Boredom has set in already, so it's time to check out the online
sales, but for some reason I clicked on my HiFi choice bookmark
by mistake and noticed this product :-


http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/art...etition/25866/

"While the basic mains cables that come bundled with components do a
good job of getting it the power it needs to run, they invariably lack
the quality of materials and high-end construction that are required to
protect the integrity of the electricity, resulting in a significant
reduction in quality."

err, what do powerline ethernet extenders do to the 'quality' of the
electriccery ?. PS It retails at £695 :-)

"seven lucky runners up will get an Evo3 Initium mains cable (worth
£75)." Oooh. A £75 kettle lead. Crikey.

On 25/12/17 15:37, Andrew wrote:
Boredom has set in already, so it's time to check out the online
sales, but for some reason I clicked on my HiFi choice bookmark
by mistake and noticed this product :-


http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/art...etition/25866/

"While the basic mains cables that come bundled with components do a
good job of getting it the power it needs to run, they invariably lack
the quality of materials and high-end construction that are required to
protect the integrity of the electricity, resulting in a significant
reduction in quality."

err, what do powerline ethernet extenders do to the 'quality' of the
electriccery ?. PS It retails at £695 :-)

"seven lucky runners up will get an Evo3 Initium mains cable (worth
£75)."Â* Oooh. A £75 kettle lead. Crikey.

Go well with their Audis and their Apples, then...


--
In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
gets full Marx.

On Mon, 25 Dec 2017 15:37:47 +0000
Andrew wrote:

Boredom has set in already, so it's time to check out the online
sales, but for some reason I clicked on my HiFi choice bookmark
by mistake and noticed this product :-


http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/art...etition/25866/

"While the basic mains cables that come bundled with components do a
good job of getting it the power it needs to run, they invariably
lack the quality of materials and high-end construction that are
required to protect the integrity of the electricity, resulting in a
significant reduction in quality."

err, what do powerline ethernet extenders do to the 'quality' of the
electriccery ?. PS It retails at £695 :-)

"seven lucky runners up will get an Evo3 Initium mains cable (worth
£75)." Oooh. A £75 kettle lead. Crikey.

Is this Russ Andrews' loss-leader brand?

--
Davey.

Is this our old friend again? Everyone knows he only sells placebo effects
to the gullible. it has to be good it cost hundreds. What the rest of the
mains is still rubbish, ah but every little good bit helps. Where is the
sick bag.

Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Andrew" wrote in message
news
Boredom has set in already, so it's time to check out the online
sales, but for some reason I clicked on my HiFi choice bookmark
by mistake and noticed this product :-


http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/art...etition/25866/

"While the basic mains cables that come bundled with components do a good
job of getting it the power it needs to run, they invariably lack the
quality of materials and high-end construction that are required to
protect the integrity of the electricity, resulting in a significant
reduction in quality."

err, what do powerline ethernet extenders do to the 'quality' of the
electriccery ?. PS It retails at £695 :-)

"seven lucky runners up will get an Evo3 Initium mains cable (worth £75)."
Oooh. A £75 kettle lead. Crikey.

Is this Uncle Russ Andrews wearing his Santa Disguise?
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Andrew" wrote in message
news
Boredom has set in already, so it's time to check out the online
sales, but for some reason I clicked on my HiFi choice bookmark
by mistake and noticed this product :-


http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/art...etition/25866/

"While the basic mains cables that come bundled with components do a good
job of getting it the power it needs to run, they invariably lack the
quality of materials and high-end construction that are required to
protect the integrity of the electricity, resulting in a significant
reduction in quality."

err, what do powerline ethernet extenders do to the 'quality' of the
electriccery ?. PS It retails at £695 :-)

"seven lucky runners up will get an Evo3 Initium mains cable (worth £75)."
Oooh. A £75 kettle lead. Crikey.

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/art...etition/25866/

"While the basic mains cables that come bundled with components do a
good job of getting it the power it needs to run, they invariably lack
the quality of materials and high-end construction that are required to
protect the integrity of the electricity, resulting in a significant
reduction in quality."

So you then replace all the wiring in the house, then street etc, with the
same 'high quality' stuff?

And how about the mains connector on the amp etc itself?

--
*Constipated People Don't Give A Crap*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 26/12/17 12:09, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/art...etition/25866/

"While the basic mains cables that come bundled with components do a
good job of getting it the power it needs to run, they invariably lack
the quality of materials and high-end construction that are required to
protect the integrity of the electricity, resulting in a significant
reduction in quality."

So you then replace all the wiring in the house, then street etc, with the
same 'high quality' stuff?

And how about the mains connector on the amp etc itself?

It's laughable that the last few metres of cable would make any
discernible difference when the power comes from multiple different
sources, through all manner of connections and transformers, and have
all sorts of interference from all manner of noisy loads. It's beyond
belief, the disconnection of logic.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/art...etition/25866/

"While the basic mains cables that come bundled with components do a
good job of getting it the power it needs to run, they invariably lack
the quality of materials and high-end construction that are required to
protect the integrity of the electricity, resulting in a significant
reduction in quality."

So you then replace all the wiring in the house, then street etc, with the
same 'high quality' stuff?

And how about the mains connector on the amp etc itself?

I gave up even opening one particular "HiFi" magazine following an article
which told me that a mains plug with gold plated pins inproved the stereo
separation.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 12:41:33 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/art...etition/25866/

"While the basic mains cables that come bundled with components do a
good job of getting it the power it needs to run, they invariably lack
the quality of materials and high-end construction that are required to
protect the integrity of the electricity, resulting in a significant
reduction in quality."

So you then replace all the wiring in the house, then street etc, with the
same 'high quality' stuff?

And how about the mains connector on the amp etc itself?

I gave up even opening one particular "HiFi" magazine following an article
which told me that a mains plug with gold plated pins inproved the stereo
separation.

All product magazines only exist to rake in advertising revenue by hyping whatever manufacturers produce. And Mfrs only exist to maximise profits by inflating prices and cutting costs. You won't find reality in product magazines.


NT

On 26/12/2017 12:35, charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/art...etition/25866/

"While the basic mains cables that come bundled with components do a
good job of getting it the power it needs to run, they invariably lack
the quality of materials and high-end construction that are required to
protect the integrity of the electricity, resulting in a significant
reduction in quality."

So you then replace all the wiring in the house, then street etc, with the
same 'high quality' stuff?

And how about the mains connector on the amp etc itself?

I gave up even opening one particular "HiFi" magazine following an article
which told me that a mains plug with gold plated pins inproved the stereo
separation.

Do Live and Neutral separately carry the left and right channels ?.

On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 14:00:48 UTC, Andrew wrote:
Do Live and Neutral separately carry the left and right channels ?.

Surely you really need Left and Right channels powered by separate phases?

With 3rd phase reserved for the turntable motor and a resistive load to balance the total power across phases.

The resistive load might be mounted on the outside of the house for maximum thermal dissipation.

Owain

The one that gets me is the phrase

"integrity of the electricity"

What the h*ll does that mean?



--
Woody

harrogate3 at ntlworld dot com

On Tuesday, December 26, 2017 at 8:45:34 AM UTC, Brian Gaff wrote:
Is this our old friend again? Everyone knows he only sells placebo effects
to the gullible. it has to be good it cost hundreds. What the rest of the
mains is still rubbish, ah but every little good bit helps. Where is the
sick bag.

Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Andrew" wrote in message
news
Boredom has set in already, so it's time to check out the online
sales, but for some reason I clicked on my HiFi choice bookmark
by mistake and noticed this product :-


http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/art...etition/25866/

"While the basic mains cables that come bundled with components do a good
job of getting it the power it needs to run, they invariably lack the
quality of materials and high-end construction that are required to
protect the integrity of the electricity, resulting in a significant
reduction in quality."

err, what do powerline ethernet extenders do to the 'quality' of the
electriccery ?. PS It retails at £695 :-)

"seven lucky runners up will get an Evo3 Initium mains cable (worth £75)."
Oooh. A £75 kettle lead. Crikey.

Thats not placebo effect its veblen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

On 26/12/17 12:27, Chris Bartram wrote:
On 26/12/17 12:09, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Andrew wrote:
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/art...etition/25866/

"While the basic mains cables that come bundled with components do a
good job of getting it the power it needs to run, they invariably lack
the quality of materials and high-end construction that are required to
protect the integrity of the electricity, resulting in a significant
reduction in quality."

So you then replace all the wiring in the house, then street etc, with
the
same 'high quality' stuff?

And how about the mains connector on the amp etc itself?

It's laughable that the last few metres of cable would make any
discernible difference when the power comes from multiple different
sources, through all manner of connections and transformers, and have
all sorts of interference from all manner of noisy loads. It's beyond
belief, the disconnection of logic.

It isn't beyond belief. Quite the reverse. It's ALL belief.

--
Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

On 26/12/17 15:38, Woody wrote:
The one that gets me is the phrase

"integrity of the electricity"

What the h*ll does that mean?


TRhe same as 'social justice''

Nothing.




--
Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

On 26/12/2017 09:58, Huge wrote:
On 2017-12-26, Brian Gaff wrote:
Is this Uncle Russ Andrews wearing his Santa Disguise?
Brian

Yes.

It's utter ****, of course.


I went to wire a boiler up for the sort of ****** that buys this sort of
stuff.

Two massive speakers in the lounge and in the garage at the other side
of the lounge wall was a roll of speaker wire from one of the speakers
wrapped around the fuse box.

It was explained to me that "This was to keep both lengths of speaker
wire the same as it sounds better".


The next time I work for such a ****** I shall offer "the same cable
length at the roomstat" as an optional extra for £100. I have no doubt
they will pay for it once I have explained to them how "the induction
current due to having a longer switched live than neutral cable at the
stat may alter the hysteresis operation of the room stat and reduce it's
performance".

Of course I'll stick on my magic meter to show this working (well a
mutlimeter) but I think that they will happily cough up an extra £100
for a much better wired roomstat.


--


Adam

ARW wrote:

On 26/12/2017 09:58, Huge wrote:
On 2017-12-26, Brian Gaff wrote:
Is this Uncle Russ Andrews wearing his Santa Disguise?
Brian

Yes.

It's utter ****, of course.


I went to wire a boiler up for the sort of ****** that buys this sort of
stuff.

Two massive speakers in the lounge and in the garage at the other side
of the lounge wall was a roll of speaker wire from one of the speakers
wrapped around the fuse box.

It was explained to me that "This was to keep both lengths of speaker
wire the same as it sounds better".


The next time I work for such a ****** I shall offer "the same cable
length at the roomstat" as an optional extra for £100. I have no doubt
they will pay for it once I have explained to them how "the induction
current due to having a longer switched live than neutral cable at the
stat may alter the hysteresis operation of the room stat and reduce it's
performance".

Of course I'll stick on my magic meter to show this working (well a
mutlimeter) but I think that they will happily cough up an extra £100
for a much better wired roomstat.


I think I'd tend to make both speaker leads about the same length.
Propagation delay is obviouslly irrelevant, signal amplitude difference
well down in the noise, but the different effective output impedance of
the amplifier *might* affect the damping and therefore amplitude and
phase of the frequency response of the speaker in an audible way.
Probably not, but I would anyway.


--

Roger Hayter

On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 21:42:37 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
ARW wrote:

On 26/12/2017 09:58, Huge wrote:
On 2017-12-26, Brian Gaff wrote:
Is this Uncle Russ Andrews wearing his Santa Disguise?
Brian

Yes.

It's utter ****, of course.


I went to wire a boiler up for the sort of ****** that buys this sort of
stuff.

Two massive speakers in the lounge and in the garage at the other side
of the lounge wall was a roll of speaker wire from one of the speakers
wrapped around the fuse box.

It was explained to me that "This was to keep both lengths of speaker
wire the same as it sounds better".


The next time I work for such a ****** I shall offer "the same cable
length at the roomstat" as an optional extra for £100. I have no doubt
they will pay for it once I have explained to them how "the induction
current due to having a longer switched live than neutral cable at the
stat may alter the hysteresis operation of the room stat and reduce it's
performance".

Of course I'll stick on my magic meter to show this working (well a
mutlimeter) but I think that they will happily cough up an extra £100
for a much better wired roomstat.


I think I'd tend to make both speaker leads about the same length.
Propagation delay is obviouslly irrelevant, signal amplitude difference
well down in the noise, but the different effective output impedance of
the amplifier *might* affect the damping and therefore amplitude and
phase of the frequency response of the speaker in an audible way.
Probably not, but I would anyway.

An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2 cable is 44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable difference on the sound whatsoever.


NT

wrote:

On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 21:42:37 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
ARW wrote:

On 26/12/2017 09:58, Huge wrote:
On 2017-12-26, Brian Gaff wrote:
Is this Uncle Russ Andrews wearing his Santa Disguise?
Brian

Yes.

It's utter ****, of course.


I went to wire a boiler up for the sort of ****** that buys this sort of
stuff.

Two massive speakers in the lounge and in the garage at the other side
of the lounge wall was a roll of speaker wire from one of the speakers
wrapped around the fuse box.

It was explained to me that "This was to keep both lengths of speaker
wire the same as it sounds better".


The next time I work for such a ****** I shall offer "the same cable
length at the roomstat" as an optional extra for £100. I have no doubt
they will pay for it once I have explained to them how "the induction
current due to having a longer switched live than neutral cable at the
stat may alter the hysteresis operation of the room stat and reduce it's
performance".

Of course I'll stick on my magic meter to show this working (well a
mutlimeter) but I think that they will happily cough up an extra £100
for a much better wired roomstat.


I think I'd tend to make both speaker leads about the same length.
Propagation delay is obviouslly irrelevant, signal amplitude difference
well down in the noise, but the different effective output impedance of
the amplifier *might* affect the damping and therefore amplitude and
phase of the frequency response of the speaker in an audible way.
Probably not, but I would anyway.

An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2 cable is
44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable difference on the
sound whatsoever.


NT

But a good quality audio amplifier may have an output impedance of
around 50milliohm at low frequencies, so the damping effect on an 8ohm
speaker may be significantly affected by an extra series 110 milliohms.
This may not be an important effect, depending on the speaker design,
but for about 20p worth of wire I am inclined not to risk it.



--

Roger Hayter

On 26/12/17 16:21, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


It isn't beyond belief. Quite the reverse. It's ALL belief.

Good point. Religious, almost.

On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 22:37:42 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 21:42:37 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
ARW wrote:
On 26/12/2017 09:58, Huge wrote:
On 2017-12-26, Brian Gaff wrote:

Is this Uncle Russ Andrews wearing his Santa Disguise?
Brian

Yes.

It's utter ****, of course.


I went to wire a boiler up for the sort of ****** that buys this sort of
stuff.

Two massive speakers in the lounge and in the garage at the other side
of the lounge wall was a roll of speaker wire from one of the speakers
wrapped around the fuse box.

It was explained to me that "This was to keep both lengths of speaker
wire the same as it sounds better".


The next time I work for such a ****** I shall offer "the same cable
length at the roomstat" as an optional extra for £100. I have no doubt
they will pay for it once I have explained to them how "the induction
current due to having a longer switched live than neutral cable at the
stat may alter the hysteresis operation of the room stat and reduce it's
performance".

Of course I'll stick on my magic meter to show this working (well a
mutlimeter) but I think that they will happily cough up an extra £100
for a much better wired roomstat.


I think I'd tend to make both speaker leads about the same length.
Propagation delay is obviouslly irrelevant, signal amplitude difference
well down in the noise, but the different effective output impedance of
the amplifier *might* affect the damping and therefore amplitude and
phase of the frequency response of the speaker in an audible way.
Probably not, but I would anyway.

An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2 cable is
44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable difference on the
sound whatsoever.

But a good quality audio amplifier may have an output impedance of
around 50milliohm at low frequencies, so the damping effect on an 8ohm
speaker may be significantly affected by an extra series 110 milliohms.

I already explained why it isn't.

This may not be an important effect, depending on the speaker design,
but for about 20p worth of wire I am inclined not to risk it.

there is no risk


NT

wrote:

On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 22:37:42 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:



An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2 cable is
44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable difference on the
sound whatsoever.

But a good quality audio amplifier may have an output impedance of
around 50milliohm at low frequencies, so the damping effect on an 8ohm
speaker may be significantly affected by an extra series 110 milliohms.

I already explained why it isn't.

You have explained why it wouldn't be if speaker cabinets contained only
an 8ohm non-inductive resistance. But they wouldn't be much use if
they did..



This may not be an important effect, depending on the speaker design,
but for about 20p worth of wire I am inclined not to risk it.

there is no risk


NT


--

Roger Hayter

"ARW" wrote in message
news
On 26/12/2017 09:58, Huge wrote:
On 2017-12-26, Brian Gaff wrote:
Is this Uncle Russ Andrews wearing his Santa Disguise?
Brian

Yes.

It's utter ****, of course.


I went to wire a boiler up for the sort of ****** that buys this
sort of stuff.

Two massive speakers in the lounge and in the garage at the other
side of the lounge wall was a roll of speaker wire from one of the
speakers wrapped around the fuse box.

It was explained to me that "This was to keep both lengths of
speaker wire the same as it sounds better".


The next time I work for such a ****** I shall offer "the same cable
length at the roomstat" as an optional extra for £100. I have no
doubt they will pay for it once I have explained to them how "the
induction current due to having a longer switched live than neutral
cable at the stat may alter the hysteresis operation of the room
stat and reduce it's performance".

Of course I'll stick on my magic meter to show this working (well a
mutlimeter) but I think that they will happily cough up an extra
£100 for a much better wired roomstat.



I remember the start of this crap over 40 years ago.

A that thime Litz wire was very popular for various 'sound'
improvements. It was reported in ISTR HFN that a Frenchman had gone on
record that by using Litz wire between the front doorbell push and the
bell itself significantly improved the "tintinabular sonority" or the
bell when it rang.

Seems there still not all locked up yet........


--
Woody

harrogate3 at ntlworld dot com

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2 cable is
44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable difference on the
sound whatsoever.

The resistance is not what's being discussed. What's the impedance at
say 5kHz?

Impedance of the cable when being driven by a 0.1 ohm or so source?
Irrelevant.

--
*Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2 cable is
44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable difference on the
sound whatsoever.

The resistance is not what's being discussed. What's the impedance at
say 5kHz?

Impedance of the cable when being driven by a 0.1 ohm or so source?
Irrelevant.

Are you sure that the effect on the source impedance that the speaker
sees cannot be significantly affected by a comparable series resistance?
What about the story of speaker damping?
--

Roger Hayter

On 26/12/2017 22:50, Chris Bartram wrote:
On 26/12/17 16:21, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


It isn't beyond belief. Quite the reverse. It's ALL belief.

Good point. Religious, almost.

It's like the global warming nutters

Bill

On 26/12/2017 14:00, Andrew wrote:

Do Live and Neutral separately carry the left and right channels ?.

It was explained to me when I was a child, by one of my dad's customers,
that the inner core of coaxial cable carried the sound, and the outer
screen carried the picture. His certainty must have been challenged when
ITV started, I suppose.

Bill

On 27/12/17 01:24, Roger Hayter wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2 cable is
44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable difference on the
sound whatsoever.

The resistance is not what's being discussed. What's the impedance at
say 5kHz?

Impedance of the cable when being driven by a 0.1 ohm or so source?
Irrelevant.

Are you sure that the effect on the source impedance that the speaker
sees cannot be significantly affected by a comparable series resistance?
What about the story of speaker damping?

no story.
one of the reasons a Vox AC30, beloved of Brian may, sounds the way it
does is that it has an output impedance of around 80 ohms...

Marshall top is around 8...

On 26/12/17 23:19, wrote:
I already explained why it isn't.

asserting a falsehood is not proof.


This may not be an important effect, depending on the speaker design,
but for about 20p worth of wire I am inclined not to risk it.
there is no risk

On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 23:52:17 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 22:37:42 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:



An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2 cable is
44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable difference on the
sound whatsoever.

But a good quality audio amplifier may have an output impedance of
around 50milliohm at low frequencies, so the damping effect on an 8ohm
speaker may be significantly affected by an extra series 110 milliohms.

I already explained why it isn't.

You have explained why it wouldn't be if speaker cabinets contained only
an 8ohm non-inductive resistance. But they wouldn't be much use if
they did..

that isn't what I said. But I can see discussing is a waste of time. This ever happens when discussing electronics in a diy group.

This may not be an important effect, depending on the speaker design,
but for about 20p worth of wire I am inclined not to risk it.

there is no risk

On Wednesday, 27 December 2017 00:08:56 UTC, Woody wrote:

I remember the start of this crap over 40 years ago.

A that thime Litz wire was very popular for various 'sound'
improvements. It was reported in ISTR HFN that a Frenchman had gone on
record that by using Litz wire between the front doorbell push and the
bell itself significantly improved the "tintinabular sonority" or the
bell when it rang.

Seems there still not all locked up yet........

it might have actually done so by introducing a pile of resistance in the wiring.


NT

On 26/12/2017 12:27, Chris Bartram wrote:
On 26/12/17 12:09, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Andrew wrote:
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/art...etition/25866/

"While the basic mains cables that come bundled with components do a
good job of getting it the power it needs to run, they invariably lack
the quality of materials and high-end construction that are required to
protect the integrity of the electricity, resulting in a significant
reduction in quality."

So you then replace all the wiring in the house, then street etc, with
the
same 'high quality' stuff?

And how about the mains connector on the amp etc itself?

It's laughable that the last few metres of cable would make any
discernible difference when the power comes from multiple different
sources, through all manner of connections and transformers, and have
all sorts of interference from all manner of noisy loads. It's beyond
belief, the disconnection of logic.

There *is* logic, and while it doesn't appeal to you because you can
pull it apart on technical and (to a point) common sense grounds, it
does to others.

I'd list the following variables, roughly in order that inform choice:
ability to pay, lack of technical knowledge, effective marketing,
gullibility, expectation of improved sound, vanity, and bragging rights.

It doesn't wind me up especially - people waste their money on far more
unpleasant things. In fact, bit like buying a posh car :-)

--
Cheers, Rob

wrote:

On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 23:52:17 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 22:37:42 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:



An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2 cable is
44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable difference on the
sound whatsoever.

But a good quality audio amplifier may have an output impedance of
around 50milliohm at low frequencies, so the damping effect on an 8ohm
speaker may be significantly affected by an extra series 110 milliohms.

I already explained why it isn't.

You have explained why it wouldn't be if speaker cabinets contained only
an 8ohm non-inductive resistance. But they wouldn't be much use if
they did..

that isn't what I said. But I can see discussing is a waste of time. This
ever happens when discussing electronics in a diy group.


I know you didn't say that. But your argument only applies rigorously
to a resistor. A speaker contains not only complex reactive elements
but is also non-linear. That doesn't by any means prove you're wrong,
but does make the simple comparison of resistors (which easily 'proves'
the external resistance negligible) an inadequate proof that you are
right.

--


Roger Hayter

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2 cable is
44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable difference on the
sound whatsoever.

The resistance is not what's being discussed. What's the impedance at
say 5kHz?

Impedance of the cable when being driven by a 0.1 ohm or so source?
Irrelevant.

Are you sure that the effect on the source impedance that the speaker
sees cannot be significantly affected by a comparable series resistance?
What about the story of speaker damping?

Are you talking about cable resistance or its impedance at a specific
frequency?

Obviously you use cable with a suitably low resistance to maintain that
damping factor.

The question would be can any cable likely to be used have a suitably low
resistance, but a high impedance at any frequencies within the audio range?

--
*If you lived in your car, you'd be home by now *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
RJH wrote:
There *is* logic, and while it doesn't appeal to you because you can
pull it apart on technical and (to a point) common sense grounds, it
does to others.

I'd list the following variables, roughly in order that inform choice:
ability to pay, lack of technical knowledge, effective marketing,
gullibility, expectation of improved sound, vanity, and bragging rights.

The ear actually has a rather poor memory, in absolute terms.
Add to that if you've gone to the bother of paying good money for new
leads, you do so expecting an improvement. Then things like listening
after a decent meal and perhaps drink effect how you hear things too.

Which is why the only way to really assess things like cables is by blind
testing.

--
*Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, 27 December 2017 10:39:01 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 23:52:17 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 22:37:42 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:



An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2 cable is
44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable difference on the
sound whatsoever.

But a good quality audio amplifier may have an output impedance of
around 50milliohm at low frequencies, so the damping effect on an 8ohm
speaker may be significantly affected by an extra series 110 milliohms.

I already explained why it isn't.

You have explained why it wouldn't be if speaker cabinets contained only
an 8ohm non-inductive resistance. But they wouldn't be much use if
they did..

that isn't what I said. But I can see discussing is a waste of time. This
ever happens when discussing electronics in a diy group.


I know you didn't say that. But your argument only applies rigorously
to a resistor. A speaker contains not only complex reactive elements
but is also non-linear. That doesn't by any means prove you're wrong,
but does make the simple comparison of resistors (which easily 'proves'
the external resistance negligible) an inadequate proof that you are
right.

Speaker resistance is effectively in series with cable resistance and everything else. It makes ultralow source impedance or huge damping factors pointless.


NT

On 27/12/17 10:38, Roger Hayter wrote:
wrote:

On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 23:52:17 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 22:37:42 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:



An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2 cable is
44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable difference on the
sound whatsoever.

But a good quality audio amplifier may have an output impedance of
around 50milliohm at low frequencies, so the damping effect on an 8ohm
speaker may be significantly affected by an extra series 110 milliohms.

I already explained why it isn't.

You have explained why it wouldn't be if speaker cabinets contained only
an 8ohm non-inductive resistance. But they wouldn't be much use if
they did..

that isn't what I said. But I can see discussing is a waste of time. This
ever happens when discussing electronics in a diy group.


I know you didn't say that. But your argument only applies rigorously
to a resistor. A speaker contains not only complex reactive elements
but is also non-linear. That doesn't by any means prove you're wrong,
but does make the simple comparison of resistors (which easily 'proves'
the external resistance negligible) an inadequate proof that you are
right.

it doesn't even do that. 0.11 ohms is small compared to 8, but it is not
'negligible'.

The problem with this hifi lark is that there is a small grain of truth
in all of it (except gold plated mains cables, unless yoy are arcting).

I myself got called to te production line when all te baords strarted
exchibiyting excessive distorion ()0.25%)

This was traced to oxidation due to over use of the silver plated test
rig connecter that connected the circuit board to the test rig.

It was acting like a very very poor rectifier.

Resistance was not the issue. Non linear resistance was. Gold plating
might have been better.


--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

On 27/12/17 11:07, wrote:
On Wednesday, 27 December 2017 10:39:01 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 23:52:17 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 22:37:42 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:



An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2 cable is
44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable difference on the
sound whatsoever.

But a good quality audio amplifier may have an output impedance of
around 50milliohm at low frequencies, so the damping effect on an 8ohm
speaker may be significantly affected by an extra series 110 milliohms.

I already explained why it isn't.

You have explained why it wouldn't be if speaker cabinets contained only
an 8ohm non-inductive resistance. But they wouldn't be much use if
they did..

that isn't what I said. But I can see discussing is a waste of time. This
ever happens when discussing electronics in a diy group.


I know you didn't say that. But your argument only applies rigorously
to a resistor. A speaker contains not only complex reactive elements
but is also non-linear. That doesn't by any means prove you're wrong,
but does make the simple comparison of resistors (which easily 'proves'
the external resistance negligible) an inadequate proof that you are
right.

Speaker resistance is effectively in series with cable resistance and everything else. It makes ultralow source impedance or huge damping factors pointless.

Oh dear oh dear.



NT



--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On 26/12/17 16:19, fred wrote:
On Tuesday, December 26, 2017 at 8:45:34 AM UTC, Brian Gaff wrote:
Is this our old friend again? Everyone knows he only sells placebo effects
to the gullible. it has to be good it cost hundreds. What the rest of the
mains is still rubbish, ah but every little good bit helps. Where is the
sick bag.

Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Andrew" wrote in message
news
Boredom has set in already, so it's time to check out the online
sales, but for some reason I clicked on my HiFi choice bookmark
by mistake and noticed this product :-


http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/art...etition/25866/

"While the basic mains cables that come bundled with components do a good
job of getting it the power it needs to run, they invariably lack the
quality of materials and high-end construction that are required to
protect the integrity of the electricity, resulting in a significant
reduction in quality."

err, what do powerline ethernet extenders do to the 'quality' of the
electriccery ?. PS It retails at £695 :-)

"seven lucky runners up will get an Evo3 Initium mains cable (worth £75)."
Oooh. A £75 kettle lead. Crikey.

Thats not placebo effect its veblen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

Currently it would perhaps be recognised more as "Apple" rather than
"Veblen"...

--

Jeff

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Roger Hayter
wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article , Tim
Streater wrote:
An 8ohm speaker is 6-7 ohms dc resistance. A metre of 1mm^2 cable
is 44mohm, so 2.5 metres is 0.11ohms. So no detectable difference
on the sound whatsoever.

The resistance is not what's being discussed. What's the impedance
at say 5kHz?

Impedance of the cable when being driven by a 0.1 ohm or so source?
Irrelevant.

Are you sure that the effect on the source impedance that the speaker
sees cannot be significantly affected by a comparable series
resistance? What about the story of speaker damping?

Are you talking about cable resistance or its impedance at a specific
frequency?

Obviously you use cable with a suitably low resistance to maintain that
damping factor.

The question would be can any cable likely to be used have a suitably low
resistance, but a high impedance at any frequencies within the audio
range?

This is all sounding terribly like the complaints the BBC received in the
early 80s when Radio 3 started broadcasting music from CDs. " They sound
terrible - digital does that to sound." But you haven't noticed that the
distribution to the transmitters has been digital for about 10 years."

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England