I secured planning permission for a rear extension to my bungalow, which is
now built. The new back door opens outwards and is clearly shown as such on
the submitted plans.

I haven't yet installed the steps from this back door down to garden/patio
level (and for this reason haven't yet secured a completion certificate) but
I'm now ready to build them.

My understanding (which might of course be wrong) is that descending steps
should not begin immediately outside an outward-opening door: there has to
be a level area of a specific depth first.

But... the plans which have been passed *do* show steps down from the
threshold of the door. Leaving aside the question of whether or not this
is actually sensible or desirable, does the fact that the plans have been
accepted mean that I could build the steps like that if I chose to do so?
Or would Building Control refuse to sign off the work?

Many thanks.

On Friday, 9 August 2019 19:05:01 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
Or would Building Control refuse to sign off the work?

Building Control and Planning Permission are two completely different things in law and the relevant departments often don't talk to each other.

How many steps - if it's a flight they'll probably pick up on it, if it's only a couple of steps to the garden they might not.

Owain

On 09/08/2019 19:05, Bert Coules wrote:
I secured planning permission for a rear extension to my bungalow, which
is now built.Â* The new back door opens outwards and is clearly shown as
such on the submitted plans.

I haven't yet installed the steps from this back door down to
garden/patio level (and for this reason haven't yet secured a completion
certificate) but I'm now ready to build them.

My understanding (which might of course be wrong) is that descending
steps should not begin immediately outside an outward-opening door:
there has to be a level area of a specific depth first.

But...Â* the plans which have been passed *do* show steps down from the
threshold of the door.Â* Leaving aside the question of whether orÂ* not
this is actually sensible or desirable, does the fact that the plans
have been accepted mean that I could build the steps like that if I
chose to do so? Or would Building Control refuse to sign off the work?

Many thanks.


Aren't these two completely separate tests, and you have to pass both?

When we submitted plans for a garage conversion, we submitted them first
to planning. Having obtained that, we submitted the plans to BC, who
approved them, with minor alterations that did not bother the planners.
If you build to plans approved by both, you ought to be in the clear,
even if the plans ought not to have been approved by one or the other.

Owain,

The floors are set unusually high above the basic ground level: the plans
show three steps, with the topmost one being one riser height below the
interior floor. That's to say four risers have to be negotiated to get
inside the house.

GB,

Aren't these two completely separate tests,
and you have to pass both?

That's a good point. My recollection now is that plans were submitted to
both planning and building control; I'll check back through the files and
see if I'm right.

I don't necessarily want to begin the steps directly from the threshold, but
the layout of the garden at that point does make a sizeable level area
tricky to fit.

On 09/08/2019 20:14, Bert Coules wrote:
Owain,

The floors are set unusually high above the basic ground level: the
plans show three steps, with the topmost one being one riser height
below the interior floor.Â*Â* That's to say four risers have to be
negotiated to get inside the house.

The steps from our kitchen into the side passage are like that, although
they are only 3 risers high. It feels quite safe, without a handrail.
With four risers, you may feel much happier with a handrail.



GB,

Aren't these two completely separate tests,
and you have to pass both?

That's a good point.Â* My recollection now is that plans were submitted
to both planning and building control; I'll check back through the files
and see if I'm right.

I don't necessarily want to begin the steps directly from the threshold,
but the layout of the garden at that point does make a sizeable level
area tricky to fit.

Put in a right angle turn?

Bert Coules explained :
The floors are set unusually high above the basic ground level: the plans
show three steps, with the topmost one being one riser height below the
interior floor. That's to say four risers have to be negotiated to get
inside the house.

Would four steps mean going the steps to grab the door handle, pulling
the door open and having to reverse down the steps whilst pulling?
Seems wrong to me.

On 10/08/2019 04:56, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Bert Coules explained :
The floors are set unusually high above the basic ground level: the
plans show three steps, with the topmost one being one riser height
below the interior floor.** That's to say four risers have to be
negotiated to get inside the house.

Would four steps mean going the steps to grab the door handle, pulling
the door open and having to reverse down the steps whilst pulling? Seems
wrong to me.

Most doors open inwards.

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Would four steps mean going the steps to grab the door handle, pulling the
door open and having to reverse down the steps whilst pulling?

Yes, or standing one step down, reaching up to open the door, then making
slightly less of a reverse descent.

Seems wrong to me.

Me too, hence (presumably) the building reg requirement of a sort of outside
landing deep enough to allow the door to be opened while the opener remains
on the same level. Tricky to arrange in my case, though - to the extent
that I'm beginning to wonder about replacing the (uPVC) door with an
inward-opening one.

Unfortunately, the space available for a ninety degree turn is extremely
limited. It might turn out to be necessary to replace the door with an
inward opening one which would permit an immediate flight of steps.

On 10/08/2019 09:52, GB wrote:
On 10/08/2019 04:56, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Bert Coules explained :
The floors are set unusually high above the basic ground level: the
plans show three steps, with the topmost one being one riser height
below the interior floor.** That's to say four risers have to be
negotiated to get inside the house.

Would four steps mean going the steps to grab the door handle, pulling
the door open and having to reverse down the steps whilst pulling?
Seems wrong to me.

Most doors open inwards.

The OP specified back door and IME very many of them open outwards.



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

"GB" wrote in message
...
On 10/08/2019 04:56, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Bert Coules explained :
The floors are set unusually high above the basic ground level: the
plans show three steps, with the topmost one being one riser height
below the interior floor. That's to say four risers have to be
negotiated to get inside the house.

Would four steps mean going the steps to grab the door handle, pulling
the door open and having to reverse down the steps whilst pulling? Seems
wrong to me.

Most doors open inwards.

His doesn't.

On 09/08/2019 19:05, Bert Coules wrote:
I secured planning permission for a rear extension to my bungalow, which
is now built.Â* The new back door opens outwards and is clearly shown as
such on the submitted plans.

I haven't yet installed the steps from this back door down to
garden/patio level (and for this reason haven't yet secured a completion
certificate) but I'm now ready to build them.

My understanding (which might of course be wrong) is that descending
steps should not begin immediately outside an outward-opening door:
there has to be a level area of a specific depth first.

But...Â* the plans which have been passed *do* show steps down from the
threshold of the door.Â* Leaving aside the question of whether orÂ* not
this is actually sensible or desirable, does the fact that the plans
have been accepted mean that I could build the steps like that if I
chose to do so? Or would Building Control refuse to sign off the work?

Many thanks.

Planning is appearance, suitability for the area and proper use.
If you need planning then you can't start to build without satisfying
them. They can have the building demolished if you do build without
permission. Some things don't need permission BTW.


Building control is about structural safety, insulation, etc.
You don't need approval to start but if you don't meet the standards you
may have to rectify it.

In most councils they don't really talk to each other.

Quite often the two can conflict like planning say you have to have a
type of window and building control will say it doesn't comply.

As for the steps you will just have to ask building control, planning
won't care.
Maybe fit a panic bolt to it and call it an escape route?

On Sat, 10 Aug 2019 19:24:53 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

Would four steps mean going the steps to grab the door handle, pulling
the door open and having to reverse down the steps whilst pulling? Seems
wrong to me.

Most doors open inwards.

His doesn't.

That's what the OP clarified after a while, senile asshole!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On 10/08/2019 09:52, GB wrote:
On 10/08/2019 04:56, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Bert Coules explained :
The floors are set unusually high above the basic ground level: the
plans show three steps, with the topmost one being one riser height
below the interior floor.** That's to say four risers have to be
negotiated to get inside the house.

Would four steps mean going the steps to grab the door handle, pulling
the door open and having to reverse down the steps whilst pulling?
Seems wrong to me.

Most doors open inwards.

Only in this country.

"dennis@home" wrote:

Maybe fit a panic bolt to it and call it an escape route?

Ingenious, but I do need it to be a regular back door. And while I could
always remove the panic bolt after the completion certificate had been
issued, I do see the sense of the regulation about having a level space
outside the door. I must check and see if there's a specified depth.

Bert Coules wrote:

"dennis@home" wrote:

Maybe fit a panic bolt to it and call it an escape route?

Ingenious, but I do need it to be a regular back door. And while I could
always remove the panic bolt after the completion certificate had been
issued, I do see the sense of the regulation about having a level space
outside the door. I must check and see if there's a specified depth.

Throughout the Northern provinces of this land in the morning you will
see women cleaning the front steps of their houses leading down to the
pavement, almost never with a landing at the top. What they all have in
common is that the front doors open inwards. Is this not feasible in
your situation, it would make things so much simpler? (I don't know if
building control still want a flat area for an inward opening door,
nothing would surprise me.)


--

Roger Hayter

Roger Hayter wrote:

What they all have in common is that the front doors
open inwards. Is this not feasible in your situation,
it would make things so much simpler?

Thanks for the thought. Yes, as I posted above, I have considered this. It
would be annoying, though, to have to replace a comparatively new door (it
being, sadly, quite impractical simply to
reverse the existing one).

On Saturday, 10 August 2019 12:33:18 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
Thanks for the thought. Yes, as I posted above, I have considered this. It
would be annoying, though, to have to replace a comparatively new door (it
being, sadly, quite impractical simply to
reverse the existing one).

Could you swap it with the front door?

At least until the inspector has gone ...

Owain

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
Bert Coules wrote:

"dennis@home" wrote:

Maybe fit a panic bolt to it and call it an escape route?

Ingenious, but I do need it to be a regular back door. And while I could
always remove the panic bolt after the completion certificate had been
issued, I do see the sense of the regulation about having a level space
outside the door. I must check and see if there's a specified depth.

Throughout the Northern provinces of this land in the morning you will
see women cleaning the front steps of their houses leading down to the
pavement, almost never with a landing at the top. What they all have in
common is that the front doors open inwards. Is this not feasible in
your situation, it would make things so much simpler? (I don't know if
building control still want a flat area for an inward opening door,
nothing would surprise me.)

Outward opening doors are a "good thing" in the event of fire.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Near me there is a listed building used by a bank. there have been numerous
complaints about people falling in or out of this door due to the narrow top
step. Its on a busy corner footway. However nobody can do anything it seems
as its a listed building. There is a wheelchair ramp round the back but its
not well known about as one has to use an intercom to tell them you want to
come in that way. I mean it is a bank after all!
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
wrote in message
...
On Friday, 9 August 2019 19:05:01 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
Or would Building Control refuse to sign off the work?

Building Control and Planning Permission are two completely different
things in law and the relevant departments often don't talk to each other.

How many steps - if it's a flight they'll probably pick up on it, if it's
only a couple of steps to the garden they might not.

Owain

Many thanks for all the latest replies.

I've been trying to find the exact building regulation governing step access
to outward-opening garden doors but for some reason I can't now track it
down. Google searches seem to throw up a bewildering array of possibilities
none of which address this particular point (or if they do, the info is so
well-buried as to be for all intents and purposes invisible).

If anyone can point me towards a straightforward explanation of the
situation and what needs to be done, I'd be very grateful. Thanks.

On 10/08/2019 11:38, Andrew wrote:
On 10/08/2019 09:52, GB wrote:
On 10/08/2019 04:56, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Bert Coules explained :
The floors are set unusually high above the basic ground level: the
plans show three steps, with the topmost one being one riser height
below the interior floor.** That's to say four risers have to be
negotiated to get inside the house.

Would four steps mean going the steps to grab the door handle,
pulling the door open and having to reverse down the steps whilst
pulling? Seems wrong to me.

Most doors open inwards.

Only in this country.

It has its advantages. My parents front door opens inwards, but the
porch door opens outwards (no choice as there isn't enough space to open
it inwards while you are in the porch). For a while a new milkman kept
putting the bottles on the step, making it impossible to get out in the
morning! Not a problem I and my wife have ever had with an inward
opening door.

SteveW

On Saturday, 10 August 2019 12:46:50 UTC+1, charles wrote:
Outward opening doors are a "good thing" in the event of fire.

Unless some sick ******* wedges them shut outside then watches everyone burn.

Owain

On 10/08/2019 12:44, charles wrote:
In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
Bert Coules wrote:

"dennis@home" wrote:

Maybe fit a panic bolt to it and call it an escape route?

Ingenious, but I do need it to be a regular back door. And while I could
always remove the panic bolt after the completion certificate had been
issued, I do see the sense of the regulation about having a level space
outside the door. I must check and see if there's a specified depth.

Throughout the Northern provinces of this land in the morning you will
see women cleaning the front steps of their houses leading down to the
pavement, almost never with a landing at the top. What they all have in
common is that the front doors open inwards. Is this not feasible in
your situation, it would make things so much simpler? (I don't know if
building control still want a flat area for an inward opening door,
nothing would surprise me.)

Outward opening doors are a "good thing" in the event of fire.

Only really needed in large buildings, where a crowd can push up against
the doors and stop them being opened inwards. In a private house, you
have far fewer people and much more cooperation.

Outward opening doors suffer from being blocked by someone placing
something outside or parking in the wrong place.

SteveW

On 10/08/2019 10:24, Rod Speed wrote:


"GB" wrote in message
...
On 10/08/2019 04:56, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Bert Coules explained :
The floors are set unusually high above the basic ground level: the
plans show three steps, with the topmost one being one riser height
below the interior floor.** That's to say four risers have to be
negotiated to get inside the house.

Would four steps mean going the steps to grab the door handle,
pulling the door open and having to reverse down the steps whilst
pulling? Seems wrong to me.

Most doors open inwards.

His doesn't.

The OP says it opens outwards. I was just pointing out the alternative.

Well, I found this, a splendidly clear explanation of the regs applying to
exterior doors, landings, and steps.

https://www.fremont.gov/DocumentCent...AND-THRESHOLDS

Unfortunately, as I only twigged after a first happy reading, it's
Californian...

On 10/08/2019 13:11, Bert Coules wrote:
Many thanks for all the latest replies.

I've been trying to find the exact building regulation governing step
access to outward-opening garden doors but for some reason I can't now
track it down.Â* Google searches seem to throw up a bewildering array of
possibilities none of which address this particular point (or if they
do, the info is so well-buried as to be for all intents and purposes
invisible).

If anyone can point me towards a straightforward explanation of the
situation and what needs to be done, I'd be very grateful.Â* Thanks.



Have you considered having a raised patio where you can sit out at the
same height as the house floor? Otherwise, just to bring a tray of tea
out, you'll have to carry it down four stairs.

GB wrote:

Have you considered having a raised patio where you can sit out at the
same height as the house floor?

I have, yes, though the back door isn't the only access from inside the
house to the garden: there are also patio doors from a different room, so a
floor-level patio adjacent to them (either in addition to the back door one
or instead of it) is also a possibility.

I like the idea of a same- (or almost the same) level patio, but the height
of the interior floors might give a matching table-and-chairs area an
uncomfortable view into my neighbour's property even over the six-foot fence
which separates us.

Although it doesn't specifically mention outdoor installations, this site
gives the clearest indication of at least part of the regs that I've yet
found. Scroll down to Landings item 3: " No door should swing closer than
400mm to the front of any step". And there's a helpful drawing.

https://www.wonkeedonkeerichardburbi...ons-explained/

On 10/08/2019 13:50, wrote:
On Saturday, 10 August 2019 12:46:50 UTC+1, charles wrote:
Outward opening doors are a "good thing" in the event of fire.

Unless some sick ******* wedges them shut outside then watches everyone burn.

Owain


I went down the fire escape to exit the cinema in West Brom once (people
always did) only to find it wouldn't open because some prat had parked
his car against it.

I bet he didn't like the dents after I kicked the door into the car a
few times.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
Bert Coules wrote:

"dennis@home" wrote:

Maybe fit a panic bolt to it and call it an escape route?

Ingenious, but I do need it to be a regular back door. And while I
could
always remove the panic bolt after the completion certificate had been
issued, I do see the sense of the regulation about having a level space
outside the door. I must check and see if there's a specified depth.

Throughout the Northern provinces of this land in the morning you will
see women cleaning the front steps of their houses leading down to the
pavement, almost never with a landing at the top. What they all have in
common is that the front doors open inwards. Is this not feasible in
your situation, it would make things so much simpler? (I don't know if
building control still want a flat area for an inward opening door,
nothing would surprise me.)

Outward opening doors are a "good thing" in the event of fire.

That’s only really true when there are a lot more
people involved than you get with a house.

On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 04:48:18 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Outward opening doors are a "good thing" in the event of fire.

That¢s only really true when there are a lot more
people involved than you get with a house.

Oh shut your pathological auto-contradicting senile gob finally, you senile
obnoxious asshole from Australia!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On 10/08/2019 10:10, Bert Coules wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Would four steps mean going the steps to grab the door handle, pulling
the door open and having to reverse down the steps whilst pulling?

Yes, or standing one step down, reaching up to open the door, then
making slightly less of a reverse descent.

Seems wrong to me.

Me too, hence (presumably) the building reg requirement of a sort of
outside landing deep enough to allow the door to be opened while the
opener remains on the same level.


The problem with steps immediately in front of the door is the danger
that, without being able to see the step until the door is open,
someone exiting in a hurry will not see the step and fall.




Tricky to arrange in my case, though
- to the extent that I'm beginning to wonder about replacing the (uPVC)
door with an inward-opening one.




--
djc

(–€Ì¿Ä¹Ì¯–€Ì¿ Ì¿)
No low-hanging fruit, just a lot of small berries up a tall tree.

On 10/08/2019 13:11, Bert Coules wrote:
Many thanks for all the latest replies.

I've been trying to find the exact building regulation governing step
access to outward-opening garden doors but for some reason I can't now
track it down.Â* Google searches seem to throw up a bewildering array of
possibilities none of which address this particular point (or if they
do, the info is so well-buried as to be for all intents and purposes
invisible).

If anyone can point me towards a straightforward explanation of the
situation and what needs to be done, I'd be very grateful.Â* Thanks.


https://www.gov.uk/government/collec...oved-documents

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ved-document-b

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ved-document-k

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ved-document-m




--
djc

(–€Ì¿Ä¹Ì¯–€Ì¿ Ì¿)
No low-hanging fruit, just a lot of small berries up a tall tree.

DJC wrote:

The problem with steps immediately in front of the door is the danger
that, without being able to see the step until the door is open, someone
exiting in a hurry will not see the step and fall.

I take the point but doesn't it also (if perhaps not quite equally) apply to
a hurried exit from an inward-opening door?

I think - especially after having to do so in today's high winds - that I'd
place the awkwardness and potential hazards of opening an outward door while
moving backwards down the adjacent steps outside as a considerably bigger
problem.

"DJC" wrote:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ved-document-m

Thanks for the links, of which this appears to be the most relevant. But
short of reading right through it, or discovering a better search facility,
I'm afraid I've still not managed to find any reference to the specific area
I'm interested in: outdoor steps leading to and from an outward-opening door
in a domestic dwelling.

Me being short-sighted or just plain stupid, no doubt.

On 10/08/2019 17:06, Bert Coules wrote:
GB wrote:

Have you considered having a raised patio where you can sit out at the
same height as the house floor?

I have, yes, though the back door isn't the only access from inside the
house to the garden: there are also patio doors from a different room,
so a floor-level patio adjacent to them (either in addition to the back
door one or instead of it) is also a possibility.

I like the idea of a same-Â* (or almost the same) level patio, but the
height of the interior floors might give a matching table-and-chairs
area an uncomfortable view into my neighbour's property even over the
six-foot fence which separates us.



Yes - that's why you'd need planning permission (as with any decking
over 300 mm).

Then IIRC building regulations would apply to the handrails, balustrades
etc.

Oh, it all makes work for the working man to...

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Many thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions.

After weighing up and costing all the options, I think I've decided in
favour of replacing the door with one which opens inwards.

A pity that the existing uPVC door-and-frame unit can't be converted in some
way but I don't see any practical way of achieving that.

Anyone want to buy a door?

On 11/08/2019 11:50, Bert Coules wrote:
Many thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions.

After weighing up and costing all the options, I think I've decided in
favour of replacing the door with one which opens inwards.

A pity that the existing uPVC door-and-frame unit can't be converted in
some way but I don't see any practical way of achieving that.

Anyone want to buy a door?


You cant take the frame out and turn it 180 degrees?

Bert Coules wrote:

Many thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions.

After weighing up and costing all the options, I think I've decided in
favour of replacing the door with one which opens inwards.

A pity that the existing uPVC door-and-frame unit can't be converted in some
way but I don't see any practical way of achieving that.

Anyone want to buy a door?

I presume it would open on the wrong side if you just rotated it about a
vertical axis?


--

Roger Hayter