https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwmfBp3U2Os



--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

I have not looked at this, but some time ago somebody designed a tiny little
generator that ran on methenol for a laptop computer. I don't recall how it
produced electricity, but it did work but apparently the gasses it gave off
could be toxic.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwmfBp3U2Os



--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

I do remember that many years ago. However its a rather extreme example. We
do use hydrogen on busses and they seem to think that safe enough with a bus
load of passengers in London. Hydrogen burns with an invisible flame most of
the time. That is one reason why a small hydrogen fire was not spotted in
the old airships until it was far too late of course.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwmfBp3U2Os



--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

On 01/10/2017 08:08, Brian Gaff wrote:
I have not looked at this, but some time ago somebody designed a tiny little
generator that ran on methenol for a laptop computer. I don't recall how it
produced electricity, but it did work but apparently the gasses it gave off
could be toxic.
Brian


You can buy them to use for caravans/motorhomes/camping etc. I've not
looked into how there work- I'm not even sure they use an engine.

Certainly in France they sell petrol 'diluted' with ethanol- the signs
say modern cars after a certain date can use it. It is a bit cheaper
than straight petrol.

--

Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud

In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
On 01/10/2017 08:08, Brian Gaff wrote:
I have not looked at this, but some time ago somebody designed a tiny little
generator that ran on methenol for a laptop computer. I don't recall how it
produced electricity, but it did work but apparently the gasses it gave off
could be toxic.
Brian


You can buy them to use for caravans/motorhomes/camping etc. I've not
looked into how there work- I'm not even sure they use an engine.

Certainly in France they sell petrol 'diluted' with ethanol- the signs
say modern cars after a certain date can use it. It is a bit cheaper
than straight petrol.

It's common in the US too.

Large amounts of ethanol are said to cause damage to the fuel system in
cars not designed for it. Lots of reports of things like 'rubber' hoses
disintegrating.

It's not new - when I were a kid there was a petrol called Cleveland
Discol. Claimed to contain alcohol.

--
*Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sunday, 1 October 2017 11:01:32 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
It's not new - when I were a kid there was a petrol called Cleveland
Discol. Claimed to contain alcohol.

"the exemption from any tax of alcohol used for mechanical purposes, even the 8d. per gallon tax on petrol, the idea being to foster as much as possible the use of home-produced fuels. Thus for every gallon of alcohol fuel manufactured, only 75% of it (the alcohol content is roughly 25%) is subject to the 8d. petrol tax."
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/ar...ession-engines

Owain

Jethro_uk Wrote in message:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 03:40:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwmfBp3U2Os

FWIW, there is a *lot* of real-science work being done on this. The holy
grail being able to directly ferment cellulose (e.g. grass) into ethanol,
and thence be able to power ourselves by grass clippings.

The current sticking point is that the chain of biology involved is
leisurely at best. My brother was working on supercomputer simulations to
try and devise better molecules, but there appears to be some sort of
biological "master clock" which limits the rates of reactions.
(Interestingly this is the same factor in doctors starting to understand
why different people react differently to the same drugs ...)

Annoyingly, it's very hard to get all the water out of ethanol/water due
to the boiling point of the mixture being slightly lower than the boiling
point of water (96C IIRC). Azoetrope IIRC again ....

Doesn't distillation work? Ethanol boils at c78 deg C?
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

jim k Wrote in message:
Jethro_uk Wrote in message:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 03:40:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwmfBp3U2Os

FWIW, there is a *lot* of real-science work being done on this. The holy
grail being able to directly ferment cellulose (e.g. grass) into ethanol,
and thence be able to power ourselves by grass clippings.

The current sticking point is that the chain of biology involved is
leisurely at best. My brother was working on supercomputer simulations to
try and devise better molecules, but there appears to be some sort of
biological "master clock" which limits the rates of reactions.
(Interestingly this is the same factor in doctors starting to understand
why different people react differently to the same drugs ...)

Annoyingly, it's very hard to get all the water out of ethanol/water due
to the boiling point of the mixture being slightly lower than the boiling
point of water (96C IIRC). Azoetrope IIRC again ....

Doesn't distillation work? Ethanol boils at c78 deg C?

Ah azoetropes! :-)
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 03:40:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwmfBp3U2Os

Still gets used in certain classes of classic motor racing events. I
wonder how long that was on fire before anyone realised it? Nasty stuff.




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This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

You can buy them to use for caravans/motorhomes/camping etc. I've not
looked into how there work- I'm not even sure they use an engine.

Certainly in France they sell petrol 'diluted' with ethanol- the signs
say modern cars after a certain date can use it. It is a bit cheaper
than straight petrol.

It's common in the US too.

Large amounts of ethanol are said to cause damage to the fuel system in
cars not designed for it. Lots of reports of things like 'rubber' hoses
disintegrating.

It's not new - when I were a kid there was a petrol called Cleveland
Discol. Claimed to contain alcohol.

Mk1 MX5s have a fuel tank drain bolt, with a fibre washer.

Mine was fine, until a couple of weeks after we returned from a European
tour, during which time we extensively used E10. I lost a whole tank of
UK unleaded outside a hotel overnight.
--
Steve H

Huge Wrote in message:
On 2017-10-01, jim k wrote:
Jethro_uk Wrote in message:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 03:40:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwmfBp3U2Os

FWIW, there is a *lot* of real-science work being done on this. The holy
grail being able to directly ferment cellulose (e.g. grass) into ethanol,
and thence be able to power ourselves by grass clippings.

The current sticking point is that the chain of biology involved is
leisurely at best. My brother was working on supercomputer simulations to
try and devise better molecules, but there appears to be some sort of
biological "master clock" which limits the rates of reactions.
(Interestingly this is the same factor in doctors starting to understand
why different people react differently to the same drugs ...)

Annoyingly, it's very hard to get all the water out of ethanol/water due
to the boiling point of the mixture being slightly lower than the boiling
point of water (96C IIRC). Azoetrope IIRC again ....

Doesn't distillation work? Ethanol boils at c78 deg C?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope


Yerss, see my post 1.5hrs before yours...
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

Jethro_uk Wrote in message:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 16:50:37 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2017-10-01, jim k wrote:
Jethro_uk Wrote in message:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 03:40:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwmfBp3U2Os

FWIW, there is a *lot* of real-science work being done on this. The
holy grail being able to directly ferment cellulose (e.g. grass) into
ethanol,
and thence be able to power ourselves by grass clippings.

The current sticking point is that the chain of biology involved is
leisurely at best. My brother was working on supercomputer simulations
to try and devise better molecules, but there appears to be some sort
of biological "master clock" which limits the rates of reactions.
(Interestingly this is the same factor in doctors starting to
understand why different people react differently to the same drugs
...)

Annoyingly, it's very hard to get all the water out of ethanol/water
due to the boiling point of the mixture being slightly lower than the
boiling point of water (96C IIRC). Azoetrope IIRC again ....

Doesn't distillation work? Ethanol boils at c78 deg C?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope




Does freezing not work either?
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

Tim Streater Wrote in message:
In article , Jethro_uk
wrote:

Annoyingly, it's very hard to get all the water out of ethanol/water
due
to the boiling point of the mixture being slightly lower than the boiling
point of water (96C IIRC). Azoetrope IIRC again ....

Isn't the boiling point if ethanol even lower?


:-)
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Brian Gaff
wrote:

I do remember that many years ago. However its a rather extreme example.
We do use hydrogen on busses and they seem to think that safe enough with
a bus load of passengers in London. Hydrogen burns with an invisible flame
most of the time. That is one reason why a small hydrogen fire was not
spotted in the old airships until it was far too late of course.

AIUI, the Hindenberg deaths were mostly caused by people jumping out of
the gondola. They should have stayed in it until it sank down to ground
level and jumped out.

And got burnt to a crisp as the whole thing came down on them in flames.

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 11:01:32 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
On 01/10/2017 08:08, Brian Gaff wrote:
I have not looked at this, but some time ago somebody designed a tiny little
generator that ran on methenol for a laptop computer. I don't recall how it
produced electricity, but it did work but apparently the gasses it gave off
could be toxic.
Brian


You can buy them to use for caravans/motorhomes/camping etc. I've not
looked into how there work- I'm not even sure they use an engine.

Certainly in France they sell petrol 'diluted' with ethanol- the signs
say modern cars after a certain date can use it. It is a bit cheaper
than straight petrol.

It's common in the US too.

Large amounts of ethanol are said to cause damage to the fuel system in
cars not designed for it. Lots of reports of things like 'rubber' hoses
disintegrating.

It's not new - when I were a kid there was a petrol called Cleveland
Discol. Claimed to contain alcohol.


I remember that; also National Benzole, whose product contained those delightful compounds benzene and toluene.

On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 23:37:56 -0700 (PDT), Halmyre
wrote:


It's not new - when I were a kid there was a petrol called Cleveland
Discol. Claimed to contain alcohol.


I remember that; also National Benzole, whose product contained those delightful compounds benzene and toluene.

In later years the word Benzole quietly dropped off the signs as the
petrol became conventional just retaining the word National and the
head of Mercury trade mark.

For some reason the brand survives in the Isle Of Wight at a few
filling stations.
https://goo.gl/maps/w8cUg8B8r9t


G.Harman

On 01/10/2017 23:09, jim wrote:
Tim Streater Wrote in message:
In article , Jethro_uk
wrote:

Annoyingly, it's very hard to get all the water out of ethanol/water
due
to the boiling point of the mixture being slightly lower than the boiling
point of water (96C IIRC). Azoetrope IIRC again ....

Isn't the boiling point if ethanol even lower?


:-)


Ethanol bp is 78c which is why it is so easy to seperate from Methanol
at 64c when brewing.

On 01/10/2017 03:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwmfBp3U2Os

Same problem with hydrogen as a fuel too with invisible flames although
it is much less likely to poison you than methanol.

My neighbour does have a car that runs off methanol (and a bit of nitro)
- a custom drag racer with a highly tuned 2k horsepower engine. Turns
out he is one of the UK's fastest dragster racers.

The clutch is made of titanium with a race certified seal on it.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

"Ade" wrote in message news
On 01/10/2017 23:09, jim wrote:
Tim Streater Wrote in message:
In article , Jethro_uk
wrote:

Annoyingly, it's very hard to get all the water out of ethanol/water
due
to the boiling point of the mixture being slightly lower than the
boiling
point of water (96C IIRC). Azoetrope IIRC again ....

Isn't the boiling point if ethanol even lower?


:-)


Ethanol bp is 78c which is why it is so easy to seperate from Methanol at
64c when brewing.

And the boiling point of ethanol/water mixture at its 95/5% mixture is
fractionally *lower* than for pure ethanol (78.2 for the mixture, 78.4 for
pure ethanol) so you can never get pure ethanol by simple distillation.
Apparently the way round this is add an "entrainer" such as benzene or
cyclohexane which preferentially binds with the water. This triple mixture
boils at 62 degrees and the water/benzene boils off, leaving (in theory)
pure ethanol as a residue.

Alternatively you add calcium oxide which binds chemically with the water
and the resulting calcium hydroxide can be filtered off, allowing the
filtrate to be re-distilled to extract pure ethanol.


I'm not sure whether ethanol/water forms a similar azeotrope for freezing,
and whether you can separate them by freezing, since ethanol and water
(separately) freeze at different temperatures. I remember an ice-cream van
owner where we bought an ice cream telling my dad about separating alcohol
from water by freezing in a deep-freeze, and dad strung him along by
pretending to work for Customs and Excise :-)

On 02/10/2017 12:54, NY wrote:
"Ade" wrote in message news

Ethanol bp is 78c which is why it isÂ* so easy to seperate from
Methanol at 64c when brewing.

And the boiling point of ethanol/water mixture at its 95/5% mixture is
fractionally *lower* than for pure ethanol (78.2 for the mixture, 78.4
for pure ethanol) so you can never get pure ethanol by simple
distillation. Apparently the way round this is add an "entrainer" such
as benzene or cyclohexane which preferentially binds with the water.
This triple mixture boils at 62 degrees and the water/benzene boils off,
leaving (in theory) pure ethanol as a residue.

Snag is you really don't want any benzene in drinking quality ethanol.

Alternatively you add calcium oxide which binds chemically with the
water and the resulting calcium hydroxide can be filtered off, allowing
the filtrate to be re-distilled to extract pure ethanol.

Not sure they bother drying it aggressively for fuel grade ethanol since
it will quickly absorb water from the atmosphere again.

I'm not sure whether ethanol/water forms a similar azeotrope for
freezing, and whether you can separate them by freezing, since ethanol
and water (separately) freeze at different temperatures. I remember an
ice-cream van owner where we bought an ice cream telling my dad about
separating alcohol from water by freezing in a deep-freeze, and dad
strung him along by pretending to work for Customs and Excise :-)

It does in the sense that all the organics stay in the liquor and a
nearly pure water ice slush forms as it freezes. The bad news is that
the methanol and all the other bad organic impurities stay in the
alcohol phase so it is evil gut rot. It lacks the finesse of distilling.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 23:37:56 -0700 (PDT), Halmyre wrote:

It's not new - when I were a kid there was a petrol called Cleveland
Discol. Claimed to contain alcohol.


I remember that; also National Benzole, whose product contained those delightful compounds benzene and toluene.

In the '60s, when I started working for Plessey, benzene was already banned
throughout the company.
Fast forward to lead-free petrol and benzene is permitted. Cut out some
damage to brains and inflict cancer instead.
Car: noun; abbr. for carcinogenerator.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

"jim" k wrote in message
...
Jethro_uk Wrote in message:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 16:50:37 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2017-10-01, jim k wrote:
Jethro_uk Wrote in message:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 03:40:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwmfBp3U2Os

FWIW, there is a *lot* of real-science work being done on this. The
holy grail being able to directly ferment cellulose (e.g. grass) into
ethanol,
and thence be able to power ourselves by grass clippings.

The current sticking point is that the chain of biology involved is
leisurely at best. My brother was working on supercomputer simulations
to try and devise better molecules, but there appears to be some sort
of biological "master clock" which limits the rates of reactions.
(Interestingly this is the same factor in doctors starting to
understand why different people react differently to the same drugs
...)

Annoyingly, it's very hard to get all the water out of ethanol/water
due to the boiling point of the mixture being slightly lower than the
boiling point of water (96C IIRC). Azoetrope IIRC again ....

Doesn't distillation work? Ethanol boils at c78 deg C?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope




Does freezing not work either?

Nope, not to get the last of the water out of the ethanol.

What the industry calls absolute alcohol, as close as you
can get economically to just ethanol, uses benzene to get
the last of the water out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol#Purification

On 02-Oct-17 4:47 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 02/10/2017 12:54, NY wrote:
"Ade" wrote in message news

Ethanol bp is 78c which is why it isÂ* so easy to seperate from
Methanol at 64c when brewing.

And the boiling point of ethanol/water mixture at its 95/5% mixture is
fractionally *lower* than for pure ethanol (78.2 for the mixture, 78.4
for pure ethanol) so you can never get pure ethanol by simple
distillation. Apparently the way round this is add an "entrainer" such
as benzene or cyclohexane which preferentially binds with the water.
This triple mixture boils at 62 degrees and the water/benzene boils
off, leaving (in theory) pure ethanol as a residue.

Snag is you really don't want any benzene in drinking quality ethanol.

But don't you want 99%+ ethanol for drinking. The only reason to want
99.9% pure is for further chemical process or fuel.

Even the "rocket fuel" grades for consumption don't exceed 80% by
volume. Normal spirits on the shelf are around 40%-50% by volume.

Alternatively you add calcium oxide which binds chemically with the
water and the resulting calcium hydroxide can be filtered off,
allowing the filtrate to be re-distilled to extract pure ethanol.

Not sure they bother drying it aggressively for fuel grade ethanol since
it will quickly absorb water from the atmosphere again.

I'm not sure whether ethanol/water forms a similar azeotrope for
freezing, and whether you can separate them by freezing, since ethanol
and water (separately) freeze at different temperatures. I remember an
ice-cream van owner where we bought an ice cream telling my dad about
separating alcohol from water by freezing in a deep-freeze, and dad
strung him along by pretending to work for Customs and Excise :-)

It does in the sense that all the organics stay in the liquor and a
nearly pure water ice slush forms as it freezes. The bad news is that
the methanol and all the other bad organic impurities stay in the
alcohol phase so it is evil gut rot. It lacks the finesse of distilling.

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2017-10-02, Ade wrote:
On 01/10/2017 23:09, jim wrote:
Tim Streater Wrote in message:
In article , Jethro_uk
wrote:

Annoyingly, it's very hard to get all the water out of ethanol/water
due
to the boiling point of the mixture being slightly lower than the
boiling
point of water (96C IIRC). Azoetrope IIRC again ....

Isn't the boiling point if ethanol even lower?


:-)


Ethanol bp is 78c which is why it is so easy to seperate from Methanol
at 64c when brewing.

Do ethanol, methanol & water form a triple azeotrope?

Nope.

If so, they are not separable.

They are trivially separable and that is done all the time with distilling.

(I suspect not, since the practice of discarding the foreshots
and feignts in whiskey distillation would be pointless.)

Not necessarily, there are a lot more than just those to alcohols
and water in what you distil and the higher alcohols are foul taste
wise. Methanol isnt.

"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...
"Ade" wrote in message news
On 01/10/2017 23:09, jim wrote:
Tim Streater Wrote in message:
In article , Jethro_uk
wrote:

Annoyingly, it's very hard to get all the water out of ethanol/water
due
to the boiling point of the mixture being slightly lower than the
boiling
point of water (96C IIRC). Azoetrope IIRC again ....

Isn't the boiling point if ethanol even lower?


:-)


Ethanol bp is 78c which is why it is so easy to seperate from Methanol
at 64c when brewing.

And the boiling point of ethanol/water mixture at its 95/5% mixture is
fractionally *lower* than for pure ethanol (78.2 for the mixture, 78.4 for
pure ethanol) so you can never get pure ethanol by simple distillation.
Apparently the way round this is add an "entrainer" such as benzene or
cyclohexane which preferentially binds with the water. This triple mixture
boils at 62 degrees and the water/benzene boils off, leaving (in theory)
pure ethanol as a residue.

Alternatively you add calcium oxide which binds chemically with the water
and the resulting calcium hydroxide can be filtered off, allowing the
filtrate to be re-distilled to extract pure ethanol.


I'm not sure whether ethanol/water forms a similar azeotrope for freezing,
and whether you can separate them by freezing, since ethanol and water
(separately) freeze at different temperatures.

No you can't get rid of the last of the water that way. Thats why
benzene is used to produce absolute alcohol, no water at all.

I remember an ice-cream van owner where we bought an ice cream telling my
dad about separating alcohol from water by freezing in a deep-freeze,

Yeah, but distillation works better and is easier to organise too.

and dad strung him along by pretending to work for Customs and Excise :-)

"Jethro_uk" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 11:27:44 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2017-10-02, Ade wrote:
On 01/10/2017 23:09, jim wrote:
Tim Streater Wrote in message:
In article , Jethro_uk
wrote:

Annoyingly, it's very hard to get all the water out of ethanol/water
due
to the boiling point of the mixture being slightly lower than the
boiling point of water (96C IIRC). Azoetrope IIRC again ....

Isn't the boiling point if ethanol even lower?


:-)


Ethanol bp is 78c which is why it is so easy to seperate from Methanol
at 64c when brewing.

Do ethanol, methanol & water form a triple azeotrope? If so, they are
not separable.

(I suspect not, since the practice of discarding the foreshots and
feignts in whiskey distillation would be pointless.)

that's more to discard fusel oils. You will only have *methanol* if
methanol was there to start with.

Generally brewing fermentation doesn't produce methanol

Yes it does.

(ISTR cherries being an exception).

Nope. You can see the methanol with the initial
rise in temp when distilling fermented sugar.

And completely trivial to measure how much methanol
is there in the initial output from the still too.

And any tiny traces of methanol will be more than
dealt with by the abundance of the antidote to methanol poisoning:
ethanol.

The only scare stories about dodgy distillation comes from the dodgy
people (criminals) involved in making a quick buck from it. From the
legion of UK home distillers .... nada. Not a peep.

On 03/10/2017 01:21, Rod Speed wrote:


"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...
"Ade" wrote in message news
On 01/10/2017 23:09, jim wrote:
Tim Streater Wrote in message:
In article , Jethro_uk
wrote:

Annoyingly, it's very hard to get all the water out of ethanol/water
due
to the boiling point of the mixture being slightly lower than the
boiling
point of water (96C IIRC). Azoetrope IIRC again ....

Isn't the boiling point if ethanol even lower?


:-)


Ethanol bp is 78c which is why it isÂ* so easy to seperate from
Methanol at 64c when brewing.

And the boiling point of ethanol/water mixture at its 95/5% mixture is
fractionally *lower* than for pure ethanol (78.2 for the mixture, 78.4
for pure ethanol) so you can never get pure ethanol by simple
distillation. Apparently the way round this is add an "entrainer" such
as benzene or cyclohexane which preferentially binds with the water.
This triple mixture boils at 62 degrees and the water/benzene boils
off, leaving (in theory) pure ethanol as a residue.

Alternatively you add calcium oxide which binds chemically with the
water and the resulting calcium hydroxide can be filtered off,
allowing the filtrate to be re-distilled to extract pure ethanol.


I'm not sure whether ethanol/water forms a similar azeotrope for
freezing, and whether you can separate them by freezing, since ethanol
and water (separately) freeze at different temperatures.

No you can't get rid of the last of the water that way. Thats why
benzene is used to produce absolute alcohol, no water at all.

I remember an ice-cream van owner where we bought an ice cream telling
my dad about separating alcohol from water by freezing in a deep-freeze,

Yeah, but distillation works better and is easier to organise too.

It may be more effective, but not as easy as putting a pot of alcohol
water mixture in a freezer and decanting off a strong ethanol liquor.

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2017-10-02, Jethro_uk wrote:

[35 lines snipped]

The only scare stories about dodgy distillation comes from the dodgy
people (criminals) involved in making a quick buck from it. From the
legion of UK home distillers .... nada. Not a peep.

I'm not sure I'm prepared to make a possibly fatal decision on the
basis of the feedback from those engaged in an illegal activity.

Don’t need to do anything like that. Its completely trivial to
measure if there is any methanol in the first run from the still.

"Fredxxx" wrote in message
news
On 03/10/2017 01:21, Rod Speed wrote:


"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...
"Ade" wrote in message
news On 01/10/2017 23:09, jim wrote:
Tim Streater Wrote in message:
In article , Jethro_uk
wrote:

Annoyingly, it's very hard to get all the water out of ethanol/water
due
to the boiling point of the mixture being slightly lower than the
boiling
point of water (96C IIRC). Azoetrope IIRC again ....

Isn't the boiling point if ethanol even lower?


:-)


Ethanol bp is 78c which is why it is so easy to seperate from Methanol
at 64c when brewing.

And the boiling point of ethanol/water mixture at its 95/5% mixture is
fractionally *lower* than for pure ethanol (78.2 for the mixture, 78.4
for pure ethanol) so you can never get pure ethanol by simple
distillation. Apparently the way round this is add an "entrainer" such
as benzene or cyclohexane which preferentially binds with the water.
This triple mixture boils at 62 degrees and the water/benzene boils off,
leaving (in theory) pure ethanol as a residue.

Alternatively you add calcium oxide which binds chemically with the
water and the resulting calcium hydroxide can be filtered off, allowing
the filtrate to be re-distilled to extract pure ethanol.


I'm not sure whether ethanol/water forms a similar azeotrope for
freezing, and whether you can separate them by freezing, since ethanol
and water (separately) freeze at different temperatures.

No you can't get rid of the last of the water that way. Thats why
benzene is used to produce absolute alcohol, no water at all.

I remember an ice-cream van owner where we bought an ice cream telling
my dad about separating alcohol from water by freezing in a deep-freeze,

Yeah, but distillation works better and is easier to organise too.

It may be more effective, but not as easy as putting a pot of alcohol
water mixture in a freezer and decanting off a strong ethanol liquor.

When you have the still, it is in fact much easier. Just tip what has been
fermented into the still, discard the first run from the still, watch the
digital thermometer to see when the still temp starts rising again when
the ethanol has stopped coming off, turn off the still. Even you should
be able to manage that.

On 02-Oct-17 2:21 PM, Huge wrote:
On 2017-10-02, Jethro_uk wrote:

[35 lines snipped]

The only scare stories about dodgy distillation comes from the dodgy
people (criminals) involved in making a quick buck from it. From the
legion of UK home distillers .... nada. Not a peep.

I'm not sure I'm prepared to make a possibly fatal decision on the
basis of the feedback from those engaged in an illegal activity.


Unless wood or pectin has been used in the wort the amount of Methanol
in the fermentation is low enough to not be a real issue. It's present
in beers and wine and the liver metabolises ethanol in preference to
methanol, ethanol is the antidote. Most of of the methanol boils off
first and can be discarded.

The major problem with illegal sources is often they haven't used a
still but simply stolen industrial alcohol - methanol. There are plenty
of stories about the use of anti-freeze to make "wine".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_d...l_wine_scandal
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands.../foodanddrink2

On 2017-10-02, Peter Hill wrote:

On 02-Oct-17 4:47 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 02/10/2017 12:54, NY wrote:
"Ade" wrote in message news

Ethanol bp is 78c which is why it isÂ* so easy to seperate from
Methanol at 64c when brewing.

And the boiling point of ethanol/water mixture at its 95/5% mixture is
fractionally *lower* than for pure ethanol (78.2 for the mixture, 78.4
for pure ethanol) so you can never get pure ethanol by simple
distillation. Apparently the way round this is add an "entrainer" such
as benzene or cyclohexane which preferentially binds with the water.
This triple mixture boils at 62 degrees and the water/benzene boils
off, leaving (in theory) pure ethanol as a residue.

Snag is you really don't want any benzene in drinking quality ethanol.

But don't you want 99%+ ethanol for drinking. The only reason to want
99.9% pure is for further chemical process or fuel.

Even the "rocket fuel" grades for consumption don't exceed 80% by
volume. Normal spirits on the shelf are around 40%-50% by volume.

There is a product in the US called "Everclear" that's 95% ABV (not
available in all states, labelled as intended for making your own
cordials & such).

On 03/10/2017 05:14, Rod Speed wrote:


"Fredxxx" wrote in message
news
On 03/10/2017 01:21, Rod Speed wrote:


"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...
"Ade" wrote in message
news On 01/10/2017 23:09, jim wrote:
Tim Streater Wrote in message:
In article , Jethro_uk
wrote:

Annoyingly, it's very hard to get all the water out of ethanol/water
due
to the boiling point of the mixture being slightly lower than
the boiling
point of water (96C IIRC). Azoetrope IIRC again ....

Isn't the boiling point if ethanol even lower?


:-)


Ethanol bp is 78c which is why it isÂ* so easy to seperate from
Methanol at 64c when brewing.

And the boiling point of ethanol/water mixture at its 95/5% mixture
is fractionally *lower* than for pure ethanol (78.2 for the mixture,
78.4 for pure ethanol) so you can never get pure ethanol by simple
distillation. Apparently the way round this is add an "entrainer"
such as benzene or cyclohexane which preferentially binds with the
water. This triple mixture boils at 62 degrees and the water/benzene
boils off, leaving (in theory) pure ethanol as a residue.

Alternatively you add calcium oxide which binds chemically with the
water and the resulting calcium hydroxide can be filtered off,
allowing the filtrate to be re-distilled to extract pure ethanol.


I'm not sure whether ethanol/water forms a similar azeotrope for
freezing, and whether you can separate them by freezing, since
ethanol and water (separately) freeze at different temperatures.

No you can't get rid of the last of the water that way. Thats why
benzene is used to produce absolute alcohol, no water at all.

I remember an ice-cream van owner where we bought an ice cream
telling my dad about separating alcohol from water by freezing in a
deep-freeze,

Yeah, but distillation works better and is easier to organise too.

It may be more effective, but not as easy as putting a pot of alcohol
water mixture in a freezer and decanting off a strong ethanol liquor.

When you have the still, it is in fact much easier. Just tip what has been
fermented into the still, discard the first run from the still, watch the
digital thermometer to see when the still temp starts rising again when
the ethanol has stopped coming off, turn off the still. Even you should
be able to manage that.

Yes, I have distilled in the past. Comparing the two it's much easier to
put a container in a freezer.

Perhaps its a UK thing, we're more likely to own a freezer than own a still.

Stills are notoriously dangerous.

"Fredxxx" wrote in message
news
On 03/10/2017 05:14, Rod Speed wrote:


"Fredxxx" wrote in message
news
On 03/10/2017 01:21, Rod Speed wrote:


"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...
"Ade" wrote in message
news On 01/10/2017 23:09, jim wrote:
Tim Streater Wrote in message:
In article , Jethro_uk
wrote:

Annoyingly, it's very hard to get all the water out of
ethanol/water
due
to the boiling point of the mixture being slightly lower than the
boiling
point of water (96C IIRC). Azoetrope IIRC again ....

Isn't the boiling point if ethanol even lower?


:-)


Ethanol bp is 78c which is why it is so easy to seperate from
Methanol at 64c when brewing.

And the boiling point of ethanol/water mixture at its 95/5% mixture is
fractionally *lower* than for pure ethanol (78.2 for the mixture, 78.4
for pure ethanol) so you can never get pure ethanol by simple
distillation. Apparently the way round this is add an "entrainer" such
as benzene or cyclohexane which preferentially binds with the water.
This triple mixture boils at 62 degrees and the water/benzene boils
off, leaving (in theory) pure ethanol as a residue.

Alternatively you add calcium oxide which binds chemically with the
water and the resulting calcium hydroxide can be filtered off,
allowing the filtrate to be re-distilled to extract pure ethanol.


I'm not sure whether ethanol/water forms a similar azeotrope for
freezing, and whether you can separate them by freezing, since ethanol
and water (separately) freeze at different temperatures.

No you can't get rid of the last of the water that way. Thats why
benzene is used to produce absolute alcohol, no water at all.

I remember an ice-cream van owner where we bought an ice cream telling
my dad about separating alcohol from water by freezing in a
deep-freeze,

Yeah, but distillation works better and is easier to organise too.

It may be more effective, but not as easy as putting a pot of alcohol
water mixture in a freezer and decanting off a strong ethanol liquor.

When you have the still, it is in fact much easier. Just tip what has
been
fermented into the still, discard the first run from the still, watch the
digital thermometer to see when the still temp starts rising again when
the ethanol has stopped coming off, turn off the still. Even you should
be able to manage that.

Yes, I have distilled in the past. Comparing the two it's much easier to
put a container in a freezer.

The problem isnt putting it in the freezer, even you can manage that.

The problem is with how much fits in the freezer and keeping
on doing that with the entire batch you ferment, stupid.

Stills are notoriously dangerous.

Ony for terminal ****wits like you.

"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...
But don't you want 99%+ ethanol for drinking. The only reason to want
99.9% pure is for further chemical process or fuel.

Even the "rocket fuel" grades for consumption don't exceed 80% by
volume. Normal spirits on the shelf are around 40%-50% by volume.

There is a product in the US called "Everclear" that's 95% ABV (not
available in all states, labelled as intended for making your own
cordials & such).

That would be STRONG. When we were on a cruise to the Caribbean, we went on
a tour on one island which included a trip round a rum distillery. And we
were given the chance to taste the end product - the stronger "for locals
only, not for export" variety. I can't remember what strength it was, but it
was powerful stuff. I think a figure of 70 was mentioned, but I'm not sure
whether that was ABV or proof. What made it all the better was that one of
our group was a rather strange guy who could easily have been a Methodist
preacher from the 1800s in another life, and he went round to each one of
us, urging us not to touch "the evil alcohol", which made a lot of us have
another glass just to spite him. You always get at least one weirdo on any
cruise :-)

On 03/10/2017 08:29, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2017-10-02, Peter Hill wrote:

On 02-Oct-17 4:47 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 02/10/2017 12:54, NY wrote:
"Ade" wrote in message news
Ethanol bp is 78c which is why it isÂ* so easy to seperate from
Methanol at 64c when brewing.

And the boiling point of ethanol/water mixture at its 95/5% mixture is
fractionally *lower* than for pure ethanol (78.2 for the mixture, 78.4
for pure ethanol) so you can never get pure ethanol by simple
distillation. Apparently the way round this is add an "entrainer" such
as benzene or cyclohexane which preferentially binds with the water.
This triple mixture boils at 62 degrees and the water/benzene boils
off, leaving (in theory) pure ethanol as a residue.

Snag is you really don't want any benzene in drinking quality ethanol.

But don't you want 99%+ ethanol for drinking. The only reason to want
99.9% pure is for further chemical process or fuel.

Even the "rocket fuel" grades for consumption don't exceed 80% by
volume. Normal spirits on the shelf are around 40%-50% by volume.

There is a product in the US called "Everclear" that's 95% ABV (not
available in all states, labelled as intended for making your own
cordials & such).

"Polish spirit" here in Europe. (That's, as made in Poland, not as made
for polishing).

On 2017-10-03, newshound wrote:

On 03/10/2017 08:29, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2017-10-02, Peter Hill wrote:

But don't you want 99%+ ethanol for drinking. The only reason to want
99.9% pure is for further chemical process or fuel.

Even the "rocket fuel" grades for consumption don't exceed 80% by
volume. Normal spirits on the shelf are around 40%-50% by volume.

There is a product in the US called "Everclear" that's 95% ABV (not
available in all states, labelled as intended for making your own
cordials & such).

"Polish spirit" here in Europe. (That's, as made in Poland, not as made
for polishing).

It might work for removing polish.

On Tue, 3 Oct 2017 12:27:12 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
wrote:


The Polish have a thing called "rectified spirits" ISTR.

On holiday in Scotland, was amused to see pubs had guest Scotchs ... I
tried one at 48% abv ...

Cask strength around 65 -67% is fairly easy to obtain , the present
batch of "As we get It" is advertised at 65.1 .
https://www.masterofmalt.com/whiskie...d-65-1-whisky/

One cask strength bottle from a distiller I have forgotten came with
a floating hydrometer in the box to assist in diluting it.

G.Harman

On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 12:31:12 PM UTC+1, NY wrote:
"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...
But don't you want 99%+ ethanol for drinking. The only reason to want
99.9% pure is for further chemical process or fuel.

Even the "rocket fuel" grades for consumption don't exceed 80% by
volume. Normal spirits on the shelf are around 40%-50% by volume.

There is a product in the US called "Everclear" that's 95% ABV (not
available in all states, labelled as intended for making your own
cordials & such).

That would be STRONG. When we were on a cruise to the Caribbean, we went on
a tour on one island which included a trip round a rum distillery. And we
were given the chance to taste the end product - the stronger "for locals
only, not for export" variety. I can't remember what strength it was, but it
was powerful stuff. I think a figure of 70 was mentioned, but I'm not sure
whether that was ABV or proof. What made it all the better was that one of
our group was a rather strange guy who could easily have been a Methodist
preacher from the 1800s in another life, and he went round to each one of
us, urging us not to touch "the evil alcohol", which made a lot of us have
another glass just to spite him. You always get at least one weirdo on any
cruise :-)

70 degrees proof is about 40% ABV, which is nothing special, but 70% ABV is 123 degrees proof, so that might be it.