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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
Bought some sockets today, put the 2.5mm in, tightened the screw, the
cable promptly fell back out as the screw left too much room at either side. What would a proper electrician do in this circumstance? I folded the cable double but not really happy. Is this a common 'problem'? Wouldn't mind if i'd got them at the pound shop but they came from an electrical wholesaler. |
#2
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 12/07/2019 18:44, R D S wrote:
Bought some sockets today, put the 2.5mm in, tightened the screw, the cable promptly fell back out as the screw left too much room at either side. What would a proper electrician do in this circumstance? I folded the cable double but not really happy. Is this a common 'problem'? I thought that was how you should do it. The space is to allow ring main in and ring main out, plus possibly a cable to a single socket spur. I'd be more annoyed if there wasn't anough space to allow this. Wouldn't mind if i'd got them at the pound shop but they came from an electrical wholesaler. |
#3
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 12/07/2019 18:44, R D S wrote:
Bought some sockets today, put the 2.5mm in, tightened the screw, the cable promptly fell back out as the screw left too much room at either side. What would a proper electrician do in this circumstance? I folded the cable double but not really happy. Is this a common 'problem'? Wouldn't mind if i'd got them at the pound shop but they came from an electrical wholesaler. Care to name the brand and model number of the sockets? -- Adam |
#4
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 12/07/2019 19:20, Andrew wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:44, R D S wrote: Bought some sockets today, put the 2.5mm in, tightened the screw, the cable promptly fell back out as the screw left too much room at either side. What would a proper electrician do in this circumstance? I folded the cable double but not really happy. Is this a common 'problem'? I thought that was how you should do it. The space is to allow ring main in and ring main out, plus possibly a cable to a single socket spur. I'd be more annoyed if there wasn't anough space to allow this. The regs allow for 3 cables without modification. ie no bending double ISTR BS1363 pt 2 -- Adam |
#5
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 12/07/2019 19:25, ARW wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:44, R D S wrote: Bought some sockets today, put the 2.5mm in, tightened the screw, the cable promptly fell back out as the screw left too much room at either side. What would a proper electrician do in this circumstance? I folded the cable double but not really happy. Is this a common 'problem'? Wouldn't mind if i'd got them at the pound shop but they came from an electrical wholesaler. Care to name the brand and model number of the sockets? Selectric Square IIRC. |
#6
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 12/07/2019 19:20, Andrew wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:44, R D S wrote: Bought some sockets today, put the 2.5mm in, tightened the screw, the cable promptly fell back out as the screw left too much room at either side. What would a proper electrician do in this circumstance? I folded the cable double but not really happy. Is this a common 'problem'? I thought that was how you should do it. The space is to allow ring main in and ring main out, plus possibly a cable to a single socket spur. I'd be more annoyed if there wasn't anough space to allow this. Plenty of space, my bother is that the terminal screw is too narrow allowing the cable to slip to either side rather than clamping it. |
#7
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 12/07/2019 19:32, R D S wrote:
On 12/07/2019 19:25, ARW wrote: On 12/07/2019 18:44, R D S wrote: Bought some sockets today, put the 2.5mm in, tightened the screw, the cable promptly fell back out as the screw left too much room at either side. What would a proper electrician do in this circumstance? I folded the cable double but not really happy. Is this a common 'problem'? Wouldn't mind if i'd got them at the pound shop but they came from an electrical wholesaler. Care to name the brand and model number of the sockets? Selectric Square IIRC. I know them. Square wire holder with a round screw. Put the cables in diagonally into the screw holder and the screw might grab them. -- Adam |
#8
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 12/07/2019 19:37, ARW wrote:
On 12/07/2019 19:32, R D S wrote: On 12/07/2019 19:25, ARW wrote: On 12/07/2019 18:44, R D S wrote: Bought some sockets today, put the 2.5mm in, tightened the screw, the cable promptly fell back out as the screw left too much room at either side. What would a proper electrician do in this circumstance? I folded the cable double but not really happy. Is this a common 'problem'? Wouldn't mind if i'd got them at the pound shop but they came from an electrical wholesaler. Care to name the brand and model number of the sockets? Selectric Square IIRC. I know them. Square wire holder with a round screw. Put the cables in diagonally into the screw holder and the screw might grab them. Can't see anything wrong with folding double if only putting a single wire in. |
#9
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 12/07/2019 19:36, R D S wrote:
On 12/07/2019 19:20, Andrew wrote: On 12/07/2019 18:44, R D S wrote: Bought some sockets today, put the 2.5mm in, tightened the screw, the cable promptly fell back out as the screw left too much room at either side. What would a proper electrician do in this circumstance? I folded the cable double but not really happy. Is this a common 'problem'? I thought that was how you should do it. The space is to allow ring main in and ring main out, plus possibly a cable to a single socket spur. I'd be more annoyed if there wasn't anough space to allow this. Plenty of space, my bother is that the terminal screw is too narrow allowing the cable to slip to either side rather than clamping it. There is probably a crimp terminal you can put on if needed. Maybe https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-power/st...27a/dp/CN11386 Never used them myself, maybe ARW has and can advise. |
#10
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 12/07/2019 21:09, newshound wrote:
On 12/07/2019 19:37, ARW wrote: On 12/07/2019 19:32, R D S wrote: On 12/07/2019 19:25, ARW wrote: On 12/07/2019 18:44, R D S wrote: Bought some sockets today, put the 2.5mm in, tightened the screw, the cable promptly fell back out as the screw left too much room at either side. What would a proper electrician do in this circumstance? I folded the cable double but not really happy. Is this a common 'problem'? Wouldn't mind if i'd got them at the pound shop but they came from an electrical wholesaler. Care to name the brand and model number of the sockets? Selectric Square IIRC. I know them. Square wire holder with a round screw. Put the cables in diagonally into the screw holder and the screw might grab them. Can't see anything wrong with folding double if only putting a single wire in. Or could you file the bottom of the screw flat. |
#11
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
R D S wrote :
Bought some sockets today, put the 2.5mm in, tightened the screw, the cable promptly fell back out as the screw left too much room at either side. Poor design. Better quality ones have a screw which can almost fill the terminal hole if screwed all the way in, no space for a cable to escape. |
#12
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 12/07/2019 21:09, newshound wrote:
On 12/07/2019 19:37, ARW wrote: On 12/07/2019 19:32, R D S wrote: On 12/07/2019 19:25, ARW wrote: On 12/07/2019 18:44, R D S wrote: Bought some sockets today, put the 2.5mm in, tightened the screw, the cable promptly fell back out as the screw left too much room at either side. What would a proper electrician do in this circumstance? I folded the cable double but not really happy. Is this a common 'problem'? Wouldn't mind if i'd got them at the pound shop but they came from an electrical wholesaler. Care to name the brand and model number of the sockets? Selectric Square IIRC. I know them. Square wire holder with a round screw. Put the cables in diagonally into the screw holder and the screw might grab them. Can't see anything wrong with folding double if only putting a single wire in. Agreed. -- Adam |
#13
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 12/07/2019 21:51, dennis@home wrote:
On 12/07/2019 19:36, R D S wrote: On 12/07/2019 19:20, Andrew wrote: On 12/07/2019 18:44, R D S wrote: Bought some sockets today, put the 2.5mm in, tightened the screw, the cable promptly fell back out as the screw left too much room at either side. What would a proper electrician do in this circumstance? I folded the cable double but not really happy. Is this a common 'problem'? I thought that was how you should do it. The space is to allow ring main in and ring main out, plus possibly a cable to a single socket spur. I'd be more annoyed if there wasn't anough space to allow this. Plenty of space, my bother is that the terminal screw is too narrow allowing the cable to slip to either side rather than clamping it. There is probably a crimp terminal you can put on if needed. Maybe https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-power/st...27a/dp/CN11386 Never used them myself, maybe ARW has and can advise. I used loads yesterday. But that was on flex to relays and PSUs - probably the most unpleasant job I have ever done. Some dick wants mag locks on some small roller shutter doors to secure them in the open and closed positions. No specs, no design just get on with it and it seems no one has tried it before. The working hours are 10am to 11am and 12.15 pm to 3pm but you can only work on the outside of the shutters between 12.30pm and 2pm. All shutters must be left in a working state when you are not working on them. I also need to mention that it takes 5 minutes to get from the inside to the outside of the shutters and even when open there is only a small access panel to pass tools through (you can just get an impact driver through it). The walls are steel lined ply with insulation in the cavity. No access to the internet to learn how to set the limit switches on the roller shutters (worked that one out on site by trial and error) and no manual for the shutter door controls (had to "read" the PCB to see how that worked). Need an extra tool or part? A trip to the van is a 20 minute round trip. And it works flawlessly. Only another 7 to do. -- Adam |
#14
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
There is probably a crimp terminal you can put on if needed. Maybe https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-power/st...27a/dp/CN11386 Never used them myself, maybe ARW has and can advise. I used loads yesterday. But that was on flex to relays and PSUs - probably the most unpleasant job I have ever done. Some dick wants mag locks on some small roller shutter doors to secure them in the open and closed positions. No specs, no design just get on with it and it seems no one has tried it before. The working hours are 10am to 11am and 12.15 pm to 3pm but you can only work on the outside of the shutters between 12.30pm and 2pm. All shutters must be left in a working state when you are not working on them. I also need to mention that it takes 5 minutes to get from the inside to the outside of the shutters and even when open there is only a small access panel to pass tools through (you can just get an impact driver through it). The walls are steel lined ply with insulation in the cavity. No access to the internet to learn how to set the limit switches on the roller shutters (worked that one out on site by trial and error) and no manual for the shutter door controls (had to "read" the PCB to see how that worked). Need an extra tool or part? A trip to the van is a 20 minute round trip. And it works flawlessly. Only another 7 to do. -- Adam Has to be a prison - cell doors perhaps - or maybe food serving slots? Charles F |
#15
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 13/07/2019 07:13, Charles F wrote:
There is probably a crimp terminal you can put on if needed. Maybe https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-power/st...27a/dp/CN11386 Never used them myself, maybe ARW has and can advise. I used loads yesterday. But that was on flex to relays and PSUs - probably the most unpleasant job I have ever done. Some dick wants mag locks on some small roller shutter doors to secure them in the open and closed positions. No specs, no design just get on with it and it seems no one has tried it before. The working hours are 10am to 11am and 12.15 pm to 3pm but you can only work on the outside of the shutters between 12.30pm and 2pm. All shutters must be left in a working state when you are not working on them. I also need to mention that it takes 5 minutes to get from the inside to the outside of the shutters and even when open there is only a small access panel to pass tools through (you can just get an impact driver through it). The walls are steel lined ply with insulation in the cavity. No access to the internet to learn how to set the limit switches on the roller shutters (worked that one out on site by trial and error) and no manual for the shutter door controls (had to "read" the PCB to see how that worked). Need an extra tool or part? A trip to the van is a 20 minute round trip. And it works flawlessly. Only another 7 to do. Has to be a prison - cell doors perhaps - or maybe food serving slots? Medical servery in a prison. Everyone should visit one. -- Adam |
#17
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
R D S wrote : Bought some sockets today, put the 2.5mm in, tightened the screw, the cable promptly fell back out as the screw left too much room at either side. Poor design. Better quality ones have a screw which can almost fill the terminal hole if screwed all the way in, no space for a cable to escape. There seem to me to be very few well designed screw down terminals in most 'standard' electrical items. Many in Consumer Units are far too easy to get the wire/bus the wrong side of the clamping plate. The ones in plugs and sockets often suffer from the problem the OP describes. Many in junction boxes have silly round ended grub screws that seem to be the most un-useful shape they could possibly be. -- Chris Green · |
#18
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
Brian Gaff brought next idea :
I'm surprised technology has not improved on a screw by now, maybe to a screw pushing a spring plate system as you can find in some terminal blocks. Those seem firm as there is no real space for the wire to slip round the side, but then holes are often not round but rectangular. It has, some accessory manufacturers use exactly what you describe. A square socket/hole for the cable, with a metal plate tightened down by a screw. Whether they are better or not, is debatable - they make it more complex/ more points of potential failure. What I particularly hate, is the type which uses a soft metal plate, which deforms. Undoing the screw and pulling the wire out, leaves the plate still deformed - so it is difficult to reinsert the wire. |
#19
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 13/07/2019 09:59, Chris Green wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote: R D S wrote : Bought some sockets today, put the 2.5mm in, tightened the screw, the cable promptly fell back out as the screw left too much room at either side. Poor design. Better quality ones have a screw which can almost fill the terminal hole if screwed all the way in, no space for a cable to escape. There seem to me to be very few well designed screw down terminals in most 'standard' electrical items. Many in Consumer Units are far too easy to get the wire/bus the wrong side of the clamping plate. The ones in plugs and sockets often suffer from the problem the OP describes. Many in junction boxes have silly round ended grub screws that seem to be the most un-useful shape they could possibly be. And you cannot get the bus bar the wrong side of MK and Hager MCBs. -- Adam |
#20
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
In article ,
R D S wrote: Bought some sockets today, put the 2.5mm in, tightened the screw, the cable promptly fell back out as the screw left too much room at either side. What would a proper electrician do in this circumstance? I folded the cable double but not really happy. Is this a common 'problem'? 13 amp sockets are designed for up to three 2.5mm cables. Having just one, pretty well the rarest siituation. Doubling the cable is the normal way. -- *Cleaned by Stevie Wonder, checked by David Blunkett* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#21
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
To double over or not arguement regularly comes up and I have yet to see a definitive answer. From experience of taking sockets off mostly installed by professionals I would say the majority I have done have not been doubled with the exception of the CPC which I have come across regularly.
Personally I do not double over in case sometime in the future a spur needs to be added. I do tend to use known makes eg MK and have yet to experience any problems of wires not being grabbed in sockets. The last time I had a loose wire was in a wall switch which was a no name make my SiL bought. So I would really like to know what the current professional opinion is on the subject? Richard |
#22
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
Tricky Dicky formulated the question :
Personally I do not double over in case sometime in the future a spur needs to be added. I do tend to use known makes eg MK and have yet to experience any problems of wires not being grabbed in sockets. The last time I had a loose wire was in a wall switch which was a no name make my SiL bought. So I would really like to know what the current professional opinion is on the subject? I was always taught as near as possible to fill the terminal, to minimise resistance. If you double them over, then need to add extra wires, you can always cut off at the fold. |
#23
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 13/07/2019 12:48, Tricky Dicky wrote:
To double over or not arguement regularly comes up and I have yet to see a definitive answer. From experience of taking sockets off mostly installed by professionals I would say the majority I have done have not been doubled with the exception of the CPC which I have come across regularly. Personally I do not double over in case sometime in the future a spur needs to be added. I do tend to use known makes eg MK and have yet to experience any problems of wires not being grabbed in sockets. The last time I had a loose wire was in a wall switch which was a no name make my SiL bought. The last time I had a loose wire was also in a wall (light) switch ... last night! I was glad it was a loose wire and not a failing switch, as the switches are no longer available, replacements don't necessarily have the terminals in the same place and it is a 4-gang switch, used for 2-way switching - so lots of cores in there. SteveW |
#24
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 13/07/2019 06:43, ARW wrote:
Snip I used loads yesterday. But that was on flex to relays and PSUs - probably the most unpleasant job I have ever done. Some dick wants mag locks on some small roller shutter doors to secure them in the open and closed positions. No specs, no design just get on with it and it seems no one has tried it before. The working hours are 10am to 11am and 12.15 pm to 3pm but you can only work on the outside of the shutters between 12.30pm and 2pm. All shutters must be left in a working state when you are not working on them. I also need to mention that it takes 5 minutes to get from the inside to the outside of the shutters and even when open there is only a small access panel to pass tools through (you can just get an impact driver through it). The walls are steel lined ply with insulation in the cavity. No access to the internet to learn how to set the limit switches on the roller shutters (worked that one out on site by trial and error) and no manual for the shutter door controls (had to "read" the PCB to see how that worked). Need an extra tool or part? A trip to the van is a 20 minute round trip. I worked for a company in 1997/8 where some of the staff were involved in the maintenence of security doors in Ashworth High Security Hospital. It took them ages to get in and out, they were only allowed to take a bare minimum of cutting tools in and if they needed something different or broke one, they had to pack everything up and take the long trip out and back in again. If they weren't finished on time, they had to stay and finish for security reasons. If they were still there after a certain time, they had to stay locked in for the night! SteveW |
#25
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
In article ,
Tricky Dicky wrote: Personally I do not double over in case sometime in the future a spur needs to be added. Eh? Just snip of the doubled over part if the spur wire won't fit. -- *Never slap a man who's chewing tobacco * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#26
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
In article , steve@walker-
family.me.uk says... I worked for a company in 1997/8 where some of the staff were involved in the maintenence of security doors in Ashworth High Security Hospital. It took them ages to get in and out, they were only allowed to take a bare minimum of cutting tools in and if they needed something different or broke one, they had to pack everything up and take the long trip out and back in again. If they weren't finished on time, they had to stay and finish for security reasons. If they were still there after a certain time, they had to stay locked in for the night! When I worked on the Stock Exchange cable TV system in the early 70s, on a couple of occasions I had to do some work on the distribution system in the bowels of the Bank of England. I had an escort, naturally, but if I'd known where I wanted to go, I could have gone there without him as there were no security barriers! That was the basis of their security - make it easy for you penetrate the system as deeply as you like - but make it impossible for you to get out again! Obviously, the further you went, the more barriers there were between you and the outside world! One thing I particularly remember is walking past an open doorway and seeing a fork lift truck in the room beyond moving gold ingots around. This was, of course, in the days before the Imprudent Gorgon flogged them off at a bargain basement price. -- Terry --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com |
#27
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote: I've seen this as well, but always I find that several months after installation you need to retighten the screws due to it all relaxing. If you strip enough and fold it nicely it then grips quite well. I'm surprised technology has not improved on a screw by now, maybe to a screw pushing a spring plate system as you can find in some terminal blocks. Given the life of most electrical installations, I'd not trust a spring to retain its effectiveness for long enough. Nothing wrong with a screw terminal connection if you have some common sense. -- *Why are they called apartments, when they're all stuck together? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#28
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 20/07/2019 13:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Brian Gaff wrote: I've seen this as well, but always I find that several months after installation you need to retighten the screws due to it all relaxing. If you strip enough and fold it nicely it then grips quite well. I'm surprised technology has not improved on a screw by now, maybe to a screw pushing a spring plate system as you can find in some terminal blocks. Given the life of most electrical installations, I'd not trust a spring to retain its effectiveness for long enough. Would you trust a 'maintenance free' connector, like Wago ?. Somehow I suspect that the plastic that these are made of will become brittle with age and silently release its grip, decades down the line. Nothing wrong with a screw terminal connection if you have some common sense. |
#29
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 20/07/2019 13:34, Andrew wrote:
Would you trust a 'maintenance free' connector, like Wago ?. Somehow I suspect that the plastic that these are made of will become brittle with age and silently release its grip, decades down the line. They don't appear to depend on the plastic to maintain the pressure on the joint. Even if you strip away the plastic housing it looks like the springy metal would still hold the cable ends securely together. |
#30
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 20/07/2019 13:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Brian Gaff wrote: I've seen this as well, but always I find that several months after installation you need to retighten the screws due to it all relaxing. If you strip enough and fold it nicely it then grips quite well. I'm surprised technology has not improved on a screw by now, maybe to a screw pushing a spring plate system as you can find in some terminal blocks. Given the life of most electrical installations, I'd not trust a spring to retain its effectiveness for long enough. Nothing wrong with a screw terminal connection if you have some common sense. I still see/find junction boxes (40 years old or more) under floorboards that are fine. -- Adam |
#31
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
"Andrew" wrote in message ... On 20/07/2019 13:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Brian Gaff wrote: I've seen this as well, but always I find that several months after installation you need to retighten the screws due to it all relaxing. If you strip enough and fold it nicely it then grips quite well. I'm surprised technology has not improved on a screw by now, maybe to a screw pushing a spring plate system as you can find in some terminal blocks. Given the life of most electrical installations, I'd not trust a spring to retain its effectiveness for long enough. Would you trust a 'maintenance free' connector, like Wago ?. Somehow I suspect that the plastic that these are made of will become brittle with age and silently release its grip, decades down the line. No reason why it should, the cable doesnt. Nothing wrong with a screw terminal connection if you have some common sense. |
#32
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More Heavy Trolling by Senile Nym-Shifting Rodent Speed!
On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 06:41:11 +1000, Swer, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote: No reason why it should, the cable doesnąt. What was the reason you changed nym yet again, senile asshole troll? -- FredXX to Rot Speed: "You are still an idiot and an embarrassment to your country. No wonder we shipped the likes of you out of the British Isles. Perhaps stupidity and criminality is inherited after all?" Message-ID: |
#33
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
On 20/07/2019 14:12, Mike Clarke wrote:
On 20/07/2019 13:34, Andrew wrote: Would you trust a 'maintenance free' connector, like Wago ?. Somehow I suspect that the plastic that these are made of will become brittle with age and silently release its grip, decades down the line. They don't appear to depend on the plastic to maintain the pressure on the joint. Even if you strip away the plastic housing it looks like the springy metal would still hold the cable ends securely together. But does the springy metal rely on the integrity of the plastic housing to maintain its pressure on the cables ?. |
#34
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
Andrew wrote:
Mike Clarke wrote: They don't appear to depend on the plastic to maintain the pressure on the joint. Even if you strip away the plastic housing it looks like the springy metal would still hold the cable ends securely together. But does the springy metal rely on the integrity of the plastic housing to maintain its pressure on the cables ?. Even after the plastic housing has caught fire and completely burnt away, the springy metal still connects the wires ... https://youtu.be/2uYD8e7idnY |
#35
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
In article ,
Swer wrote: Somehow I suspect that the plastic that these are made of will become brittle with age and silently release its grip, decades down the line. No reason why it should, the cable doesnt. Does your cable have plastic conductors in OZ, Wodney? Or just in your mind? -- *Rehab is for quitters. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#36
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Socket terminal screws not grabbing cable....
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Swer wrote: Somehow I suspect that the plastic that these are made of will become brittle with age and silently release its grip, decades down the line. No reason why it should, the cable doesn't. Does your cable have plastic conductors Wagos don't either, ****wit. |
#37
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More Heavy Trolling by Senile Nym-Shifting Rodent Speed!
On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:07:29 +1000, Swer, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote: Does your cable have plastic conductors Wagos don't either, ****wit. Hey, you were lucky, senile asshole! Someone talked to you again after you changed nym! LOL -- Sqwertz to Rot Speed: "This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative asshole. MID: |
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