We had a famous company (or rather their sub-contractors) fit our kitchen
back in November.

Over the past few weeks, we have noticed a "blocked drain" smell in our
hall and I duly rodded our drains and cleared the gullies by hand.

To make sure everything was flowing okay, I filled the bathroom and kitchen
sinks with water and drained them. To my amazement, when emptying the
kitchen sink, no water flowed through the drain.

I lifted the inspection hatch and repeated the process, thinking that
perhaps they had somehow re-routed the pipes. No water came past.

I suspected then that the kitchen sink was not, in fact, connected to the
outflow pipe. It could have been like this since November, or since last
month as when emptying the sink I have never felt a need to run outside to
check it was emptying into the drain!

After some cajoling, the company sent a plumber over. He found that this
was indeed the case, and that all the water from the kitchen sink has been
going straight down. We have no basement or cellar.

Apparently (I was not in, my partner was) it had been connected, but due to
some poor welding in the original copper pipes along with a blockage, the
plumbing from the sink has become separated.

I have a couple of questions if that's okay:

1. Is that explanation likely to be accurate?
2. Is it likely that any long-term damage could have been caused? Should I
get a professional opinion?

I dread to think how many thousands of gallons of water have done down the
kitchen sink since November, especially as now we have a young baby we are
constantly washing our hands, bottles, little feeding dishes and so on.

Many thanks in advance for any thoughts.

In article ,
iamaran wrote:
Apparently (I was not in, my partner was) it had been connected, but due
to some poor welding in the original copper pipes along with a
blockage, the plumbing from the sink has become separated.

Copper waste pipes are most unusual in a domestic situation. Commonly,
it's PVC, and the surface stuff is either push fit or solvent welded. Even
badly done solvent weld won't come apart - if it is solvent weld, it's
likely to have been only pushed together with no 'glue'.

--
*Do paediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Ben Blaukopf
wrote:
I wouldn't normally dip into a thread that others could answer far
better than me. But it sounds like complete bs to me. Waste pipes
are made from upvc, not copper.

Copper was the norm around 1960 though IME joined with lightweight
compression fittings.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

We had a famous company (or rather their sub-contractors) fit our kitchen
back in November.

Name and shame !

Apparently (I was not in, my partner was) it had been connected, but due to
some poor welding in the original copper pipes along with a blockage, the
plumbing from the sink has become separated.
I have a couple of questions if that's okay:
1. Is that explanation likely to be accurate?

Doubt it, but hey, i`m not a plumber (and neither was he by the sounds of
it !)

2. Is it likely that any long-term damage could have been caused? Should I
get a professional opinion?

I`d be asking the shop to pay for a proper surveyor (of your choosing !)

Did you pay for any of it by credit card ? The card issuer might be
jointly liable for any failures under the terms of the consumer credit
act.

Personally I think this one should go straight to uk.legal.moderated !

--
Please add "[newsgroup]" in the subject of any personal replies via email
--- My new email address has "ngspamtrap" & @btinternet.com in it ;-) ---

"iamaran" wrote in message
. 1.4...
Apparently (I was not in, my partner was) it had been connected, but due
to
some poor welding in the original copper pipes along with a blockage, the
plumbing from the sink has become separated.

I have a couple of questions if that's okay:

1. Is that explanation likely to be accurate?

I wouldn't normally dip into a thread that others could answer far better
than me. But it sounds like complete bs to me. Waste pipes are made
from upvc, not copper.

Ben

"Ben Blaukopf" wrote in message
...

"iamaran" wrote in message
. 1.4...
Apparently (I was not in, my partner was) it had been connected, but due
to
some poor welding in the original copper pipes along with a blockage,
the
plumbing from the sink has become separated.

I have a couple of questions if that's okay:

1. Is that explanation likely to be accurate?

I wouldn't normally dip into a thread that others could answer far better
than me. But it sounds like complete bs to me. Waste pipes are made
from upvc, not copper.

Ben


Ben,

Not entirely true, dependant upon the age of the property, they can be made
of lead, copper, plastic and iron.

Brian G

"Ben Blaukopf" wrote in message
...

"iamaran" wrote in message
. 1.4...
Apparently (I was not in, my partner was) it had been connected, but due
to
some poor welding in the original copper pipes along with a blockage, the
plumbing from the sink has become separated.

I have a couple of questions if that's okay:

1. Is that explanation likely to be accurate?

I wouldn't normally dip into a thread that others could answer far better
than me. But it sounds like complete bs to me. Waste pipes are made
from upvc, not copper.

Ben



may mean _solvent _weld_ waste pipes ?

RT

"iamaran" wrote in message
. 1.4...
After some cajoling, the company sent a plumber over. He found that this
was indeed the case, and that all the water from the kitchen sink has been
going straight down. We have no basement or cellar.

Where on earth has the water been going, so that you weren't aware of it?
What sort of floor do you have in the kitchen, do you have floorboards with
an air gap beneath? Has the water been pooling under there, and/or soaking
timbers or something?

David

"Lobster" wrote in
:

"iamaran" wrote in message
. 1.4...
After some cajoling, the company sent a plumber over. He found that
this was indeed the case, and that all the water from the kitchen
sink has been going straight down. We have no basement or cellar.

Where on earth has the water been going, so that you weren't aware of
it? What sort of floor do you have in the kitchen, do you have
floorboards with an air gap beneath? Has the water been pooling under
there, and/or soaking timbers or something?

David




Thanks for all the replies everyone.

Straight down is the answer. Yes, there are floorboards with a smallish
gap underneath. Not a huge amount of water down there; it seems to have
been draining away pretty well.

The smell has not been at the back of the house where the kitchen is,
but at the front, so I didn't suspect this at all. That's why I was
unblocking the outside drains by hand!

I do feel a bit stupid having never noticed that the kitchen sink didn't
drain out, but like I say I don't run out and check the drain when I
empty the washing-up bowl.

Now it's sunk in a little I'm a bit concerned about the health aspects
for our little 'un.

By the way it is a 1930s house, and the outflow pipe is copper, though
the new u-bend etc in the kitchen are plastic.

"iamaran" wrote in message
. 222.121...
"Lobster" wrote in
:

"iamaran" wrote in message
. 1.4...
After some cajoling, the company sent a plumber over. He found that
this was indeed the case, and that all the water from the kitchen
sink has been going straight down. We have no basement or cellar.

Where on earth has the water been going, so that you weren't aware of
it? What sort of floor do you have in the kitchen, do you have
floorboards with an air gap beneath? Has the water been pooling under
there, and/or soaking timbers or something?

David




Thanks for all the replies everyone.

Straight down is the answer. Yes, there are floorboards with a smallish
gap underneath. Not a huge amount of water down there; it seems to have
been draining away pretty well.

I'd get them to pay for a proper survey. The mind boddles as to what damage
could have been done.
Presumeably there's a smelly muddy mess at the lowest point.

iamaran wrote:

Straight down is the answer. Yes, there are floorboards with a smallish
gap underneath. Not a huge amount of water down there; it seems to have
been draining away pretty well.

It may be that the "floor" under the boards is in fact just soil. Had it
have been a concrete slab you would expect to see plenty of water laying
about. If it is soil then to all intents and purposes you have been
using your kitchen sub floor as a soakaway!

Now it's sunk in a little I'm a bit concerned about the health aspects
for our little 'un.

Since you are not coming into contact with the water, the risks should
be small. Having said that, the risks of damage to the property would
seem to be greater. I am supprised it had not managed to soak into the
back of a kitchen unit either (normal kitchen units tend to take on the
structural integrity of a damp wheetabix when they get wet!)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article . 121,
iamaran wrote:
By the way it is a 1930s house, and the outflow pipe is copper, though
the new u-bend etc in the kitchen are plastic.

That's why I was questioning what your latest plumber has said - it sounds
like he was trying to blame the existing waste. Copper isn't welded but
soldered - and is *very* unlikely to pull apart. But the stuff they used -
almost certainly push fit - can and will if it's badly done.

I'd also question how they coupled plastic to the copper - that's the
likely weak point.

--
*I get enough exercise just pushing my luck.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

--

Michael Chare
"iamaran" wrote in message
. 222.121...
"Lobster" wrote in
:

"iamaran" wrote in message
. 1.4...
After some cajoling, the company sent a plumber over. He found that
this was indeed the case, and that all the water from the kitchen
sink has been going straight down. We have no basement or cellar.

Where on earth has the water been going, so that you weren't aware of
it? What sort of floor do you have in the kitchen, do you have
floorboards with an air gap beneath? Has the water been pooling under
there, and/or soaking timbers or something?

David




Thanks for all the replies everyone.

Straight down is the answer. Yes, there are floorboards with a smallish
gap underneath. Not a huge amount of water down there; it seems to have
been draining away pretty well.

If the floor boards and joists have been wet for 8 months or so, it would be
worth checking that they have not started to rot. This happened in the 1930s
bungalow i had because of poor ventilation of the underfloor space, even
without leeking drains.

The smell has not been at the back of the house where the kitchen is,
but at the front, so I didn't suspect this at all. That's why I was
unblocking the outside drains by hand!

Can you tell where the water goes once it is under the floor. This could lead
you to where the residue in the water has collected.


I do feel a bit stupid having never noticed that the kitchen sink didn't
drain out, but like I say I don't run out and check the drain when I
empty the washing-up bowl.

Now it's sunk in a little I'm a bit concerned about the health aspects
for our little 'un.

You might be able to get some useful advice from your local council.


By the way it is a 1930s house, and the outflow pipe is copper, though
the new u-bend etc in the kitchen are plastic.

Michael Chare

"take away nojunk" wrote in message
...
Get them out again, it sounds very iffy, if they refuse find out what
organisations they are in (they should be in some kind of standards
organisation if at all good) and ring them, tell them the story and they
should
sort it out. Don't let it rest, they've made a cock up (subbies are
notorious,
just want job done asap and money paid as quickly as poss), kick up a
stink and
get some money back off them for all the hassle you've had, and name them
on
this group. Tel

Good sounding advice and you make it sound easy to get redress.

I suspect that if the OP has paid for the whole job and not held back a
substantial amount until satisfactory completion then he will be lucky to
get anything "back". Especially anything for "hassle". From my previous
experience of crap work I think that even if it went to court you'd only be
able to get compensation for actual loss/putting the job right/repair of any
damage. Plus probably costs of surveyors or whatever "experts" are needed. I
don't think "hassle" is quantifiable.

And good luck on the "contacting standard organisations" front. If we're
talking about "pay the fee and display the logo" type organisations then
some/most of these are worthless when a job has gone badly.

Good luck! Sadly this often seems to be the way nowadays when getting in the
"professionals" to do a job. If you want a job done properly, DIY, I say.

Simon.

1. Is that explanation likely to be accurate?

Sounds possible but not likely, unless they'd employed a complete
moron to install the drains. It's accuracy isn't relevant though, they
seem to have accepted liability.

2. Is it likely that any long-term damage could have been caused?

Yes, the dampness would increase the likeihood of mould, dry rot,
woodworm etc. The floor void needs to be thoroughly ventilated to dry
it out.
There will be solid, rotting food waste in the floor void, making
vermin (insect & rodent) infestation likely. It needs to be cleaned
out.

Should I get a professional opinion?

Yes. And monitor the condition of the floor void over several years.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
iamaran wrote:

Apparently (I was not in, my partner was) it had been connected, but due
to some poor welding in the original copper pipes along with a
blockage, the plumbing from the sink has become separated.


Copper waste pipes are most unusual in a domestic situation. Commonly,
it's PVC, and the surface stuff is either push fit or solvent welded. Even
badly done solvent weld won't come apart - if it is solvent weld, it's
likely to have been only pushed together with no 'glue'.

Thats is not uncommon.

My 'plumber from hell' used to make upo all his joints dry, start to
weld them,. go home for reh nitght, and then not turn up for days, then
forget the awkward ones and redo them later if they leaked.

Its a typical issue when you have plumbers and carpenters working in
tandem. The carpenters rush in and cover up the plumbing before its
finished and the plumbers shrug and have a cup of coffee.

(Aidan) wrote in news:9903aca9.0408021421.389a3724
@posting.google.com:

1. Is that explanation likely to be accurate?

Sounds possible but not likely, unless they'd employed a complete
moron to install the drains. It's accuracy isn't relevant though, they
seem to have accepted liability.

2. Is it likely that any long-term damage could have been caused?

Yes, the dampness would increase the likeihood of mould, dry rot,
woodworm etc. The floor void needs to be thoroughly ventilated to dry
it out.
There will be solid, rotting food waste in the floor void, making
vermin (insect & rodent) infestation likely. It needs to be cleaned
out.

Should I get a professional opinion?

Yes. And monitor the condition of the floor void over several years.

Once again, thanks for all the replies.

The good news is that they have replaced all of the copper piping for
plastic and all is emptying out where it should.

In reply to previous posts:

Under the floor does seem to be mainly soil and rubble. I can't tell
where the water has gone, and they said they couldn't either, saying that
there didn't seem to be much water visible. I think they are trying to
"downplay" the situation somewhat.

They marked the job sheet as "remedial work" so in some sense seem to
accepting liability (although verbally insisting they are not to blame).

Maybe they did say that the copper was soldered, not welded. I was not
in, my partner was, and to her the distinction between soldered and
welded is small! Having briefly seen the copper pipe (in two parts) it
just seemed to have been pushed together without any joining material.
But I am no expert.

I intend insisting that the large company pays for a surveyor of my
choosing. My contract is with them, not the subcontractor.

Many, many thanks for the replies.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Its a typical issue when you have plumbers and carpenters working in
tandem. The carpenters rush in and cover up the plumbing before its
finished and the plumbers shrug and have a cup of coffee.

Is it just me, or do most of the tradesmen seem to operate in this manner;
ie not giving a toss about their colleagues in other trades, or what
problems they cause them when they arrive subsequently? It's the same with
plastererers vs decorators; joiners vs electricians; plumbers vs
electricians etc etc. Maybe it's just that as a typical uk.d-i-y'er -
someone who's an amateur in all the above trades and dabbles in all of
them - I'm more aware of the problems than specialists? I don't think so
though...

David

In article ,
iamaran wrote:
Having briefly seen the copper pipe (in two parts) it
just seemed to have been pushed together without any joining material.
But I am no expert.

Not trying to be clever, but are you sure it is copper? Early push fit
stuff was often copper coloured...

--
*I was once a millionaire but my mom gave away my baseball cards

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Lobster wrote:
Its a typical issue when you have plumbers and carpenters working in
tandem. The carpenters rush in and cover up the plumbing before its
finished and the plumbers shrug and have a cup of coffee.

Is it just me, or do most of the tradesmen seem to operate in this
manner; ie not giving a toss about their colleagues in other trades, or
what problems they cause them when they arrive subsequently?

So you want them to hang around - unpaid - because of someone else's cock
up?

If you decide to employ tradesmen directly, then it's up to you to
supervise - and realise that it's not possible to be 100% accurate with
timings. Or employ a pro to do this side, ie an architect or clerk of
works.

On a small job, it might be worth paying the chippy extra to do this side
of the overall works.

--
*Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder...

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
:

In article ,
iamaran wrote:
Having briefly seen the copper pipe (in two parts) it
just seemed to have been pushed together without any joining material.
But I am no expert.

Not trying to be clever, but are you sure it is copper? Early push fit
stuff was often copper coloured...


Could well have been something else copper-coloured.
Does it make a difference to their explanation?

In article ,
iamaran wrote:
Having briefly seen the copper pipe (in two parts) it just seemed
to have been pushed together without any joining material. But I am
no expert.

Not trying to be clever, but are you sure it is copper? Early push fit
stuff was often copper coloured...


Could well have been something else copper-coloured. Does it make a
difference to their explanation?

Just that they appear to be blaming - at least in part - the original
installation for what is in all probability *their* fault. If they sort it
all out properly at no cost to you then it's academic. But blaming what is
actually their poor workmanship on something totally different is pretty
well standard practice.

FWIW, you'll still see copper used as waste in applications where physical
strength may be important - like pubs, etc. It's not cheap, though.

--
*Laugh alone and the world thinks you're an idiot.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
iamaran wrote:
Having briefly seen the copper pipe (in two parts) it just seemed
to have been pushed together without any joining material. But I am
no expert.

Not trying to be clever, but are you sure it is copper? Early push fit
stuff was often copper coloured...


Could well have been something else copper-coloured. Does it make a
difference to their explanation?

Just that they appear to be blaming - at least in part - the original
installation for what is in all probability *their* fault. If they sort it
all out properly at no cost to you then it's academic. But blaming what is
actually their poor workmanship on something totally different is pretty
well standard practice.

FWIW, you'll still see copper used as waste in applications where physical
strength may be important - like pubs, etc. It's not cheap, though.

--
*Laugh alone and the world thinks you're an idiot.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

let us know the outcome. I think we'd all be intersted to hear if they pay
for hte survey, and if so, the results.
Thanks!

iamaran wrote in message .1.4...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
:

In article ,
iamaran wrote:
Having briefly seen the copper pipe (in two parts) it
just seemed to have been pushed together without any joining material.
But I am no expert.

Not trying to be clever, but are you sure it is copper? Early push fit
stuff was often copper coloured...


Could well have been something else copper-coloured.
Does it make a difference to their explanation?

How much hassle would it be to get your own surveyor in to have a
proper look...
they might have to lift floor boards to see what possible damage there
has been, or maybe even cctv like they do in drains?

I wouldn't trust the opinions of the Company people because they have
a vested interest in fobbing you off....if this was only a few days
problem then ok, but not for months.

How much crawl space is there?...just a few inches or do you have an
access hatch?

Personally my worry would be on two parts...
1) all that water could easily find its way onto supporting brickwork
and then into your timber.
2) the food particles will lie on top, rot, and as said before
increase the chances of some creepy little things coming to have a
holiday with you.

let us know the outcome. I think we'd all be intersted to hear if they
pay for hte survey, and if so, the results.
Thanks!




I sure will.
Thanks everyone.

"iamaran" wrote in message
. 222.120...

let us know the outcome. I think we'd all be intersted to hear if they
pay for hte survey, and if so, the results.
Thanks!




I sure will.
Thanks everyone.
A friend of mine had a similar problem with his bath waste plumbing. Had
problems with his bath emptying excessively slowly, so he filled the bath
and prodded with a drain unblocker and woosh plug unblocked, wonderful.
Suddenly noticed rather a lot of water seeping out from under bath panel.

Anyway removed panel and found a solvent weld joint had never been solvent
welded and prodding it forced it apart. This was in 1990 and bath had been
installed in 1974, according to the invoices and other dated rubbish under
the bath. The helpful plumber had obviously noticed that there was leaking
under the bath and had helpfully installed a pile of folded up card where
the joint had been leaking to soak up the drips !!!.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Lobster wrote:
Its a typical issue when you have plumbers and carpenters working in
tandem. The carpenters rush in and cover up the plumbing before its
finished and the plumbers shrug and have a cup of coffee.

Is it just me, or do most of the tradesmen seem to operate in this
manner; ie not giving a toss about their colleagues in other trades, or
what problems they cause them when they arrive subsequently?

So you want them to hang around - unpaid - because of someone else's cock
up?

Not really what I meant. Here's a few examples off the top of my head,
which will now no doubt get poo-poo'ed line by line... ! These are things
which tradesmen tend to do, or have done on jobs for me, where almost
without exception doing it 'right' takes hardly any extra time, if at all.
Arguably perhaps I should have 'supervised' more closely and specified my
requirements more precisely, but TBH most of these things are just common
sense, and in the realms of telling a tradesman how to do his job, which
doesn't go down terribly well.

- Joiner fixing skirting boards by nailing downwards through the (obviously
still loose) floorboards so the electrician can't lift the board again when
he
comes back next day

- Plumber bringing bathroom pipes up the through the floor so close to the
wall that it requires the joiner to carry out considerable unnecessary
surgery on the skirting board when he fits it later.

- Plasterer extending thin layer of finishing plaster over door frame, which
should have been flush with surface of wall after skim plaster was applied;
all needed to be scraped off before joiner fits architrave and decorator
paints.

- Plasterer doesn't apply plaster close enough to the floor, so that when
joiner fits skirtings later he needs to pack out the space behind skirtings
so they fit rigidly, and parallel to the wall.

- Plumber runs series of copper pipes to/from boiler in such a configuration
that it's very awkward to box them in easily and neatly; positioning them
differently - at no different effort or difficulty - would have made
joiner's job far easier

- Joiner positions noggins and studs in a new partition wall arbitrarily,
whereas consideration of the standard sizes of plasterboard to be attached
would have made plasterer's job quicker and saved a bit on plasterboard

- Plasterer filling up empty electrical socket boxes with plaster (as
whinged about by me here before!) or plastering over the edges of existing
flush faceplates so they can't be readily removed again

Any more for any more?!!

David

In message , Lobster
writes
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Lobster wrote:
Its a typical issue when you have plumbers and carpenters working in
tandem. The carpenters rush in and cover up the plumbing before its
finished and the plumbers shrug and have a cup of coffee.

Is it just me, or do most of the tradesmen seem to operate in this
manner; ie not giving a toss about their colleagues in other trades, or
what problems they cause them when they arrive subsequently?

So you want them to hang around - unpaid - because of someone else's cock
up?

Not really what I meant. Here's a few examples off the top of my head,
which will now no doubt get poo-poo'ed line by line... ! These are things
which tradesmen tend to do, or have done on jobs for me, where almost
without exception doing it 'right' takes hardly any extra time, if at all.
Arguably perhaps I should have 'supervised' more closely and specified my
requirements more precisely, but TBH most of these things are just common
sense, and in the realms of telling a tradesman how to do his job, which
doesn't go down terribly well.

- Joiner fixing skirting boards by nailing downwards through the (obviously
still loose) floorboards so the electrician can't lift the board again when
he
comes back next day

- Plumber bringing bathroom pipes up the through the floor so close to the
wall that it requires the joiner to carry out considerable unnecessary
surgery on the skirting board when he fits it later.

- Plasterer extending thin layer of finishing plaster over door frame, which
should have been flush with surface of wall after skim plaster was applied;
all needed to be scraped off before joiner fits architrave and decorator
paints.

- Plasterer doesn't apply plaster close enough to the floor, so that when
joiner fits skirtings later he needs to pack out the space behind skirtings
so they fit rigidly, and parallel to the wall.

- Plumber runs series of copper pipes to/from boiler in such a configuration
that it's very awkward to box them in easily and neatly; positioning them
differently - at no different effort or difficulty - would have made
joiner's job far easier

- Joiner positions noggins and studs in a new partition wall arbitrarily,
whereas consideration of the standard sizes of plasterboard to be attached
would have made plasterer's job quicker and saved a bit on plasterboard

- Plasterer filling up empty electrical socket boxes with plaster (as
whinged about by me here before!) or plastering over the edges of existing
flush faceplates so they can't be readily removed again


Well if you will employ IMM

--
geoff

How much hassle would it be to get your own surveyor in to have a
proper look...
they might have to lift floor boards to see what possible damage there
has been, or maybe even cctv like they do in drains?

I wouldn't trust the opinions of the Company people because they have
a vested interest in fobbing you off....if this was only a few days
problem then ok, but not for months.

How much crawl space is there?...just a few inches or do you have an
access hatch?

Personally my worry would be on two parts...
1) all that water could easily find its way onto supporting brickwork
and then into your timber.
2) the food particles will lie on top, rot, and as said before
increase the chances of some creepy little things coming to have a
holiday with you.




Well, we did get a quantity of sewer flies coming to stay. The "famous
company" paid for pest control. The stuff the pest control guy used could
not be cleaned up for two weeks, so you can imagine the house is in a
pretty awful state.

The pest control firm is coming back today for a repeat visit, also
courtesy of the company. They are also going to pay for the house to be
cleaned top to bottom.

Getting a survey done courtesy of them is proving more difficult but I
shall persevere after we are pest-free. After all, who wants to go down
there at the present time?

Thanks for all your input everyone in what is going to be a long saga I
feel.