Light switch 2 gang both are 2-way.
The stair switch works ok at the top of stairs, at bottom stairs it only
works dependent on the position of the upstair switch.
I opened up and there appears to be a loose wire, can someone please
confirm that the yellow wire is needing reconnected as per image.

https://imgur.com/a/pnUTTWQ

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 10:36:11 +0000, ss wrote:

Light switch 2 gang both are 2-way.
The stair switch works ok at the top of stairs, at bottom stairs it only
works dependent on the position of the upstair switch.
I opened up and there appears to be a loose wire, can someone please
confirm that the yellow wire is needing reconnected as per image.

https://imgur.com/a/pnUTTWQ

No I cannot anyway! Try prayer, or an oija board.

https://circuitdigest.com/sites/defa...ire-method.png

AB

On 27/01/2019 10:36, ss wrote:
Light switch 2 gang both are 2-way.
The stair switch works ok at the top of stairs, at bottom stairs it only
works dependent on the position of the upstair switch.
I opened up and there appears to be a loose wire, can someone please
confirm that the yellow wire is needing reconnected as per image.

https://imgur.com/a/pnUTTWQ
Highly likely especially if there is the end of the broken wire in the
terminal.

Also of course if you get it wrong the cb will ping and there are not that
many choices to try. I know it sounds daft but one has to have fun and you
have also proved the cb works as well!

Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Bob Minchin" wrote in message
...
On 27/01/2019 10:36, ss wrote:
Light switch 2 gang both are 2-way.
The stair switch works ok at the top of stairs, at bottom stairs it only
works dependent on the position of the upstair switch.
I opened up and there appears to be a loose wire, can someone please
confirm that the yellow wire is needing reconnected as per image.

https://imgur.com/a/pnUTTWQ
Highly likely especially if there is the end of the broken wire in the
terminal.

ss wrote:

Light switch 2 gang both are 2-way.
The stair switch works ok at the top of stairs, at bottom stairs it only
works dependent on the position of the upstair switch.
I opened up and there appears to be a loose wire, can someone please
confirm that the yellow wire is needing reconnected as per image.

https://imgur.com/a/pnUTTWQ

Yes. (With a very high degree of probability, and little chance of
harm.)

--

Roger Hayter

Roger Hayter wrote:

ss wrote:

Light switch 2 gang both are 2-way.
The stair switch works ok at the top of stairs, at bottom stairs it only
works dependent on the position of the upstair switch.
I opened up and there appears to be a loose wire, can someone please
confirm that the yellow wire is needing reconnected as per image.

https://imgur.com/a/pnUTTWQ

Yes. (With a very high degree of probability, and little chance of
harm.)

PS And tighten the other five terminal screws while you are there.

--

Roger Hayter

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 10:55:03 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

Also of course if you get it wrong the cb will ping and there are not that
many choices to try. I know it sounds daft but one has to have fun and you
have also proved the cb works as well!

Brian

Er! The cables look like nothing I have seen in a 2 Way switch
arrangement. The fact that one has come adrift means that the whole
caboodle is suspect.

A positive ID for each switch cable wouldn't take long and like PPE
MCB's should be a last resort as regards safety.

If an RCD or Breaker needs testing, keep it at that. Dont test one
unknown against another.

A pretty poor job would be to test the breaker first, then rely on it
for protection. Even worse is combining the two.


No short cuts I'm afraid. Get the meter out and check every terminal
in the process.

AB

If it was working the chances are that it was OK just strange wire or
whatever. Why look for trouble above that which presents itself.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 10:55:03 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

Also of course if you get it wrong the cb will ping and there are not that
many choices to try. I know it sounds daft but one has to have fun and you
have also proved the cb works as well!

Brian

Er! The cables look like nothing I have seen in a 2 Way switch
arrangement. The fact that one has come adrift means that the whole
caboodle is suspect.

A positive ID for each switch cable wouldn't take long and like PPE
MCB's should be a last resort as regards safety.

If an RCD or Breaker needs testing, keep it at that. Dont test one
unknown against another.

A pretty poor job would be to test the breaker first, then rely on it
for protection. Even worse is combining the two.


No short cuts I'm afraid. Get the meter out and check every terminal
in the process.

AB

On Sunday, 27 January 2019 10:36:14 UTC, ss wrote:
Light switch 2 gang both are 2-way.
The stair switch works ok at the top of stairs, at bottom stairs it only
works dependent on the position of the upstair switch.
I opened up and there appears to be a loose wire, can someone please
confirm that the yellow wire is needing reconnected as per image.

https://imgur.com/a/pnUTTWQ

2 way 2 gang switch requires 6 connections, the yellow coming off is certainly the most likely explanation.


NT

On 27/01/2019 11:29, wrote:
On Sunday, 27 January 2019 10:36:14 UTC, ss wrote:
Light switch 2 gang both are 2-way.
The stair switch works ok at the top of stairs, at bottom stairs it only
works dependent on the position of the upstair switch.
I opened up and there appears to be a loose wire, can someone please
confirm that the yellow wire is needing reconnected as per image.

https://imgur.com/a/pnUTTWQ

2 way 2 gang switch requires 6 connections, the yellow coming off is certainly the most likely explanation.


NT

OK now sorted and switch working ok now, it was the yellow wire come loose.

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 11:17:45 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

If it was working the chances are that it was OK just strange wire or
whatever. Why look for trouble above that which presents itself.
Brian

In my early days I ran an MOD NAMAS accredited calibration department.
I used to do audits on the work and being as "hands on" as the rest of
the staff, it was more than just a paperwork excercise.

"insignificant problems" like a screw missing or dessicant that was
past it's best were not in themselves problems. The case would be
secure, the odd bit of damp would have no effect in a lot of the gear.

Those little problems were often very good indicators of something
more serious because the shortcuts would appear in the critical areas
also.

The solution, rejection and a full recal.

A philosophy that has served me very well over the years and prevented
many serious failiures in my other jobs.

I have yet to see anything wrong with my approach. Some work is shoddy
and potentially hazardous because of the location of the wiring I
recently found a lghting cable twisted together and insulated with
Silicone rubber. There were other problems with the same system so it
wasn't too much of a surprise. Removing the plasterboard ceiling to
find it wasn't with the intention of investigating the cable though,
it was for a totally different reason. My risk assessment of the
system did not conclude that removing a ceiling under a flat roof was
going to be worthwhile.

The risks were low, but who's to know what load of flammables might
have been left in the recess.

AB

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 11:32:36 +0000, ss wrote:

On 27/01/2019 11:29, wrote:
On Sunday, 27 January 2019 10:36:14 UTC, ss wrote:
Light switch 2 gang both are 2-way.
The stair switch works ok at the top of stairs, at bottom stairs it only
works dependent on the position of the upstair switch.
I opened up and there appears to be a loose wire, can someone please
confirm that the yellow wire is needing reconnected as per image.

https://imgur.com/a/pnUTTWQ

2 way 2 gang switch requires 6 connections, the yellow coming off is certainly the most likely explanation.


NT

OK now sorted and switch working ok now, it was the yellow wire come loose.

You are not concerned as to why? The yellow wire was just sitting in a
light switch back box, perfectly sound doing it's job, then one day it
falls out.

I must have missed the acceptable time period requirements for cable
retention when I did the 17th :-)

AB

On 27/01/2019 10:46, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 10:36:11 +0000, ss wrote:

Light switch 2 gang both are 2-way.
The stair switch works ok at the top of stairs, at bottom stairs it only
works dependent on the position of the upstair switch.
I opened up and there appears to be a loose wire, can someone please
confirm that the yellow wire is needing reconnected as per image.

https://imgur.com/a/pnUTTWQ

No I cannot anyway! Try prayer, or an oija board.

https://circuitdigest.com/sites/defa...ire-method.png

That is a deprecated way of wiring a two way switched system, and also
as evidenced from the use of 3&E in the OPs photo, not what is being
used here.

The more appropriate diagram would be the second one in this section:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...tching_circuit




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 14:15:40 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 27/01/2019 10:46, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 10:36:11 +0000, ss wrote:

Light switch 2 gang both are 2-way.
The stair switch works ok at the top of stairs, at bottom stairs it only
works dependent on the position of the upstair switch.
I opened up and there appears to be a loose wire, can someone please
confirm that the yellow wire is needing reconnected as per image.

https://imgur.com/a/pnUTTWQ

No I cannot anyway! Try prayer, or an oija board.

https://circuitdigest.com/sites/defa...ire-method.png

That is a deprecated way of wiring a two way switched system, and also
as evidenced from the use of 3&E in the OPs photo, not what is being
used here.

The more appropriate diagram would be the second one in this section:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...tching_circuit

Hard to say how it is wired, I have never seen yellow used in a
lighting circuit, I can only assume the cable was left over after some
ancient three phase control project.

The piccy strongly suggests further investigation is needed, not just
stick the wire in what looks like an appropriate hole and screw it up.

DIY or professional, there should be no uncertainties with electrical
power.

AB

In article ,
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
Hard to say how it is wired, I have never seen yellow used in a
lighting circuit, I can only assume the cable was left over after some
ancient three phase control project.

Triple and earth is often used domestically. Two way lighting circuits and
thermostats. Two lighting circuits on the same switch to the same room,
and so on. Anywhere where it is more economical.

--
*Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 11:32:36 +0000, ss wrote:

On 27/01/2019 11:29, wrote:
On Sunday, 27 January 2019 10:36:14 UTC, ss wrote:
Light switch 2 gang both are 2-way.
The stair switch works ok at the top of stairs, at bottom stairs it only
works dependent on the position of the upstair switch.
I opened up and there appears to be a loose wire, can someone please
confirm that the yellow wire is needing reconnected as per image.

https://imgur.com/a/pnUTTWQ

2 way 2 gang switch requires 6 connections, the yellow coming off is
certainly the most likely explanation.


NT

OK now sorted and switch working ok now, it was the yellow wire come loose.

You are not concerned as to why? The yellow wire was just sitting in a
light switch back box, perfectly sound doing it's job, then one day it
falls out.

I must have missed the acceptable time period requirements for cable
retention when I did the 17th :-)

AB

The wiring regs certainly envisage screw terminals failing, and don't
seem to mandate cable retention in light switches at all.

The contact failed because either;

- it was never screwed up properly (and this would not stop it working
for an uncertain period);

- vibration from switching caused the screw to unscrew;

- or the copper gradually deformed under pressure;


The wire fell out when the switch was opened for examination.

Nothing out of the ordinary.

--

Roger Hayter

In article ,
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 14:15:40 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 27/01/2019 10:46, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 10:36:11 +0000, ss wrote:

Light switch 2 gang both are 2-way.
The stair switch works ok at the top of stairs, at bottom stairs it only
works dependent on the position of the upstair switch.
I opened up and there appears to be a loose wire, can someone please
confirm that the yellow wire is needing reconnected as per image.

https://imgur.com/a/pnUTTWQ

No I cannot anyway! Try prayer, or an oija board.

https://circuitdigest.com/sites/defa...ire-method.png

That is a deprecated way of wiring a two way switched system, and also
as evidenced from the use of 3&E in the OPs photo, not what is being
used here.

The more appropriate diagram would be the second one in this section:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...tching_circuit

Hard to say how it is wired, I have never seen yellow used in a
lighting circuit, I can only assume the cable was left over after some
ancient three phase control project.

the three core (+ECC) cable I bought in about 1980 (for 2way switching of
lights) certainly had yellow as one of its cores. Blue & white for the
other two.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 11:32:36 +0000, ss wrote:

On 27/01/2019 11:29, wrote:
On Sunday, 27 January 2019 10:36:14 UTC, ss wrote:
Light switch 2 gang both are 2-way.
The stair switch works ok at the top of stairs, at bottom stairs it only
works dependent on the position of the upstair switch.
I opened up and there appears to be a loose wire, can someone please
confirm that the yellow wire is needing reconnected as per image.

https://imgur.com/a/pnUTTWQ

2 way 2 gang switch requires 6 connections, the yellow coming off is
certainly the most likely explanation.


NT

OK now sorted and switch working ok now, it was the yellow wire come
loose.

You are not concerned as to why? The yellow wire was just sitting in a
light switch back box, perfectly sound doing it's job, then one day it
falls out.

I must have missed the acceptable time period requirements for cable
retention when I did the 17th :-)

AB

The wiring regs certainly envisage screw terminals failing, and don't
seem to mandate cable retention in light switches at all.

The contact failed because either;

- it was never screwed up properly (and this would not stop it working
for an uncertain period);

met this in our village hall - a professional installation

- vibration from switching caused the screw to unscrew;

met this at home

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

It happens that Roger Hayter formulated :
The contact failed because either;

- it was never screwed up properly (and this would not stop it working
for an uncertain period);

- vibration from switching caused the screw to unscrew;

- or the copper gradually deformed under pressure;

It looks to me as if the copper core failed and snapped, leaving the
copper part still in the terminal. Possibly the installer nicked the
copper as he stripped the insulation and it subsequently snapped. Poor
or careless technique.

The wire fell out when the switch was opened for examination.

Nothing out of the ordinary.


Methinks your approach to electrical work is fundamentally flawed if
you consider cables falling out an "ordinary" event.

AB

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 17:35:06 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

It happens that Roger Hayter formulated :
The contact failed because either;

- it was never screwed up properly (and this would not stop it working
for an uncertain period);

- vibration from switching caused the screw to unscrew;

- or the copper gradually deformed under pressure;

It looks to me as if the copper core failed and snapped, leaving the
copper part still in the terminal. Possibly the installer nicked the
copper as he stripped the insulation and it subsequently snapped. Poor
or careless technique.

Probably repeated in other parts of the installation.

AB

"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 11:17:45 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

If it was working the chances are that it was OK just strange wire or
whatever. Why look for trouble above that which presents itself.
Brian

In my early days I ran an MOD NAMAS accredited calibration department.
I used to do audits on the work and being as "hands on" as the rest of
the staff, it was more than just a paperwork excercise.

"insignificant problems" like a screw missing or dessicant that was
past it's best were not in themselves problems. The case would be
secure, the odd bit of damp would have no effect in a lot of the gear.

Those little problems were often very good indicators of something
more serious because the shortcuts would appear in the critical areas
also.

The solution, rejection and a full recal.

A philosophy that has served me very well over the years and prevented
many serious failiures in my other jobs.

I have yet to see anything wrong with my approach.

Yes, you actually are that stupid. His setup does require 6
wires and clearly the yellow wire had come adrift and all
it needed was to put it back where it had come out of.

Some work is shoddy
and potentially hazardous because of the location of the wiring I
recently found a lghting cable twisted together and insulated with
Silicone rubber. There were other problems with the same system so it
wasn't too much of a surprise. Removing the plasterboard ceiling to
find it wasn't with the intention of investigating the cable though,
it was for a totally different reason. My risk assessment of the
system did not conclude that removing a ceiling under a flat roof was
going to be worthwhile.

In his case there is nothing like that, just one terminal not fully screwed
in.

The risks were low, but who's to know what load of flammables might
have been left in the recess.

Yeah, best to demolish the house and start again on a bare block of land.

"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 11:32:36 +0000, ss wrote:

On 27/01/2019 11:29, wrote:
On Sunday, 27 January 2019 10:36:14 UTC, ss wrote:
Light switch 2 gang both are 2-way.
The stair switch works ok at the top of stairs, at bottom stairs it
only
works dependent on the position of the upstair switch.
I opened up and there appears to be a loose wire, can someone please
confirm that the yellow wire is needing reconnected as per image.

https://imgur.com/a/pnUTTWQ

2 way 2 gang switch requires 6 connections, the yellow coming off is
certainly the most likely explanation.


NT

OK now sorted and switch working ok now, it was the yellow wire come
loose.

You are not concerned as to why? The yellow wire was just sitting in a
light switch back box, perfectly sound doing it's job, then one day it
falls out.

Because that screw had not been fully tightened initially.

I must have missed the acceptable time period requirements for cable
retention when I did the 17th :-)

On 27/01/2019 17:35, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Roger Hayter formulated :
The contact failed because either;

- it was never screwed up properly (and this would not stop it working
for an uncertain* period);

- vibration from switching caused the screw to unscrew;

- or the copper gradually deformed under pressure;

It looks to me as if the copper core failed and snapped, leaving the
copper part still in the terminal. Possibly the installer nicked the
copper as he stripped the insulation and it subsequently snapped. Poor
or careless technique.

Which is what I think has happened, I have checked others at various
times when decorating and always make sure the screws are tight. Other
than that I leave things as they are.
The wiring is probably original from the late 80s when the house was built.

On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 05:40:06 +1100, "Steven" wrote:



"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 11:17:45 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

If it was working the chances are that it was OK just strange wire or
whatever. Why look for trouble above that which presents itself.
Brian

In my early days I ran an MOD NAMAS accredited calibration department.
I used to do audits on the work and being as "hands on" as the rest of
the staff, it was more than just a paperwork excercise.

"insignificant problems" like a screw missing or dessicant that was
past it's best were not in themselves problems. The case would be
secure, the odd bit of damp would have no effect in a lot of the gear.

Those little problems were often very good indicators of something
more serious because the shortcuts would appear in the critical areas
also.

The solution, rejection and a full recal.

A philosophy that has served me very well over the years and prevented
many serious failiures in my other jobs.

I have yet to see anything wrong with my approach.

Yes, you actually are that stupid. His setup does require 6
wires and clearly the yellow wire had come adrift and all
it needed was to put it back where it had come out of.

Some work is shoddy

At least you do seem to have a level of awareness.

Shoddy work can lead to unreliability and danger. There are acceptable
standards to any job, there are no excuses for not adhering to them.



and potentially hazardous because of the location of the wiring I
recently found a lghting cable twisted together and insulated with
Silicone rubber. There were other problems with the same system so it
wasn't too much of a surprise. Removing the plasterboard ceiling to
find it wasn't with the intention of investigating the cable though,
it was for a totally different reason. My risk assessment of the
system did not conclude that removing a ceiling under a flat roof was
going to be worthwhile.

In his case there is nothing like that, just one terminal not fully screwed
in.

If it was a quality job, all the terminals would not be screwed in.

As only one terminal is unscrewed in the system, are we to assume that
Schrodingers pussy tipped the balance?

Quality job or not, every part of that circuit would be checked were I
to have responsibility for the property or work.




The risks were low, but who's to know what load of flammables might
have been left in the recess.

Yeah, best to demolish the house and start again on a bare block of land.

What makes you say that? It's just exaggeration, which is another word
for lying. Are you a Brexiter?

AB

On 27/01/2019 18:40, Steven wrote:


"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 11:17:45 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

If it was working the chances are that it was OK just strange wire or
whatever. Why look for trouble above that which presents itself.
Brian

In my early days I ran an MOD NAMAS accredited calibration department.
I used to do audits on the work and being as "hands on" as the rest of
the staff, it was more than just a paperwork excercise.

"insignificant problems" like a screw missing or dessicant that was
past it's best were not in themselves problems. The case would be
secure, the odd bit of damp would have no effect in a lot of the gear.

Those little problems were often very good indicators of something
more serious because the shortcuts would appear in the critical areas
also.

The solution, rejection and a full recal.

A philosophy that has served me very well over the years and prevented
many serious failiures in my other jobs.

I have yet to see anything wrong with my approach.

Yes, you actually are that stupid. His setup does require 6
wires and clearly the yellow wire had come adrift and all
it needed was to put it back where it had come out of.

Some work is shoddy
and potentially hazardous because of the location of the wiring I
recently found a lghting cable twisted together and insulated with
Silicone rubber. There were other problems with the same system so it
wasn't too much of a surprise. Removing the plasterboard ceiling to
find it wasn't with the intention of investigating the cable though,
it was for a totally different reason. My risk assessment of the
system did not conclude that removing a ceiling under a flat roof was
going to be worthwhile.

In his case there is nothing like that, just one terminal not fully
screwed in.

The risks were low, but who's to know what load of flammables might
have been left in the recess.

Yeah, best to demolish the house and start again on a bare block of land.

I can well imagine AB sucking teeth, shaking head, and advising
homeowner that he really needs to inspect every connection in every
switch, socket etc in the the house else there's a risk of the entire
household (and the neighbours too if there's gas in use) suffering a
fatal accident.



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 18:57:00 +0000, Robin wrote:

On 27/01/2019 18:40, Steven wrote:


"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 11:17:45 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

If it was working the chances are that it was OK just strange wire or
whatever. Why look for trouble above that which presents itself.
Brian

In my early days I ran an MOD NAMAS accredited calibration department.
I used to do audits on the work and being as "hands on" as the rest of
the staff, it was more than just a paperwork excercise.

"insignificant problems" like a screw missing or dessicant that was
past it's best were not in themselves problems. The case would be
secure, the odd bit of damp would have no effect in a lot of the gear.

Those little problems were often very good indicators of something
more serious because the shortcuts would appear in the critical areas
also.

The solution, rejection and a full recal.

A philosophy that has served me very well over the years and prevented
many serious failiures in my other jobs.

I have yet to see anything wrong with my approach.

Yes, you actually are that stupid. His setup does require 6
wires and clearly the yellow wire had come adrift and all
it needed was to put it back where it had come out of.

Some work is shoddy
and potentially hazardous because of the location of the wiring I
recently found a lghting cable twisted together and insulated with
Silicone rubber. There were other problems with the same system so it
wasn't too much of a surprise. Removing the plasterboard ceiling to
find it wasn't with the intention of investigating the cable though,
it was for a totally different reason. My risk assessment of the
system did not conclude that removing a ceiling under a flat roof was
going to be worthwhile.

In his case there is nothing like that, just one terminal not fully
screwed in.

The risks were low, but who's to know what load of flammables might
have been left in the recess.

Yeah, best to demolish the house and start again on a bare block of land.

I can well imagine AB sucking teeth, shaking head, and advising
homeowner that he really needs to inspect every connection in every
switch, socket etc in the the house else there's a risk of the entire
household (and the neighbours too if there's gas in use) suffering a
fatal accident.

I didn't say that. Try to keep to the thread.

AB

"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 14:15:40 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 27/01/2019 10:46, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 10:36:11 +0000, ss wrote:

Light switch 2 gang both are 2-way.
The stair switch works ok at the top of stairs, at bottom stairs it
only
works dependent on the position of the upstair switch.
I opened up and there appears to be a loose wire, can someone please
confirm that the yellow wire is needing reconnected as per image.

https://imgur.com/a/pnUTTWQ

No I cannot anyway! Try prayer, or an oija board.

https://circuitdigest.com/sites/defa...ire-method.png

That is a deprecated way of wiring a two way switched system, and also
as evidenced from the use of 3&E in the OPs photo, not what is being
used here.

The more appropriate diagram would be the second one in this section:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...tching_circuit

Hard to say how it is wired,

But it is clear that 6 wires are involved, so it can't be your config.

I have never seen yellow used in a
lighting circuit, I can only assume the cable was left over after some
ancient three phase control project.

The piccy strongly suggests further investigation is needed, not just
stick the wire in what looks like an appropriate hole and screw it up.

Not when there are 6 wires involved, a common config used in that situation.

DIY or professional, there should be no uncertainties with electrical
power.

There isnt when there are clearly 6 wires involved and one of them
has clearly come adrift from where it would be in a 6 wire config.

On 27/01/2019 11:13, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 10:55:03 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

Also of course if you get it wrong the cb will ping and there are not that
many choices to try. I know it sounds daft but one has to have fun and you
have also proved the cb works as well!

Brian

Er! The cables look like nothing I have seen in a 2 Way switch
arrangement.

But they look like 50% of the thousands of two way switches I have seen.




--
Adam

On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 06:07:06 +1100, "Steven" wrote:



"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 14:15:40 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 27/01/2019 10:46, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 10:36:11 +0000, ss wrote:

Light switch 2 gang both are 2-way.
The stair switch works ok at the top of stairs, at bottom stairs it
only
works dependent on the position of the upstair switch.
I opened up and there appears to be a loose wire, can someone please
confirm that the yellow wire is needing reconnected as per image.

https://imgur.com/a/pnUTTWQ

No I cannot anyway! Try prayer, or an oija board.

https://circuitdigest.com/sites/defa...ire-method.png

That is a deprecated way of wiring a two way switched system, and also
as evidenced from the use of 3&E in the OPs photo, not what is being
used here.

The more appropriate diagram would be the second one in this section:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...tching_circuit

Hard to say how it is wired,

But it is clear that 6 wires are involved, so it can't be your config.

I have never seen yellow used in a
lighting circuit, I can only assume the cable was left over after some
ancient three phase control project.

The piccy strongly suggests further investigation is needed, not just
stick the wire in what looks like an appropriate hole and screw it up.

Not when there are 6 wires involved, a common config used in that situation.

DIY or professional, there should be no uncertainties with electrical
power.

There isnt when there are clearly 6 wires involved and one of them
has clearly come adrift from where it would be in a 6 wire config.

Er, sorry I didn't think it necessary to explain. One two way switch
= 3 wires Two two way switches = six wires, or maybe five and a link.

Anyway if I'm forgiven for my overestimation of your abilities perhaps
you would care to use this.

http://www.math.com/students/calcula...urce/basic.htm

AB

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 19:09:45 +0000, ARW
wrote:

On 27/01/2019 11:13, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 10:55:03 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

Also of course if you get it wrong the cb will ping and there are not that
many choices to try. I know it sounds daft but one has to have fun and you
have also proved the cb works as well!

Brian

Er! The cables look like nothing I have seen in a 2 Way switch
arrangement.

But they look like 50% of the thousands of two way switches I have seen.

RGB?


Ones exposure to domestic wiring is a trifle limited, but I have not
come across those colours in a home before.

Whatever the colour, cables do not just "drop out".

AB

On 27/01/2019 19:20, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 19:09:45 +0000, ARW
wrote:

On 27/01/2019 11:13, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 10:55:03 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

Also of course if you get it wrong the cb will ping and there are not that
many choices to try. I know it sounds daft but one has to have fun and you
have also proved the cb works as well!

Brian

Er! The cables look like nothing I have seen in a 2 Way switch
arrangement.

But they look like 50% of the thousands of two way switches I have seen.

RGB?


Ones exposure to domestic wiring is a trifle limited, but I have not
come across those colours in a home before.

Whatever the colour, cables do not just "drop out".



RYB.

I did not watch them on TV.


--
Adam

"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 17:35:06 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

It happens that Roger Hayter formulated :
The contact failed because either;

- it was never screwed up properly (and this would not stop it working
for an uncertain period);

- vibration from switching caused the screw to unscrew;

- or the copper gradually deformed under pressure;

It looks to me as if the copper core failed and snapped, leaving the
copper part still in the terminal. Possibly the installer nicked the
copper as he stripped the insulation and it subsequently snapped. Poor
or careless technique.

Probably repeated in other parts of the installation.

But it isn't actually viable to completely redo all the terminals in the
entire house now. Given that the wiring standards are fail safe by
design, it make more sense to fix any others that do fail when they do.

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 19:36:25 +0000, ARW
wrote:

On 27/01/2019 19:20, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 19:09:45 +0000, ARW
wrote:

On 27/01/2019 11:13, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 10:55:03 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

Also of course if you get it wrong the cb will ping and there are not that
many choices to try. I know it sounds daft but one has to have fun and you
have also proved the cb works as well!

Brian

Er! The cables look like nothing I have seen in a 2 Way switch
arrangement.

But they look like 50% of the thousands of two way switches I have seen.

RGB?


Ones exposure to domestic wiring is a trifle limited, but I have not
come across those colours in a home before.

Whatever the colour, cables do not just "drop out".



RYB.

I did not watch them on TV.

I stand corrected. Apologies, although I must admit I saw the insides
of a lot more TV sets than light switches :-)

What happens if the phases are switched, does the room go darker in
the daytime?

AB

"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 05:40:06 +1100, "Steven" wrote:



"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 11:17:45 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

If it was working the chances are that it was OK just strange wire or
whatever. Why look for trouble above that which presents itself.
Brian

In my early days I ran an MOD NAMAS accredited calibration department.
I used to do audits on the work and being as "hands on" as the rest of
the staff, it was more than just a paperwork excercise.

"insignificant problems" like a screw missing or dessicant that was
past it's best were not in themselves problems. The case would be
secure, the odd bit of damp would have no effect in a lot of the gear.

Those little problems were often very good indicators of something
more serious because the shortcuts would appear in the critical areas
also.

The solution, rejection and a full recal.

A philosophy that has served me very well over the years and prevented
many serious failiures in my other jobs.

I have yet to see anything wrong with my approach.

Yes, you actually are that stupid. His setup does require 6
wires and clearly the yellow wire had come adrift and all
it needed was to put it back where it had come out of.

Some work is shoddy

At least you do seem to have a level of awareness.

Shoddy work can lead to unreliability and danger. There are acceptable
standards to any job, there are no excuses for not adhering to them.



and potentially hazardous because of the location of the wiring I
recently found a lghting cable twisted together and insulated with
Silicone rubber. There were other problems with the same system so it
wasn't too much of a surprise. Removing the plasterboard ceiling to
find it wasn't with the intention of investigating the cable though,
it was for a totally different reason. My risk assessment of the
system did not conclude that removing a ceiling under a flat roof was
going to be worthwhile.

In his case there is nothing like that, just one terminal not fully
screwed
in.

If it was a quality job, all the terminals would not be screwed in.

As only one terminal is unscrewed in the system, are we to assume that
Schrodingers pussy tipped the balance?

Quality job or not, every part of that circuit would be checked were I
to have responsibility for the property or work.

Yes, you actually are stupid enough to redo every single termination in
the entire house to ensure that no other wire was nicked at installation.

The risks were low, but who's to know what load of flammables might
have been left in the recess.

Yeah, best to demolish the house and start again on a bare block of land.

What makes you say that? It's just exaggeration, which is another word
for lying. Are you a Brexiter?

AB

"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 18:57:00 +0000, Robin wrote:

On 27/01/2019 18:40, Steven wrote:


"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 11:17:45 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

If it was working the chances are that it was OK just strange wire or
whatever. Why look for trouble above that which presents itself.
Brian

In my early days I ran an MOD NAMAS accredited calibration department.
I used to do audits on the work and being as "hands on" as the rest of
the staff, it was more than just a paperwork excercise.

"insignificant problems" like a screw missing or dessicant that was
past it's best were not in themselves problems. The case would be
secure, the odd bit of damp would have no effect in a lot of the gear.

Those little problems were often very good indicators of something
more serious because the shortcuts would appear in the critical areas
also.

The solution, rejection and a full recal.

A philosophy that has served me very well over the years and prevented
many serious failiures in my other jobs.

I have yet to see anything wrong with my approach.

Yes, you actually are that stupid. His setup does require 6
wires and clearly the yellow wire had come adrift and all
it needed was to put it back where it had come out of.

Some work is shoddy
and potentially hazardous because of the location of the wiring I
recently found a lghting cable twisted together and insulated with
Silicone rubber. There were other problems with the same system so it
wasn't too much of a surprise. Removing the plasterboard ceiling to
find it wasn't with the intention of investigating the cable though,
it was for a totally different reason. My risk assessment of the
system did not conclude that removing a ceiling under a flat roof was
going to be worthwhile.

In his case there is nothing like that, just one terminal not fully
screwed in.

The risks were low, but who's to know what load of flammables might
have been left in the recess.

Yeah, best to demolish the house and start again on a bare block of
land.

I can well imagine AB sucking teeth, shaking head, and advising
homeowner that he really needs to inspect every connection in every
switch, socket etc in the the house else there's a risk of the entire
household (and the neighbours too if there's gas in use) suffering a
fatal accident.

I didn't say that.

Yes you did, just a moment ago, to me.

Quality job or not, every part of that circuit would be checked
were I to have responsibility for the property or work.

And don't try claiming that that says circuit, because the
same argument applies to every circuit in the entire house.

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:



The wire fell out when the switch was opened for examination.

Nothing out of the ordinary.


Methinks your approach to electrical work is fundamentally flawed if
you consider cables falling out an "ordinary" event.

AB

I hope none of the high-integrity equipment you inspected contained
screw terminals. They are not reliable.

--

Roger Hayter

On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 06:43:14 +1100, "Steven" wrote:



"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 17:35:06 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

It happens that Roger Hayter formulated :
The contact failed because either;

- it was never screwed up properly (and this would not stop it working
for an uncertain period);

- vibration from switching caused the screw to unscrew;

- or the copper gradually deformed under pressure;

It looks to me as if the copper core failed and snapped, leaving the
copper part still in the terminal. Possibly the installer nicked the
copper as he stripped the insulation and it subsequently snapped. Poor
or careless technique.

Probably repeated in other parts of the installation.

But it isn't actually viable to completely redo all the terminals in the
entire house now. Given that the wiring standards are fail safe by
design, it make more sense to fix any others that do fail when they do.

You steamin' great pillock! Fail safe by design?? No such bloody
thing unless you are working to ATEX standards.

Have you seen a glass rod conduct electricity to the point where it
melts and arcs.

Have you examined insulation that has been drenched and suddenly
become conductive.

Wothout an earth path the MCB has no clue whether the couple of kW is
a genuine heating element or a L-N leakage path.

Likewise although a switch alone is perfectly capable of providing an
audio visual indication of a gas build up, a loose connection will
give the indication a lot earlier and with a higher level of success.

AB

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 19:59:13 +0000, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:



The wire fell out when the switch was opened for examination.

Nothing out of the ordinary.


Methinks your approach to electrical work is fundamentally flawed if
you consider cables falling out an "ordinary" event.

AB

I hope none of the high-integrity equipment you inspected contained
screw terminals. They are not reliable.

So I believe!

To be honest though, although having seen the youtube video of various
connectors being tested to destruction, the new Wago style connectors
dont fill me with confidence. One cannot dispute the evidence and
documentation though, but I don't feel absolutely confident using
Wagos.

I think for the time being I'll stick to JB's. I really do like the
challenge of trying to match the holes to the cables in those round
boxes.


Come to think of it, a 30A JB was not included in the test to
destruction. I would guess that the cables would go first.


AB

"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 06:43:14 +1100, "Steven" wrote:



"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 17:35:06 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

It happens that Roger Hayter formulated :
The contact failed because either;

- it was never screwed up properly (and this would not stop it working
for an uncertain period);

- vibration from switching caused the screw to unscrew;

- or the copper gradually deformed under pressure;

It looks to me as if the copper core failed and snapped, leaving the
copper part still in the terminal. Possibly the installer nicked the
copper as he stripped the insulation and it subsequently snapped. Poor
or careless technique.

Probably repeated in other parts of the installation.

But it isn't actually viable to completely redo all the terminals in the
entire house now. Given that the wiring standards are fail safe by
design, it make more sense to fix any others that do fail when they do.

You steamin' great pillock! Fail safe by design?? No such bloody
thing unless you are working to ATEX standards.

Have you seen a glass rod conduct electricity to the point where it
melts and arcs.

Doesn't happen in the sort of house the fault was in.

Have you examined insulation that has been drenched and suddenly
become conductive.

The RCBO system fails safe in that situation.

Wothout an earth path the MCB has no clue whether the couple of kW is
a genuine heating element or a L-N leakage path.

Isnt going to happen with that 2 way light switch circuit.

Likewise although a switch alone is perfectly capable of providing an
audio visual indication of a gas build up, a loose connection will
give the indication a lot earlier and with a higher level of success.

Yeah, yeah, the entire house should be completely rewired now that that
one wire was clearly not as competently done as it should have been.

Easy to see why no one would employ you in britain and you had to
move to ireland and then even they noticed how unemployable you are.