Am homebrewing biodiesel and therefore have a drum of methanol on hand.
Since methanol burns much cleaner than gasoline in an IC engine, it occurs
to me that fueling my lawn tractor with the stuff might reduce the raw
exhaust fumes that I don't enjoy breathing much and which makes the clothes
stink. However, maybe the methanol is not engine friendly (seals and hoses
I suspect). I've tried it with a walkbehind mower and it seems to work well
(engine runs OK and much less stink). Was wondering if anyone had any
advice or suggestions?

TIA for any help.....

Laurie Forbes

"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:SMqte.65840$HI.42443@edtnps84...
Am homebrewing biodiesel and therefore have a drum of methanol on hand.
Since methanol burns much cleaner than gasoline in an IC engine, it occurs
to me that fueling my lawn tractor with the stuff might reduce the raw
exhaust fumes that I don't enjoy breathing much and which makes the
clothes
stink. However, maybe the methanol is not engine friendly (seals and
hoses
I suspect). I've tried it with a walkbehind mower and it seems to work
well
(engine runs OK and much less stink). Was wondering if anyone had any
advice or suggestions?

TIA for any help.....

Laurie Forbes



If your lawnmower is producing that much noticable exhaust, it needs the
attention of a good mechanic.

I'll bet your insurance agent would love to hear that you are 'homebrewing'
and storing untested volatile fuels.

-Carl (who homebrews-and tests- light and dark ales)

Carl Byrns wrote:

"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:SMqte.65840$HI.42443@edtnps84...

Am homebrewing biodiesel and therefore have a drum of methanol on hand.
Since methanol burns much cleaner than gasoline in an IC engine, it occurs
to me that fueling my lawn tractor with the stuff might reduce the raw
exhaust fumes that I don't enjoy breathing much and which makes the

clothes

stink. However, maybe the methanol is not engine friendly (seals and

hoses

I suspect). I've tried it with a walkbehind mower and it seems to work

well

(engine runs OK and much less stink). Was wondering if anyone had any
advice or suggestions?

TIA for any help.....

Laurie Forbes




If your lawnmower is producing that much noticable exhaust, it needs the
attention of a good mechanic.

Not necessarily true. Lawnmowers have *no*
significant emissions controls and some people
are more sensitive than others to the smell.

I'll bet your insurance agent would love to hear that you are 'homebrewing'
and storing untested volatile fuels.

Non sequitur and purely an assumption.

"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:SMqte.65840$HI.42443@edtnps84...
Am homebrewing biodiesel and therefore have a drum of methanol on hand.
Since methanol burns much cleaner than gasoline in an IC engine, it occurs
to me that fueling my lawn tractor with the stuff might reduce the raw
exhaust fumes that I don't enjoy breathing much and which makes the
clothes stink. However, maybe the methanol is not engine friendly (seals
and hoses I suspect). I've tried it with a walkbehind mower and it seems
to work well (engine runs OK and much less stink). Was wondering if
anyone had any advice or suggestions?

TIA for any help.....

Laurie Forbes

Any carbureted engine can run methanol.
To get the same power as gasoline, you need to increase the main jet
diameter.
Try mixing methanol with gasoline 50:50 first.
100 percent methanol could be very hard to start in cold weather, or even
impossible.

Good one, Carl! Great start for a hot Monday morning - it sort of reminds
one there is a chance for some enjoyment later in the day.

Bob Swinney
"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
news:58rte.11061$aR1.8844@trndny02...

"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:SMqte.65840$HI.42443@edtnps84...
Am homebrewing biodiesel and therefore have a drum of methanol on hand.
Since methanol burns much cleaner than gasoline in an IC engine, it
occurs
to me that fueling my lawn tractor with the stuff might reduce the raw
exhaust fumes that I don't enjoy breathing much and which makes the
clothes
stink. However, maybe the methanol is not engine friendly (seals and
hoses
I suspect). I've tried it with a walkbehind mower and it seems to work
well
(engine runs OK and much less stink). Was wondering if anyone had any
advice or suggestions?

TIA for any help.....

Laurie Forbes



If your lawnmower is producing that much noticable exhaust, it needs the
attention of a good mechanic.

I'll bet your insurance agent would love to hear that you are
'homebrewing'
and storing untested volatile fuels.

-Carl (who homebrews-and tests- light and dark ales)

If you don't like the exhaust fumes from gasoline, you are really not
going to like the exhaust from methanol. One of the main compononents
is formeldyhyde. It makes your eyes burn something awful.

I know ethanol is really bad for any rubber in the fuel system, and
suspect that methanol is as well. It dries out the rubber, and will it
to shrink and/or break down.

JW

GrumpyOldGeek wrote:

If your lawnmower is producing that much noticable exhaust, it needs the
attention of a good mechanic.


Not necessarily true. Lawnmowers have *no*
significant emissions controls and some people
are more sensitive than others to the smell.

I'll bet your insurance agent would love to hear that you are
'homebrewing'
and storing untested volatile fuels.

I run methanol in my race car. Methanol exhaust has noxious aromatic
components that are really irritating to eyes and lungs. These are not
regulated, but they are there in methanol exhaust. You trade less CO
and NOX for more aromatics, which may be carcinogens.

Methanol is bad on plastic and rubber, but if engine doesn't have them
it may be okay. Jets need to be drilled out 40% larger in diameter
(double in area) as mixture ratio needs to be about twice the fuel as
with gasoline (yeah, it will really gobble up the fuel). It actually
puts out MORE C02 (greenhouse gas) than gasoline.

bw wrote:
"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:SMqte.65840$HI.42443@edtnps84...

Am homebrewing biodiesel and therefore have a drum of methanol on hand.
Since methanol burns much cleaner than gasoline in an IC engine, it occurs
to me that fueling my lawn tractor with the stuff might reduce the raw
exhaust fumes that I don't enjoy breathing much and which makes the
clothes stink. However, maybe the methanol is not engine friendly (seals
and hoses I suspect). I've tried it with a walkbehind mower and it seems
to work well (engine runs OK and much less stink). Was wondering if
anyone had any advice or suggestions?

TIA for any help.....

Laurie Forbes


Any carbureted engine can run methanol.
To get the same power as gasoline, you need to increase the main jet
diameter.
Try mixing methanol with gasoline 50:50 first.
100 percent methanol could be very hard to start in cold weather, or even
impossible.


True. One does not run methanol in cold weather without some sort of
alternate starting system.

jw wrote:
If you don't like the exhaust fumes from gasoline, you are really not
going to like the exhaust from methanol. One of the main compononents
is formeldyhyde. It makes your eyes burn something awful.

I know ethanol is really bad for any rubber in the fuel system, and
suspect that methanol is as well. It dries out the rubber, and will it
to shrink and/or break down.

JW



Standard practice in race cars is to drain fuel if it will not be used
again soon, use good alcohol-proof filters, clean or replace them
FREQUENTLY.

"GrumpyOldGeek" wrote in message
...
Carl Byrns wrote:

"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:SMqte.65840$HI.42443@edtnps84...

Am homebrewing biodiesel and therefore have a drum of methanol on hand.
Since methanol burns much cleaner than gasoline in an IC engine, it
occurs
to me that fueling my lawn tractor with the stuff might reduce the raw
exhaust fumes that I don't enjoy breathing much and which makes the

clothes

stink. However, maybe the methanol is not engine friendly (seals and

hoses

I suspect). I've tried it with a walkbehind mower and it seems to work

well

(engine runs OK and much less stink). Was wondering if anyone had any
advice or suggestions?

TIA for any help.....

Laurie Forbes




If your lawnmower is producing that much noticable exhaust, it needs the
attention of a good mechanic.

Not necessarily true. Lawnmowers have *no*
significant emissions controls and some people
are more sensitive than others to the smell.

Quite so except it has no emissions control at all, has acted this way since
new and smells the same as any other "untreated" gasoline exhaust fumes.

I'll bet your insurance agent would love to hear that you are
'homebrewing'
and storing untested volatile fuels.

Non sequitur and purely an assumption.

Also true but I'll be sure to let him know in any case

"bw" wrote in message
...

"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:SMqte.65840$HI.42443@edtnps84...
Am homebrewing biodiesel and therefore have a drum of methanol on hand.
Since methanol burns much cleaner than gasoline in an IC engine, it
occurs
to me that fueling my lawn tractor with the stuff might reduce the raw
exhaust fumes that I don't enjoy breathing much and which makes the
clothes stink. However, maybe the methanol is not engine friendly (seals
and hoses I suspect). I've tried it with a walkbehind mower and it seems
to work well (engine runs OK and much less stink). Was wondering if
anyone had any advice or suggestions?

TIA for any help.....

Laurie Forbes

Any carbureted engine can run methanol.
To get the same power as gasoline, you need to increase the main jet
diameter.

I've found that adjusting the mixture screw towards rich solved stalling
problems I was having at first. Also, I need to leave the choke partially
engaged until the engine warms up.

Try mixing methanol with gasoline 50:50 first.
100 percent methanol could be very hard to start in cold weather, or even
impossible.

Quite so but since this is for lawn mowing only, it should not be a problem.
..

"jw" wrote in message
ups.com...
If you don't like the exhaust fumes from gasoline, you are really not
going to like the exhaust from methanol. One of the main compononents
is formeldyhyde. It makes your eyes burn something awful.

I don't know - so far I'm pleased with the results with no stink or eye
irritation. We will see (I hope I guess.

I know ethanol is really bad for any rubber in the fuel system, and
suspect that methanol is as well. It dries out the rubber, and will it
to shrink and/or break down.

JW

"GrumpyOldGeek" wrote in message
...
Carl Byrns wrote:

If your lawnmower is producing that much noticable exhaust, it needs the
attention of a good mechanic.

Not necessarily true. Lawnmowers have *no*
significant emissions controls

Wrong-o. Newer small engines are subject to emissions laws (thanks,
Kalifornia!) and feature fixed main jet carburetion, ignition timing control
(some of the newer ignition assemblies are pretty sophisticated) and the
muffler may be coated with a catalytic material. Further, it's illegal to
sell older-design engines that can't meet the new standard. Short block,
yes, complete engine, no.
Kohler has been selling a electronically fuel-injected V-twin for some time
now and then general consensus is carbs are going to be history on any
engine of less than 15 hp.
The company I work for sells Briggs & Stratton, Kohler, Tecumseh, Ford,
Shindiawa, Mitsubishi, Kubota, and Gawd alone knows what, so I'm pretty up
to date on this stuff.

and some people are more sensitive than others to the smell.

Which begs the question to the OP "If gasoline exhaust bothers you, why
doesn't alcohol (which is far worse)?"

I'll bet your insurance agent would love to hear that you are
'homebrewing'
and storing untested volatile fuels.

Non sequitur and purely an assumption.

Not hardly. Ask your insurance agent how his/her company feels about the
subject.
Along the same lines, how do you feel about having a neighbor cooking up
their own fuels (or making crack- that's one dangerous hobby right there!).
I've got a fair amount of blood, sweat and hard earned money invested in my
humble abode and I'd be mighty ****ed off if the nutjob next door burned my
house down while playing Exxon in the basement.

-Carl

"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...
Good one, Carl! Great start for a hot Monday morning - it sort of reminds
one there is a chance for some enjoyment later in the day.

Bob Swinney

My Monday was a train wreck.
The high point of my day was the aforementioned ale when I got home
(homebrew pilsner, not unlike Bass ale- the older UK import, not the US
brewed stuff).

Carl

"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
news:m1Lte.17416$fa3.9647@trndny01...

"GrumpyOldGeek" wrote in message
...
Carl Byrns wrote:

If your lawnmower is producing that much noticable exhaust, it needs
the
attention of a good mechanic.

Not necessarily true. Lawnmowers have *no*
significant emissions controls

Wrong-o. Newer small engines are subject to emissions laws (thanks,
Kalifornia!) and feature fixed main jet carburetion, ignition timing
control
(some of the newer ignition assemblies are pretty sophisticated) and the
muffler may be coated with a catalytic material.

All of which has nothing to do with my case (as OP) as my lawn tractor is at
least 15 yrs old.

and some people are more sensitive than others to the smell.

Which begs the question to the OP "If gasoline exhaust bothers you, why
doesn't alcohol (which is far worse)?"

Who says it's "far worse". I notice little or no fumes at all. And, is it
not methanol that is typically used with fondue heaters (usually indoors no
less)?

I'll bet your insurance agent would love to hear that you are
'homebrewing'
and storing untested volatile fuels.

Do you know anything at all about biodiesel or biodiesel production??

Non sequitur and purely an assumption.

Not hardly. Ask your insurance agent how his/her company feels about the
subject.
Along the same lines, how do you feel about having a neighbor cooking up
their own fuels (or making crack- that's one dangerous hobby right
there!).
I've got a fair amount of blood, sweat and hard earned money invested in
my
humble abode and I'd be mighty ****ed off if the nutjob next door burned
my
house down while playing Exxon in the basement.

Still more assumptions. If that "nutjob" you haughtily refer to is me, rest
easy as it's not nearly as dangerous as you seem to imagine. As well, all
work is carried out in a well ventalated detached garage and, on an acreage
so lots of space between houses. I would not be so stupid as to "play
Exxon" in my basement.

But no, wait! The aforementioned methanol is mixed with caustic soda
(before adding to the vegtable oil) forming sodium methoxide so nobody's
house or car paint is safe.

BTW, I'm also a Chem Eng so I think I can handle it..........

Laurie Forbes wrote:

Which begs the question to the OP "If gasoline exhaust bothers you, why
doesn't alcohol (which is far worse)?"


Who says it's "far worse". I notice little or no fumes at all. And, is it
not methanol that is typically used with fondue heaters (usually indoors no
less)?

Canned fuel burns at atmospheric pressure. Methanol in IC engines is
burned at high temps and high compression ratios.

If you're a ChemE then you should know that there's no way in hell that
your engine will run on methanol if was set-up for gasoline and working
properly.
Since your engine does run well on methanol, you know that there's
something seriously wrong with the carburetor... and the fact that it would
have been running about 40% too rich on gasoline probably accounts for the
original problem... excess gasoline making fumes that bother you.
When we purge the methanol out of our carbs with gasoline... it's almost
impossible to keep the engine running because all of the jets and passages
have been opened up to accommodate the extra flow required for running on
methanol.
Running straight methanol in an engine that's properly tuned for
gasoline would probably result in engine damage... if it ran at all, it
would be very lean.


"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:uBMte.70019$HI.39070@edtnps84...

"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
news:m1Lte.17416$fa3.9647@trndny01...

"GrumpyOldGeek" wrote in message
...
Carl Byrns wrote:

If your lawnmower is producing that much noticable exhaust, it needs
the
attention of a good mechanic.

Not necessarily true. Lawnmowers have *no*
significant emissions controls

Wrong-o. Newer small engines are subject to emissions laws (thanks,
Kalifornia!) and feature fixed main jet carburetion, ignition timing
control
(some of the newer ignition assemblies are pretty sophisticated) and the
muffler may be coated with a catalytic material.

All of which has nothing to do with my case (as OP) as my lawn tractor is
at least 15 yrs old.

and some people are more sensitive than others to the smell.

Which begs the question to the OP "If gasoline exhaust bothers you, why
doesn't alcohol (which is far worse)?"

Who says it's "far worse". I notice little or no fumes at all. And, is
it not methanol that is typically used with fondue heaters (usually
indoors no less)?

I'll bet your insurance agent would love to hear that you are
'homebrewing'
and storing untested volatile fuels.

Do you know anything at all about biodiesel or biodiesel production??

Non sequitur and purely an assumption.

Not hardly. Ask your insurance agent how his/her company feels about the
subject.
Along the same lines, how do you feel about having a neighbor cooking up
their own fuels (or making crack- that's one dangerous hobby right
there!).
I've got a fair amount of blood, sweat and hard earned money invested in
my
humble abode and I'd be mighty ****ed off if the nutjob next door burned
my
house down while playing Exxon in the basement.

Still more assumptions. If that "nutjob" you haughtily refer to is me,
rest easy as it's not nearly as dangerous as you seem to imagine. As
well, all work is carried out in a well ventalated detached garage and, on
an acreage so lots of space between houses. I would not be so stupid as
to "play Exxon" in my basement.

But no, wait! The aforementioned methanol is mixed with caustic soda
(before adding to the vegtable oil) forming sodium methoxide so nobody's
house or car paint is safe.

BTW, I'm also a Chem Eng so I think I can handle it..........

David Courtney wrote in message
...
If you're a ChemE then you should know that there's no way in hell
that
your engine will run on methanol if was set-up for gasoline and working
properly.

True but irrelevant since it did not run well initially (stalling and
surging under load; choke had to be partially engaged until engine
completely warmed up). Same with my walkbehind mower (which I converted to
meth first).

Since your engine does run well on methanol, you know that there's
something seriously wrong with the carburetor... and the fact that it
would
have been running about 40% too rich on gasoline probably accounts for the
original problem... excess gasoline making fumes that bother you.

That's possible but not likely as I adjusted the mixture screw shortly after
buying the machine due to the fumes and percieved high fuel consumption.. I
doubt in any case that was ever 40% rich as there was never any visible
carbon in the exhaust. You may have missed the part where I said I had to
adjust the mixture screw (outwards; richer) to get it to run properly on
meth (still however have to leave it partially choked, longer than with
gasoline, until engine gets good and warm).

When we purge the methanol out of our carbs with gasoline... it's
almost
impossible to keep the engine running because all of the jets and passages
have been opened up to accommodate the extra flow required for running on
methanol.
Running straight methanol in an engine that's properly tuned for
gasoline would probably result in engine damage... if it ran at all, it
would be very lean.

Don Stauffer wrote in message
...
Laurie Forbes wrote:

Which begs the question to the OP "If gasoline exhaust bothers you, why
doesn't alcohol (which is far worse)?"


Who says it's "far worse". I notice little or no fumes at all. And, is
it
not methanol that is typically used with fondue heaters (usually indoors
no
less)?

Canned fuel burns at atmospheric pressure. Methanol in IC engines is
burned at high temps and high compression ratios.

Quite so but I still notice practically no fumes at all with the meth (maybe
my nose is defective).

"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:uBMte.70019$HI.39070@edtnps84...

"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
news:m1Lte.17416$fa3.9647@trndny01...


All of which has nothing to do with my case (as OP) as my lawn tractor is
at
least 15 yrs old.

Which means it's worn out. Even the best air cooled engine (and most garden
tractors do not use the best grade engine) won't last that long. Things
like the valve guides, camshaft gear wear, crankshaft bushing/bearing wear,
throttle bushing wear (and air leaks) and more all have some degree of
influence on combustion efficiency and exhaust quality.
Not to mention that the methanol will do a dandy job of cleaning 15+ years
of accumulated crud right out of the fuel system and dumping it into the
most expensive and delicate part- the carburetor. Or that unburned fuel will
leak past the rings and into the crankcase where it can wreak all kinds of
havoc.

Which begs the question to the OP "If gasoline exhaust bothers you, why
doesn't alcohol (which is far worse)?"

Who says it's "far worse". I notice little or no fumes at all. And, is
it
not methanol that is typically used with fondue heaters (usually indoors
no
less)?

Fondue heaters typically are not pressurized-combustion engines, nor do they
introduce lube oil into the exhaust, nor do they burn their fuel at anything
near as high a temperature.
Alcohol, as someone else pointed out, forms formaldehyde during combustion.
Surely that smells worse than gasoline engine exhaust.

Still more assumptions. If that "nutjob" you haughtily refer to is me,

No assumptions- someone without your degree of training might try this with
spectacular results.
Do ask your agent about this and prove me wrong.

BTW, I'm also a Chem Eng so I think I can handle it..........

So was my dad (electrochemist, lots of patents) but he had a rather fuzzy
idea how machinery worked.

Speaking of assumptions, you are assuming that your 15 year old engine is in
perfect condition and the reason the exhaust smells is the fuel when it
could very well be something else.
Without _knowing_ that the engine is in good mechanical condition or
adjusted properly you cannot generate any meaningful data- actually it
sounds like you are making the experiment fit the desired results.
But, hey, it's your money- have at it.

-Carl

"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
news:gB3ue.655$Z.582@trndny05...



All of which has nothing to do with my case (as OP) as my lawn tractor is
at
least 15 yrs old.

Which means it's worn out.

More wrong assumptions - the engine runs just as well now as it did when I
bought it (same gasoline fumes as when new; does not burn a drop of oil,
rest of the mower is not quite so good though).

Even the best air cooled engine (and most garden
tractors do not use the best grade engine) won't last that long.

Maybe it depends on the service and work load. See above - my walkbehind
mower is about 30 yo. It also still runs well (starts easily, does not burn
oil, the only part that's worn is the muffler).

Things like the valve guides, camshaft gear wear, crankshaft
bushing/bearing wear,
throttle bushing wear (and air leaks) and more all have some degree of
influence on combustion efficiency and exhaust quality.
Not to mention that the methanol will do a dandy job of cleaning 15+ years
of accumulated crud right out of the fuel system and dumping it into the
most expensive and delicate part- the carburetor. Or that unburned fuel
will
leak past the rings and into the crankcase where it can wreak all kinds of
havoc.

Which begs the question to the OP "If gasoline exhaust bothers you, why
doesn't alcohol (which is far worse)?"

Who says it's "far worse". I notice little or no fumes at all. And, is
it
not methanol that is typically used with fondue heaters (usually indoors
no
less)?

Fondue heaters typically are not pressurized-combustion engines, nor do
they
introduce lube oil into the exhaust, nor do they burn their fuel at
anything
near as high a temperature.
Alcohol, as someone else pointed out, forms formaldehyde during
combustion.
Surely that smells worse than gasoline engine exhaust.

It doesn't to me - why do you assume it does? I won't argue with the
formaldehyde formation but unless the amount is quantified it's an
assumption to claim it smells worse than gas exhaust or in fact is
detectable by smell at all.


Still more assumptions. If that "nutjob" you haughtily refer to is me,

No assumptions- someone without your degree of training might try this
with
spectacular results.
Do ask your agent about this and prove me wrong.

BTW, I'm also a Chem Eng so I think I can handle it..........

So was my dad (electrochemist, lots of patents) but he had a rather fuzzy
idea how machinery worked.

Funny you should mention that.........

Speaking of assumptions, you are assuming that your 15 year old engine is
in
perfect condition and the reason the exhaust smells is the fuel when it
could very well be something else.

See above - it smells the same as when I bought it (v similar to my
walkbehind mower BTW).

Without _knowing_ that the engine is in good mechanical condition or
adjusted properly you cannot generate any meaningful data-

I'm not trying to generate data - all I know is that running on methanol
produces far less fumes than gasoline (at least to my nose & eyes). I have
no specific data but it seems reasonable to attribute at least some of the
result to the fact there's v little or no sulphur in methanol. Methanol
also burns "cleaner", probably because it contains oxygen and has a much
higher percentage of hydrogen vs carbon, (formalehyde formation
notwithstanding).

actually it sounds like you are making the experiment fit the desired
results.

Huh??

"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:2g4ue.70816$HI.26770@edtnps84...
but it seems reasonable to attribute at least some of the
result to the fact there's v little or no sulphur in methanol.

Modern gasoline also has very little if any sulfur AFAIK, in fact all
burning oils these days are low, IIRC. Them ol' emissions regulations and
such.

Besides, sulfur (as H2S or SO2/SO3) has a distinctive smell, not the same as
bad combustion.

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:2g4ue.70816$HI.26770@edtnps84...
but it seems reasonable to attribute at least some of the
result to the fact there's v little or no sulphur in methanol.

Modern gasoline also has very little if any sulfur AFAIK, in fact all
burning oils these days are low, IIRC. Them ol' emissions regulations and
such.

Diesel's still pretty high - until 2006 and USLD that is.


Besides, sulfur (as H2S or SO2/SO3) has a distinctive smell, not the same
as
bad combustion.


Come to think of it, the smell I notice is not "sulfurey" - probably mainly
incomplete combustion as you suggest.

Laurie Forbes

"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:r0fue.55380$wr.14585@clgrps12...

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:2g4ue.70816$HI.26770@edtnps84...
but it seems reasonable to attribute at least some of the
result to the fact there's v little or no sulphur in methanol.

Modern gasoline also has very little if any sulfur AFAIK, in fact all
burning oils these days are low, IIRC. Them ol' emissions regulations
and
such.

Diesel's still pretty high - until 2006 and USLD that is.

But your mower doesn't use diesel. Apples to apples...

Besides, sulfur (as H2S or SO2/SO3) has a distinctive smell, not the
same
as
bad combustion.


Come to think of it, the smell I notice is not "sulfurey" - probably
mainly
incomplete combustion as you suggest.

Which is a function of engine condition, not type of fuel.

-Carl

There is not enough adjustment in any carburetor that I've ever worked
on, to allow you to just "adjust" for methanol by turning a mixture screw...
normally jets & passages need to be drilled out to allow enough flow.
Personally, I think you're trolling for an answer you already have in
mind... your story doesn't hold water.
David



"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:mUWte.73269$on1.15303@clgrps13...

David Courtney wrote in message
...
If you're a ChemE then you should know that there's no way in hell
that
your engine will run on methanol if was set-up for gasoline and working
properly.

True but irrelevant since it did not run well initially (stalling and
surging under load; choke had to be partially engaged until engine
completely warmed up). Same with my walkbehind mower (which I converted
to
meth first).

Since your engine does run well on methanol, you know that there's
something seriously wrong with the carburetor... and the fact that it
would
have been running about 40% too rich on gasoline probably accounts for
the
original problem... excess gasoline making fumes that bother you.

That's possible but not likely as I adjusted the mixture screw shortly
after
buying the machine due to the fumes and percieved high fuel consumption..
I
doubt in any case that was ever 40% rich as there was never any visible
carbon in the exhaust. You may have missed the part where I said I had to
adjust the mixture screw (outwards; richer) to get it to run properly on
meth (still however have to leave it partially choked, longer than with
gasoline, until engine gets good and warm).

When we purge the methanol out of our carbs with gasoline... it's
almost
impossible to keep the engine running because all of the jets and
passages
have been opened up to accommodate the extra flow required for running on
methanol.
Running straight methanol in an engine that's properly tuned for
gasoline would probably result in engine damage... if it ran at all, it
would be very lean.

"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
news:r5gue.19308$fa3.1838@trndny01...

"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:r0fue.55380$wr.14585@clgrps12...

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:2g4ue.70816$HI.26770@edtnps84...
but it seems reasonable to attribute at least some of the
result to the fact there's v little or no sulphur in methanol.

Modern gasoline also has very little if any sulfur AFAIK, in fact all
burning oils these days are low, IIRC. Them ol' emissions regulations
and
such.

Diesel's still pretty high - until 2006 and USLD that is.

But your mower doesn't use diesel. Apples to apples...

You certainly are a nitpicker (I was referring to the "all burning oils
these days are low").


Besides, sulfur (as H2S or SO2/SO3) has a distinctive smell, not the
same
as
bad combustion.


Come to think of it, the smell I notice is not "sulfurey" - probably
mainly
incomplete combustion as you suggest.

Which is a function of engine condition, not type of fuel.

And also an inherant property of an internal combustion engine, new or old.
Why do you suppose catalytic converters are required (even for new engines)?

"David Courtney" wrote in message
...

There is not enough adjustment in any carburetor that I've ever worked
on, to allow you to just "adjust" for methanol by turning a mixture
screw... normally jets & passages need to be drilled out to allow enough
flow.
Personally, I think you're trolling for an answer you already have in
mind... your story doesn't hold water.
David

This is a good example of what's wrong with public internet forums,
particualrly Newsgroups. You ask a simple straightforward question and
sometimes get constructive responses. You also too frequently get nagged by
nitwits and busybodies.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:55:51 GMT, Laurie Forbes wrote:

"David Courtney" wrote in message
...

There is not enough adjustment in any carburetor that I've ever worked
on, to allow you to just "adjust" for methanol by turning a mixture
screw... normally jets & passages need to be drilled out to allow enough
flow.

This is a good example of what's wrong with public internet forums,
particualrly Newsgroups. You ask a simple straightforward question and
sometimes get constructive responses. You also too frequently get nagged by
nitwits and busybodies.

Oh, I dunno, looks to me like his observation is accurate. Maybe he's
just not telling you what you want to hear?

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:55:51 GMT, Laurie Forbes
wrote:

"David Courtney" wrote in message
...

There is not enough adjustment in any carburetor that I've ever
worked
on, to allow you to just "adjust" for methanol by turning a mixture
screw... normally jets & passages need to be drilled out to allow enough
flow.

This is a good example of what's wrong with public internet forums,
particualrly Newsgroups. You ask a simple straightforward question and
sometimes get constructive responses. You also too frequently get nagged
by
nitwits and busybodies.

Oh, I dunno, looks to me like his observation is accurate. Maybe he's
just not telling you what you want to hear?

Right - what I'd like to hear is constructive response, not that I'm
considered a troll.

Maybe you and he did not notice I mentioned in a previous post that I've
found it necessary to choke it more than with gas - I never claimed that
adjusting the carb mixture screw would itself produce the optimum mixture.
Maybe you also didn't notice my original question was related to possible
seal and tubing damage, not whether or not the mixture would be great (and
not BTW whether or not my insurance agent would be pleased).

Like I said, ..........

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:58:36 GMT, "Carl Byrns"
wrote:


"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:uBMte.70019$HI.39070@edtnps84...

"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
news:m1Lte.17416$fa3.9647@trndny01...


All of which has nothing to do with my case (as OP) as my lawn tractor is
at
least 15 yrs old.

Which means it's worn out. Even the best air cooled engine (and most garden
tractors do not use the best grade engine) won't last that long. Things
like the valve guides, camshaft gear wear, crankshaft bushing/bearing wear,
throttle bushing wear (and air leaks) and more all have some degree of
influence on combustion efficiency and exhaust quality.
Not to mention that the methanol will do a dandy job of cleaning 15+ years
of accumulated crud right out of the fuel system and dumping it into the
most expensive and delicate part- the carburetor. Or that unburned fuel will
leak past the rings and into the crankcase where it can wreak all kinds of
havoc.


Well, I have an old Pro lawn mower made by some guys down around
Schreveport LA in the late sixties/early seventies with a Briggs and
Stratton engine that has never been apart and it's still running
great. Carb has been replaced, but it doesn't smoke or burn oil yet.
Takes an hour to mow my grass, about10 times a year. I've ownmed it
about 15 years, and it was far from unused when I got it.


Which begs the question to the OP "If gasoline exhaust bothers you, why
doesn't alcohol (which is far worse)?"

Who says it's "far worse". I notice little or no fumes at all. And, is
it
not methanol that is typically used with fondue heaters (usually indoors
no
less)?

Fondue heaters typically are not pressurized-combustion engines, nor do they
introduce lube oil into the exhaust, nor do they burn their fuel at anything
near as high a temperature.
Alcohol, as someone else pointed out, forms formaldehyde during combustion.
Surely that smells worse than gasoline engine exhaust.

Still more assumptions. If that "nutjob" you haughtily refer to is me,

No assumptions- someone without your degree of training might try this with
spectacular results.
Do ask your agent about this and prove me wrong.

BTW, I'm also a Chem Eng so I think I can handle it..........

So was my dad (electrochemist, lots of patents) but he had a rather fuzzy
idea how machinery worked.

Speaking of assumptions, you are assuming that your 15 year old engine is in
perfect condition and the reason the exhaust smells is the fuel when it
could very well be something else.
Without _knowing_ that the engine is in good mechanical condition or
adjusted properly you cannot generate any meaningful data- actually it
sounds like you are making the experiment fit the desired results.
But, hey, it's your money- have at it.

-Carl

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:51:51 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:2g4ue.70816$HI.26770@edtnps84...
but it seems reasonable to attribute at least some of the
result to the fact there's v little or no sulphur in methanol.

Modern gasoline also has very little if any sulfur AFAIK, in fact all
burning oils these days are low, IIRC. Them ol' emissions regulations and
such.

Besides, sulfur (as H2S or SO2/SO3) has a distinctive smell, not the same as
bad combustion.

Tim
Up here in Ontario, gasoline is still quite high in sulphur. Really
stinks if you run rich with a cat.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:34:48 GMT, Laurie Forbes wrote:

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...

Oh, I dunno, looks to me like his observation is accurate. Maybe he's
just not telling you what you want to hear?

Right - what I'd like to hear is constructive response, not that I'm
considered a troll.

Um, how was "you'd have to re-jet the carb, not just adjust it" not a
constructive response? And, based on your responses, it does seem your
mind is already made up regardless of facts. I don't agree that that
makes you a _troll_, specifically, though.

Maybe you and he did not notice I mentioned in a previous post that I've
found it necessary to choke it more than with gas - I never claimed that
adjusting the carb mixture screw would itself produce the optimum mixture.

That's never a good way to get the mixture right, and is showing that
you need to re-jet your carb.

Maybe you also didn't notice my original question was related to possible
seal and tubing damage, not whether or not the mixture would be great (and
not BTW whether or not my insurance agent would be pleased).

OK, well, the thing is, when you ask "I want to do (unwise thing), how
do I (subtle detail of unwise thing)", sometimes the answer is "That is
unwise for (reason, reason, and reason), and you should consider doing
(other thing) instead".

Like I said, ..........

Right. Welcome to Usenet. Double your money back if you don't like the
free advice you asked for.

"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:2g4ue.70816$HI.26770@edtnps84...

"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
news:gB3ue.655$Z.582@trndny05...



More wrong assumptions - the engine runs just as well now as it did when I
bought it (same gasoline fumes as when new; does not burn a drop of oil,
rest of the mower is not quite so good though).

You can remember what something from 15 years ago _smells_ like? I am
impressed.
"does not burn a drop of oil" is pure bull****- all engines use oil and
small air cooled engines use more than their automotive cousins.
While the crankcase *level* may not change much, it is only because unburned
fuel and other by-products tend to keep the level even.

..
Do ask your agent about this and prove me wrong.

Still waiting...

BTW, I'm also a Chem Eng so I think I can handle it..........

So was my dad (electrochemist, lots of patents) but he had a rather
fuzzy
idea how machinery worked.

Funny you should mention that.........

But I do know a bit about fuel systems and engines: I have both Honda and
Ford fuel system certification (and all the prerequisites) and worked with
EFI systems for over a decade.


I'm not trying to generate data - all I know is that running on methanol
produces far less fumes than gasoline (at least to my nose & eyes). I
have
no specific data but it seems reasonable to attribute at least some of the
result to the fact there's v little or no sulphur in methanol.

No data- just a gut feeling. Wow.

Methanol
also burns "cleaner", probably because it contains oxygen and has a much
higher percentage of hydrogen vs carbon, (formalehyde formation
notwithstanding).

Probably? You mean you don't know?
What kind of Chemical Engineer can't spell "formaldehyde" (or use a spel
czecher)?

actually it sounds like you are making the experiment fit the desired
results.

Huh??

You said that switching from gasoline to alcohol eliminated some exhaust
property that "makes the clothes stink".
You concluded that the fuel- and only the fuel- was the reason for this
dramatic change. You reject out of hand any suggestion that the engine
maybe- in all likelihood is- worn past service limits or is out of
adjustment.
You state you are a Chemical Engineer and yet you qualify your results with
phrases like "all I know is... I have no specific data...but it seems
reasonable...probably because..."
You have made statements to this NG that fly in the face of experience and
then whine when called on them.

Frankly, you sound like a troll or a shill for some organization pushing
alcohol as a motor fuel.

-Carl

wrote in message
...
Up here in Ontario, gasoline is still quite high in sulphur. Really
stinks if you run rich with a cat.

Eh, how can that be? Doesn't sulfur poison the cat? Or is that lead?

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Laurie Forbes wrote:
Don Stauffer wrote in message
...

Laurie Forbes wrote:


Which begs the question to the OP "If gasoline exhaust bothers you, why
doesn't alcohol (which is far worse)?"


Who says it's "far worse". I notice little or no fumes at all. And, is

it

not methanol that is typically used with fondue heaters (usually indoors

no

less)?


Canned fuel burns at atmospheric pressure. Methanol in IC engines is
burned at high temps and high compression ratios.


Quite so but I still notice practically no fumes at all with the meth (maybe
my nose is defective).


Actually I find the smell appealing. I've been smelling it all my life.
My dad was a race car driver, and all my life I flew model airplanes,
which also burn methanol for fuel. To me it smells a bit like
overcooked popcorn.

Laurie Forbes wrote:

incomplete combustion as you suggest.


Which is a function of engine condition, not type of fuel.


And also an inherant property of an internal combustion engine, new or old.
Why do you suppose catalytic converters are required (even for new engines)?

Lets put one myth to rest here, however. The efficiency of modern IC
engines is in the 30-40% range. Many folks say this is because the
majority of fuel inducted goes through unburned. This is not true. In
a properly running car engine today, 99+% is burned.

The loss of efficiency occurs AFTER the fuel is burned. Heat is
generated, but only about a third of that heat creates mechanical work,
about one third goes out the exhaust pipe as enthalpy of exhaust gases,
and one third goes into cooling system and is lost through radiator or
heater.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:58:36 GMT, "Carl Byrns"
wrote:


All of which has nothing to do with my case (as OP) as my lawn tractor
is
at
least 15 yrs old.


Which means it's worn out. Even the best air cooled engine (and most
garden
tractors do not use the best grade engine) won't last that long.
..................

Well, I have an old Pro lawn mower made by some guys down around
Schreveport LA in the late sixties/early seventies with a Briggs and
Stratton engine that has never been apart and it's still running
great. Carb has been replaced, but it doesn't smoke or burn oil yet.
Takes an hour to mow my grass, about10 times a year. I've ownmed it
about 15 years, and it was far from unused when I got it.

I may have mentioned my walkbehind mower which is about 30 yo. It gets used
every year, still starts easily, uses no apparent oil and, yes, has stinky
exhaust fumes and always has had (just like my lawn tractor). It's pretty
inane to claim a 15 yo engine must be "worn out" simply because of age (I
suppose if it was run for only 1/2 hour every leap year, it would still be
worn out). In any case, it's not relevant to my situation as I'm comparing
the same engine in both the gasoline and methanol cases - the methanol case
produces far less fumes (according to my nose and eye reaction) and *that*
was the original intent of the exercise.

BTW, both my engines are also B&S, a cheapie one lunger on the walkbehind
and, a Vanguard V-twin on the lawn tractor which also BTW is by far the best
part of the mower. I've always taken good care of them and not pushed them
too hard - maybe that's one reason they have lasted so long.

Have you considered the age of your fuel? If the gas is really old, it
will not burn very well. All of the "good" volatiles dissappear and
what you have left, while combustible, is far less than optimal.

For reference, "really old" isn't that old in gasoline depending on
storage. It could be as little as a month in the summer you have a
vented tank.

As for age of an engine, I think it was generally assumed that this was
a machine that was being used regularly for the last X years, not
something that has sat in storage. So to assume that it was worn is a
fairly safe assumption. Service intervals and expected life of small
engines is very low. General service about every 10 hrs of operation
and overhaul after around 200 hrs. This all assumes proper storage and
care of the machine in the off season. This can have a big effect.

To bring this back to the original question- methanol is probably NOT
good for your engine in the long run. It will clean out all of the
varnish and what not built up in your fuel system attempting to run it
through it and will ruin any rubber in your fuel system.

JW

"jw" wrote in message
oups.com...
Have you considered the age of your fuel? If the gas is really old, it
will not burn very well. All of the "good" volatiles dissappear and
what you have left, while combustible, is far less than optimal.

Now that's something I hadn't thought of. I don't buy gas that often and as
well some of it sits in the tank over winter.

For reference, "really old" isn't that old in gasoline depending on
storage. It could be as little as a month in the summer you have a
vented tank.

As for age of an engine, I think it was generally assumed that this was
a machine that was being used regularly for the last X years, not
something that has sat in storage. So to assume that it was worn is a
fairly safe assumption. Service intervals and expected life of small
engines is very low. General service about every 10 hrs of operation
and overhaul after around 200 hrs. This all assumes proper storage and
care of the machine in the off season. This can have a big effect.

The clock on the mower shows 173 hours which is getting up there by a 200
hour standard. As far as I can recall though, it still runs as well as when
much newer (no knocks or oil burning, no loss of power, starts easily etc)
so it can't be all that bad. That Vanguard V-twin really is a sweet engine
IMO - as I mentioned before, far better than the rest of the mower.

To bring this back to the original question- methanol is probably NOT
good for your engine in the long run. It will clean out all of the
varnish and what not built up in your fuel system attempting to run it
through it and will ruin any rubber in your fuel system.

Yes - those are my concerns. So far so good (only about five hours later
however) but I am going to have to watch the fuel lines and maybe be
prepared to overhaul the carb I guess if it starts running poorly.

I suppose cleaning out the varnish runs the risk of carb plugging (or maybe
other things?)??

BTW, if the engine has a mixture adjust screw, would it also have jet(s).
IOWs is the mixture screw perhaps for idle adjustment only? I'm still a
little uncertain about comments that the engine cannot run properly on
methanol w/o larger jets while it seems to run as normal once fully warmed
up (but it does require more choke to get to that point).

"jw" wrote in message
oups.com...
Have you considered the age of your fuel? If the gas is really old, it
will not burn very well. All of the "good" volatiles dissappear and
what you have left, while combustible, is far less than optimal.

Now that's something I hadn't thought of. I don't buy gas that often and as
well some of it sits in the tank over winter.

For reference, "really old" isn't that old in gasoline depending on
storage. It could be as little as a month in the summer you have a
vented tank.

As for age of an engine, I think it was generally assumed that this was
a machine that was being used regularly for the last X years, not
something that has sat in storage. So to assume that it was worn is a
fairly safe assumption. Service intervals and expected life of small
engines is very low. General service about every 10 hrs of operation
and overhaul after around 200 hrs. This all assumes proper storage and
care of the machine in the off season. This can have a big effect.

The clock on the mower shows 173 hours which is getting up there by a 200
hour standard. As far as I can recall though, it still runs as well as when
much newer (no knocks or oil burning, no loss of power, starts easily etc)
so it can't be all that bad. That Vanguard V-twin really is a sweet engine
IMO - as I mentioned before, far better than the rest of the mower.

To bring this back to the original question- methanol is probably NOT
good for your engine in the long run. It will clean out all of the
varnish and what not built up in your fuel system attempting to run it
through it and will ruin any rubber in your fuel system.

Yes - those are my concerns. So far so good (only about five hours later
however) but I am going to have to watch the fuel lines and maybe be
prepared to overhaul the carb I guess if it starts running poorly.

I suppose cleaning out the varnish runs the risk of carb plugging (or maybe
other things?)??

BTW, if the engine has a mixture adjust screw, would it also have jet(s).
IOWs is the mixture screw perhaps for idle adjustment only? I'm still a
little uncertain about comments that the engine cannot run properly on
methanol w/o larger jets while it seems to run as normal once fully warmed
up (but it does require more choke to get to that point).