks for all the info Owain.
Here's what I've managed to glean so far, including a bill from the
electrician.

https://postimg.cc/gallery/mp6g689a/
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On 15/09/2019 12:11, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 01:11:06 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sunday, 15 September 2019 08:50:52 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
And, you will also likely have to give them a peak electric supply as
well as the off-peak. Modern ones use 2 supplies to control them.
I don't know what this would mean in terms of work and cost.

Not that much if there is a nearby 13 amp socket which can be spurred from, and the flat electrics are up to some heating load on the socket circuits. I think the largest Quantum is 2kW load so you can get a couple on a 30A ring okay.

You may be able to get pre-LOT20 secondhand storage heaters cheaply if you can collect from nearby ebay/gumtree sellers.

Depends on how the metering is arranged - it's possible the supplier has turned off the E7 function on the meter and it's now supplying all circuits 24 hours at the same rate. A photo of the intake/meter/consumer units may provide further insight.

Owain

Thanks for all the info Owain.
Here's what I've managed to glean so far, including a bill from the
electrician.

https://postimg.cc/gallery/mp6g689a/


There are two separate 30amp fuses/mcbs for sockets.

How big is this flat ?.

On Sunday, 15 September 2019 12:11:44 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
https://postimg.cc/gallery/mp6g689a/

Okay. As far as I can see:

From left to right:

1. Timeswitch: Unmetered live and neutral. Green earth. Switched neutral to rate cange terminal on meter.

2. Meter: Live and Neutral supply in from Henleys 3 and 4. Neutral and Live out to Henleys 2 and 1. Rate change Neutral to Timeswitch.

3. (White) Presumably heating CU with 3 heaters.

4. (Grey) Presumably main fuseboard with sockets, cooker, imm heater and lights. Below@ clock connector for doorbell transformer.

At bottom:

From right to left: incoming supply. Henley blocks (unmetered) to meter and timeswitch. Henley blocks (metered) from meter to 2 x fuseboards.

The easiest way of rewiring this for E7 or E10 is to replace the meter (so you might want to look at a smart meter tariff) which will have both 24-hour and off-peak-switched live outputs. Use a 4-pole Wylex type isolator from the meter and take the 2 lives to the 24-hour and off-peak fuseboards respectively. Use 1 Henley block to split the neutrals to the 2 fuseboards. The right-hand two Henleys remain as they terminate the incoming supply (badly - the Building Network Operator should really change this to a service cutout).

Carefull rearrangement might allow enough space for a dual tariff consumer unit where the existing timeswitch/meter/off-peak CU are, and put the new meter where the grey CU is. Otherwise you look a bit cramped for height for a new CU unless there is space above that board.

Using the existing boards you really need a contactor working from the timeswitch unmetered switched live (which is not wired up at the moment) and neutral to the contactor coil, then connect the contactor switch from Henley 1 (metered live) to Heating CU supply.

The contactor coil terminals which are from the unmetered supply should be sealed by the supplier to prevent abstraction.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:Halmarack.png

Owain

Yes well mine don't thank goodness.
Brian

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"Alan" wrote in message
o.uk...
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 08:09:52 +0100, Mike Halmarack wrote:

Either way I'm hoping that I can reverse the process and get the night
storage system back without to much disruption and cost.

Any advice on this would be much appreciated.

Have you seen how much storage heaters are now?
And, you will also likely have to give them a peak electric supply as
well as the off-peak. Modern ones use 2 supplies to control them.

Alan submitted this idea :
Have you seen how much storage heaters are now?
And, you will also likely have to give them a peak electric supply as
well as the off-peak. Modern ones use 2 supplies to control them.

The difference between peak and off-peak charges as gradually reduced
too, so off-peak heating might not produce the saving it once did.

In article ,
Alan wrote:
Have you seen how much storage heaters are now?

Can anyone explain why they are so expensive?

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 15/09/2019 12:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Alan wrote:
Have you seen how much storage heaters are now?

Can anyone explain why they are so expensive?


Because they no longer use bricks but energy cells?

--
Adam

On 15/09/2019 12:38, ARW wrote:
On 15/09/2019 12:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Alan wrote:
Have you seen how much storage heaters are now?

Can anyone explain why they are so expensive?


Because they no longer use bricks but energy cells?


Do you mean .... batteries ?

In article ,
ARW wrote:
On 15/09/2019 12:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Alan wrote:
Have you seen how much storage heaters are now?

Can anyone explain why they are so expensive?


Because they no longer use bricks but energy cells?

Really? You live and learn. Pretty cheap, then. ;-)

--
*I don't work here. I'm a consultant

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 02:29:42 -0500, Alan wrote:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 08:09:52 +0100, Mike Halmarack wrote:

Either way I'm hoping that I can reverse the process and get the night
storage system back without to much disruption and cost.

Any advice on this would be much appreciated.

Have you seen how much storage heaters are now?
And, you will also likely have to give them a peak electric supply as
well as the off-peak. Modern ones use 2 supplies to control them.

Isn't that for the ones that have a separate supplementarty convection
heater included as back up?

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On 15/09/2019 08:09, Mike Halmarack wrote:
The previous occupants of my newly acquired electric only flat had the
night storage heaters removed.
They were replaced with these fairly insubstantial panel heaters from
Aldi.
"EasyHome Panel Heaters Model Number PH-ET07H"
https://www.aldi.co.uk/easy-home-wal...81567188621900

ATM I can't quite understand why this was done.
The flat still has the Economy 7, 2 rate meters
I don't know if this metering system is still operating in any valid
sense.

I also don't know if the flat's night storage circuitry has been
replaced or just utilized to supply these new heating panels.

Either way I'm hoping that I can reverse the process and get the night
storage system back without to much disruption and cost.

Any advice on this would be much appreciated.


The problem with night storage heaters is they dont.
Store. Or heat.

Lovely in the mornings... icy cold by sunset

You need somethong with more thermal capacity than that, but you cant
fit it in the small flats.

Air source heatpump might be a better bet


--
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other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

- John K Galbraith

On 15/09/2019 09:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/09/2019 08:09, Mike Halmarack wrote:


You need somethong with more thermal capacity than that, but you cant
fit it in the small flats.

Air source heatpump might be a better bet


I was going to say that. Especially if it gets hot in the summer, with
one of the "reversible" systems there's a double benefit.

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 09:28:51 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 15/09/2019 09:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/09/2019 08:09, Mike Halmarack wrote:


You need somethong with more thermal capacity than that, but you cant
fit it in the small flats.

Air source heatpump might be a better bet


I was going to say that. Especially if it gets hot in the summer, with
one of the "reversible" systems there's a double benefit.

Not that I doubted Natch in any way but you adding your agreement with
the idea has made it more interesting as a possibility.
--

Mike

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On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 09:11:25 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 15/09/2019 08:09, Mike Halmarack wrote:
The previous occupants of my newly acquired electric only flat had the
night storage heaters removed.
They were replaced with these fairly insubstantial panel heaters from
Aldi.
"EasyHome Panel Heaters Model Number PH-ET07H"
https://www.aldi.co.uk/easy-home-wal...81567188621900

ATM I can't quite understand why this was done.
The flat still has the Economy 7, 2 rate meters
I don't know if this metering system is still operating in any valid
sense.

I also don't know if the flat's night storage circuitry has been
replaced or just utilized to supply these new heating panels.

Either way I'm hoping that I can reverse the process and get the night
storage system back without to much disruption and cost.

Any advice on this would be much appreciated.


The problem with night storage heaters is they dont.
Store. Or heat.

Lovely in the mornings... icy cold by sunset

You need somethong with more thermal capacity than that, but you cant
fit it in the small flats.

Air source heatpump might be a better bet

Ahhh, thank you for bringing back fond memories of Machynlleth.

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On Sunday, 15 September 2019 09:33:28 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
Ahhh, thank you for bringing back fond memories of Machynlleth.

That's my laugh for the day.

Owain

On 15/09/2019 09:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The problem with night storage heaters is they dont.
Store. Or heat.

How ever poor their storage is, it is infinitatley better
than the replacement panel rads.

On 15/09/2019 10:27, Andrew wrote:
On 15/09/2019 09:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The problem with night storage heaters is they dont.
Store. Or heat.

How ever poor their storage is, it is infinitatley better
than the replacement panel rads.

But those can at least be fired up in the daytime
And evenings

--
€œBut what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!€�

Mary Wollstonecraft

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 10:29:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The problem with night storage heaters is they dont.
Store. Or heat.

Old style ones did store heat and a fair bit of it, up to around 20
kWhrs (3kW for 7 hours...). The big problem is that they where crap
at retaining that heat and lagged behind reality. Warm spell and the
uncontrolled heat leakage made the place too hot, cold snap and they
ran out of heat mid-afternoon.

How ever poor their storage is, it is infinitatley better
than the replacement panel rads.

But those can at least be fired up in the daytime
And evenings

Modern "high retention" storeage heaters don't leak anything like the
heat old style ones do and have far better controls on heat output.
They also have a permenant supply to provide "boost" heating outside
the cheap off peak period.

Has anyone here got modern high retention storage heaters? When fully
charged how hot is the outer casing? Our old ones are too hot to
touch, which shows how much heat they are leaking...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 10:29:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The problem with night storage heaters is they dont.
Store. Or heat.

Old style ones did store heat and a fair bit of it, up to around 20
kWhrs (3kW for 7 hours...). The big problem is that they where crap

Where?

--
Chris Green
·

On 15/09/2019 09:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Air source heatpump might be a better bet

But not in a flat, even below the 4th floor.

On 15/09/2019 10:29, Andrew wrote:
On 15/09/2019 09:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Air source heatpump might be a better bet

But not in a flat, even below the 4th floor.

Why?


--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"

On 15/09/2019 10:29, Andrew wrote:
On 15/09/2019 09:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Air source heatpump might be a better bet

But not in a flat, even below the 4th floor.

Do flats not have air around them?

--
Adam

On 15/09/2019 10:54, ARW wrote:
On 15/09/2019 10:29, Andrew wrote:
On 15/09/2019 09:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Air source heatpump might be a better bet

But not in a flat, even below the 4th floor.

Do flats not have air around them?


Yes, but they tend to be leasehold and getting the freeholders
permission for something that might cause a nuisance to the
other flat owners is not easy.

On 15/09/2019 11:19, Andrew wrote:
On 15/09/2019 10:54, ARW wrote:
On 15/09/2019 10:29, Andrew wrote:
On 15/09/2019 09:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Air source heatpump might be a better bet

But not in a flat, even below the 4th floor.

Do flats not have air around them?


Yes, but they tend to be leasehold and getting the freeholders
permission for something that might cause a nuisance to the
other flat owners is not easy.


The tone of your original post suggested they would not work, not that
they might not be allowed




--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

On 15/09/2019 09:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Air source heatpump might be a better bet

Probably not.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 15/09/2019 11:13, alan_m wrote:
On 15/09/2019 09:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Air source heatpump might be a better bet

Probably not.


How extremely informative you are today.
Why not?


--
€œProgress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,€�

€“ Ludwig von Mises

On 15/09/2019 11:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/09/2019 11:13, alan_m wrote:
On 15/09/2019 09:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Air source heatpump might be a better bet

Probably not.


How extremely informative you are today.
Why not?



It's a flat, probably leasehold, so you don't 'own'
the outer wall. The freeholder is responsible for that.

Mike Halmarack wrote:
The previous occupants of my newly acquired electric only flat had the
night storage heaters removed.
They were replaced with these fairly insubstantial panel heaters from
Aldi.
"EasyHome Panel Heaters Model Number PH-ET07H"
https://www.aldi.co.uk/easy-home-wal...81567188621900

ATM I can't quite understand why this was done.
The flat still has the Economy 7, 2 rate meters
I don't know if this metering system is still operating in any valid
sense.

I also don't know if the flat's night storage circuitry has been
replaced or just utilized to supply these new heating panels.

Either way I'm hoping that I can reverse the process and get the night
storage system back without to much disruption and cost.

Any advice on this would be much appreciated.

'Modern' economy 7 systems don't usually use separate wiring, just (as
you seem to have) a meter which switches rates for overnight
consumption.

So there needn't be any explicitly separate wiring for the heaters
(except in that it must ba capable of handling the load). My *guess*
would be that all you need to do is install heaters and get your
electricity supplier to switch you to an Economy 7 type tariff.

--
Chris Green
·

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 09:24:44 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

Mike Halmarack wrote:
The previous occupants of my newly acquired electric only flat had the
night storage heaters removed.
They were replaced with these fairly insubstantial panel heaters from
Aldi.
"EasyHome Panel Heaters Model Number PH-ET07H"
https://www.aldi.co.uk/easy-home-wal...81567188621900

ATM I can't quite understand why this was done.
The flat still has the Economy 7, 2 rate meters
I don't know if this metering system is still operating in any valid
sense.

I also don't know if the flat's night storage circuitry has been
replaced or just utilized to supply these new heating panels.

Either way I'm hoping that I can reverse the process and get the night
storage system back without to much disruption and cost.

Any advice on this would be much appreciated.

'Modern' economy 7 systems don't usually use separate wiring, just (as
you seem to have) a meter which switches rates for overnight
consumption.

So there needn't be any explicitly separate wiring for the heaters
(except in that it must ba capable of handling the load). My *guess*
would be that all you need to do is install heaters and get your
electricity supplier to switch you to an Economy 7 type tariff.

What a cheering and most encouraging idea, thanks.

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Well a look at the meter readings and the bill tariffs would be a good clue.
Sounds a little bonkers considering the cost of new storage heaters is not
insignificant, they surely all cannot have been faulty?

Brian

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"Mike Halmarack" wrote in message
...
The previous occupants of my newly acquired electric only flat had the
night storage heaters removed.
They were replaced with these fairly insubstantial panel heaters from
Aldi.
"EasyHome Panel Heaters Model Number PH-ET07H"
https://www.aldi.co.uk/easy-home-wal...81567188621900

ATM I can't quite understand why this was done.
The flat still has the Economy 7, 2 rate meters
I don't know if this metering system is still operating in any valid
sense.

I also don't know if the flat's night storage circuitry has been
replaced or just utilized to supply these new heating panels.

Either way I'm hoping that I can reverse the process and get the night
storage system back without to much disruption and cost.

Any advice on this would be much appreciated.
--

Mike

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On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 10:15:25 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

Well a look at the meter readings and the bill tariffs would be a good clue.
Sounds a little bonkers considering the cost of new storage heaters is not
insignificant, they surely all cannot have been faulty?

Brian

They may have been put in with the original build, which was early to
mid seventies. There were 3 and with any luck there will be 3 again,
since a can't think of a preferable arrangement.
--

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On 15/09/2019 10:33, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 10:15:25 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

Well a look at the meter readings and the bill tariffs would be a good clue.
Sounds a little bonkers considering the cost of new storage heaters is not
insignificant, they surely all cannot have been faulty?

Brian

They may have been put in with the original build, which was early to
mid seventies. There were 3 and with any luck there will be 3 again,
since a can't think of a preferable arrangement.


Hope the 'removers' hoovered up any asbestos dust that may
have been disturbed during removal.