In article ,
TMS320 wrote:
Turning off the ignition will turn off electric power steering. Not what
you want to add to your list of surprises.

You can still steer the car with no power assistance. It will just be
heavier. But not so heavy you can't steer it to the side of the road. And
far safer than trying to stop the car on the brakes while on full power.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Nick Finnigan wrote:
On 22/07/2018 22:11, NY wrote:
This question was posed in a video reconstruction of an incident in the US.

You were offered three choices:

- yank on the handbrake
- put the car in neutral
- turn off the ignition

The "correct" answer was to put the car in neutral. Turning off the engine
would lock the steering. Pulling on the handbrake would lock the rear
wheels.

I'm not sure I agree with their answer.

It might be the correct first action with a US slushbox.

Not so - the engine will be turned by the car moving with an auto until
the speed gets pretty low.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
GB wrote:
On 22/07/2018 22:11, NY wrote:

I put it down to bad clutch/accelerator coordination. When it happened
again
as I changed to fourth, I realised it wasn't - especially as the car shot
forward like a scalded cat.

I once went for a test drive in a Honda NSX supercar. Cruising along
the motorway at a bit over 70, we came to some slower traffic, so I
prudently decided to change from 6th gear into 4th. It's quite a narrow
gate on the NSX, and I mostly drove automatic at the time, so I was
quite out of practice.

The effect of going directly from 6th to 2nd at that speed is not
catastrophic. It's a very finely engineered car. The engine is very
responsive, and it makes an impressive noise when taken well over the
red line in that way.

I'd be most surprised if a 'supercar' was over the engine rev limit at 70
mph in second gear.

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Dave Plowman London SW
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"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
One thing I found confusing was that in the US you are meant to cross yuor
arms when sterring and you'd fail the test if you arms didn't cross,
whereas in the UK you are meant to keep the 10:2 and you are meant to
shuffle the hands while turning the steering wheel.

I didn't know that. I'd fail then, because I was taught the 10-to-2 way for
the normal test, then got into bad habits and had it drummed out of me a
second time when I took my IAM advanced test. I now mostly keep my hands in
their own half (ie not going past the 12 o clock position), apart from when
manoeuvring in a confined space at very low speed. For most normal driving
(eg at 90 degree junctions) I move one hand from 12 to 6 or 6 to 12 and then
let the other hand take over for the continuing movement (eg 12 to 6
clockwise with right hand, then 6 to 12 clockwise with left hand). I tend to
go for the smallest number of big movements - rather a larger number of
smaller movements, which is what driving schools sometimes (used to) teach.

I know some US cars have a knob on the rim of the steering wheel which you
are supposed to use to turn it when manoeuvring.

The one thing I never do is the "mechanic's grip" with the hand facing palm
towards me on the opposite side of the wheel eg left hand at 2 o clock with
thumb facing towards 12 o clock and wrist roughly above the centre of the
wheel.

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
news
Why use the handbrake at all, if the footbrake is still working fine?

Although you say below the car has no brake servo, I was thinking to
compensate for the loss of the brake servo vacuum with the ign off.

I think very car I've drive with servo brakes, the footbrake has worked far
better even with no servo than that handbrake as a means of slowing the car
down, as opposed to holding it when it's already stationary.


I don't know how fast an engine might turn if all the mechanical load is
removed at full throttle, and how much extra load this would place on the
con rods. Modern cars with fuel injection and and ECU would almost
certainly have a rev limiter. But the car I was driving was much older
than that, with a carburettor, so there would be no limit to the engine
speed, other than normal engine friction and the maximum fuel flow that
the carb could manage.

If the car is in neutral it won't lock the wheels.

I was thinking more of simply pressing the clutch - easier to do without
taking hands off the wheel while trying to steer round objects ahead, rather
than trying to find neutral in the heat of the moment.

If you just turned off the engine on a manual, in neutral, then turn ign
on, you could steer without power steering and have basic brakes.

As it happens, the car no PAS and no servo brakes, so neither would have
suffered.

There can't be many of those around.

No. This was 40 years ago on my mum's Renault 6.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
NY wrote:
This question was posed in a video reconstruction of an incident in the
US.

You were offered three choices:

- yank on the handbrake
- put the car in neutral
- turn off the ignition

The "correct" answer was to put the car in neutral. Turning off the
engine would lock the steering. Pulling on the handbrake would lock the
rear wheels.

Total ********.

The steering doesn't lock until the key is removed.

No handbrake will lock the wheels while the car in is gear.

With a FWD car, where it's the front wheels, rather than the handbraked rear
wheels that are being driven, I can imagine that a really fierce handbrake
(which I've never actually encountered) or a really hard yank on the lever
could brake the rear wheels while the front wheels are still being driven
onwards by the engine. So there is potential for rear wheel skid. As you
say, unlikely with most cars' puny handbrakes compared with footbrake with
its servo not working because you've turned the engine off.

The answer is to turn off the ignition, but not remove the key. Leave the
car in gear. You will still have steering and brakes.

Exactly.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:
all the cars I had for decades* DO lock the steering with key in. I
gather many don't now.

Care to name the make and model? I've had lots of old cars. None *ever*
locked the steering until the key was removed. Including the very first
one I had which had been fitted with an aftermarket steering lock in the
60s.

I'd be interested too. I instinctively turned the key just to Accessory, *in
case* the steering lock engaged with the key in the off position, but I'm
sure it was an unnecessary precaution: when I checked afterwards, the key
had to be removed for the wheel to lock.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Monday, 23 July 2018 09:31:45 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 22/07/2018 22:52, Chris Bartram wrote:
On 22/07/18 22:11, NY wrote:
This question was posed in a video reconstruction of an incident in
the US.

You were offered three choices:

- yank on the handbrake
- put the car in neutral
- turn off the ignition

The "correct" answer was to put the car in neutral. Turning off the
engine
would lock the steering. Pulling on the handbrake would lock the rear
wheels.

I'm not sure I agree with their answer.

I had this very thing happen to me - when I was learning to drive. I
was
going up a steep hill so I was in a low gear with the engine going
quickly.
When I got to the top and changed from second to third, the engine
raced but
I put it down to bad clutch/accelerator coordination. When it happened
again
as I changed to fourth, I realised it wasn't - especially as the car
shot
forward like a scalded cat.

I realised what had happened very quickly and also knew what would
happen if
I pressed the clutch or put the car into neutral, which was my first
instinct: the engine would race very quickly and if it went well over
the
redline speed, it could well throw a piston which would be very bad
news if
all that fast-moving metal came to rest in an instant.

So somehow I managed very calmly to turn the ignition just far enough
to
kill the engine by putting it into the accessory position without
turning
all the way off. Had I been travelling "at 120 mph with the engine
redlining" (as it said int he video) it might have been a *little*
more
difficult to turn it just the right amount. ;-)

Am I right that the last thing you want to do is let the engine
greatly
exceed its redline speed and risk it seizing up (I'm assuming that the
car
is old enough not to have a rev-limiter)? Do any steering locks
actually
lock the steering while the key is still in, even in the off position?
I
thought it only locked when the key was removed - for this very
reason, so
you can safely turn off the engine in the event of an emergency.

Discuss...
Turning the engine off doesn't lock steering. That only happens when
removing the key.

Vehicles vary, so the answer may depend upon what you are driving at the
time.

I thought automatics and manual cars were differnt in what you should do,
in america perhaps they assume you are driving a automatic.

One thing I found confusing was that in the US
you are meant to cross yuor arms when sterring
and you'd fail the test if you arms didn't cross,

Thats not correct.

whereas in the UK you are meant to keep the 10:2 and you are
meant to shuffle the hands while turning the steering wheel.

Thats not correct either when parking or doing 3 point turns.

Keyless start works differently, for example. Also some don't have
a hand brake - only a switch operated parking brake. Putting it into
neutral and slowing with the foot brake is about the only thing
guaranteed to work on all cars.

NY wrote:
This question was posed in a video reconstruction of an incident in the US.

You were offered three choices:

- yank on the handbrake
- put the car in neutral
- turn off the ignition

The "correct" answer was to put the car in neutral. Turning off the engine
would lock the steering. Pulling on the handbrake would lock the rear
wheels.

On Citroens (others maybe?) the handbrake works on the front wheels.

--
Chris Green
·

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
TMS320 wrote:
Turning off the ignition will turn off electric power steering. Not what
you want to add to your list of surprises.

You can still steer the car with no power assistance. It will just be
heavier. But not so heavy you can't steer it to the side of the road. And
far safer than trying to stop the car on the brakes while on full power.

Yes I've driven my car a couple of miles, including changing lanes, coming
off a motorway and going round a roundabout, with no PAS when the fan belt
broke. It was heavy. I had to plan ahead and grip the wheel with both hands
to get more torque on the wheel, but it was not insurmountable. I wouldn't
like to try it in a coach or HGV, though :-)

Is the heaviness of the steering when PAS is disabled due solely to having
to compress the PAS fluid on the "wrong" side of the piston that gives power
assistance? Or are cars with PAS made with inherently heavier steering
(different castor angle) to give greater precision and feedback to the
driver, in the knowledge that the PAS will more than compensate for this
heavier (but more responsive, more self-centring) steering. I've heard two
schools of thought about this.

On 23/07/2018 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
GB wrote:
On 22/07/2018 22:11, NY wrote:

I put it down to bad clutch/accelerator coordination. When it happened
again
as I changed to fourth, I realised it wasn't - especially as the car shot
forward like a scalded cat.

I once went for a test drive in a Honda NSX supercar. Cruising along
the motorway at a bit over 70, we came to some slower traffic, so I
prudently decided to change from 6th gear into 4th. It's quite a narrow
gate on the NSX, and I mostly drove automatic at the time, so I was
quite out of practice.

The effect of going directly from 6th to 2nd at that speed is not
catastrophic. It's a very finely engineered car. The engine is very
responsive, and it makes an impressive noise when taken well over the
red line in that way.

I'd be most surprised if a 'supercar' was over the engine rev limit at 70
mph in second gear.

"a bit over 70" - geddit?

This is for the US/Japanese version of the car:
https://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Gear_Ratios

"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
NY wrote:
This question was posed in a video reconstruction of an incident in the
US.

You were offered three choices:

- yank on the handbrake
- put the car in neutral
- turn off the ignition

The "correct" answer was to put the car in neutral. Turning off the
engine
would lock the steering. Pulling on the handbrake would lock the rear
wheels.

On Citroens (others maybe?) the handbrake works on the front wheels.

Good point. I'd forgotten that. My dad had a couple of Citroen GSs and he
said the garage always cursed if they needed to change the discs because
they are mounted on the half shafts close to the gearbox rather than next to
the hubs, which made it a bigger job.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 10:43:37 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

No handbrake will lock the wheels while the car in is gear.

Must have had pretty poor hand (parking..) brakes on your cars. You
really didn't want to pull the handbrake on hard in the Dicoverys
(but then it's a transmission brake not at the wheel(s). The mondeo
would lock up no problems. The current Freelander has an electronic
hand brake and IIRC the handbook says nasty things are likely to
happen if you manually switch it on when in motion. Most of the time
you have no need to touch the parking brake switch, it looks after
it, including hill starts.

The answer is to turn off the ignition, but not remove the key. Leave
the car in gear. You will still have steering and brakes.

No key, just a button "Engine Start/Stop", there is a steering lock.

Think I'd just push hard on the foot brake with the car in a high
gear and stall it.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 22/07/2018 23:50, NY wrote:
"Brian Reay" wrote in message
news
You could use the handbrake partially, ie not full on.

Why use the handbrake at all, if the footbrake is still working fine?

Over reving the engine is the lesser of the evils compared to a high
speed collision.

I was thinking in terms of a con rod breaking which would probably seize
the crankshaft which would be bad news with the energy of the large mass
of the flywheel having to be dissipated very rapidly as it came to rest,
possibly locking the transmission (even with the slight clearance of a
clutch pedal being pressed) and hence the wheels.

I don't know how fast an engine might turn if all the mechanical load is
removed at full throttle, and how much extra load this would place on
the con rods. Modern cars with fuel injection and and ECU would almost
certainly have a rev limiter. But the car I was driving was much older
than that, with a carburettor, so there would be no limit to the engine
speed, other than normal engine friction and the maximum fuel flow that
the carb could manage.

Obviously it depends on the engine, but most overhead valve engines had
a sufficiently heavy valve train that valve bounce would seriously
interfere with beathing and limit revs. I am aware of a 1300 Ford Escort
where after a prang had the throttle jammed. It wouldn't restart. The
valves had touched the pistons and bent. No other damage and worked fine
after the valves were replaced.

An old Mini engine above certain revs would make a characteristic
clatter, above which there was literally no power and the engine would
simply sit there at around 5-6,000rpm.

As soon as ignition modules came onto the market they inherently would
incorporate a rev-limiter. There were some aftermarket rev limiters you
could add to the old contact style ignition system.

"Fredxx" wrote in message
news
I am aware of a 1300 Ford Escort where after a prang had the throttle
jammed. It wouldn't restart. The valves had touched the pistons and bent.
No other damage and worked fine after the valves were replaced.

Hmm. They were lucky the valves didn't punch a hole through the pistons.

I remember my garage warning me with my first diesel car that it was an
"interference engine" - ie the valves occupied the same space as the top of
the piston, though at different points in the cycle. Consequently it was
even more important than normal for the timing belt to be changed at the
manufacturer's stated intervals, in case it snapped and the pistons and
valves collided. The garage also advised with my present car that they
should change the water pump (driven off the timing belt) while they were
replacing the belt, even if it seemed fine, so as to not incur a second
engine removal cost if the pump should subsequently fail. The extra cost of
a pump that may or may not need replacement was peanuts compared with the
labour of making the timing belt accessible - so kill two birds with one
stone.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 09:18:19 +0100, NY wrote:

I wouldn't dare to apply the handbrake on my old Land Rover.
Transmission brake!

Sounds as if the Land Rover is an exception to the rule that the
handbrake operates the same pads as the footbrake except by mechanical
rather than hydraulic means.

This was a 1952 Series I, not sure when that changed later - but not for
quite a few years.

The handbrake (lever just behind the driver's left leg) operated a short
linkage to a dedicated drum brake on the back of the gearboxes (there
were two, the normal one and the transfer box). Bloody fierce.

Why would it matter whether the brake was at the wheels or further back
in the transmission itself - assuming that it is still a pad rubbing on
a disc or drum.

Some mechanical advantage, and a bloody big drum.

Does the presence of the differential affect things (assuming they have
not been set to the locked position): would it tend to brake some wheels
more than others, thus causing the car to spin, if you were on slippery
ground?

Quite possibly. This didn't have fancy stuff such as lockable or limited
slip diff!

It was a *very* good brake. When I was at uni, I had this Series I. It
was habit among my circle, if boxed in, to inch up to the next vehicle
and gently push it against the effect of the handbrake. Those who tried
it on my LR just saw the car crumple.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
It was a *very* good brake. When I was at uni, I had this Series I. It
was habit among my circle, if boxed in, to inch up to the next vehicle
and gently push it against the effect of the handbrake. Those who tried
it on my LR just saw the car crumple.

I gather that it used to be the convention in French cities (especially
Paris) for drivers to park (on the level) with the car in neutral and the
handbrake off, to allow other cars to nudge them if they needed more space
when parking, and that people who didn't obey this "courtesy" were liable to
find their car dented when someone increased the force until something
gave - either your handbrake or your bodywork/bumpers.

NY submitted this idea :
Am I right that the last thing you want to do is let the engine greatly
exceed its redline speed and risk it seizing up (I'm assuming that the car
is old enough not to have a rev-limiter)? Do any steering locks actually
lock the steering while the key is still in, even in the off position? I
thought it only locked when the key was removed - for this very reason, so
you can safely turn off the engine in the event of an emergency.

A modern engine under ecu control will not exceed the redline, unless
there is some outside influence.

The outside influence being either going down a very steep hill and
heavily laden, or a diesel engine which has begun running out of
control on its sump oil. Ignition switched to accessory (I) should work
to kill the power from the engine, apart from a run away diesel. Hard
on the footbrake should slow the car plus engine down.

If in the case of a run away diesel engine you cannot slow down enough,
clutch down, into neutral brake and let the engine self destruct.

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
NY submitted this idea :
Am I right that the last thing you want to do is let the engine greatly
exceed its redline speed and risk it seizing up (I'm assuming that the
car
is old enough not to have a rev-limiter)? Do any steering locks actually
lock the steering while the key is still in, even in the off position? I
thought it only locked when the key was removed - for this very reason,
so
you can safely turn off the engine in the event of an emergency.

A modern engine under ecu control will not exceed the redline, unless
there is some outside influence.

The outside influence being either going down a very steep hill and
heavily laden, or a diesel engine which has begun running out of control
on its sump oil. Ignition switched to accessory (I) should work to kill
the power from the engine, apart from a run away diesel. Hard on the
footbrake should slow the car plus engine down.

If in the case of a run away diesel engine you cannot slow down enough,
clutch down, into neutral brake and let the engine self destruct.

How would the sump oil find its way into the cylinder? Via leaky piston
rings? I presume top gear and hard on footbrake *should* stall the engine.

In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
Although you say below the car has no brake servo, I was thinking to
compensate for the loss of the brake servo vacuum with the ign off.

Turning off the ignition doesn't stop the brake vacuum servo working. That
will continue to work while the engine turns. Which will be as long as the
car is moving, if left in gear.

--
*If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
NY wrote:
Is the heaviness of the steering when PAS is disabled due solely to
having to compress the PAS fluid on the "wrong" side of the piston that
gives power assistance? Or are cars with PAS made with inherently
heavier steering (different castor angle) to give greater precision and
feedback to the driver, in the knowledge that the PAS will more than
compensate for this heavier (but more responsive, more self-centring)
steering. I've heard two schools of thought about this.

I've driven quite a few cars of the same make and model fitted with both
manual and power steering. And the effort needed on a broken power
steering one is way higher than the manual one. Making me think the
hydraulics or whatever must introduce a lot of friction.

--
*Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

NY explained on 23/07/2018 :
How would the sump oil find its way into the cylinder? Via leaky piston
rings? I presume top gear and hard on footbrake *should* stall the engine.

There are various ways for the engine oil to get into the combustion
chamber, there are numerous examples on Youtube of runaway diesel
engines. Some have even tried to use it as an excuse for speeding for
tens of miles. The footbrake certainly 'should' be able to stall the
engine, the engine will have much less power available than normal.

In article ,
GB wrote:
I'd be most surprised if a 'supercar' was over the engine rev limit at 70
mph in second gear.

"a bit over 70" - geddit?

I'd not get driving a car you don't know how to at those sort of speeds,
no. ;-)

--
*What was the best thing before sliced bread?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 10:43:37 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

No handbrake will lock the wheels while the car in is gear.

Must have had pretty poor hand (parking..) brakes on your cars. You
really didn't want to pull the handbrake on hard in the Dicoverys
(but then it's a transmission brake not at the wheel(s).

Yes - and quite likely break the transmission in the process.


The mondeo
would lock up no problems.

Of course - a FWD with the handbrake on the rear wheels so with as little
grip as possible due to the weight being over the fronts. Forgot about
those.


The current Freelander has an electronic
hand brake and IIRC the handbook says nasty things are likely to
happen if you manually switch it on when in motion. Most of the time
you have no need to touch the parking brake switch, it looks after
it, including hill starts.

The answer is to turn off the ignition, but not remove the key. Leave
the car in gear. You will still have steering and brakes.

No key, just a button "Engine Start/Stop", there is a steering lock.

Think I'd just push hard on the foot brake with the car in a high
gear and stall it.

Going to take a lot longer to stop it if you don't kill the engine first.
But dunno these push button systems - are you saying it won't kill the
engine on the move?

My car, which is an auto, will kill engine power if you stand on the
brakes and throttle at the same time. Don't ask how I know this. ;-)

--
*Where do forest rangers go to "get away from it all?"

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
The handbrake (lever just behind the driver's left leg) operated a short
linkage to a dedicated drum brake on the back of the gearboxes (there
were two, the normal one and the transfer box). Bloody fierce.

Yup - that's because of the gearing between wheels and propshaft. Very
much to the advantage of that drum brake.

--
*Why do they put Braille on the drive-through bank machines?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
NY explained on 23/07/2018 :
How would the sump oil find its way into the cylinder? Via leaky piston
rings? I presume top gear and hard on footbrake *should* stall the
engine.

There are various ways for the engine oil to get into the combustion
chamber, there are numerous examples on Youtube of runaway diesel engines.
Some have even tried to use it as an excuse for speeding for tens of
miles. The footbrake certainly 'should' be able to stall the engine, the
engine will have much less power available than normal.

I've vague memories of something my dad told me long time ago. He was first
on the scene at a lorry accident (fortunately no-one was hurt) and he tried
to turn off the lorry's engine at the ignition key. It carried on going. The
driver told him to pull a lever somewhere and there was a lot of hissing and
spluttering and the engine gradually stopped. Now the obvious thing that a
lever would operate would be a fuel shutoff that was independent of the
solenoid that was kept open by the ignition switch, but that doesn't match
the hissing and spluttering. It make me wonder whether some lorries had a
means of venting the cylinders to the atmosphere as a crude way of breaking
the cycle and stalling the engine - maybe by holding the exhaust valve open
during the compression and power stroke to avoid the compression ignition.

Was that ever done as a way of stalling an engine to turn it off. It would
have been in the late 60s, so whatever technology (mechanical fuel pump and
injectors) was around at the time. Not sure whether it was 2-stroke (eg
Commer "Knocker") or 4-stroke.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
NY wrote:
Is the heaviness of the steering when PAS is disabled due solely to
having to compress the PAS fluid on the "wrong" side of the piston that
gives power assistance? Or are cars with PAS made with inherently
heavier steering (different castor angle) to give greater precision and
feedback to the driver, in the knowledge that the PAS will more than
compensate for this heavier (but more responsive, more self-centring)
steering. I've heard two schools of thought about this.

I've driven quite a few cars of the same make and model fitted with both
manual and power steering. And the effort needed on a broken power
steering one is way higher than the manual one. Making me think the
hydraulics or whatever must introduce a lot of friction.

Yes I test-drove two VW Golfs that were supposedly identical part from one
having PAS. I found that the one with PAS was a lot easier to keep the wheel
at a non-straight ahead position on a bend (there was less self-centring)
which surprised me as I was expecting the PAS to give greater assistance to
return the wheel to straight ahead. But when I happened to turn off the
ignition just before the car had come to rest, there was immediately a very
strong force trying to centre the wheels.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Dave Plowman wrote:

No handbrake will lock the wheels while the car in is gear.

Must have had pretty poor hand (parking..) brakes on your cars.

The electric parking brake on mine is a toggle switch, push
on-/push-off, if you push it while moving nothing happens, but if you
pull it while moving it will plant your nose into the windscreen ...

Not that I'm likely to stop to think "now, which switch do I pull?"
rather than just stomping on the footbrake.

NY used his keyboard to write :
Was that ever done as a way of stalling an engine to turn it off. It would
have been in the late 60s, so whatever technology (mechanical fuel pump and
injectors) was around at the time. Not sure whether it was 2-stroke (eg
Commer "Knocker") or 4-stroke.

Certainly the had cranked static diesels of the era, had a lever to
release the compression, so the could be cranked over. You moved the
lever, cranked up to speed then released the lever to hopefully have it
fire up. Possibly lorries had a similar device too, to allow the
starter to crank the engine over. Called a 'valve lifter' I think (?)..

Such a lever would stop a runaway diesel engine, if used on all
cylinders.

On 23/07/2018 14:38, NY wrote:


How would the sump oil find its way into the cylinder? Via leaky piston
rings? I presume top gear and hard on footbrake *should* stall the engine.

Often past failed turbo seals.

Jimbo in Bracknell .... wrote:
could be worse....you could have had a chevy Nova when a engine mount
broke the engine smashed the power brakes and pulled the accelerator
cable giving full throttle......see the world in a chevy nova .....

New Vauxhall Vivaro van in 2001.
Arrived new with no wheel trims, they had all fallen off during delivery.
No "special" tool to take the wheels off in case of a puncture.
Wiper arm fell off after three weeks.
Windscreen seal fell off after three weeks.
Sat in van drinking coffee after four weeks, rested foot on the brake pedal
and it fell off. Brake pedal, not my foot.
The AA bloke said "owwwwwwwwwww".
I never trusted that van again.

On 23/07/2018 10:13, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 23 July 2018 09:31:45 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
....
Vehicles vary, so the answer may depend upon what you are driving at the
time.

I thought automatics and manual cars were differnt in what you should do, in america perhaps they assume you are driving a automatic.

You do have the additional option of disengaging the clutch on a manual,
but I don't see that is functionally much different from putting the car
into neutral.


--
--

Colin Bignell

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 20:58:08 +1000, cantankerous senile geezer Rot Speed
blabbered,
again:

One thing I found confusing was that in the US
you are meant to cross yuor arms when sterring
and you'd fail the test if you arms didn't cross,

That¢s not correct.

whereas in the UK you are meant to keep the 10:2 and you are
meant to shuffle the hands while turning the steering wheel.

That¢s not correct

Something's clearly not quite right in your head, senile moron! LOL

--
Cursitor Doom about Rot Speed:
"The man is a conspicuous and unashamed ignoramus."
MID:

"NY" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
TMS320 wrote:
Turning off the ignition will turn off electric power steering. Not what
you want to add to your list of surprises.

You can still steer the car with no power assistance. It will just be
heavier. But not so heavy you can't steer it to the side of the road. And
far safer than trying to stop the car on the brakes while on full power.

Yes I've driven my car a couple of miles, including changing lanes, coming
off a motorway and going round a roundabout, with no PAS when the fan belt
broke. It was heavy. I had to plan ahead and grip the wheel with both
hands to get more torque on the wheel, but it was not insurmountable. I
wouldn't like to try it in a coach or HGV, though :-)

Is the heaviness of the steering when PAS is disabled due solely to having
to compress the PAS fluid on the "wrong" side of the piston that gives
power assistance? Or are cars with PAS made with inherently heavier
steering (different castor angle)

Not castor angle so much as just the gearing between the
steering wheel and the angle of the wheels. A car with PAS
is free to have a more direct ratio because the force required
on the steering wheel wont be that high due to the power
assist when the engine is running.

to give greater precision and feedback to the driver, in the knowledge
that the PAS will more than compensate for this heavier (but more
responsive, more self-centring) steering.

Its more that the force required would be too high for normal
driving without the PAS with the more direct steering.

That’s why some yank tanks had a knob on the steering
wheel in the days before PAS. They had a much higher
ratio to minimise the force required on the steering
wheel but which has the side effect of needing more
turns of the wheel when parking etc.

I've heard two schools of thought about this.

IMO likely due to ignorance of the basics.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
idual.net...
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 10:43:37 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

No handbrake will lock the wheels while the car in is gear.

Must have had pretty poor hand (parking..) brakes on your cars. You
really didn't want to pull the handbrake on hard in the Dicoverys
(but then it's a transmission brake not at the wheel(s). The mondeo
would lock up no problems. The current Freelander has an electronic
hand brake and IIRC the handbook says nasty things are likely to
happen if you manually switch it on when in motion. Most of the time
you have no need to touch the parking brake switch, it looks after
it, including hill starts.

The answer is to turn off the ignition, but not remove the key. Leave
the car in gear. You will still have steering and brakes.

No key, just a button "Engine Start/Stop", there is a steering lock.

Think I'd just push hard on the foot brake with the car in a high
gear and stall it.

Makes more sense to turn the engine off and use the foot brake to
stop it unless you are tearing down a very steep hill fully loaded
and likely even if you are too.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
NY wrote:
Is the heaviness of the steering when PAS is disabled due solely to
having to compress the PAS fluid on the "wrong" side of the piston that
gives power assistance? Or are cars with PAS made with inherently
heavier steering (different castor angle) to give greater precision and
feedback to the driver, in the knowledge that the PAS will more than
compensate for this heavier (but more responsive, more self-centring)
steering. I've heard two schools of thought about this.

I've driven quite a few cars of the same make and model fitted with both
manual and power steering. And the effort needed on a broken power
steering one is way higher than the manual one. Making me think the
hydraulics or whatever must introduce a lot of friction.

That effect is actually due to the gear ratio used with manual
and power steering and that is trivial to prove by counting
the steering wheel turns needed to go lock to lock in both cars.

"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
NY explained on 23/07/2018 :
How would the sump oil find its way into the cylinder? Via leaky piston
rings? I presume top gear and hard on footbrake *should* stall the
engine.

There are various ways for the engine oil to get into the combustion
chamber, there are numerous examples on Youtube of runaway diesel
engines. Some have even tried to use it as an excuse for speeding for
tens of miles. The footbrake certainly 'should' be able to stall the
engine, the engine will have much less power available than normal.

I've vague memories of something my dad told me long time ago. He was
first on the scene at a lorry accident (fortunately no-one was hurt) and
he tried to turn off the lorry's engine at the ignition key. It carried on
going. The driver told him to pull a lever somewhere and there was a lot
of hissing and spluttering and the engine gradually stopped. Now the
obvious thing that a lever would operate would be a fuel shutoff that was
independent of the solenoid that was kept open by the ignition switch, but
that doesn't match the hissing and spluttering. It make me wonder whether
some lorries had a means of venting the cylinders to the atmosphere as a
crude way of breaking the cycle and stalling the engine - maybe by holding
the exhaust valve open during the compression and power stroke to avoid
the compression ignition.

Was that ever done as a way of stalling an engine to turn it off. It would
have been in the late 60s, so whatever technology (mechanical fuel pump
and injectors) was around at the time. Not sure whether it was 2-stroke
(eg Commer "Knocker") or 4-stroke.

More likely it was a way of letting the engine be spun up with a less gung
ho battery by stopping the full compression until the engine was turning
over at a decent speed. In the days before compressed air engine starters
which are now almost universal on those big engines.

On 23/07/18 10:49, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , TMS320
wrote:

Turning off the ignition will turn off electric power steering. Not
what you want to add to your list of surprises.

You can still steer the car with no power assistance.

Sometimes it does no harm to assume there is some intelligence amongst
the readership and they don't need to be told the consequence of not
having assistance.

And far safer than trying to stop the car on the brakes while on full
power.

An engine is nowhere near powerful enough to overcome the brakes; it
would be just a matter of pressing the pedal harder than the foot is
normally calibrated to do. People don't routinely dial in more than
about a quarter g.

On 23/07/2018 15:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Going to take a lot longer to stop it if you don't kill the engine first.
But dunno these push button systems - are you saying it won't kill the
engine on the move?

The Freeloader button will kill and restart the engine on the move, but
the action is linked to the clutch pedal position.

My car, which is an auto, will kill engine power if you stand on the
brakes and throttle at the same time. Don't ask how I know this. ;-)

Well it's an auto, so you'll be left foot braking, and not think about
the accelerator in an emergency.

"Nick Finnigan" wrote in message
news
Well it's an auto, so you'll be left foot braking, and not think about
the accelerator in an emergency.

I've always wondered how the left-foot braking thing ever came into being.
If you drive a manual car you are used to a fairly big movement with your
left foot, and finer, more precise movements with your right foot to operate
the brake or accelerator. Part of learning to drive is acquiring the
different muscle memory in your two feet.

Which bozo thought that it was sensible to operate the brake in an automatic
with your left foot, just because you won't need that foot for the clutch?
It means learning a whole new muscle memory, so as not to press the brake as
hard and as far as you would with the clutch, only to have to unlearn this
if you ever have to drive a manual.

I have always used my right foot to brake in an automatic, exactly as I
would for a manual.