Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2 cable is
44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable difference on the
sound whatsoever.

The resistance is not what's being discussed. What's the impedance at
say 5kHz?

Impedance of the cable when being driven by a 0.1 ohm or so source?
Irrelevant.

Are you sure that the effect on the source impedance that the speaker
sees cannot be significantly affected by a comparable series resistance?
What about the story of speaker damping?

Are you talking about cable resistance or its impedance at a specific
frequency?

Obviously you use cable with a suitably low resistance to maintain that
damping factor.

The question would be can any cable likely to be used have a suitably low
resistance, but a high impedance at any frequencies within the audio range?

All I was saying was that if the output impedance of the amplifier has
an effect on speaker response *and* the lead resistance (which is going
to be largely independent of audio frequency) is a significant part of
amplifier output impedance *then* it may be reasonable to make both
speaker leads about the same resistance. I am not sure when both
conditions are met, but it costs little to make both speaker cables the
same length.

Actually, in practice I buy speakers with buil-in amplifiers so I don't
have to worry about such things.


--

Roger Hayter

wrote:

On Wednesday, 27 December 2017 10:39:01 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 23:52:17 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 22:37:42 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:



An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2
cable is 44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable
difference on the sound whatsoever.

But a good quality audio amplifier may have an output impedance
of around 50milliohm at low frequencies, so the damping effect
on an 8ohm speaker may be significantly affected by an extra
series 110 milliohms.

I already explained why it isn't.

You have explained why it wouldn't be if speaker cabinets contained only
an 8ohm non-inductive resistance. But they wouldn't be much use if
they did..

that isn't what I said. But I can see discussing is a waste of time. This
ever happens when discussing electronics in a diy group.


I know you didn't say that. But your argument only applies rigorously
to a resistor. A speaker contains not only complex reactive elements
but is also non-linear. That doesn't by any means prove you're wrong,
but does make the simple comparison of resistors (which easily 'proves'
the external resistance negligible) an inadequate proof that you are
right.

Speaker resistance is effectively in series with cable resistance and
everything else. It makes ultralow source impedance or huge damping
factors pointless.


NT

If your assumption were true then your conclusion might be. Speaker
resistance is *not* effectively in series with speaker inductance,
crossover capacitance, or the emf generated by acoustic loads, including
resonances, on the diagphrams. For instance.


--

Roger Hayter

ARW wrote:

I went to wire a boiler up for the sort of ****** that buys this sort of
stuff.

Two massive speakers in the lounge and in the garage at the other side
of the lounge wall was a roll of speaker wire from one of the speakers
wrapped around the fuse box.

It was explained to me that "This was to keep both lengths of speaker
wire the same as it sounds better".

Sounds reasonable to me.

It's not unreasonable to imagine that it might be so, and it's a step up
in sophistication from not imagining that it could.

Whatever the technical subject, it's quite easy to come to false
conclusions from a limited understanding. And it's much easier to lead
someone up the garden path if they have a little technical understanding
than if they have none.

In this case I think it's pretty unlikely that speaker cables' length -
unless vastly different in length, and so poorly manufactured that they
had an adverse effect on the sound anyway - would make any noticeable
difference.

Daniele

On 27/12/17 12:30, D.M. Procida wrote:
And it's much easier to lead
someone up the garden path if they have a little technical understanding
than if they have none.
Bull**** Baffles Brains.

The whole remoaner thing really.

--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

In article ,
wrote:
Speaker resistance is effectively in series with cable resistance and
everything else. It makes ultralow source impedance or huge damping
factors pointless.

Depends what you mean by ultra low. There is going to be a point of
diminishing returns. But it's not difficult to design an amp with a decent
damping factor these days - so why would you do any different?

--
*IF A TURTLE DOESN'T HAVE A SHELL, IS HE HOMELESS OR NAKED?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 21:20:30 UTC, ARW wrote:
Two massive speakers in the lounge and in the garage at the other side
of the lounge wall was a roll of speaker wire from one of the speakers
wrapped around the fuse box.

picking up mains hum nicely? :-)

Owain

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
All I was saying was that if the output impedance of the amplifier has
an effect on speaker response *and* the lead resistance (which is going
to be largely independent of audio frequency) is a significant part of
amplifier output impedance *then* it may be reasonable to make both
speaker leads about the same resistance. I am not sure when both
conditions are met, but it costs little to make both speaker cables the
same length.

In a domestic environment, you'd have to try hard to find speaker cable
with such a high DC resistance that differing lengths would have any
effects.

--
*Do they ever shut up on your planet?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/12/17 12:30, D.M. Procida wrote:
And it's much easier to lead someone up the garden path if they have
a little technical understanding than if they have none.
Bull**** Baffles Brains.

The whole remoaner thing really.

Really does make me laugh. The likes of Turnip applying reality to the
claims of Brexiteers. Which are all pure speculation until after we leave.

Unlike remaining, which is the status quo.

So in Hi-Fi terms, Turnip must be all in favour of Russ Andrew type
extravagant claims, as they *might* be true.

Just proves that 'philosophers' seem incapable of logical thought...

--
*Eschew obfuscation *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 26 Dec 2017 21:42:34 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:

ARW wrote:

On 26/12/2017 09:58, Huge wrote:
On 2017-12-26, Brian Gaff wrote:
Is this Uncle Russ Andrews wearing his Santa Disguise?
Brian

Yes.

It's utter ****, of course.


I went to wire a boiler up for the sort of ****** that buys this sort
of stuff.

Two massive speakers in the lounge and in the garage at the other side
of the lounge wall was a roll of speaker wire from one of the speakers
wrapped around the fuse box.

It was explained to me that "This was to keep both lengths of speaker
wire the same as it sounds better".


The next time I work for such a ****** I shall offer "the same cable
length at the roomstat" as an optional extra for £100. I have no doubt
they will pay for it once I have explained to them how "the induction
current due to having a longer switched live than neutral cable at the
stat may alter the hysteresis operation of the room stat and reduce
it's performance".

Of course I'll stick on my magic meter to show this working (well a
mutlimeter) but I think that they will happily cough up an extra £100
for a much better wired roomstat.


I think I'd tend to make both speaker leads about the same length.
Propagation delay is obviouslly irrelevant, signal amplitude difference
well down in the noise, but the different effective output impedance of
the amplifier *might* affect the damping and therefore amplitude and
phase of the frequency response of the speaker in an audible way.
Probably not, but I would anyway.

There's no *might* about it, it'll make feck all difference to the
damping (assuming you're not using bell wire with a difference in length
of 25 metres or more).

An amp that has an output impedance of 20 milli-ohms claiming to offer a
damping factor of 400:1 with 8 ohm speakers will in fact only offer a
damping factor of about 1.07 with most infinite baffle drive units since
a typical voice coil driven cone drive unit of 8 ohms nominal impedance
will typically have a voice coil resistance of about 7.5 ohms which is in
series with the amp's output impedance as far as any "damping factor"
calculation is concerned.

Any audible differences due to unequal lengths of speaker cable will be
more a case of attenuation than one of different damping factors. The
sage advice offered in reputable Hi-Fi mags half a century ago for those
concerned about loudspeaker wiring was to invest in multi-stranded cooker
cable (multi-stranded purely to alleviate the issue of physical
stiffness). The advice, though over-kill in most cases, was perfectly
sound and remains so to this day.

--
Johnny B Good

On Tue, 26 Dec 2017 22:37:40 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:

wrote:

On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 21:42:37 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
ARW wrote:

On 26/12/2017 09:58, Huge wrote:
On 2017-12-26, Brian Gaff wrote:
Is this Uncle Russ Andrews wearing his Santa Disguise?
Brian

Yes.

It's utter ****, of course.


I went to wire a boiler up for the sort of ****** that buys this
sort of stuff.

Two massive speakers in the lounge and in the garage at the other
side of the lounge wall was a roll of speaker wire from one of the
speakers wrapped around the fuse box.

It was explained to me that "This was to keep both lengths of
speaker wire the same as it sounds better".


The next time I work for such a ****** I shall offer "the same
cable length at the roomstat" as an optional extra for £100. I have
no doubt they will pay for it once I have explained to them how
"the induction current due to having a longer switched live than
neutral cable at the stat may alter the hysteresis operation of the
room stat and reduce it's performance".

Of course I'll stick on my magic meter to show this working (well a
mutlimeter) but I think that they will happily cough up an extra
£100 for a much better wired roomstat.


I think I'd tend to make both speaker leads about the same length.
Propagation delay is obviouslly irrelevant, signal amplitude
difference well down in the noise, but the different effective output
impedance of the amplifier *might* affect the damping and therefore
amplitude and phase of the frequency response of the speaker in an
audible way. Probably not, but I would anyway.

An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2 cable is
44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable difference on the
sound whatsoever.


NT

But a good quality audio amplifier may have an output impedance of
around 50milliohm at low frequencies, so the damping effect on an 8ohm
speaker may be significantly affected by an extra series 110 milliohms.

Not when you remember that the 7.5 ohms dc resistance of the speaker
voice coil mentioned by NT ("6-7 ohms") is in series with the amp and the
speaker cable impedances. :-)

--
Johnny B Good

On Wednesday, 27 December 2017 14:14:16 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/12/17 12:30, D.M. Procida wrote:

And it's much easier to lead someone up the garden path if they have
a little technical understanding than if they have none.

Bull**** Baffles Brains.

The whole remoaner thing really.

Really does make me laugh. The likes of Turnip applying reality to the
claims of Brexiteers. Which are all pure speculation until after we leave.

Unlike remaining, which is the status quo.

No it's not, the EU is changing apace, it has a goal in mind, and it's not one I'd want to be a part of.

So in Hi-Fi terms, Turnip must be all in favour of Russ Andrew type
extravagant claims, as they *might* be true.

I don't think he is

Just proves that 'philosophers' seem incapable of logical thought...


NT

On Wednesday, 27 December 2017 15:34:25 UTC, Johnny B Good wrote:

An amp that has an output impedance of 20 milli-ohms claiming to offer a
damping factor of 400:1 with 8 ohm speakers will in fact only offer a
damping factor of about 1.07 with most infinite baffle drive units since
a typical voice coil driven cone drive unit of 8 ohms nominal impedance
will typically have a voice coil resistance of about 7.5 ohms which is in
series with the amp's output impedance as far as any "damping factor"
calculation is concerned.

precisely.

Any audible differences due to unequal lengths of speaker cable will be
more a case of attenuation than one of different damping factors. The
sage advice offered in reputable Hi-Fi mags half a century ago for those
concerned about loudspeaker wiring was to invest in multi-stranded cooker
cable (multi-stranded purely to alleviate the issue of physical
stiffness). The advice, though over-kill in most cases, was perfectly
sound and remains so to this day.

cooker cable is money wasted, as you have just yourself demonstrated.


NT

On Tue, 26 Dec 2017 23:52:15 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:

wrote:

On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 22:37:42 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:



An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2 cable
is 44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable difference
on the sound whatsoever.

But a good quality audio amplifier may have an output impedance of
around 50milliohm at low frequencies, so the damping effect on an
8ohm speaker may be significantly affected by an extra series 110
milliohms.

I already explained why it isn't.

You have explained why it wouldn't be if speaker cabinets contained only
an 8ohm non-inductive resistance. But they wouldn't be much use if
they did..

He (and I) have explained it but it seems you haven't grasped exactly
what it is that's being "damped", a point easily overlooked by those who
already know the answer to that question when explaining why an extra ohm
or two of speaker cable resistance is neither here nor there (at least in
the case of 8 ohm impedance speakers not cursed by badly designed
crossover networks).

What's being "damped" are driver resonances typically at sub 200Hz
frequencies. A voice coil driven cone is a very inefficient transducer
indeed (maybe reaching an efficiency as high as 5% but more typically 1
to 2 percent of which half is lost in an IB enclosure).

The problem is not unlike trying to vibrate the air molecules by rapidly
waving a hammer back and forth - most of the input energy is used up
simply to accelerate/decelerate the mass of the voice coil and cone
assembly with very little being imparted to the air molecules as acoustic
energy. This extremely low efficiency is accepted as the price being paid
for a simple wideband transducer to transfer the audio signal energy from
the electric domain into the acoustic domain.

I recall from reading on the subject many decades ago now, that a full
scale orchestra giving everything it has has been reckoned to produce as
much as a couple of acoustic watt's worth of energy. Since it's a far
more trivial matter to create a 200W per channel Hi-Fi amp than it is to
improve the efficiency of an infinite baffle speaker system to an
efficiency of 48%[1] whilst retaining the broadband response to cover the
full range of audible frequencies, we accept this shortcoming in
efficiency of the typical speaker drive unit as used in practical IB
speaker enclosures.

Getting back to the issue of "Damping", the efficiency of these voice
coil driven speaker units will rise at their low frequency resonance
point, distorting the frequency response. Clever speaker enclosure design
can put this resonance to good use by a combination of damping and
resonance (typically the result of low frequency tuning ports) below the
driver's own natural resonance to both tame and extend the overall
frequency response further towards the bass end of the audible spectrum.

The "Damping Factor" effect from the amp, speaker cable and voice coil
resistances in series damps the much higher resonant impedance of the
drive unit (typically 35 to 45 ohms impedance for a notionally 8 ohm
drive unit). What you can't "damp" is the notional 8 ohm impedance which
is mostly 'resistance' (of the voice coil windings) anyway. In practice,
the best "damping factor" ratio is that of the sum of the voice coil,
cable and amp output impedances versus the resonant impedance of the
drive unit which may top out at a ratio of 5:1.

The cases where very low cable resistance becomes important are when
you're trying to drive a multi drive unit speaker enclosure with a badly
designed cross-over network that can result in the frequency plot of
impedance dipping down to a low of 2 ohms on a nominally 8 ohm speaker.

In this case, assuming the amp is very low impedance and capable of
driving into a 2 ohm load without distortion, the speaker cable
resistance needs to be kept low (no more than half an ohm in this case)
simply to maintain a reasonable frequency response (assuming the badly
designed speaker has been tuned to maintain a flat frequency response
relative to the applied voltage at its terminals). This where the use of
"Cooker Cable" (preferably multi-stranded) comes into its own.

More modestly specced speakers, single 'full range' driver designs and
your basic woofer/mid plus tweeter with a 2 port cross-over network,
don't usually call for such heavy duty low resistance speaker cable
measures. Indeed, in small domestic Hi-Fi setups, even 'bell wire' may
well suffice as 'speaker cable' with sub-5 metre runs.

[1] The 48% figure is typical of the most efficient of pressure driven
horn types of speaker which is the result of losing 50% of the potential
output of the pressure transducer into the closed off rear of the drive
unit which is sometimes made use of by attaching a second matching horn
to double the effective coverage in outdoor PA systems by fully utilising
the 96% efficiency of the drive unit. The efficiency is so much higher
because the horn acts as an acoustic transformer to match the compression
driver's mechanical output impedance to that of the atmosphere's
impedance.

When movie theatres first started tooling up to show "Talkies", pressure
driven horn designs were the obvious choice since high output valve
amplifiers were costly and there was ample room to spare to incorporate a
full range horn speaker into the auditorium, allowing ear splitting
volumes to be achieved using just a single ended class A valve amp of 5
or 6 watts rating. I rather doubt they were ever concerned about "Damping
Factor" figures way back then. :-)

--
Johnny B Good

In article ,
wrote:
Really does make me laugh. The likes of Turnip applying reality to the
claims of Brexiteers. Which are all pure speculation until after we
leave.

Unlike remaining, which is the status quo.

No it's not, the EU is changing apace, it has a goal in mind, and it's
not one I'd want to be a part of.

So the logical thing to do is leave, rather than have as much influence as
any other country who is a member on that change (or no change)?
But perhaps you think once outside the EU, nothing it does will have any
bearing on us.

--
*Being healthy is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
wrote:
Any audible differences due to unequal lengths of speaker cable will be
more a case of attenuation than one of different damping factors. The
sage advice offered in reputable Hi-Fi mags half a century ago for those
concerned about loudspeaker wiring was to invest in multi-stranded cooker
cable (multi-stranded purely to alleviate the issue of physical
stiffness). The advice, though over-kill in most cases, was perfectly
sound and remains so to this day.

cooker cable is money wasted, as you have just yourself demonstrated.

Also very difficult to make a decent connection to speaker and amp
terminals. A decent 2.5mm twin speaker cable is overkill for most.

--
*What are the pink bits in my tyres? Cyclists & Joggers*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
Really does make me laugh. The likes of Turnip applying reality to the
claims of Brexiteers. Which are all pure speculation until after we
leave.

Unlike remaining, which is the status quo.

No it's not, the EU is changing apace, it has a goal in mind, and it's
not one I'd want to be a part of.

So the logical thing to do is leave, rather than have as much influence as
any other country who is a member on that change (or no change)?
But perhaps you think once outside the EU, nothing it does will have any
bearing on us.

I find it a little paradoxical that you support using 2.5mm^2 rather
than unobtrusive 0.5mm^2, but don't agree that it is worth making both
the same length; especially if you use the thinner grades of wire.


--

Roger Hayter

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:
Really does make me laugh. The likes of Turnip applying reality to the
claims of Brexiteers. Which are all pure speculation until after we
leave.

Unlike remaining, which is the status quo.

No it's not, the EU is changing apace, it has a goal in mind, and it's
not one I'd want to be a part of.

So the logical thing to do is leave,

Yep, particularly when there is no way to have any effect what so
ever on the goal unelected unsackable bureaucrats have decided on.

rather than have as much influence as any other country
who is a member on that change (or no change)?

Have fun listing any change any country has achieved.

But perhaps you think once outside the EU,
nothing it does will have any bearing on us.

Corse it wont policy wise.

On Thursday, 28 December 2017 00:21:55 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:

Really does make me laugh. The likes of Turnip applying reality to the
claims of Brexiteers. Which are all pure speculation until after we
leave.

Unlike remaining, which is the status quo.

No it's not, the EU is changing apace, it has a goal in mind, and it's
not one I'd want to be a part of.

So the logical thing to do is leave, rather than have as much influence as
any other country who is a member on that change (or no change)?
But perhaps you think once outside the EU, nothing it does will have any
bearing on us.

So many people get lost trying to change things from the inside when really they have no hope of achieving it. Maybe it's ego that stops them seeing how irrelevant their ideas are to the organisation they dislike yet are supporting.


NT

Roger Hayter wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
Really does make me laugh. The likes of Turnip applying reality to the
claims of Brexiteers. Which are all pure speculation until after we
leave.

Unlike remaining, which is the status quo.

No it's not, the EU is changing apace, it has a goal in mind, and it's
not one I'd want to be a part of.

So the logical thing to do is leave, rather than have as much influence as
any other country who is a member on that change (or no change)?
But perhaps you think once outside the EU, nothing it does will have any
bearing on us.

I find it a little paradoxical that you support using 2.5mm^2 rather
than unobtrusive 0.5mm^2, but don't agree that it is worth making both
the same length; especially if you use the thinner grades of wire.

That ended up in the wrong place, didn't it?
--

Roger Hayter

Roger Hayter wrote:

So the logical thing to do is leave, rather than have as much influence as
any other country who is a member on that change (or no change)?
But perhaps you think once outside the EU, nothing it does will have any
bearing on us.

I find it a little paradoxical that you support using 2.5mm^2 rather
than unobtrusive 0.5mm^2, but don't agree that it is worth making both
the same length; especially if you use the thinner grades of wire.

That ended up in the wrong place, didn't it?

No, I think it's the pointless Brexit exchanges that are in the wrong
place.

Daniele

D.M. Procida wrote:

Roger Hayter wrote:

So the logical thing to do is leave, rather than have as much
influence as any other country who is a member on that change (or no
change)? But perhaps you think once outside the EU, nothing it does
will have any bearing on us.

I find it a little paradoxical that you support using 2.5mm^2 rather
than unobtrusive 0.5mm^2, but don't agree that it is worth making both
the same length; especially if you use the thinner grades of wire.

That ended up in the wrong place, didn't it?

No, I think it's the pointless Brexit exchanges that are in the wrong
place.

Daniele

You have a valid point!

--

Roger Hayter

On 28/12/17 10:03, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

On Thursday, 28 December 2017 00:21:55 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)Â* wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â* tabbypurr wrote:

Really does make me laugh. The likes of Turnip applying reality
to the
claims of Brexiteers. Which are all pure speculation until after we
leave.
Unlike remaining, which is the status quo.

No it's not, the EU is changing apace, it has a goal in mind, and it's
not one I'd want to be a part of.

So the logical thing to do is leave, rather than have as much
influence as
any other country who is a member on that change (or no change)? But
perhaps you think once outside the EU, nothing it does will have any
bearing on us.

So many people get lost trying to change things from the inside when
really
they have no hope of achieving it. Maybe it's ego that stops them
seeing how
irrelevant their ideas are to the organisation they dislike yet are
supporting.

I was being told yesterday about this sort of stuff. Someone had read
Varoufakis' book, in which he described spending some hours discussing
possible options with Christine Lagarde. At the end, just as he thought
how positive that had been and there were some things he could put to
the EU people, she said "But they'll never agree to any of that
anyway".

Varoufakis has shown the futility of trying to change the EU or discuss
anything with it. Complete waste of time, as Cameron discovered too.
Far better to leave, and to treat it as the unreconstructable entity
that it it.

The EU will become (according to the etymology of the Peter Principle) a
'freely floating apex'

A fully fledged government structure with no one to govern.

It is a classic response to a whole structure that has risen past its
level of incompetence.


--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

In message , Huge
writes
On 2017-12-28, D.M. Procida
wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:

So the logical thing to do is leave, rather than have as much
influence as
any other country who is a member on that change (or no change)?
But perhaps you think once outside the EU, nothing it does will have any
bearing on us.

I find it a little paradoxical that you support using 2.5mm^2 rather
than unobtrusive 0.5mm^2, but don't agree that it is worth making both
the same length; especially if you use the thinner grades of wire.

That ended up in the wrong place, didn't it?

No, I think it's the pointless Brexit exchanges that are in the wrong
place.

I've killfiled them all. uk.d-i-y is a much nicer place.

Must be strangely quiet where you are?


--
Tim Lamb

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

The EU will become (according to the etymology of the Peter Principle)
a 'freely floating apex'

A fully fledged government structure with no one to govern.

It is a classic response to a whole structure that has risen past its
level of incompetence.

Should that be *competence*?

(just to show I am still paying attention, if only to avoid something
more important)

--
Tim Lamb

On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 11:22:12 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote:

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

The EU will become (according to the etymology of the Peter Principle) a
'freely floating apex'

A fully fledged government structure with no one to govern.

It is a classic response to a whole structure that has risen past its
level of incompetence.

Should that be *competence*?

You are correct!

I first heard about the PP in the wonderful book by CN Parkinson himself.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

In message , Huge
writes
On 2017-12-28, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Huge
writes
On 2017-12-28, D.M. Procida
wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:

So the logical thing to do is leave, rather than have as much
influence as
any other country who is a member on that change (or no change)?
But perhaps you think once outside the EU, nothing it does
will have any
bearing on us.

I find it a little paradoxical that you support using 2.5mm^2 rather
than unobtrusive 0.5mm^2, but don't agree that it is worth making both
the same length; especially if you use the thinner grades of wire.

That ended up in the wrong place, didn't it?

No, I think it's the pointless Brexit exchanges that are in the wrong
place.

I've killfiled them all. uk.d-i-y is a much nicer place.

Must be strangely quiet where you are?

LOL. There's much less traffic, admittedly, but it's a much nicer place
for it. Didn't take that many entries;

[uk.d-i-y]
Sco: =-9999
Subject: OT
Subject: Brexit

TNP was already killfiled. I think I just added Streater.

I try to live and let live as they both make useful contributions on
other topics.

Anonymity encourages unnecessary insulting behaviour:-(

--
Tim Lamb

On 28/12/17 11:22, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

The EU will become (according to the etymology of the Peter Principle)
a 'freely floating apex'

A fully fledged government structure with no one to govern.

It is a classic response to a whole structure that has risen past its
level of incompetence.

Should that be *competence*?


I do believee you are right.

Its risen past its level of competence to a level of incompetence


(just to show I am still paying attention, if only to avoid something
more important)



--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 11:22:12 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote:

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

The EU will become (according to the etymology of the Peter Principle) a
'freely floating apex'

A fully fledged government structure with no one to govern.

It is a classic response to a whole structure that has risen past its
level of incompetence.

Should that be *competence*?

You are correct!

I first heard about the PP in the wonderful book by CN Parkinson himself.

Hmm.. happened to me in the late 70's. I was a happy and useful control
systems engineer when the site chief electrical engineer took umbrage
because the senior management staff canteen was being closed.
The company was downsizing and my department was due for closure anyway.
The correct decision was to find employment elsewhere but my
apprenticeship and electrical engineering qualifications made me
acceptable to the works electricians....

11kV site supplies was a big step from 12V dc.


--
Tim Lamb

On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 11:34:07 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2017-12-28, Tim Lamb wrote:

Must be strangely quiet where you are?

LOL. There's much less traffic, admittedly, but it's a much nicer place
for it. Didn't take that many entries;

[uk.d-i-y]
Sco: =-9999 Subject: OT Subject: Brexit

TNP was already killfiled. I think I just added Streater.

Don't forget me, Arsehole!



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On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 10:03:40 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

Varoufakis has shown the futility of trying to change the EU or discuss
anything with it. Complete waste of time, as Cameron discovered too. Far
better to leave, and to treat it as the unreconstructable entity that it
it.

Exactly. Someone needs to tell DD and the Crone.



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Huge wrote:

On 2017-12-28, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Huge
writes
On 2017-12-28, D.M. Procida
wrote: Roger Hayter
wrote: So the logical thing to do is leave,
rather than have as much influence as any other country who
is a member on that change (or no change)? But perhaps you think
once outside the EU, nothing it does will have any bearing on us.
I find it a little paradoxical that you support using 2.5mm^2
rather than unobtrusive 0.5mm^2, but don't agree that it is worth
making both the same length; especially if you use the thinner
grades of wire. That ended up in the wrong place, didn't it?
No, I think it's the pointless Brexit exchanges that are in the wrong
place.

I've killfiled them all. uk.d-i-y is a much nicer place.

Must be strangely quiet where you are?

LOL. There's much less traffic, admittedly, but it's a much nicer place
for it. Didn't take that many entries;

[uk.d-i-y]
Sco: =-9999
Subject: OT
Subject: Brexit

TNP was already killfiled. I think I just added Streater.

You said you'd killfile me once. I suppose that may have just been
petulance.


--

Roger Hayter

On 27/12/2017 14:02, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
All I was saying was that if the output impedance of the amplifier has
an effect on speaker response *and* the lead resistance (which is going
to be largely independent of audio frequency) is a significant part of
amplifier output impedance *then* it may be reasonable to make both
speaker leads about the same resistance. I am not sure when both
conditions are met, but it costs little to make both speaker cables the
same length.

In a domestic environment, you'd have to try hard to find speaker cable
with such a high DC resistance that differing lengths would have any
effects.


And that's apart from all the other variables, like the quality of the
speakers, the recording, and even the way the room is furnished, and
also the ability of the listener to actually hear any difference.

PS I watched the BBC program about Patsy and Edina visiting the
champagne region of France and noticed that Patsy doesn't seem to
have aged at all unlike Edina (Jennifer). This was followed by
the 2001? Christmas edition of AbFab and I noticed the name
Jon Plowman on the list of credits. Is he a relative of yours ?.

On 27/12/2017 08:52, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Woody
wrote:

"ARW" wrote in message
news
On 26/12/2017 09:58, Huge wrote:
On 2017-12-26, Brian Gaff wrote:
Is this Uncle Russ Andrews wearing his Santa Disguise?
Â* Brian

Yes.

It's utter ****, of course.


I went to wire a boiler up for the sort of ****** that buys this sort
of stuff.

Two massive speakers in the lounge and in the garage at the other
side of the lounge wall was a roll of speaker wire from one of the
speakers wrapped around the fuse box.

It was explained to me that "This was to keep both lengths of speaker
wire the same as it sounds better".


The next time I work for such a ****** I shall offer "the same cable
length at the roomstat" as an optional extra for £100. I have no
doubt they will pay for it once I have explained to them how "the
induction current due to having a longer switched live than neutral
cable at the stat may alter the hysteresis operation of the room stat
and reduce it's performance".

Of course I'll stick on my magic meter to show this working (well a
mutlimeter) but I think that they will happily cough up an extra £100
for a much better wired roomstat.



I remember the start of this crap over 40 years ago.

A that thime Litz wire was very popular for various 'sound'
improvements. It was reported in ISTR HFN that a Frenchman had gone on
record that by using Litz wire between the front doorbell push and the
bell itself significantly improvedÂ* the "tintinabular sonority" or the
bell when it rang.

Tintin probably sums it up.

But he was Belgian, not French, surely ?.

On Tue, 26 Dec 2017 15:38:15 -0000
"Woody" wrote:

The one that gets me is the phrase

"integrity of the electricity"

What the h*ll does that mean?

Indeed - if your amp's power supply doesn't filter out spurious
harmonics then the connection between it and the noisy mains supply
isn't going to make much difference. I looked for "April 1" on that
page, but as usual with these audiophool sites I failed to find it.

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
So the logical thing to do is leave, rather than have as much influence as
any other country who is a member on that change (or no change)?
But perhaps you think once outside the EU, nothing it does will have any
bearing on us.

I find it a little paradoxical that you support using 2.5mm^2 rather
than unobtrusive 0.5mm^2, but don't agree that it is worth making both
the same length; especially if you use the thinner grades of wire.

0.5mm could well be OK for short runs. Have a look at the internal wiring
in the speaker and amp. You'll not find cooker cable there...

Decent 2.5mm twin speaker cable is small enough not to be difficult to run
and connect. And doesn't look silly where you can see it. And a larger
cable won't do any harm.

--
*Pentium wise, pen and paper foolish *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
wrote:
So the logical thing to do is leave, rather than have as much
influence as any other country who is a member on that change (or no
change)? But perhaps you think once outside the EU, nothing it does
will have any bearing on us.

So many people get lost trying to change things from the inside when
really they have no hope of achieving it. Maybe it's ego that stops them
seeing how irrelevant their ideas are to the organisation they dislike
yet are supporting.

We had at least some influence on EU decisions when a member. If you can
be certain nothing the EU does after we leave will matter to us, then
fine. But that is crystal ball gazing yet again.

--
*With her marriage she got a new name and a dress.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Varoufakis has shown the futility of trying to change the EU or discuss
anything with it. Complete waste of time, as Cameron discovered too.
Far better to leave, and to treat it as the unreconstructable entity
that it it.

Greece isn't the UK. I'm surprised you need this pointed out.

--
*I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
This was followed by
the 2001? Christmas edition of AbFab and I noticed the name
Jon Plowman on the list of credits. Is he a relative of yours ?.

Not as far as I know. But have never done any family tree, etc, tracing.
But Jon doesn't know of any link either.

One odd thing was a sister of my mother married a Plowman too - no
relation to my father. From the other end of the UK.

--
*Taxation WITH representation ain't much fun, either.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 13:49:12 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
This was followed by the 2001? Christmas edition of AbFab and I noticed
the name Jon Plowman on the list of credits. Is he a relative of yours
?.

Not as far as I know. But have never done any family tree, etc, tracing.
But Jon doesn't know of any link either.

One odd thing was a sister of my mother married a Plowman too - no
relation to my father. From the other end of the UK.

I knew a Plowman years ago at the University of Kent.




--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 13:42:57 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

We had at least some influence on EU decisions when a member.

Hardly! I don't know how you can say that without a smiley, Dave.



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