In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

You make it sound like it was a massive majority for Brexit.

--
*I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have
always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

You make it sound like it was a massive majority for Brexit.

It may be at the next vote.
Unless we vote for silly Jeremy who seems to think he'll spend billions on
Trident but refuses to push the button.
What a numpty.

On 24/04/17 12:08, bm wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have
always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

You make it sound like it was a massive majority for Brexit.

It may be at the next vote.
Unless we vote for silly Jeremy who seems to think he'll spend billions on
Trident but refuses to push the button.
What a numpty.


I suspect what MAY well happen, is everyone votes tory for Brexit, and
then May says 'Ive got my mandate' and waters it down to nothing.


--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

On 24/04/17 10:14, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
On 23/04/17 21:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

Labour hasn't been a party of the working class - the white working
class for two decades or more. Not since Thatcher really.
Its the party of the nouveau rich middle class, you know 'me grandad
were a milkman but I am a sound engineer at the beeb, and own me own
house' sort.

Working class are way right of Labour.

I see where you're coming from, but I tend to think of it slightly
differently. Prior to Thatcher, there was a large working class in
the UK. The 1980's saw phenominal growth and improvement in living
standards, and enabled a large number of working class to move into
the middle class, with the middle class outnumbering the working
class by 1990.

However, in spite of this, there wasn't a significant political
party for the middle class. They ended up voting for whichever left
or right party was nearer the centre, and they had become large
enough to carry the swing vote. It wasn't until Labour realised this
that they got back into power, and then served their longest term
ever.

Interesting idea...

The lower middle class do suffer from a lot of the same problems as the
old working class. Whilst heath and safety is massively improved, we
still have people working on dodgy contracts doing excessive numbers of
hours trying to make ends meet under virtually feudal levels of control
by their employers.

Another section of the middle class would be all the small business
owners who are buried under red tape and an out of control tax system.

No one is representing either. Labour ought to be representing the
former and in principle, the tories were supposed to be supporting the
latter.

But neither seem to be much good at helping either group.

Tim Watts wrote:

On 24/04/17 10:14, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
On 23/04/17 21:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

Labour hasn't been a party of the working class - the white working
class for two decades or more. Not since Thatcher really.
Its the party of the nouveau rich middle class, you know 'me grandad
were a milkman but I am a sound engineer at the beeb, and own me own
house' sort.

Working class are way right of Labour.

I see where you're coming from, but I tend to think of it slightly
differently. Prior to Thatcher, there was a large working class in
the UK. The 1980's saw phenominal growth and improvement in living
standards, and enabled a large number of working class to move into
the middle class, with the middle class outnumbering the working
class by 1990.

However, in spite of this, there wasn't a significant political
party for the middle class. They ended up voting for whichever left
or right party was nearer the centre, and they had become large
enough to carry the swing vote. It wasn't until Labour realised this
that they got back into power, and then served their longest term
ever.

Interesting idea...

The lower middle class do suffer from a lot of the same problems as the
old working class. Whilst heath and safety is massively improved, we
still have people working on dodgy contracts doing excessive numbers of
hours trying to make ends meet under virtually feudal levels of control
by their employers.

Another section of the middle class would be all the small business
owners who are buried under red tape and an out of control tax system.

No one is representing either. Labour ought to be representing the
former and in principle, the tories were supposed to be supporting the
latter.

But neither seem to be much good at helping either group.

Whatever they may call themselves 99% of employees are working class.
And so, effectively, are most of the nominally self-employed with no
assets of their own.

For many years both parties have represented big business, which pays
them handsomely to do so.

Whether socialism is in the interests of all sections of the working
class will of course remain a matter of opinion in the absence of
acceptable proof and example. But it hasn't been tried here in my
lifetime.





--

Roger Hayter

bm wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have
always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

You make it sound like it was a massive majority for Brexit.

It may be at the next vote.
Unless we vote for silly Jeremy who seems to think he'll spend billions on
Trident but refuses to push the button.
What a numpty.

Since the Americans have a highly effective veto over us using Trident,
and an overwhelming superiority of weapons if they are in favour of us
doing so it is hard to believe it makes a significant difference.

--

Roger Hayter

The Natural Philosopher wrote:



I suspect what MAY well happen, is everyone votes tory for Brexit, and
then May says 'Ive got my mandate' and waters it down to nothing.

Strangely, I agree with you. Certainly, if Eastern European labour is
no longer available, business will be allowed to import other people
from somewhere. Corbyn's policy of making immigrants just as expensive
as UK workers is the only one that could conceivably be effective in
reducing the damage of immigration, were it possible to make it work.


--

Roger Hayter

On 24/04/17 12:58, Roger Hayter wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:

On 24/04/17 10:14, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
On 23/04/17 21:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

Labour hasn't been a party of the working class - the white working
class for two decades or more. Not since Thatcher really.
Its the party of the nouveau rich middle class, you know 'me grandad
were a milkman but I am a sound engineer at the beeb, and own me own
house' sort.

Working class are way right of Labour.

I see where you're coming from, but I tend to think of it slightly
differently. Prior to Thatcher, there was a large working class in
the UK. The 1980's saw phenominal growth and improvement in living
standards, and enabled a large number of working class to move into
the middle class, with the middle class outnumbering the working
class by 1990.

However, in spite of this, there wasn't a significant political
party for the middle class. They ended up voting for whichever left
or right party was nearer the centre, and they had become large
enough to carry the swing vote. It wasn't until Labour realised this
that they got back into power, and then served their longest term
ever.

Interesting idea...

The lower middle class do suffer from a lot of the same problems as the
old working class. Whilst heath and safety is massively improved, we
still have people working on dodgy contracts doing excessive numbers of
hours trying to make ends meet under virtually feudal levels of control
by their employers.

Another section of the middle class would be all the small business
owners who are buried under red tape and an out of control tax system.

No one is representing either. Labour ought to be representing the
former and in principle, the tories were supposed to be supporting the
latter.

That is where UKIP should position itself, but its lost its bottle and
gone soft left.

For the average person, to combat the excesses of centralised government
and big business.



But neither seem to be much good at helping either group.

Whatever they may call themselves 99% of employees are working class.

Well that's one way to define it.

It used to be blue collar versus white collar of course.


No blue collars left these days. Not in large company employment.

And what are left vote Tory/BNP/UKIP whatever. Not Labour.

And so, effectively, are most of the nominally self-employed with no
assets of their own.

For many years both parties have represented big business, which pays
them handsomely to do so.

Whether socialism is in the interests of all sections of the working
class will of course remain a matter of opinion in the absence of
acceptable proof and example. But it hasn't been tried here in my
lifetime.

Its been tried elsewhere and always failed dismally.

And the more its bee attempted here the bigger the failure has been.

So whatever the best solution is, it aint socialism.,









--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 02:58:49 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 23/04/17 21:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

Labour hasn't been a party of the working class - the white working
class for two decades or more. Not since Thatcher really.
Its the party of the nouveau rich middle class, you know 'me grandad
were a milkman but I am a sound engineer at the beeb, and own me own
house' sort.

Working class are way right of Labour.

You mean way left.

--
101 Dalmatians and Peter Pan are the only two Disney animated features in which both the parents are present and don't die throughout the movie.

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
Whatever they may call themselves 99% of employees are working class.
And so, effectively, are most of the nominally self-employed with no
assets of their own.

Well, quite. Middle class has little to do with income, but more education
and type of job. Allowing a dustman or whatever to buy his council house
does not turn him into middle class. Just possibly buys his vote for the
Tory party. Exactly as intended.


For many years both parties have represented big business, which pays
them handsomely to do so.

And don't forget currying favour with the meja.

Whether socialism is in the interests of all sections of the working
class will of course remain a matter of opinion in the absence of
acceptable proof and example. But it hasn't been tried here in my
lifetime.

Most here seem to think calling a party etc socialist makes it one.

--
*I have never hated a man enough to give his diamonds back.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
It may be at the next vote. Unless we vote for silly Jeremy who seems
to think he'll spend billions on Trident but refuses to push the
button. What a numpty.

Since the Americans have a highly effective veto over us using Trident,
and an overwhelming superiority of weapons if they are in favour of us
doing so it is hard to believe it makes a significant difference.

Very odd that 'we' insist on having a nuclear deterrent, but think other
countries like Iran, Pakistan, N Korea etc mustn't be allowed the same.

--
*I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
It may be at the next vote. Unless we vote for silly Jeremy who seems
to think he'll spend billions on Trident but refuses to push the
button. What a numpty.

Since the Americans have a highly effective veto over us using Trident,
and an overwhelming superiority of weapons if they are in favour of us
doing so it is hard to believe it makes a significant difference.

Very odd that 'we' insist on having a nuclear deterrent, but think other
countries like Iran, Pakistan, N Korea etc mustn't be allowed the same.

That's because "we" are responsible - unlike some other countries

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article ,
charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
It may be at the next vote. Unless we vote for silly Jeremy who
seems to think he'll spend billions on Trident but refuses to push
the button. What a numpty.

Since the Americans have a highly effective veto over us using
Trident, and an overwhelming superiority of weapons if they are in
favour of us doing so it is hard to believe it makes a significant
difference.

Very odd that 'we' insist on having a nuclear deterrent, but think
other countries like Iran, Pakistan, N Korea etc mustn't be allowed
the same.

That's because "we" are responsible - unlike some other countries

Like the US under Trump? Have you read his tweets?

--
*When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article . com,
lid writes
On 23/04/2017 21:08, Rod Speed wrote:
"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 21/04/2017 13:27, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

It would be good to hear
about all those killer products made in the UK that other countries
can't
wait to get their hands on.


And which "killer produces" are the rest of the EU taking from us?
Airbus wings, aircraft engines, docos, scotch, docos, financial
stuff etc etc etc.

Financial stuff requires the EU passport which comes with membership
and May may not get one in her negotiations. Hence the reason the banks
setting up branches in other EU countries
Actually they're not in any great numbers. JP Morgan have admitted as
much and they were one of the remain cheerleaders
so they can shift all the jobs to the EU if she doesn't get one.

The EU will want cash and free movement for it so the brexiteers will
be upset.

--
bert

In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
On 23/04/17 21:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

Labour hasn't been a party of the working class - the white working
class for two decades or more. Not since Thatcher really.
Its the party of the nouveau rich middle class, you know 'me grandad
were a milkman but I am a sound engineer at the beeb, and own me own
house' sort.

Working class are way right of Labour.

I see where you're coming from, but I tend to think of it slightly
differently. Prior to Thatcher, there was a large working class in
the UK. The 1980's saw phenominal growth and improvement in living
standards, and enabled a large number of working class to move into
the middle class, with the middle class outnumbering the working
class by 1990.

However, in spite of this, there wasn't a significant political
party for the middle class. They ended up voting for whichever left
or right party was nearer the centre, and they had become large
enough to carry the swing vote. It wasn't until Labour realised this
that they got back into power, and then served their longest term
ever.

For now, voting is pretty much all about Brexit, and might even
remain so for one more general election after Brexit. Even if
Labour moved back more towards centre, I don't think it will help
them at the moment, although it may do after Brexit.

You should also include the demise of the heavy industrial base of the
unions, coal mining, steel making, car manufacturing etc. The only
unions left with any power are in the public sector.
--
bert

In article . com, bm
writes

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have
always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

You make it sound like it was a massive majority for Brexit.

It may be at the next vote.
Unless we vote for silly Jeremy who seems to think he'll spend billions on
Trident but refuses to push the button.
What a numpty.


Whether he would push the button or not is not the issue. It's the fact
that he tells everyone in the world that he won't.
--
bert

In article , Roger Hayter
writes
The Natural Philosopher wrote:



I suspect what MAY well happen, is everyone votes tory for Brexit, and
then May says 'Ive got my mandate' and waters it down to nothing.

Strangely, I agree with you. Certainly, if Eastern European labour is
no longer available, business will be allowed to import other people
from somewhere. Corbyn's policy of making immigrants just as expensive
as UK workers is the only one that could conceivably be effective in
reducing the damage of immigration, were it possible to make it work.


Are you saying that immigrants can currently be paid less than the
minimum wage? EU immigrants must already be treated the same as locals.
--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
It may be at the next vote. Unless we vote for silly Jeremy who seems
to think he'll spend billions on Trident but refuses to push the
button. What a numpty.

Since the Americans have a highly effective veto over us using Trident,
and an overwhelming superiority of weapons if they are in favour of us
doing so it is hard to believe it makes a significant difference.

Very odd that 'we' insist on having a nuclear deterrent, but think other
countries like Iran, Pakistan, N Korea etc mustn't be allowed the same.

Nothing odd about it at all if you are familiar with the development of
nuclear arms over the last 60 years. Are you in favour of North Korea
having it's own nuclear weapons.
--
bert

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 17:27:56 +0100, bert wrote:

In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
On 23/04/17 21:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

Labour hasn't been a party of the working class - the white working
class for two decades or more. Not since Thatcher really.
Its the party of the nouveau rich middle class, you know 'me grandad
were a milkman but I am a sound engineer at the beeb, and own me own
house' sort.

Working class are way right of Labour.

I see where you're coming from, but I tend to think of it slightly
differently. Prior to Thatcher, there was a large working class in
the UK. The 1980's saw phenominal growth and improvement in living
standards, and enabled a large number of working class to move into
the middle class, with the middle class outnumbering the working
class by 1990.

However, in spite of this, there wasn't a significant political
party for the middle class. They ended up voting for whichever left
or right party was nearer the centre, and they had become large
enough to carry the swing vote. It wasn't until Labour realised this
that they got back into power, and then served their longest term
ever.

For now, voting is pretty much all about Brexit, and might even
remain so for one more general election after Brexit. Even if
Labour moved back more towards centre, I don't think it will help
them at the moment, although it may do after Brexit.

You should also include the demise of the heavy industrial base of the
unions, coal mining, steel making, car manufacturing etc. The only
unions left with any power are in the public sector.

Unions do nobody any good, ever.

--
Peter is listening to The Who - Behind Blue Eyes

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 02:58:49 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 23/04/17 21:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have
always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

Labour hasn't been a party of the working class - the white working
class for two decades or more. Not since Thatcher really.
Its the party of the nouveau rich middle class, you know 'me grandad
were a milkman but I am a sound engineer at the beeb, and own me own
house' sort.

Working class are way right of Labour.

You mean way left.

Nope, **** all of the working class is into the
sort of Trotskyite **** that Corbyn and co are.

That's why so many of them kept putting Maggie in.

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 17:27:56 +0100, bert wrote:

In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
On 23/04/17 21:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have
always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

Labour hasn't been a party of the working class - the white working
class for two decades or more. Not since Thatcher really.
Its the party of the nouveau rich middle class, you know 'me grandad
were a milkman but I am a sound engineer at the beeb, and own me own
house' sort.

Working class are way right of Labour.

I see where you're coming from, but I tend to think of it slightly
differently. Prior to Thatcher, there was a large working class in
the UK. The 1980's saw phenominal growth and improvement in living
standards, and enabled a large number of working class to move into
the middle class, with the middle class outnumbering the working
class by 1990.

However, in spite of this, there wasn't a significant political
party for the middle class. They ended up voting for whichever left
or right party was nearer the centre, and they had become large
enough to carry the swing vote. It wasn't until Labour realised this
that they got back into power, and then served their longest term
ever.

For now, voting is pretty much all about Brexit, and might even
remain so for one more general election after Brexit. Even if
Labour moved back more towards centre, I don't think it will help
them at the moment, although it may do after Brexit.

You should also include the demise of the heavy industrial base of the
unions, coal mining, steel making, car manufacturing etc. The only
unions left with any power are in the public sector.

Unions do nobody any good, ever.

They do arseholes like Scargill a lot of good.

On 24/04/17 12:18, Tim Watts wrote:
On 24/04/17 10:14, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
On 23/04/17 21:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have
always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

Labour hasn't been a party of the working class - the white working
class for two decades or more. Not since Thatcher really.
Its the party of the nouveau rich middle class, you know 'me grandad
were a milkman but I am a sound engineer at the beeb, and own me own
house' sort.

Working class are way right of Labour.

I see where you're coming from, but I tend to think of it slightly
differently. Prior to Thatcher, there was a large working class in
the UK. The 1980's saw phenominal growth and improvement in living
standards, and enabled a large number of working class to move into
the middle class, with the middle class outnumbering the working
class by 1990.

However, in spite of this, there wasn't a significant political
party for the middle class. They ended up voting for whichever left
or right party was nearer the centre, and they had become large
enough to carry the swing vote. It wasn't until Labour realised this
that they got back into power, and then served their longest term
ever.

Interesting idea...

The lower middle class do suffer from a lot of the same problems as the
old working class. Whilst heath and safety is massively improved, we
still have people working on dodgy contracts doing excessive numbers of
hours trying to make ends meet under virtually feudal levels of control
by their employers.

Another section of the middle class would be all the small business
owners who are buried under red tape and an out of control tax system.

No one is representing either. Labour ought to be representing the
former and in principle, the tories were supposed to be supporting the
latter.

But neither seem to be much good at helping either group.


There will always be a place for a conservative party, that is one for
people who reckon, all things considered, that they will be best served
by things remaining much as they are.
Affluence and the decline of large labour intensive industries has taken
away much of the old labour vote, but replaced it with a new labour vote
in the public sector.
The public sector and all its encumbrances is now so large that it also
represents a vote for things the way they are.
There is no libertarian party, no small-business and mind your own
business party, just two maintain the unsustainable status quo parties.






--
djc

(–€Ì¿Ä¹Ì¯–€Ì¿ Ì¿)
No low-hanging fruit, just a lot of small berries up a tall tree.

bert wrote:

In article , Roger Hayter
writes
The Natural Philosopher wrote:



I suspect what MAY well happen, is everyone votes tory for Brexit, and
then May says 'Ive got my mandate' and waters it down to nothing.

Strangely, I agree with you. Certainly, if Eastern European labour is
no longer available, business will be allowed to import other people
from somewhere. Corbyn's policy of making immigrants just as expensive
as UK workers is the only one that could conceivably be effective in
reducing the damage of immigration, were it possible to make it work.


Are you saying that immigrants can currently be paid less than the
minimum wage? EU immigrants must already be treated the same as locals.

But there is very considerable evidence that they often aren't.


--

Roger Hayter

bert wrote:

In article . com, bm
writes
snip
It may be at the next vote.
Unless we vote for silly Jeremy who seems to think he'll spend billions on
Trident but refuses to push the button.
What a numpty.


Whether he would push the button or not is not the issue. It's the fact
that he tells everyone in the world that he won't.

But any enemy has to consider whether he might be bluffing; or
overthrown by a military coup.

--

Roger Hayter

On 24/04/2017 22:21, Roger Hayter wrote:
bert wrote:


Are you saying that immigrants can currently be paid less than the
minimum wage? EU immigrants must already be treated the same as locals.

But there is very considerable evidence that they often aren't.



There is evidence that illegal immigrants are unfairly treated but not
much for EU immigrants being so treated.
Guess what brexit won't stop?

In article ,
DJC wrote:
There will always be a place for a conservative party, that is one for
people who reckon, all things considered, that they will be best served
by things remaining much as they are.

That will be why they supported Brexit?

Conservative often means going back to how they think things once were.

--
*Why is 'abbreviation' such a long word?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
On 24/04/2017 22:21, Roger Hayter wrote:
bert wrote:


Are you saying that immigrants can currently be paid less than the
minimum wage? EU immigrants must already be treated the same as locals.

But there is very considerable evidence that they often aren't.

There is evidence that illegal immigrants are unfairly treated

Yes, there is always the leaver that if you dont do
what we require, the cops will be told about you.

but not much for EU immigrants being so treated.

Bull****. When you have come all that way
and your employment prospects arent great
because your english leaves a lot to be
desired, thats the leaver that works for them.

Guess what brexit won't stop?

It will certainly stop the dregs of the EU showing
up because they decide their prospects are better
in Britain, particularly the ones that arent prepared
to engage in illegal activity.

"DJC" wrote in message news
On 24/04/17 12:18, Tim Watts wrote:
On 24/04/17 10:14, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
On 23/04/17 21:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have
always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

Labour hasn't been a party of the working class - the white working
class for two decades or more. Not since Thatcher really.
Its the party of the nouveau rich middle class, you know 'me grandad
were a milkman but I am a sound engineer at the beeb, and own me own
house' sort.

Working class are way right of Labour.

I see where you're coming from, but I tend to think of it slightly
differently. Prior to Thatcher, there was a large working class in
the UK. The 1980's saw phenominal growth and improvement in living
standards, and enabled a large number of working class to move into
the middle class, with the middle class outnumbering the working
class by 1990.

However, in spite of this, there wasn't a significant political
party for the middle class. They ended up voting for whichever left
or right party was nearer the centre, and they had become large
enough to carry the swing vote. It wasn't until Labour realised this
that they got back into power, and then served their longest term
ever.

Interesting idea...

The lower middle class do suffer from a lot of the same problems as the
old working class. Whilst heath and safety is massively improved, we
still have people working on dodgy contracts doing excessive numbers of
hours trying to make ends meet under virtually feudal levels of control
by their employers.

Another section of the middle class would be all the small business
owners who are buried under red tape and an out of control tax system.

No one is representing either. Labour ought to be representing the
former and in principle, the tories were supposed to be supporting the
latter.

But neither seem to be much good at helping either group.

There will always be a place for a conservative party, that is one for
people who reckon, all things considered, that they will be best served by
things remaining much as they are.

Yes, but in practice there arent enough of those to form govt anymore.

Affluence and the decline of large labour intensive industries has taken
away much of the old labour vote, but replaced it with a new labour vote
in the public sector.

The public sector and all its encumbrances is now so large

Thats overstated, the public sector isnt really all that large.

that it also represents a vote for things the way they are.

Not really.

There is no libertarian party, no small-business and mind your own
business party, just two maintain the unsustainable status quo parties.

There are a lot more than just two partys and neither of them is
unsustainable.

lid posted
On 24/04/2017 22:21, Roger Hayter wrote:
bert wrote:


Are you saying that immigrants can currently be paid less than the
minimum wage? EU immigrants must already be treated the same as locals.
But there is very considerable evidence that they often aren't.


There is evidence that illegal immigrants are unfairly treated but not
much for EU immigrants being so treated.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...y-illegal-gang
master-east-anglia-valujevs-mezals

"... A succession of workers from eastern Europe described a precarious
existence in the fens. ... They described a system of erratic employment
in which their hours were never certain and might only be confirmed the
evening before in a text from one of the two men. .... Work was
withheld, the prosecution said, until tenants became indebted to the
pair; that debt was used as a means of controlling them. The victims
suffered threats and intimidation.
Mezals sometimes collected the workers pay himself or had it paid
into his personal bank accounts, or in other cases waited for workers in
his minibus to take rent and purported debts from them as soon as they
were paid. Witnesses said deductions were sometimes made arbitrarily, so
that they often ended up with only £20 for a full weeks work.


--
Jack

dennis@home wrote:
On 24/04/2017 22:21, Roger Hayter wrote:
bert wrote:


Are you saying that immigrants can currently be paid less than the
minimum wage? EU immigrants must already be treated the same as locals.

But there is very considerable evidence that they often aren't.



There is evidence that illegal immigrants are unfairly treated but not
much for EU immigrants being so treated.
Guess what brexit won't stop?

The plague? Still in denial Denise. By the way, your economic argument
doesn't work as it also applies to being a slave, which doesn't do much
for most people.

In article , Roger Hayter
writes
bert wrote:

In article , Roger Hayter
writes
The Natural Philosopher wrote:



I suspect what MAY well happen, is everyone votes tory for Brexit, and
then May says 'Ive got my mandate' and waters it down to nothing.

Strangely, I agree with you. Certainly, if Eastern European labour is
no longer available, business will be allowed to import other people
from somewhere. Corbyn's policy of making immigrants just as expensive
as UK workers is the only one that could conceivably be effective in
reducing the damage of immigration, were it possible to make it work.


Are you saying that immigrants can currently be paid less than the
minimum wage? EU immigrants must already be treated the same as locals.

But there is very considerable evidence that they often aren't.


Citation? And how will Corbyn propose to change that? Probably by
destroying all the jobs that create the demand in the first place.
--
bert

In article . com,
lid writes
On 24/04/2017 22:21, Roger Hayter wrote:
bert wrote:


Are you saying that immigrants can currently be paid less than the
minimum wage? EU immigrants must already be treated the same as locals.
But there is very considerable evidence that they often aren't.


There is evidence that illegal immigrants are unfairly treated but not
much for EU immigrants being so treated.
Guess what brexit won't stop?
Illegal immigrants - but who ever claimed it would?
--
bert

In article , Handsome Jack
writes
posted
On 24/04/2017 22:21, Roger Hayter wrote:
bert wrote:


Are you saying that immigrants can currently be paid less than the
minimum wage? EU immigrants must already be treated the same as locals.
But there is very considerable evidence that they often aren't.


There is evidence that illegal immigrants are unfairly treated but
not much for EU immigrants being so treated.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...y-illegal-gang
master-east-anglia-valujevs-mezals

"... A succession of workers from eastern Europe described a precarious
existence in the fens. ... They described a system of erratic
employment in which their hours were never certain and might only be
confirmed the evening before in a text from one of the two men. ....
Work was withheld, the prosecution said, until tenants became indebted
to the pair; that debt was used as a means of controlling them. The
victims suffered threats and intimidation.
Mezals sometimes collected the workers pay himself or had it paid
into his personal bank accounts, or in other cases waited for workers
in his minibus to take rent and purported debts from them as soon as
they were paid. Witnesses said deductions were sometimes made
arbitrarily, so that they often ended up with only £20 for a full
weeks work.


2014 - and the existing legal system dealt with it.
--
bert

In article , Roger Hayter
writes
bert wrote:

In article . com, bm
writes
snip
It may be at the next vote.
Unless we vote for silly Jeremy who seems to think he'll spend billions on
Trident but refuses to push the button.
What a numpty.


Whether he would push the button or not is not the issue. It's the fact
that he tells everyone in the world that he won't.

But any enemy has to consider whether he might be bluffing; or
overthrown by a military coup.

Then he should keep his mouth shut and keep the enemy guessing, but
fearing he just might.
--
bert

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:55:42 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 02:58:49 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 23/04/17 21:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have
always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

Labour hasn't been a party of the working class - the white working
class for two decades or more. Not since Thatcher really.
Its the party of the nouveau rich middle class, you know 'me grandad
were a milkman but I am a sound engineer at the beeb, and own me own
house' sort.

Working class are way right of Labour.

You mean way left.

Nope, **** all of the working class is into the
sort of Trotskyite **** that Corbyn and co are.

That's why so many of them kept putting Maggie in.

Every working class person I know does not vote Tory (right wing). They want handouts.

--
What does a married man say after sex?
Don't tell my wife.

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:55:42 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 02:58:49 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 23/04/17 21:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have
always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

Labour hasn't been a party of the working class - the white working
class for two decades or more. Not since Thatcher really.
Its the party of the nouveau rich middle class, you know 'me grandad
were a milkman but I am a sound engineer at the beeb, and own me own
house' sort.

Working class are way right of Labour.

You mean way left.

Nope, **** all of the working class is into the
sort of Trotskyite **** that Corbyn and co are.

That's why so many of them kept putting Maggie in.

Every working class person I know does not vote Tory (right wing).

Then you need to get out more.

They want handouts.

Corse you never ever do that yourself, eh ?

On Mon, 01 May 2017 21:59:46 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:55:42 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 02:58:49 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 23/04/17 21:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have
always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

Labour hasn't been a party of the working class - the white working
class for two decades or more. Not since Thatcher really.
Its the party of the nouveau rich middle class, you know 'me grandad
were a milkman but I am a sound engineer at the beeb, and own me own
house' sort.

Working class are way right of Labour.

You mean way left.

Nope, **** all of the working class is into the
sort of Trotskyite **** that Corbyn and co are.

That's why so many of them kept putting Maggie in.

Every working class person I know does not vote Tory (right wing).

Then you need to get out more.

Why would a poor person not want handouts?

They want handouts.

Corse you never ever do that yourself, eh ?

I take whatever's available, I'm a scrounger at heart.

--
You have reached the CPX-2000 Voice Blackmail System. Your voice patterns are now being digitally encoded and stored for later use. Once this is done, our computers will be able to use the sound of YOUR voice for literally thousands of illegal and immoral purposes. There is no charge for this initial consultation. However our staff of professional extortionists will contact you in the near future to further explain the benefits of our service, and to arrange for your schedule of payment. Remember to speak clearly at the sound of the tone. Thank you.

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 20:06:35 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 17:27:56 +0100, bert wrote:

In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
On 23/04/17 21:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have
always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

Labour hasn't been a party of the working class - the white working
class for two decades or more. Not since Thatcher really.
Its the party of the nouveau rich middle class, you know 'me grandad
were a milkman but I am a sound engineer at the beeb, and own me own
house' sort.

Working class are way right of Labour.

I see where you're coming from, but I tend to think of it slightly
differently. Prior to Thatcher, there was a large working class in
the UK. The 1980's saw phenominal growth and improvement in living
standards, and enabled a large number of working class to move into
the middle class, with the middle class outnumbering the working
class by 1990.

However, in spite of this, there wasn't a significant political
party for the middle class. They ended up voting for whichever left
or right party was nearer the centre, and they had become large
enough to carry the swing vote. It wasn't until Labour realised this
that they got back into power, and then served their longest term
ever.

For now, voting is pretty much all about Brexit, and might even
remain so for one more general election after Brexit. Even if
Labour moved back more towards centre, I don't think it will help
them at the moment, although it may do after Brexit.

You should also include the demise of the heavy industrial base of the
unions, coal mining, steel making, car manufacturing etc. The only
unions left with any power are in the public sector.

Unions do nobody any good, ever.

They do arseholes like Scargill a lot of good.

That's not what I meant.

--
Coffee (n.), the person upon whom one coughs.

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 01 May 2017 21:59:46 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:55:42 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 02:58:49 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 23/04/17 21:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep.
I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have
always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more
important
than left/right politics.

Labour hasn't been a party of the working class - the white working
class for two decades or more. Not since Thatcher really.
Its the party of the nouveau rich middle class, you know 'me grandad
were a milkman but I am a sound engineer at the beeb, and own me own
house' sort.

Working class are way right of Labour.

You mean way left.

Nope, **** all of the working class is into the
sort of Trotskyite **** that Corbyn and co are.

That's why so many of them kept putting Maggie in.

Every working class person I know does not vote Tory (right wing).

Then you need to get out more.

Why would a poor person not want handouts?

Even the Torys do handouts. And working class
people arent necessarily poor people anyway.
Adam certainly isnt.

They want handouts.

Corse you never ever do that yourself, eh ?

I take whatever's available, I'm a scrounger at heart.

And yet you don't vote Labour.

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 20:06:35 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 17:27:56 +0100, bert wrote:

In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
On 23/04/17 21:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep.
I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have
always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more
important
than left/right politics.

Labour hasn't been a party of the working class - the white working
class for two decades or more. Not since Thatcher really.
Its the party of the nouveau rich middle class, you know 'me grandad
were a milkman but I am a sound engineer at the beeb, and own me own
house' sort.

Working class are way right of Labour.

I see where you're coming from, but I tend to think of it slightly
differently. Prior to Thatcher, there was a large working class in
the UK. The 1980's saw phenominal growth and improvement in living
standards, and enabled a large number of working class to move into
the middle class, with the middle class outnumbering the working
class by 1990.

However, in spite of this, there wasn't a significant political
party for the middle class. They ended up voting for whichever left
or right party was nearer the centre, and they had become large
enough to carry the swing vote. It wasn't until Labour realised this
that they got back into power, and then served their longest term
ever.

For now, voting is pretty much all about Brexit, and might even
remain so for one more general election after Brexit. Even if
Labour moved back more towards centre, I don't think it will help
them at the moment, although it may do after Brexit.

You should also include the demise of the heavy industrial base of the
unions, coal mining, steel making, car manufacturing etc. The only
unions left with any power are in the public sector.

Unions do nobody any good, ever.

They do arseholes like Scargill a lot of good.

That's not what I meant.

You did say nobody.