In another thread, somebody named Gidget accused me of being smug when
I advised a poster to not play with their furnace.

And, I suppose I was.

But please, allow me to explain (Yes, I'm bored.)

In the winter of 2000, my furnace went out... a furnace I had just
bought in 1998. (I could be off in the exact years here, but the
timespans are accurate).

I had also just lost my job at Sprint; I had ZERO $$$.... I was cold
and I thought that I couldn't afford a service call.

And like so many who had come before me and like so many who would come
after, I posted over in alt.hvac expecting (more like - DEMANDING)
help.

What did I get? I got my ass flamed, thats what I got. And I bitched
and screamed and cried 'BUT THIS IS THE INTERNET YOU HAVE TO ANSWER ME'
and I went on and on and on and on ... for a long time, and eventually,
when it occured to me I couldn't possibly fix the furnace without help,
and that no one was going to give me any help, that I would have to
call for repair.

And so I did. And they swapped out the control board.

BUT NOT BEFORE he replaced the blower cap, and then the blower motor,
which it turned out that neither had anything wrong with them.

And then a week later, it went out again.

And so I called them back.

And a different tech swapped out the control board.

And then another week later, it went out again.

And so I called them back.

And a different tech swapped out the control board and the variable
speed motor controller board.

FAST FORWARD TO WINTER, 2001

My furnace quits. And so I called the same company.

And still another tech comes, swaps the control board.

Are you getting the picture here?

FAST FORWARD TO WINTER, 2002

In the interest of brevity, I'll just say that all boards were replaced
again; this time with factory modified boards that prevented a simple
'swap'. Cables were cut, new connectors installed, boards mounted in
different places. And of course, nothing worked on power up.

After about 4 hours of talk between the tech and some geezer back at
the shop, 3 different techs were on site. Finally a 4th tech showed up,
pulled out a schematic that could just as easily been for the space
shuttle instead of a furnace. And he schooled the 3 other techs. He
schooled them BADLY. And that night I thanked the HVAC gods for finally
sending someone competent.

Bottom line on the whole deal: There was a design flaw in the circuitry
that my furnace used.

FAST FORWARD TO WINTER 2003

New inducer motor. New gas valve. Some other new things I no longer
remember. The only original part on the thing is now the frame.

-----------------

And so, what did I learn?

Lesson 1. If I had gone ahead and swapped the board myself, back in
2000, I would have thought the problem was fixed.

Lesson 1 moral: I would have thought WRONG.

Lesson 2. Even companies that have supposedly well trained techs don't
always know what they are doing. Do I care? Not unless I have to pay
for their incompetence. And I didn't. Never paid a dime for ANY of this
work.

Lesson 2 moral: You might not always pick the best company to do your
work. But if you do it yourself, you are going to pay, sometimes A LOT
more than you ever thought possible.

Lesson 3. After this experience, I made peace over in alt.hvac; and
apologized for my complete and total lack of understanding of exactly
what I was saying when I asked for help. And then I became a lurker
over there, as it is quite fun to watch person after person get their
ass handed to them on a silver platter. Being a lurker, I also read the
bi-weekly reports of joe homeowner burning down his house, killing his
kids, getting electrocuted, suffocating on gas/exhaust fumes - etc...
etc... etc.... all because the dumb ******* thought he could save $150
by fixing it himself. I bet $150 don't seem like a whole lot of $$ when
you are 6 feet under.

Lesson 3 moral: When it comes to HVAC.... don't play with it. Call
someone. These things are no longer a gas valve, a limit switch and a
blower. They are computers which happen to be hooked to gas lines. How
many of you (non mechanics) work on your cars engine (and I don't mean
an oil change)? None of us do. In the pursuit of efficiency, cars have
become too far complex for the average joe to even think about fixing
it.

Why do you think your furnace is any different? Because it's inside
your house?

Well, I'm done ranting.

Let the flames begin!

WRONG.

I know who created the alt.hvac group, and I know why they created it.
I've read the charter.

AND NOWHERE DOES IT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT HELPING ANYONE WITH ANYTHING.

Common sense dictates that: If you have to ask for help fixing
something you shouldn't be touching in the first place - you don't
deserve an answer.

Even if this were not the case, what mandate was created that says they
have to answer you, or that they can't insult you for being a newbie if
they feel like it?

PS: By not answering your questions - THEY ARE helping you.
It's their group.

Ah, the PLONK.

My life isn't complete without a plonk from someone each day.

PS Mark:

1) I know you havn't plonked me.
2) usenet was not created to help people kill themselves.
One day, you will learn.

Subject: Why I dont work on HVAC - - OT AND LONG
Newsgroup: alt.home.repair
= Matt = wrote:

Ah, the PLONK.

My life isn't complete without a plonk from someone each day.


LOL!! Not just the everyday plonk either.
It was your favorite one, the -- *PLONK* --.


--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

ROFL

'Lesson 3 moral: When it comes to HVAC.... don't play with it. Call
someone. These things are no longer a gas valve, a limit switch and a
blower. They are computers which happen to be hooked to gas lines.'

Here here ! Im an HVAC Owner/Serviceman. Modern day furnaces are
computerized and theres a reason for Trade Schools. I appreciate your
frankness and like Clint Eastwood once said in a Dirty Harry movie :" A
man's got to know his limitations " !

'I posted over in alt.hvac expecting (more like - DEMANDING) help.
What did I get? I got my ass flamed, thats what I got. '

Over in Alt.HVAC, you will find many fine examples of hvac servicemen
who represent the darkside of the Trade ; they resent a HO coming to
'their little nest' of a newsgroup . Their attitude gives consumers
something to be gravely concerned about , and, a nightmare thinking
that someone like them might be assigned to fix their furnace. Frankly,
a HO has every right to be cautious when a serviceman comes out -- the
entire service industry is filled with Immoralists having defeatist
attitudes.

In other words - you have the tools and knowledge to fix HVAC and
automobiles yourself?

You attend regular training to keep abrest of changes in the equipment,
and you are certified by the cities and states you work in to do this?

More power to you (Personally, I think you are kidding yourself, but
that's just my opinion).

You sir, are the unique example, and by all means - repair away.

But I ask you to think twice before passing on any of your advice to a
stranger whose abilities or training you have no idea of, and whose
problem you cannot possibly understand, or criticising those who chose
to not 'help' others in their own destruction.

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:02:00 -0600, (DN B) wrote:

'I posted over in alt.hvac expecting (more like - DEMANDING) help.
What did I get? I got my ass flamed, thats what I got. '

Over in Alt.HVAC, you will find many fine examples of hvac servicemen
who represent the darkside of the Trade ; they resent a HO coming to
'their little nest' of a newsgroup . Their attitude gives consumers
something to be gravely concerned about , and, a nightmare thinking
that someone like them might be assigned to fix their furnace. Frankly,
a HO has every right to be cautious when a serviceman comes out -- the
entire service industry is filled with Immoralists having defeatist
attitudes.

and they should be very very wary if you show up, Dave.
Bubba

"Matt" wrote in message

Common sense dictates that: If you have to ask for help fixing
something you shouldn't be touching in the first place - you don't
deserve an answer.

Like all generalizations, this too is untrue. There are many things a
person can need help with and do safely. Some things should not be touched
unless you know how to do it. Everyone had to learn at some point. Every
situation is different. Most mechanical or electrical devices need some
expertise. If I ask how to do "C" and have no clue about "A" or "B", you
may be correct. OTOH, I've done "A" and "B" on numerous occasions, I just
need a little help to do "C".

"DN B" wrote in message
...
'Lesson 3 moral: When it comes to HVAC.... don't play with it. Call
someone. These things are no longer a gas valve, a limit switch and a
blower. They are computers which happen to be hooked to gas lines.'

Here here ! Im an HVAC Owner/Serviceman.

Read HVAC HACK boy!

Modern day furnaces are computerized and theres a reason for Trade
Schools.

It's a pity you never went to one!

And when are you going to post your licence HACK

I appreciate your frankness and like Clint Eastwood once said in a Dirty
Harry movie :" A man's got to know his limitations " !

Yes you should certainly live by that one davey boy!

"DN B" wrote in message
...
'I posted over in alt.hvac expecting (more like - DEMANDING) help. What
did I get? I got my ass flamed, thats what I got. '

Over in Alt.HVAC, you will find many fine examples of hvac servicemen
who represent the darkside of the Trade ; they resent a HO coming to
'their little nest' of a newsgroup .

No Davey boy we are professionals, and the group was set up for
professionals working in the trade, and not for Home Owners or Hacks like
you!

Their attitude gives consumers something to be gravely concerned about ,
and, a nightmare thinking that someone like them might be assigned to fix
their furnace.

Better someone like them than you Asshole! It has been proven time and time
again that you give dangerous advice and you have no idea about the trade!

Frankly, a HO has every right to be cautious when a serviceman comes
out -- the entire service industry is filled with Immoralists having
defeatist attitudes.

We are immoral because we tell you to "**** off"? And tell the world about
your hack work!

What a dork.

Please provide links to those "bi-weekly reports of joe homeowner
burning down his house, killing his kids, getting electrocuted,
suffocating on gas/exhaust fumes - etc...". I've been lurking in
alt.hvac for YEARS and I recall only one such post, and it was later
invalidated.

Servicing residential HVAC equipment isn't rocket science. This stuff
is less complicated that the typical car nowadays.

You had a bunch of these *competent* techs work on your furnace and as
you admit they didn't know what they were doing. Frankly, I'll take my
chances with my own capabilities.

Matt wrote:
snipped

I had also just lost my job at Sprint;

Now, why does that not suprise me....?

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

Oh yeah, and then there is this gem from the OP.....posted without
further comment.

Newsgroups: alt.home.repair
From: (Matt Morgan)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 06:51:29 -0700
Local: Tues, Aug 24 2004 6:51 am
Subject: Compressor start relay

Sorry if this is the wrong newsgroup for this question.....

I have a Kenmore model 106.8590581, whose compressor start relay burnt
up. FSP part no 1105046.

Looking around last night, it appears that they just plain old stopped
making this part. I did find one site that had one...... for

$175!!!!!!!

Jeezy Weezy..... it's just a darn relay.

So... 2 questions:

1) Anyone know a place to get hard to find/obsolete parts?
2) Could a start relay for a compressor with similar electrical
characteristics be used instead? I know it wouldn't fit exactly where
the old one did, but for some reason I have to think this darn relay
isn't as complex as the space shuttle.

Any comments welcome.

Matt
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
From: (Matt Morgan)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 16:48:47 -0700
Local: Mon, Aug 30 2004 4:48 pm
Subject: Compressor start relay

OK All...

Got the new start relay (took the old one apart, completely charred
inside).

Hooked it all back up, and all that happens is the start relay clicks
on and off, on and off.

Reviewing the board for similar problems, I've found 3 steps to take
from he

1) Replace run capacitor.
2) Buy a "hard start" kit to squeeze maybe another year out of the
thing.
3) Call the dump to come pick it up.

I left my ohmmeter at work, so no way to test the cap tonight. Just
thought I'd see if anyone wants to place any bets on how this turns
out.

Option #2 is not something I will consider, BTW

Thanks
Matt
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Matt Morgan Aug 30 2004, 5:33 pm
Newsgroups: alt.home.repair
From: (Matt Morgan)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 17:33:27 -0700
Local: Mon, Aug 30 2004 5:33 pm
Subject: Compressor start relay

Whoops.

Sorry folks, there was a 4th possibility not even counted upon. Not
even Sheriff Obie considered it.

4. Stupid homeowner who has no business messing with compressors,
start relays or capacitors..... realizes that he hooked the new start
relay up wrong.
Fridge is cooling now.

Thanks all, for your help and comments!!!!!!!!

and they should be very very wary if you show up, Dave

not to mention the fact that Dave gives major discounts to the HO, if
they leave their kids at home alone while dave "works"

On 27 Jan 2005 14:48:22 -0800, "Matt" wrote:

ROFL

Hey you ****in moron.......get the **** off your mama's puter and get
back to slammin those burgers!

You are one BIG asshole and if I had a rubber hose I would beat
you.......Now I am LMAO!!!

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Matt" wrote in message

Common sense dictates that: If you have to ask for help fixing
something you shouldn't be touching in the first place - you don't
deserve an answer.

Like all generalizations, this too is untrue. There are many things a
person can need help with and do safely. Some things should not be
touched
unless you know how to do it. Everyone had to learn at some point. Every
situation is different. Most mechanical or electrical devices need some
expertise. If I ask how to do "C" and have no clue about "A" or "B", you
may be correct. OTOH, I've done "A" and "B" on numerous occasions, I just
need a little help to do "C".




Another generalization is that we are all the same! I can fix my car,
trouble shoot computer problems, fix my own HVAC equipment. The next gent
posting about needing help with his furnace may not be able to tie his shoes
by himself, but he wants to fix his furnace!
My father-in-law is one of those people. He thinks he can do it all. When I
happen to help him with something his lack of abilities scare the hell out
of me! He has an electric boiler, with an oil boiler for back up that he
fixes himself. He has screwed up his oil boiler so bad I had no clue why it
even ran when I looked at it. Why he is still alive is a mystery to me. I
have seen him grab 240 volt wiring that is live on his electric boiler. The
only way he did not get electrocuted is he was not grounded. The next time
he may not be so lucky! I refuse to help him over the phone. I will drive
the forty miles to fix something for him just to keep him away from it!
The internet is full of these people, who these people are we have no idea,
untill we read about them in the paper!
Greg

Mark wrote
Anyone playing group netcop and self appointing themselves
as some sort of god who has no time to deal with 'newbies' is
a jackoff and needs to be taken down a few pegs.

=================

Wow, thanks Mark. You said what I've felt for a long time.

I've discovered that my friend who are extremely good at DIY
projects generally have a lot of patience when explaining to
those who are less astute. It is the marginally competent
who seem to get condescending in their "advice."

My father always told me that the smart man shares his
knowledge willingly; the insecure man forms a guild and
is fearful of sharing his bit of wisdom, lest someone
discovers that he isn't really as bright as he pretends to
be.

Gideon

Matt,

I appreciate you sentiment and advice, but I disagree a bit
on your general advice. For those who take the time to
educate themselves and who KNOW their limits, there are
many DIY repairs which we can perform.

I'll also admit that there are many newer devices which are
much more complex than they used to be. I'm facing that
current situation with my cars. Do I invest in high tech
equipment for some of my auto repairs or do I pay for
repairs which I once handled myself? I'm going to buy the
equipment and enjoy the sense of self-sufficiency. I can
rationalize that I enjoy that sense and that I can teach my
son to do some repairs on his own. Others will take a
different approach.

I also intend to do my own install for a new furnace and AC
unit for my house in the next year or so. Among the many
criteria for the new units will be the (hopeful) criteria that
these will be units which I can service most of the time on
my own. Time will tell.

I must take a bit of exception to the somewhat global
doom-and-gloom warnings that you set out for those of us
who choose to work on our own HVAC (auto, etc.) systems.

Morons sometimes kill themselves and their families, but
those of us who are reasonably competent and who are
cognizant of our limitations generally do little or no harm
and save ourselves a small fortune in auto, appliance,
computer and HVAC repairs.

You sound like a person perfectly capable of doing many
maintenance and repair jobs on your own successfully.
Don't give up. It is always very rewarding to be able to
do a fix on your own at 3AM, especially when you can't
get anybody to show up in less than 24 hours (HVAC,
auto, appliance, etc.)

Just my two cents worth.

Gideon


Matt wrote in message om...
In another thread, somebody named Gidget accused me of being smug when
I advised a poster to not play with their furnace.

And, I suppose I was.

But please, allow me to explain (Yes, I'm bored.)

In the winter of 2000, my furnace went out... a furnace I had just
bought in 1998. (I could be off in the exact years here, but the
timespans are accurate).

I had also just lost my job at Sprint; I had ZERO $$$.... I was cold
and I thought that I couldn't afford a service call.

And like so many who had come before me and like so many who would come
after, I posted over in alt.hvac expecting (more like - DEMANDING)
help.

What did I get? I got my ass flamed, thats what I got. And I bitched
and screamed and cried 'BUT THIS IS THE INTERNET YOU HAVE TO ANSWER ME'
and I went on and on and on and on ... for a long time, and eventually,
when it occured to me I couldn't possibly fix the furnace without help,
and that no one was going to give me any help, that I would have to
call for repair.

And so I did. And they swapped out the control board.

BUT NOT BEFORE he replaced the blower cap, and then the blower motor,
which it turned out that neither had anything wrong with them.

And then a week later, it went out again.

And so I called them back.

And a different tech swapped out the control board.

And then another week later, it went out again.

And so I called them back.

And a different tech swapped out the control board and the variable
speed motor controller board.

FAST FORWARD TO WINTER, 2001

My furnace quits. And so I called the same company.

And still another tech comes, swaps the control board.

Are you getting the picture here?

FAST FORWARD TO WINTER, 2002

In the interest of brevity, I'll just say that all boards were replaced
again; this time with factory modified boards that prevented a simple
'swap'. Cables were cut, new connectors installed, boards mounted in
different places. And of course, nothing worked on power up.

After about 4 hours of talk between the tech and some geezer back at
the shop, 3 different techs were on site. Finally a 4th tech showed up,
pulled out a schematic that could just as easily been for the space
shuttle instead of a furnace. And he schooled the 3 other techs. He
schooled them BADLY. And that night I thanked the HVAC gods for finally
sending someone competent.

Bottom line on the whole deal: There was a design flaw in the circuitry
that my furnace used.

FAST FORWARD TO WINTER 2003

New inducer motor. New gas valve. Some other new things I no longer
remember. The only original part on the thing is now the frame.

-----------------

And so, what did I learn?

Lesson 1. If I had gone ahead and swapped the board myself, back in
2000, I would have thought the problem was fixed.

Lesson 1 moral: I would have thought WRONG.

Lesson 2. Even companies that have supposedly well trained techs don't
always know what they are doing. Do I care? Not unless I have to pay
for their incompetence. And I didn't. Never paid a dime for ANY of this
work.

Lesson 2 moral: You might not always pick the best company to do your
work. But if you do it yourself, you are going to pay, sometimes A LOT
more than you ever thought possible.

Lesson 3. After this experience, I made peace over in alt.hvac; and
apologized for my complete and total lack of understanding of exactly
what I was saying when I asked for help. And then I became a lurker
over there, as it is quite fun to watch person after person get their
ass handed to them on a silver platter. Being a lurker, I also read the
bi-weekly reports of joe homeowner burning down his house, killing his
kids, getting electrocuted, suffocating on gas/exhaust fumes - etc...
etc... etc.... all because the dumb ******* thought he could save $150
by fixing it himself. I bet $150 don't seem like a whole lot of $$ when
you are 6 feet under.

Lesson 3 moral: When it comes to HVAC.... don't play with it. Call
someone. These things are no longer a gas valve, a limit switch and a
blower. They are computers which happen to be hooked to gas lines. How
many of you (non mechanics) work on your cars engine (and I don't mean
an oil change)? None of us do. In the pursuit of efficiency, cars have
become too far complex for the average joe to even think about fixing
it.

Why do you think your furnace is any different? Because it's inside
your house?

Well, I'm done ranting.

Let the flames begin!

Matt wrote
Common sense dictates that: If you have to ask for help fixing
something you shouldn't be touching in the first place - you don't
deserve an answer.


One of the most stupid comments I've every read on Usenet.
Were you born with total knowledge such that you never had
to learn from somebody else?

Are you 12, 13 or 14 years old?

usenet rule number 19:

the only thing more stupid than the questions asked on usenet...

are the answers given.

randy

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:21:28 -0500, Mark wrote:

On 27 Jan 2005 14:11:28 -0800, "Matt" wrote:

WRONG.

I know who created the alt.hvac group, and I know why they created it.

OK. 'Nuff said. We now know at least one of the godlike wannabe types.



Either the anonymous "Mark" hasn't even bothered to check what the
charter actually says, (presumeably because he's at best only vaguely
aware that such things exist), in which case it's more than a little
presumptuous of him to just assume that what he's used to in his
little corner of the Usenet Universe is just the way everything is, or
he HAS checked the charter, knows that it was created for discussions
amongst professionals and researchers and has nothing to do with
helping DIYers and just doesn't care, in which case, he's just an
asshole.

Or both. On the halfhearted assumption that it's just the former,
here is a link to the charter of the group in question:

http://home.att.net/~alt.hvac/default.htm


--Goedjn

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:02:00 -0600, (DN B) wrote:

'I posted over in alt.hvac expecting (more like - DEMANDING) help.
What did I get? I got my ass flamed, thats what I got. '

Over in Alt.HVAC, you will find many fine examples of hvac servicemen
who represent the darkside of the Trade ; they resent a HO coming to
'their little nest' of a newsgroup . Their attitude gives consumers


A Homeowner who's asking for help fixing his home furnace in
Alt.Hvac has demostrated a basic unwillingness to do basic research,
to understand and follow directions, and to exhibit even rudimentary
good manners, and thus automatically identifies themself as someone
who is not to be trusted to do their own work.

It's not that you shouldn't ask the questions, it's that you shouldn't
do it *THERE*.

--Goedjn

Wow. Thanks mate.