On 24/04/17 12:58, Roger Hayter wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:

On 24/04/17 10:14, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
On 23/04/17 21:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Bod writes:
From what I've read and heard, most Labour voters ARE like sheep. I
hear it all of the time "I vote labour because all my family have always
voted for Labour".

I think there's been a lot of truth in that, but a lot of people
who had always voted Labour for decades have abandoned the party
in last couple of years for two different reasons, Brexit, and the
party's recent move towards the far left (popular with Labour
members, but less so with the bulk of voters they need to attract).

Both Conservative and Labour voters were split on Brexit - it
wasn't a hard left/right issue. Now the Conservatives have come
out heavily for Brexit, they've pulled in lots of Labour Brexiters,
and I think they'll pull in all 5M UKIP voters (UKIP will be dead
in 8 weeks). Conservatives will lose some Remainers to Lib/Dems, but
that will be small compared with their gains from Labour and UKIP.

I think the most significant thing historically will be the number
of traditional left wing voters who've moved well to the right just
to ensure Brexit goes through. They'll probably move back a few
years after Brexit, but for now, they regard Brexit as more important
than left/right politics.

Labour hasn't been a party of the working class - the white working
class for two decades or more. Not since Thatcher really.
Its the party of the nouveau rich middle class, you know 'me grandad
were a milkman but I am a sound engineer at the beeb, and own me own
house' sort.

Working class are way right of Labour.

I see where you're coming from, but I tend to think of it slightly
differently. Prior to Thatcher, there was a large working class in
the UK. The 1980's saw phenominal growth and improvement in living
standards, and enabled a large number of working class to move into
the middle class, with the middle class outnumbering the working
class by 1990.

However, in spite of this, there wasn't a significant political
party for the middle class. They ended up voting for whichever left
or right party was nearer the centre, and they had become large
enough to carry the swing vote. It wasn't until Labour realised this
that they got back into power, and then served their longest term
ever.

Interesting idea...

The lower middle class do suffer from a lot of the same problems as the
old working class. Whilst heath and safety is massively improved, we
still have people working on dodgy contracts doing excessive numbers of
hours trying to make ends meet under virtually feudal levels of control
by their employers.

Another section of the middle class would be all the small business
owners who are buried under red tape and an out of control tax system.

No one is representing either. Labour ought to be representing the
former and in principle, the tories were supposed to be supporting the
latter.

That is where UKIP should position itself, but its lost its bottle and
gone soft left.

For the average person, to combat the excesses of centralised government
and big business.



But neither seem to be much good at helping either group.

Whatever they may call themselves 99% of employees are working class.

Well that's one way to define it.

It used to be blue collar versus white collar of course.


No blue collars left these days. Not in large company employment.

And what are left vote Tory/BNP/UKIP whatever. Not Labour.

And so, effectively, are most of the nominally self-employed with no
assets of their own.

For many years both parties have represented big business, which pays
them handsomely to do so.

Whether socialism is in the interests of all sections of the working
class will of course remain a matter of opinion in the absence of
acceptable proof and example. But it hasn't been tried here in my
lifetime.

Its been tried elsewhere and always failed dismally.

And the more its bee attempted here the bigger the failure has been.

So whatever the best solution is, it aint socialism.,









--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"