I'd be grateful for any pointers to the relevant regs covering external
steps from back doors (one conventional, one patio) into a garden. I've
looked online but for some reason can't find exactly the information I'm
after.

The drop involved is 24" / 600mm and the steps will be going onto a garden
surface which currently is grassed but will eventually be paved, so there's
a possibility that whatever steps are built now will eventually have to be
replaced if they can't be removed, adapted and refitted.

There will be two separate sets of steps, the widest around 39" / 1m. These
steps are from a recently-built rear extension and the work can't be signed
off until they're done, so I need to know if (for example) side handrails
and bannister-type railings are necessary, and also any standards regarding
materials and strength.

Many thanks.

"Bert Coules" wrote in message
o.uk...
I'd be grateful for any pointers to the relevant regs covering external
steps from back doors (one conventional, one patio) into a garden. I've
looked online but for some reason can't find exactly the information I'm
after.

The drop involved is 24" / 600mm and the steps will be going onto a garden
surface which currently is grassed but will eventually be paved, so
there's a possibility that whatever steps are built now will eventually
have to be replaced if they can't be removed, adapted and refitted.

There will be two separate sets of steps, the widest around 39" / 1m.
These steps are from a recently-built rear extension and the work can't be
signed off until they're done, so I need to know if (for example) side
handrails and bannister-type railings are necessary, and also any
standards regarding materials and strength.

Many thanks.

over 600mm change in level you need a landing regardless of the door opening
in .....over 600mm you need a balustrade on the landing and a handrail to
the stair ....well that is how it was 10 years ago in Scotland but things
might be sillier these days ......

Jim GM4DHJ wrote:

Over 600mm change in level you need a landing regardless of the door
opening in .....over 600mm you need a balustrade on the landing and a
handrail to the stair ....well that is how it was 10 years ago in Scotland
but things might be sillier these days ......

Thanks for that. The drop from my two doors is pretty much exactly 600mm
but I was imagining the first step to be below that rather than level with
it. The back door opens outwards, the patio door sideways (of course) which
might also affect things, I suppose.

"Bert Coules" wrote in message
o.uk...
Jim GM4DHJ wrote:

Over 600mm change in level you need a landing regardless of the door
opening in .....over 600mm you need a balustrade on the landing and a
handrail to the stair ....well that is how it was 10 years ago in
Scotland but things might be sillier these days ......

Thanks for that. The drop from my two doors is pretty much exactly 600mm
but I was imagining the first step to be below that rather than level with
it. The back door opens outwards, the patio door sideways (of course)
which might also affect things, I suppose.


usually works out we accepted a max of four steps at a push with no
landing.......whether there was a slip step or not it should be measured
from floor level to average ground level .......the door can't open over
steps....wife is still listening to your Shelrock holmes when out mowing the
lawn .......thanks for keeping her quiet for me....tee hee

Jim GM4DHJ wrote:

...the door can't open over steps.

Ah, I didn't realise that: it will definitely make a difference to the
design, either of the steps now or the patio later. Is there a minimum
allowable depth to an outside landing?

Regarding your wife, you're very welcome.

On 04/06/2019 13:33, Bert Coules wrote:
...the door can't open over steps.

But if you have a `landing`and then the steps can the door open out over
the landing.
This was the case 25 years ago when my house was built, builder put a
wooden landing in from utility to garage, after building passed it he
took the landing away and left the steps. (Scotland)

On 04/06/2019 12:12, Bert Coules wrote:
I'd be grateful for any pointers to the relevant regs covering external
steps from back doors (one conventional, one patio) into a garden.Â* I've
looked online but for some reason can't find exactly the information I'm
after.

The drop involved is 24" / 600mm and the steps will be going onto a
garden surface which currently is grassed but will eventually be paved,
so there's a possibility that whatever steps are built now will
eventually have to be replaced if they can't be removed, adapted and
refitted.

There will be two separate sets of steps, the widest around 39" / 1m.
These steps are from a recently-built rear extension and the work can't
be signed off until they're done, so I need to know if (for example)
side handrails and bannister-type railings are necessary, and also any
standards regarding materials and strength.

Building regs approved document K has chapter and verse on steps:

https://assets.publishing.service.go..._AD_K_2013.pdf




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Thanks for that link, John.

"ss" wrote:

But if you have a `landing`and then the steps can the door open out over
the landing.

I'm not sure there's enough space available immediately outside the back
door to accommodate both a landing and some steps. And a landing on its
own, though it would probably prove an interesting talking point, would be
of limited practical value. As an extreme solution I might have to
investigate rehanging the door.

"ss" wrote in message
...
On 04/06/2019 13:33, Bert Coules wrote:
...the door can't open over steps.

But if you have a `landing`and then the steps can the door open out over
the landing.
This was the case 25 years ago when my house was built, builder put a
wooden landing in from utility to garage, after building passed it he took
the landing away and left the steps. (Scotland)

shocking...don't know why we bothered....tee hee

Most people seem now to be building ramps not steps, I guess it is probably
due to them all getting on in years and may end up in a wheelchair.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Bert Coules" wrote in message
o.uk...
I'd be grateful for any pointers to the relevant regs covering external
steps from back doors (one conventional, one patio) into a garden. I've
looked online but for some reason can't find exactly the information I'm
after.

The drop involved is 24" / 600mm and the steps will be going onto a garden
surface which currently is grassed but will eventually be paved, so
there's a possibility that whatever steps are built now will eventually
have to be replaced if they can't be removed, adapted and refitted.

There will be two separate sets of steps, the widest around 39" / 1m.
These steps are from a recently-built rear extension and the work can't be
signed off until they're done, so I need to know if (for example) side
handrails and bannister-type railings are necessary, and also any
standards regarding materials and strength.

Many thanks.

and the requirement for level access to a house .....


"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Most people seem now to be building ramps not steps, I guess it is
probably due to them all getting on in years and may end up in a
wheelchair.
Brian

Brian Gaff wrote:

Most people seem now to be building ramps not steps, I guess it is
probably due to them all getting on in years and may end up in a
wheelchair.

My sense of balance is sometimes a little shaky. I actually find it more
awkward (and occasionally distinctly unsettling) to walk up and down a ramp
than to negotiate steps.

On 04/06/2019 20:13, Brian Gaff wrote:
Most people seem now to be building ramps not steps, I guess it is probably
due to them all getting on in years and may end up in a wheelchair.
Brian

But for outdoors, where someone does not use a wheelchair, steps are
usually a lot safer, especially in icy weather. Ramps also take up a lot
of space.

I feel that in most cases, it would be better not to generally provide
level access, ramps and other disabled friendly items, but to give 100%
grants for specific changes needed in each home, as and when required -
even for houses where disabled people only visit occassionally - thus
not burdening people with unneccessary designs that they do not want,
while providing exactly what they need, if required.

SteveW

On 04/06/2019 22:40, Bert Coules wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote:

Most people seem now to be building ramps not steps, I guess it is
probably due to them all getting on in years and may end up in a
wheelchair.

My sense of balance is sometimes a little shaky.Â* I actually find it
more awkward (and occasionally distinctly unsettling) to walk up and
down a ramp than to negotiate steps.

Yes. My wife suffers from balance problems - a legacy of preganancy
hormones affecting brain's processing of visual and inner ear balance
signals. Apparently the signals arrive at different times and the brain
correct for the lag of the visual signals, but in her case, the
correction has been affected.

She struggles enough with steps - especially going downwards - and has
to take it slow and hang onto the handrail. On ramps that's not enough
and she hangs on to me as well.

SteveW

Steve Walker wrote:

I feel that in most cases, it would be better not to generally provide
level access, ramps and other disabled friendly items, but to give 100%
grants for specific changes needed in each home, as and when required -
even for houses where disabled people only visit occasionally - thus not
burdening people with unnecessary designs that they do not want, while
providing exactly what they need, if required.

A sensible approach. The level-access / ramp requirement is presumably a
result of the all too common attitude that "disabled" means "in a
wheelchair". This does seem to be changing now, with "Not all disabilities
are visible" signs beginning to appear in various places, but as yet the
change doesn't appear to have percolated through to the building regs.

Steve Walker wrote:

But for outdoors, where someone does not use a wheelchair, steps are
usually a lot safer, especially in icy weather. Ramps also take up a lot
of space.

I feel that in most cases, it would be better not to generally provide
level access, ramps and other disabled friendly items, but to give 100%
grants for specific changes needed in each home, as and when required -
even for houses where disabled people only visit occassionally - thus
not burdening people with unneccessary designs that they do not want,
while providing exactly what they need, if required.

Walking through a recently-built estate near me, I was noticing
that many, but not all, the houses appeared to have level access
to their front doors. One than had a ramp for several metres, at
which point there was 90 degree turn with a set of steps. ??

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
@ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

"Bert Coules" wrote in message
o.uk...
Steve Walker wrote:

I feel that in most cases, it would be better not to generally provide
level access, ramps and other disabled friendly items, but to give 100%
grants for specific changes needed in each home, as and when required -
even for houses where disabled people only visit occasionally - thus not
burdening people with unnecessary designs that they do not want, while
providing exactly what they need, if required.

A sensible approach. The level-access / ramp requirement is presumably a
result of the all too common attitude that "disabled" means "in a
wheelchair". This does seem to be changing now, with "Not all
disabilities are visible" signs beginning to appear in various places, but
as yet the change doesn't appear to have percolated through to the
building regs.


the requirement for the max gradient for ramps is very shallow and the
requirement for a landings every 2m and handrails makes them unnoticeable
and I think people are thinking about non-compliant ramps .......

"Chris J Dixon" wrote in message
...
Steve Walker wrote:

But for outdoors, where someone does not use a wheelchair, steps are
usually a lot safer, especially in icy weather. Ramps also take up a lot
of space.

I feel that in most cases, it would be better not to generally provide
level access, ramps and other disabled friendly items, but to give 100%
grants for specific changes needed in each home, as and when required -
even for houses where disabled people only visit occassionally - thus
not burdening people with unneccessary designs that they do not want,
while providing exactly what they need, if required.

Walking through a recently-built estate near me, I was noticing
that many, but not all, the houses appeared to have level access
to their front doors. One than had a ramp for several metres, at
which point there was 90 degree turn with a set of steps. ??

Chris

doesn't have to be the front door .....

On 04/06/2019 23:51, Steve Walker wrote:
I feel that in most cases, it would be better not to generally provide
level access, ramps and other disabled friendly items, but to give 100%
grants for specific changes needed in each home, as and when required -
even for houses where disabled people only visit occassionally - thus
not burdening people with unneccessary designs that they do not want,
while providing exactly what they need, if required.

Absolutely.

MOST disabled people in wheelchairs can manage a lot more 'step' than
the regs assume.

Each disability is different and special and wheelchairs are only one
aspect.



--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

On 04/06/2019 15:57, Bert Coules wrote:
"ss" wrote:

But if you have a `landing`and then the steps can the door open out
over the landing.

I'm not sure there's enough space available immediately outside the back
door to accommodate both a landing and some steps.Â* And a landing on its
own, though it would probably prove an interesting talking point, would
be of limited practical value.Â* As an extreme solution I might have to
investigate rehanging the door.

Could the steps go off to the side from the landing?

Cheers
--
Clive

On 04/06/2019 15:41, John Rumm wrote:
On 04/06/2019 12:12, Bert Coules wrote:
I'd be grateful for any pointers to the relevant regs covering
external steps from back doors (one conventional, one patio) into a
garden.Â* I've looked online but for some reason can't find exactly the
information I'm after.

The drop involved is 24" / 600mm and the steps will be going onto a
garden surface which currently is grassed but will eventually be
paved, so there's a possibility that whatever steps are built now will
eventually have to be replaced if they can't be removed, adapted and
refitted.

There will be two separate sets of steps, the widest around 39" / 1m.
These steps are from a recently-built rear extension and the work
can't be signed off until they're done, so I need to know if (for
example) side handrails and bannister-type railings are necessary, and
also any standards regarding materials and strength.

Building regs approved document K has chapter and verse on steps:

https://assets.publishing.service.go..._AD_K_2013.pdf

That seems clear - but how does the Lowry Mall get away with this?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...uly_2016.JP G

The steps immediately in front of the doors are OK but the artistic ones
in front of the circular forum break just about every rule there is.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 05/06/2019 08:43, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
"Bert Coules" wrote in message
o.uk...
Steve Walker wrote:

I feel that in most cases, it would be better not to generally provide
level access, ramps and other disabled friendly items, but to give 100%
grants for specific changes needed in each home, as and when required -
even for houses where disabled people only visit occasionally - thus not
burdening people with unnecessary designs that they do not want, while
providing exactly what they need, if required.

A sensible approach. The level-access / ramp requirement is presumably a
result of the all too common attitude that "disabled" means "in a
wheelchair". This does seem to be changing now, with "Not all
disabilities are visible" signs beginning to appear in various places, but
as yet the change doesn't appear to have percolated through to the
building regs.


the requirement for the max gradient for ramps is very shallow

Which is actually one of the problems, as that means a very long ramp,
taking up much of a small garden or losing parking space.

and the
requirement for a landings every 2m and handrails makes them unnoticeable
and I think people are thinking about non-compliant ramps .......

We have a nice ramp in our local town centre, providing access to a bank.

The pavement is about 10' wide and instead of providing steps directly
out of the door, with a ramp running at 90° to them along the front of
the bank or putting the entire ramp inside the bank (there is plenty of
room), the entire pavement is ramped up and down. There is already a
slight slope to the road, due to it rising to cross a railway line. The
end result is that in winter, unless the pavement is gritted, many
elderly people have to go out of their way to avoid using this section
of pavement for fear of slipping and falling.

Even worse is that it was done on the grounds of equality. It was deemed
no longer reasonable to require people with disabilities to use the back
door of the bank, where there was already both a ramp and steps -
despite many able-bodied customers (myself included) preferring to use
the back door, as it had direct access from a car-park, while there was
no parking at the front!

SteveW

Clive Arthur wrote:

Could the steps go off to the side from the landing?

Things would still be very tight. But it is a possibility. Thanks.

Martin Brown wrote:

Building regs approved document K has chapter and verse on steps:
https://assets.publishing.service.go..._AD_K_2013.pdf

Thanks for the link but the document is tricky to read on my desktop screen
as the left-hand edge of the text is masked by the menu and I can't see how
to minimise it. Changing the zoom setting only reveals the entire width of
the text once it's reached too small a size make out. I'll persevere.

Ah, I've now found the button to minimise the menu. Perseverance pays.

Bert Coules wrote:

the document is tricky to read on my desktop
screen as the left-hand edge of the text is masked by the menu and I
can't see how to minimise it.

Depending on your PDF viewer, toggle off the bookmarks panel

Andy, thanks for that. Our posts overlapped: I managed to sort it out just
before I read your message.

John Rumm wrote:

Building regs approved document K has chapter and verse on steps:

Unless I'm missing it (which is entirely likely) I can't see anything there
which specifically relates to outside steps and landing size, but I found at
least one other site which specifies a minimum exterior landing depth of
36".

I had been thinking of a comparatively open, perhaps iron-work, set of steps
(with handrails) on pillars, but a three-foot landing will surely need
something rather more substantial and solid. How is something like that
built onto a property without compromising the damp-proof course? Does
there have to be a small but definite gap between it and the building's
wall? I'll investigate.

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 04/06/2019 15:41, John Rumm wrote:
On 04/06/2019 12:12, Bert Coules wrote:
I'd be grateful for any pointers to the relevant regs covering external
steps from back doors (one conventional, one patio) into a garden. I've
looked online but for some reason can't find exactly the information I'm
after.

The drop involved is 24" / 600mm and the steps will be going onto a
garden surface which currently is grassed but will eventually be paved,
so there's a possibility that whatever steps are built now will
eventually have to be replaced if they can't be removed, adapted and
refitted.

There will be two separate sets of steps, the widest around 39" / 1m.
These steps are from a recently-built rear extension and the work can't
be signed off until they're done, so I need to know if (for example)
side handrails and bannister-type railings are necessary, and also any
standards regarding materials and strength.

Building regs approved document K has chapter and verse on steps:

https://assets.publishing.service.go..._AD_K_2013.pdf

That seems clear - but how does the Lowry Mall get away with this?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...uly_2016.JP G

The steps immediately in front of the doors are OK but the artistic ones
in front of the circular forum break just about every rule there is.

they are not covered by the building regs.....we have the same planning
inspired garbage in paisley ....

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 04/06/2019 23:51, Steve Walker wrote:
I feel that in most cases, it would be better not to generally provide
level access, ramps and other disabled friendly items, but to give 100%
grants for specific changes needed in each home, as and when required -
even for houses where disabled people only visit occassionally - thus not
burdening people with unneccessary designs that they do not want, while
providing exactly what they need, if required.

Absolutely.

MOST disabled people in wheelchairs can manage a lot more 'step' than the
regs assume.



the disabled lobby is most vociferous and can make your life a misery if you
get even the slightest detail wrong ......coming and going with owners
architects etc is not an option if you want a quiet life......

"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 04/06/2019 15:41, John Rumm wrote:
On 04/06/2019 12:12, Bert Coules wrote:
I'd be grateful for any pointers to the relevant regs covering external
steps from back doors (one conventional, one patio) into a garden. I've
looked online but for some reason can't find exactly the information
I'm after.

The drop involved is 24" / 600mm and the steps will be going onto a
garden surface which currently is grassed but will eventually be paved,
so there's a possibility that whatever steps are built now will
eventually have to be replaced if they can't be removed, adapted and
refitted.

There will be two separate sets of steps, the widest around 39" / 1m.
These steps are from a recently-built rear extension and the work can't
be signed off until they're done, so I need to know if (for example)
side handrails and bannister-type railings are necessary, and also any
standards regarding materials and strength.

Building regs approved document K has chapter and verse on steps:

https://assets.publishing.service.go..._AD_K_2013.pdf

That seems clear - but how does the Lowry Mall get away with this?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...uly_2016.JP G

The steps immediately in front of the doors are OK but the artistic ones
in front of the circular forum break just about every rule there is.

they are not covered by the building regs.....we have the same planning
inspired garbage in paisley ....




this was a bigger planning laugh at the same location .....it was a "shower"
with recirculated water you could run through but all the neds peed in it
and it had to be done away with....


https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/357549

Chris J Dixon Wrote in message:
Steve Walker wrote:

But for outdoors, where someone does not use a wheelchair, steps are
usually a lot safer, especially in icy weather. Ramps also take up a lot
of space.

I feel that in most cases, it would be better not to generally provide
level access, ramps and other disabled friendly items, but to give 100%
grants for specific changes needed in each home, as and when required -
even for houses where disabled people only visit occassionally - thus
not burdening people with unneccessary designs that they do not want,
while providing exactly what they need, if required.

Walking through a recently-built estate near me, I was noticing
that many, but not all, the houses appeared to have level access
to their front doors. One than had a ramp for several metres, at
which point there was 90 degree turn with a set of steps. ??

Chris

Wasnt there a classic ridiculous example discussed on here a few
years? ago?
Some ludicrous ramp system to get a wheelchair from the street up
a previously step ridden front garden/parking bay? All at public
expense iirc...
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 04/06/2019 12:12, Bert Coules wrote:
I'd be grateful for any pointers to the relevant regs covering external
steps from back doors (one conventional, one patio) into a garden. I've
looked online but for some reason can't find exactly the information I'm
after.

The drop involved is 24" / 600mm and the steps will be going onto a
garden surface which currently is grassed but will eventually be paved,
so there's a possibility that whatever steps are built now will
eventually have to be replaced if they can't be removed, adapted and
refitted.

There will be two separate sets of steps, the widest around 39" / 1m.
These steps are from a recently-built rear extension and the work can't
be signed off until they're done, so I need to know if (for example)
side handrails and bannister-type railings are necessary, and also any
standards regarding materials and strength.


What do the Building Regulations "Access to and use of buildings:
Approved Document M" say?

John Kenyon wrote:

What do the Building Regulations "Access to and use of buildings:
Approved Document M" say?

Having only looked at Document K, I've no idea; I'll take a look. Thanks.

Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

"Chris J Dixon" wrote in message

Walking through a recently-built estate near me, I was noticing
that many, but not all, the houses appeared to have level access
to their front doors. One than had a ramp for several metres, at
which point there was 90 degree turn with a set of steps. ??

doesn't have to be the front door .....

That may be the case, but why do this?

https://goo.gl/maps/nVZUp1FxQfHo4ZZB8

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
@ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

Chris J Dixon wrote:

That may be the case, but why do this?

https://goo.gl/maps/nVZUp1FxQfHo4ZZB8

Unless they imagined they were getting the best of both worlds, that does
seem a distinctly odd bit of construction. Perhaps they thought that the
requirement of a ramp up to the door didn't mean that it had to begin at
pavement level...

On 06/06/2019 15:01, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

"Chris J Dixon" wrote in message

Walking through a recently-built estate near me, I was noticing
that many, but not all, the houses appeared to have level access
to their front doors. One than had a ramp for several metres, at
which point there was 90 degree turn with a set of steps. ??

doesn't have to be the front door .....

That may be the case, but why do this?

https://goo.gl/maps/nVZUp1FxQfHo4ZZB8

Chris


Because they aren't clever enough to build the ramp the other way and
not need the steps.

On 06/06/2019 20:23, dennis@home wrote:
On 06/06/2019 15:01, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

"Chris J Dixon" wrote in message

Walking through a recently-built estate near me, I was noticing
that many, but not all, the houses appeared to have level access
to their front doors. One than had a ramp for several metres, at
which point there was 90 degree turn with a set of steps. ??

doesn't have to be the front door .....

That may be the case, but why do this?

https://goo.gl/maps/nVZUp1FxQfHo4ZZB8

Chris


Because they aren't clever enough to build the ramp the other way and
not need the steps.

Someone has probably got the ground levels wrong and so designed the
ramp going in the wrong direction and the builders have followed the
plan and then done their best to make it usable.

SteveW