As an antidote to the Brexit discussion I intend to beg comment on a
series of queries related to an about to start extension/major refurb.
of an existing timber frame chalet bungalow.

Not having Tim Ws stamina the bulk of the structural/roofing work will
be done by a local building company.

Q1. The existing windows are narrow spacing double glazed in brown
painted pine. Two or three panels are blown and need renewing anyway. My
first thought was to strip out the glass and strip off the paint.
Re-paint in white and fit modern argon filled panels. However, the
glazing rebate is much too narrow to use 4:16:4 units.

Six new windows are required for the alterations so current thinking is
to go for new throughout. First estimate for 12 windows and two doors
came in at 18K fitted. This afternoon was spent trawling round the local
showrooms. I'm not much wiser:-( The much vaunted narrow mullion
aluminium does not seem to exist. By the time they have put in the
plastic thermal break and endless folds for strength and appearance they
are as fat as uPVC.

Also, what happened to window hinges and stays? They all seem to use a
fancy sliding meccano mechanism which relies on a tiny strip of plastic
in a groove to retain the window against a stiff breeze.

And why do doors supplied by such outlets have such flimsy threshold
strips?

Also, also my wife who is somewhat challenged vertically came back from
a jaunt to the Cotswolds determined that fanlights are out! (hard to
clean and hard to reach). The new *in* is top hung bottom latched full
length openers.

Thoughts please. Does uPVC really stay clean and shiny for 20 years?

Are these fancy sliding fixings reliable?

Can a bottom opening style meet the fire escape regulations.

--
Tim Lamb

On 18/05/16 21:24, Tim Lamb wrote:
As an antidote to the Brexit discussion I intend to beg comment on a
series of queries related to an about to start extension/major refurb.
of an existing timber frame chalet bungalow.

Not having Tim Ws stamina the bulk of the structural/roofing work will
be done by a local building company.



Actually - if you can afford and get good people, subcontract. It gets
depressing as it drags out.

Our slowness was due to lack of dosh. That problem has reduced and I
have happily got some help on certain areas, whilst being lucky enough
to maintain the original design ideas.


Q1. The existing windows are narrow spacing double glazed in brown
painted pine. Two or three panels are blown and need renewing anyway. My
first thought was to strip out the glass and strip off the paint.
Re-paint in white and fit modern argon filled panels. However, the
glazing rebate is much too narrow to use 4:16:4 units.

Six new windows are required for the alterations so current thinking is
to go for new throughout. First estimate for 12 windows and two doors
came in at 18K fitted. This afternoon was spent trawling round the local
showrooms. I'm not much wiser:-( The much vaunted narrow mullion
aluminium does not seem to exist. By the time they have put in the
plastic thermal break and endless folds for strength and appearance they
are as fat as uPVC.

If you look at windowsanddoors.co.uk you will get an idea of the cost of
the units - at least for uPVC


Also, what happened to window hinges and stays? They all seem to use a
fancy sliding meccano mechanism which relies on a tiny strip of plastic
in a groove to retain the window against a stiff breeze.

I know what you mean. Not as bad as they look - and hinge bolts
mitigate. I recommend you specify egress (corner swinging) hinges - they
always seem to default to "easy clean" which I hate.

And why do doors supplied by such outlets have such flimsy threshold
strips?

You can get uPVC with a low profile ali threshold - I have one. And you
can bond or seal that down whereby it is pretty solid.

Also, also my wife who is somewhat challenged vertically came back from
a jaunt to the Cotswolds determined that fanlights are out! (hard to
clean and hard to reach). The new *in* is top hung bottom latched full
length openers.

Thoughts please. Does uPVC really stay clean and shiny for 20 years?

Non white might.


Are these fancy sliding fixings reliable?

Yes, IME.

Can a bottom opening style meet the fire escape regulations.


Pass.

Why not go for full height casement with egress hinges? (and egress
hinges often have an "easy clean" mode).

In message
Tim Lamb wrote:


[snip]

Have a look for an approved fabricator for Schuco or Reynaers systems.
IIRC they both offer slim sections.

Top hung should be fine, but may require restrictors to combat the
danger of a fall hazard. Have you considered tilt and turn?

Friction stays on higher end systems are better engineered. I agree many
resemble meccano, and appear flimsy.

Personally, I detest uPVC. It creaks and groans in hot weather, and
whilst staying white, the gloss does degrade. Good aluminium is robust,
and you have the options of a huge range of powder coat colours if
required.

HTH
--
Jim White
Wimbledon London England

Sounds bloody expensive to me whatever sort you get. No wonder there are so
many door to door sellers of double glazing.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 18/05/16 21:24, Tim Lamb wrote:
As an antidote to the Brexit discussion I intend to beg comment on a
series of queries related to an about to start extension/major refurb.
of an existing timber frame chalet bungalow.

Not having Tim Ws stamina the bulk of the structural/roofing work will
be done by a local building company.



Actually - if you can afford and get good people, subcontract. It gets
depressing as it drags out.

Our slowness was due to lack of dosh. That problem has reduced and I have
happily got some help on certain areas, whilst being lucky enough to
maintain the original design ideas.


Q1. The existing windows are narrow spacing double glazed in brown
painted pine. Two or three panels are blown and need renewing anyway. My
first thought was to strip out the glass and strip off the paint.
Re-paint in white and fit modern argon filled panels. However, the
glazing rebate is much too narrow to use 4:16:4 units.

Six new windows are required for the alterations so current thinking is
to go for new throughout. First estimate for 12 windows and two doors
came in at 18K fitted. This afternoon was spent trawling round the local
showrooms. I'm not much wiser:-( The much vaunted narrow mullion
aluminium does not seem to exist. By the time they have put in the
plastic thermal break and endless folds for strength and appearance they
are as fat as uPVC.

If you look at windowsanddoors.co.uk you will get an idea of the cost of
the units - at least for uPVC


Also, what happened to window hinges and stays? They all seem to use a
fancy sliding meccano mechanism which relies on a tiny strip of plastic
in a groove to retain the window against a stiff breeze.

I know what you mean. Not as bad as they look - and hinge bolts mitigate.
I recommend you specify egress (corner swinging) hinges - they always seem
to default to "easy clean" which I hate.

And why do doors supplied by such outlets have such flimsy threshold
strips?

You can get uPVC with a low profile ali threshold - I have one. And you
can bond or seal that down whereby it is pretty solid.

Also, also my wife who is somewhat challenged vertically came back from
a jaunt to the Cotswolds determined that fanlights are out! (hard to
clean and hard to reach). The new *in* is top hung bottom latched full
length openers.

Thoughts please. Does uPVC really stay clean and shiny for 20 years?

Non white might.


Are these fancy sliding fixings reliable?

Yes, IME.

Can a bottom opening style meet the fire escape regulations.


Pass.

Why not go for full height casement with egress hinges? (and egress hinges
often have an "easy clean" mode).

On 18/05/2016 21:24, Tim Lamb wrote:
As an antidote to the Brexit discussion I intend to beg comment on a
series of queries related to an about to start extension/major refurb.
of an existing timber frame chalet bungalow.



Thoughts please. Does uPVC really stay clean and shiny for 20 years?

Clean and white Yes. Shiny No.

Mike

Tim Lamb wrote:
Also, also my wife who is somewhat challenged vertically came back
from a jaunt to the Cotswolds determined that fanlights are out! (hard
to clean and hard to reach). The new *in* is top hung bottom latched
full length openers.

Thoughts please. Does uPVC really stay clean and shiny for 20 years?

Are these fancy sliding fixings reliable?

Can a bottom opening style meet the fire escape regulations.

Well, all my cheapy opening PVC windows are top hung and bottom
latched. We have had one hinge failure in 35 years on a big 3.5H x 4W
ft unit. This cost £35 to have replaced. The finish is still excellent
even on the South facing units, which get full sun in summer. They are
easier to meet fire escape regulations with as the access is so good.
However, the opening mechanism must be childproofed to stop them
committing suicide when they fall out which they try to do regularly.
The locking mechanism is very flimsy, but the favoured tool for breaking
in is a blow lamp, so that doesn't really come into it. Make sure the
glass is fitted from the inside, this is easier to fit and more secure.

"Jim White" wrote in message
...
In message
Tim Lamb wrote:

[snip]

Personally, I detest uPVC. It creaks and groans in hot weather, and
whilst staying white, the gloss does degrade. Good aluminium is robust,
and you have the options of a huge range of powder coat colours if
required.

HTH

I too detest uPVC, because it makes old houses look like dolls houses. I am
very pleased with the aluminium double-glazing I've had in my 1901 terraced
house for 25 years - it is unobtrusive.

Another thing I was careful to avoid is non-flat glass, which I often see.
It doesn't affect the view through it, but the reflections off it make it
look like plastic windows on a dolls house!
--
Dave W

In message , Dave W
writes

Another thing I was careful to avoid is non-flat glass, which I often see.
It doesn't affect the view through it, but the reflections off it make it
look like plastic windows on a dolls house!

Tangent alert! Our windows are all still original Victorian sash, and
many panes (with flaws) are probably original, too. One bedroom window,
at the front, is odd. Traditional sash, with four panes of glass, yet
one of the four always looks as though it is not there, from outside. It
just looks dark, and you would think the whole pane was missing. Looking
out, from the bedroom, it looks exactly like the other three. No idea
why.

--
Graeme

"News" wrote in message
...
In message , Dave W
writes

Another thing I was careful to avoid is non-flat glass, which I often see.
It doesn't affect the view through it, but the reflections off it make it
look like plastic windows on a dolls house!

Tangent alert! Our windows are all still original Victorian sash, and
many panes (with flaws) are probably original, too. One bedroom window,
at the front, is odd. Traditional sash, with four panes of glass, yet one
of the four always looks as though it is not there, from outside. It just
looks dark, and you would think the whole pane was missing. Looking out,
from the bedroom, it looks exactly like the other three. No idea why.

Interesting. Perhaps it has a non-reflective coating on it, sometimes used
on swish buildings and picture frames.
--
Dave W

"News" wrote in message
...
In message , Dave W
writes

Another thing I was careful to avoid is non-flat glass, which I often see.
It doesn't affect the view through it, but the reflections off it make it
look like plastic windows on a dolls house!

Tangent alert!

I'd have you publicly flogged if you hadn't enjoyed that so much the last
time.

Our windows are all still original Victorian sash, and many panes (with
flaws) are probably original, too. One bedroom window, at the front, is
odd. Traditional sash, with four panes of glass, yet one of the four
always looks as though it is not there, from outside. It just looks dark,
and you would think the whole pane was missing. Looking out, from the
bedroom, it looks exactly like the other three. No idea why.

Presumably the outer surface is different because
it got broken and replaced at some time.

In message , Rod Speed
writes
"News" wrote in message
...

Our windows are all still original Victorian sash, and many panes
(with flaws) are probably original, too. One bedroom window, at the
front, is odd. Traditional sash, with four panes of glass, yet one
of the four always looks as though it is not there, from outside. It
just looks dark, and you would think the whole pane was missing.
Looking out, from the bedroom, it looks exactly like the other three.
No idea why.

Presumably the outer surface is different because
it got broken and replaced at some time.

Indeed, but why? Other panes have been replaced over time, and look the
same from both inside and outside. Why just that one? Rhetorical
question, really. Strange, though.

--
Graeme

In message , Dave W
writes
"News" wrote in message
...

Tangent alert! Our windows are all still original Victorian sash, and
many panes (with flaws) are probably original, too. One bedroom window,
at the front, is odd. Traditional sash, with four panes of glass, yet one
of the four always looks as though it is not there, from outside. It just
looks dark, and you would think the whole pane was missing. Looking out,
from the bedroom, it looks exactly like the other three. No idea why.

Interesting. Perhaps it has a non-reflective coating on it, sometimes used
on swish buildings and picture frames.

Possible, I suppose, but why? Why would anyone use anything but plain,
ordinary domestic glass? I don't know. First time I noticed it from
outside, I ran upstairs, thinking the pane had been broken, convinced I
would find a golf ball or similar in the bedroom.

--
Graeme

On Thu, 19 May 2016 20:32:58 +0100, News wrote:

In message , Dave W
writes
"News" wrote in message
...

Tangent alert! Our windows are all still original Victorian sash, and
many panes (with flaws) are probably original, too. One bedroom
window, at the front, is odd. Traditional sash, with four panes of
glass, yet one of the four always looks as though it is not there,
from outside. It just looks dark, and you would think the whole pane
was missing. Looking out, from the bedroom, it looks exactly like the
other three. No idea why.

Interesting. Perhaps it has a non-reflective coating on it, sometimes
used on swish buildings and picture frames.

Possible, I suppose, but why? Why would anyone use anything but plain,
ordinary domestic glass? I don't know.

They got it free?

The guy who owned the house before us was an electrician for Network Rail/
British Rail. Our conservatory is floored with offcuts from Victoria
Station.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

In message , News
writes
In message , Rod Speed
writes
"News" wrote in message
...

Our windows are all still original Victorian sash, and many panes
(with flaws) are probably original, too. One bedroom window, at the
front, is odd. Traditional sash, with four panes of glass, yet one
of the four always looks as though it is not there, from outside. It
just looks dark, and you would think the whole pane was missing.
Looking out, from the bedroom, it looks exactly like the other three. No idea why.

Presumably the outer surface is different because
it got broken and replaced at some time.

Indeed, but why? Other panes have been replaced over time, and look
the same from both inside and outside. Why just that one? Rhetorical
question, really. Strange, though.

Broken and replaced with Pilkington K. ?

--
Tim Lamb

In message , Jim White
writes
In message
Tim Lamb wrote:


[snip]

Have a look for an approved fabricator for Schuco or Reynaers systems.
IIRC they both offer slim sections.

Top hung should be fine, but may require restrictors to combat the
danger of a fall hazard. Have you considered tilt and turn?

Friction stays on higher end systems are better engineered. I agree many
resemble meccano, and appear flimsy.

Personally, I detest uPVC. It creaks and groans in hot weather, and
whilst staying white, the gloss does degrade. Good aluminium is robust,
and you have the options of a huge range of powder coat colours if
required.

Trawling the showrooms has failed to find any slim aluminium windows on
display.

The 18K quote was Schuco.

The response has been encouraging regarding hinging and friction stays.
I take the points about restrictors as we have visiting grandchildren.

I think we will pursue the aluminium solution and ditch any idea of
reusing the existing timber units.

--
Tim Lamb

"News" wrote in message
...
In message , Rod Speed
writes
"News" wrote in message
...

Our windows are all still original Victorian sash, and many panes (with
flaws) are probably original, too. One bedroom window, at the front, is
odd. Traditional sash, with four panes of glass, yet one of the four
always looks as though it is not there, from outside. It just looks
dark, and you would think the whole pane was missing. Looking out, from
the bedroom, it looks exactly like the other three. No idea why.

Presumably the outer surface is different because
it got broken and replaced at some time.

Indeed, but why? Other panes have been replaced over time, and look the
same from both inside and outside. Why just that one? Rhetorical
question, really. Strange, though.

Presumably because that was either all that was readily
available in that size at the time it needed to be replaced
or whoever used it didn't actually notice that it was anything
different to what was already there.

On Wednesday, 18 May 2016 21:24:24 UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:

As an antidote to the Brexit discussion I intend to beg comment on a
series of queries related to an about to start extension/major refurb.
of an existing timber frame chalet bungalow.

Not having Tim Ws stamina the bulk of the structural/roofing work will
be done by a local building company.

Q1. The existing windows are narrow spacing double glazed in brown
painted pine. Two or three panels are blown and need renewing anyway. My
first thought was to strip out the glass and strip off the paint.
Re-paint in white and fit modern argon filled panels. However, the
glazing rebate is much too narrow to use 4:16:4 units.

Six new windows are required for the alterations so current thinking is
to go for new throughout. First estimate for 12 windows and two doors
came in at 18K fitted. This afternoon was spent trawling round the local
showrooms. I'm not much wiser:-( The much vaunted narrow mullion
aluminium does not seem to exist. By the time they have put in the
plastic thermal break and endless folds for strength and appearance they
are as fat as uPVC.

Why replace the existing windows? Just fix them like for like if they're misting.



Thoughts please. Does uPVC really stay clean and shiny for 20 years?

the gloss goes & it becomes somewhat uncleanable. If facing onto a street there's also a slight risk of cigarette burns. I'd plan on a set of windows staying for a lot longer than 20 years!

With new PVC I'd go for external glazing. The advantage is that when the sealed unit seals fail (not if), they don't mist up & don't need replacing.

Have you considered new durable species timber windows to match the existing? (but with deeper whatsits.)

If you go for ali windows, beware of colour finishes such as powder coating. Nothing sticks well to ali, lumps come off in time. They only reliable way to colour ali is anodisation.


NT

In message ,
writes
Six new windows are required for the alterations so current thinking is
to go for new throughout. First estimate for 12 windows and two doors
came in at 18K fitted. This afternoon was spent trawling round the local
showrooms. I'm not much wiser:-( The much vaunted narrow mullion
aluminium does not seem to exist. By the time they have put in the
plastic thermal break and endless folds for strength and appearance they
are as fat as uPVC.

Why replace the existing windows? Just fix them like for like if
they're misting.

Elsewhere, the architect has specified 4-20-4 argon filled. The existing
window rebate is much too narrow. Also new windows will be visible on
the frontage and jar with the existing.



Thoughts please. Does uPVC really stay clean and shiny for 20 years?

the gloss goes & it becomes somewhat uncleanable. If facing onto a
street there's also a slight risk of cigarette burns. I'd plan on a set
of windows staying for a lot longer than 20 years!

Isolated plot, set back from the highway.

With new PVC I'd go for external glazing. The advantage is that when
the sealed unit seals fail (not if), they don't mist up & don't need
replacing.

Please enlarge. I thought the only difference was whether the burglars
could prise them out.

Have you considered new durable species timber windows to match the
existing? (but with deeper whatsits.)

Not yet. This will be out last house and I am trying to avoid
predictable maintenance.

If you go for ali windows, beware of colour finishes such as powder
coating. Nothing sticks well to ali, lumps come off in time. They only
reliable way to colour ali is anodisation.

OK. There doesn't seem to be a raft of disgruntled powder paint owners
out there.


NT

--
Tim Lamb

On 19/05/16 20:32, News wrote:
In message , Dave W
writes
"News" wrote in message
...

Tangent alert! Our windows are all still original Victorian sash, and
many panes (with flaws) are probably original, too. One bedroom window,
at the front, is odd. Traditional sash, with four panes of glass,
yet one
of the four always looks as though it is not there, from outside. It
just
looks dark, and you would think the whole pane was missing. Looking out,
from the bedroom, it looks exactly like the other three. No idea why.

Interesting. Perhaps it has a non-reflective coating on it, sometimes
used
on swish buildings and picture frames.

Possible, I suppose, but why? Why would anyone use anything but plain,
ordinary domestic glass? I don't know. First time I noticed it from
outside, I ran upstairs, thinking the pane had been broken, convinced I
would find a golf ball or similar in the bedroom.

That's the one where the neighorhood perves footprints were found?


--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

wrote:

With new PVC I'd go for external glazing. The advantage is that when the sealed unit seals fail (not if), they don't mist up & don't need replacing.

The disadvantage being that scrotes can quietly remove the glazing bars
and sealed unit from outside ...

On Friday, 20 May 2016 09:40:21 UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message ,
tabbypurr writes

Six new windows are required for the alterations so current thinking is
to go for new throughout. First estimate for 12 windows and two doors
came in at 18K fitted. This afternoon was spent trawling round the local
showrooms. I'm not much wiser:-( The much vaunted narrow mullion
aluminium does not seem to exist. By the time they have put in the
plastic thermal break and endless folds for strength and appearance they
are as fat as uPVC.

Why replace the existing windows? Just fix them like for like if
they're misting.

Elsewhere, the architect has specified 4-20-4 argon filled. The existing
window rebate is much too narrow. Also new windows will be visible on
the frontage and jar with the existing.

You can specify what you like, as long as it meets BR.


Thoughts please. Does uPVC really stay clean and shiny for 20 years?

the gloss goes & it becomes somewhat uncleanable. If facing onto a
street there's also a slight risk of cigarette burns. I'd plan on a set
of windows staying for a lot longer than 20 years!

Isolated plot, set back from the highway.

With new PVC I'd go for external glazing. The advantage is that when
the sealed unit seals fail (not if), they don't mist up & don't need
replacing.

Please enlarge. I thought the only difference was whether the burglars
could prise them out.

That's the usual reason quoted for internal glazing, but imho it's a bit of a false one. External glazed windows use glazing tape, a very tough adhesive that prevents that. To get in you'd need to take the same measures required to enter through internal glazed windows.

Unsealed DG mists because the inner space is exposed to the same water vapour level as indoors, but the temp is lower. Expose that space to the lower outdoor water vapour levels and it simply does not mist. External glazing does the latter, internal glazing the former.


Have you considered new durable species timber windows to match the
existing? (but with deeper whatsits.)

Not yet. This will be out last house and I am trying to avoid
predictable maintenance.

hence I said durable species.

If you go for ali windows, beware of colour finishes such as powder
coating. Nothing sticks well to ali, lumps come off in time. They only
reliable way to colour ali is anodisation.

OK. There doesn't seem to be a raft of disgruntled powder paint owners
out there.

Well, that's how ali is. Nothing sticks to it forever. Google can confirm.


NT

On Fri, 20 May 2016 03:45:40 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:



Unsealed DG mists because the inner space is exposed to the same water
vapour level as indoors, but the temp is lower. Expose that space to the
lower outdoor water vapour levels and it simply does not mist. External
glazing does the latter, internal glazing the former.


My externally glazed units has one that is now misting up. Or is this the
exception to prove the rule?

In message , Mark
Allread writes
On Fri, 20 May 2016 03:45:40 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:



Unsealed DG mists because the inner space is exposed to the same water
vapour level as indoors, but the temp is lower. Expose that space to the
lower outdoor water vapour levels and it simply does not mist. External
glazing does the latter, internal glazing the former.


My externally glazed units has one that is now misting up. Or is this the
exception to prove the rule?

The misted ones I have are in timber windows so externally glazed.

20+ years though!


--
Tim Lamb

On Fri, 20 May 2016 13:04:28 +0100, Tim Lamb wrote:

In message , Mark
Allread writes
On Fri, 20 May 2016 03:45:40 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:



Unsealed DG mists because the inner space is exposed to the same water
vapour level as indoors, but the temp is lower. Expose that space to
the lower outdoor water vapour levels and it simply does not mist.
External glazing does the latter, internal glazing the former.


My externally glazed units has one that is now misting up. Or is this
the exception to prove the rule?

The misted ones I have are in timber windows so externally glazed.

20+ years though!


Probably a similar age here too but in white UPVC frames.

"News" wrote in message
...
In message , Dave W
writes
"News" wrote in message
...

Tangent alert! Our windows are all still original Victorian sash, and
many panes (with flaws) are probably original, too. One bedroom window,
at the front, is odd. Traditional sash, with four panes of glass, yet
one
of the four always looks as though it is not there, from outside. It
just
looks dark, and you would think the whole pane was missing. Looking out,
from the bedroom, it looks exactly like the other three. No idea why.

Interesting. Perhaps it has a non-reflective coating on it, sometimes used
on swish buildings and picture frames.

Possible, I suppose, but why? Why would anyone use anything but plain,
ordinary domestic glass? I don't know. First time I noticed it from
outside, I ran upstairs, thinking the pane had been broken, convinced I
would find a golf ball or similar in the bedroom.

Either a mistake, or using up a bit of surplus non-reflective glass.
--
Dave W

On Friday, 20 May 2016 12:47:16 UTC+1, Mark Allread wrote:
On Fri, 20 May 2016 03:45:40 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:



Unsealed DG mists because the inner space is exposed to the same water
vapour level as indoors, but the temp is lower. Expose that space to the
lower outdoor water vapour levels and it simply does not mist. External
glazing does the latter, internal glazing the former.


My externally glazed units has one that is now misting up.

Is water running into the frame or something?


NT

Wrote in message:
On Friday, 20 May 2016 12:47:16 UTC+1, Mark Allread wrote:
On Fri, 20 May 2016 03:45:40 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:



Unsealed DG mists because the inner space is exposed to the same water
vapour level as indoors, but the temp is lower. Expose that space to the
lower outdoor water vapour levels and it simply does not mist. External
glazing does the latter, internal glazing the former.


My externally glazed units has one that is now misting up.

Is water running into the frame or something?


NT


And draining out through the external drainage slots put there on
purpose during manufacture...
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

wrote:
On Friday, 20 May 2016 09:40:21 UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:

In ,
tabbypurr writes


Six new windows are required for the alterations so current thinking is
to go for new throughout. First estimate for 12 windows and two doors
came in at 18K fitted. This afternoon was spent trawling round the local
showrooms. I'm not much wiser:-( The much vaunted narrow mullion
aluminium does not seem to exist. By the time they have put in the
plastic thermal break and endless folds for strength and appearance they
are as fat as uPVC.

Why replace the existing windows? Just fix them like for like if
they're misting.

Elsewhere, the architect has specified 4-20-4 argon filled. The existing
window rebate is much too narrow. Also new windows will be visible on
the frontage and jar with the existing.

You can specify what you like, as long as it meets BR.



Thoughts please. Does uPVC really stay clean and shiny for 20 years?

the gloss goes& it becomes somewhat uncleanable. If facing onto a
street there's also a slight risk of cigarette burns. I'd plan on a set
of windows staying for a lot longer than 20 years!

Isolated plot, set back from the highway.

With new PVC I'd go for external glazing. The advantage is that when
the sealed unit seals fail (not if), they don't mist up& don't need
replacing.

Please enlarge. I thought the only difference was whether the burglars
could prise them out.

That's the usual reason quoted for internal glazing, but imho it's a bit of a false one. External glazed windows use glazing tape, a very tough adhesive that prevents that. To get in you'd need to take the same measures required to enter through internal glazed windows.

Unsealed DG mists because the inner space is exposed to the same water vapour level as indoors, but the temp is lower. Expose that space to the lower outdoor water vapour levels and it simply does not mist. External glazing does the latter, internal glazing the former.



Have you considered new durable species timber windows to match the
existing? (but with deeper whatsits.)

Not yet. This will be out last house and I am trying to avoid
predictable maintenance.

hence I said durable species.


If you go for ali windows, beware of colour finishes such as powder
coating. Nothing sticks well to ali, lumps come off in time. They only
reliable way to colour ali is anodisation.

OK. There doesn't seem to be a raft of disgruntled powder paint owners
out there.

Well, that's how ali is. Nothing sticks to it forever. Google can confirm.


NT


My experience is that externally mounted sealed units mist when the
seals fail. PVC does lose it's shine, but who cares? My units still are
white after 35 years. My aluminium windows are 40 yrs old and the
white paint finish is still as good as new.

In message , Capitol
writes

My experience is that externally mounted sealed units mist when the
seals fail. PVC does lose it's shine, but who cares? My units still are
white after 35 years. My aluminium windows are 40 yrs old and the
white paint finish is still as good as new.

OK. Will see me out, then:-(

I think we have covered this topic. Thanks.

--
Tim Lamb

On Saturday, 21 May 2016 08:44:22 UTC+1, jim wrote:
tabbypurr Wrote in message:
On Friday, 20 May 2016 12:47:16 UTC+1, Mark Allread wrote:
On Fri, 20 May 2016 03:45:40 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:



Unsealed DG mists because the inner space is exposed to the same water
vapour level as indoors, but the temp is lower. Expose that space to the
lower outdoor water vapour levels and it simply does not mist. External
glazing does the latter, internal glazing the former.


My externally glazed units has one that is now misting up.

Is water running into the frame or something?

And draining out through the external drainage slots put there on
purpose during manufacture...

obviously, as anyone that's ever even looked at a dg window knows.


NT

Wrote in message:
On Saturday, 21 May 2016 08:44:22 UTC+1, jim wrote:
tabbypurr Wrote in message:
On Friday, 20 May 2016 12:47:16 UTC+1, Mark Allread wrote:
On Fri, 20 May 2016 03:45:40 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:



Unsealed DG mists because the inner space is exposed to the same water
vapour level as indoors, but the temp is lower. Expose that space to the
lower outdoor water vapour levels and it simply does not mist. External
glazing does the latter, internal glazing the former.


My externally glazed units has one that is now misting up.

Is water running into the frame or something?

And draining out through the external drainage slots put there on
purpose during manufacture...

obviously, as anyone that's ever even looked at a dg window knows.


NT


And you do now...

Similar vents also exist (in mine, YMMV) to drain the rebates
where the dble glazed units sit, which would rather blow your
bizarre if imaginative "theory" of internal vapour levels bring
responsible for misted units... ;-)
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 21/05/2016 11:47, Capitol wrote:




Have you considered new durable species timber windows to match the
existing? (but with deeper whatsits.)

Not yet. This will be out last house and I am trying to avoid
predictable maintenance.

hence I said durable species.


If you go for ali windows, beware of colour finishes such as powder
coating. Nothing sticks well to ali, lumps come off in time. They only
reliable way to colour ali is anodisation.

OK. There doesn't seem to be a raft of disgruntled powder paint owners
out there.

Well, that's how ali is. Nothing sticks to it forever. Google can
confirm.


NT


My experience is that externally mounted sealed units mist when the
seals fail. PVC does lose it's shine, but who cares? My units still are
white after 35 years. My aluminium windows are 40 yrs old and the
white paint finish is still as good as new.


had my plastics in since 1976, south facing and still clean and white.

On Wednesday, 18 May 2016 21:24:24 UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:

Q1. The existing windows are narrow spacing double glazed in
brown painted pine. Two or three panels are blown and need
renewing anyway.

Can you get hold of rebated units? Get one or two spares as there could be more on their way out and they might be slightly cheaper to buy that way?

On Thursday, 19 May 2016 11:37:06 UTC+1, News wrote:
In message , Dave W
writes

Another thing I was careful to avoid is non-flat glass, which I often see.
It doesn't affect the view through it, but the reflections off it make it
look like plastic windows on a dolls house!

Tangent alert! Our windows are all still original Victorian sash, and
many panes (with flaws) are probably original, too. One bedroom window,
at the front, is odd. Traditional sash, with four panes of glass, yet
one of the four always looks as though it is not there, from outside. It
just looks dark, and you would think the whole pane was missing. Looking
out, from the bedroom, it looks exactly like the other three. No idea
why.

If it is a different/float glass it could look like that especially as the optical qualities or older glass wasn't as good as float. The only other reason I can imagine is the plane viewed from outside which would obviously change as the viewer moves.

In message ,
Weatherlawyer writes
On Wednesday, 18 May 2016 21:24:24 UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:

Q1. The existing windows are narrow spacing double glazed in
brown painted pine. Two or three panels are blown and need
renewing anyway.

Can you get hold of rebated units? Get one or two spares as there could
be more on their way out and they might be slightly cheaper to buy that
way?

Rebated DG is new to me. I suppose the obvious would be triple glaze.
I'll bear it in mind. Currently I am thinking of new aluminium
throughout.

--
Tim Lamb

On Sunday, 22 May 2016 21:25:06 UTC+1, jim wrote:
tabbypurr Wrote in message:
On Saturday, 21 May 2016 08:44:22 UTC+1, jim wrote:
tabbypurr Wrote in message:
On Friday, 20 May 2016 12:47:16 UTC+1, Mark Allread wrote:
On Fri, 20 May 2016 03:45:40 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:



Unsealed DG mists because the inner space is exposed to the same water
vapour level as indoors, but the temp is lower. Expose that space to the
lower outdoor water vapour levels and it simply does not mist. External
glazing does the latter, internal glazing the former.


My externally glazed units has one that is now misting up.

Is water running into the frame or something?

And draining out through the external drainage slots put there on
purpose during manufacture...

obviously, as anyone that's ever even looked at a dg window knows.

And you do now...

I did the first time I looked at one. As does anyone with basic observation skills.

Similar vents also exist (in mine, YMMV) to drain the rebates
where the dble glazed units sit, which would rather blow your
bizarre if imaginative "theory" of internal vapour levels bring
responsible for misted units... ;-)

Water running into the frame can sometimes get into the sealed unit.

You're as thick, argumentative and childish as Rod, just a lot quieter.


NT

Wrote in message:
On Sunday, 22 May 2016 21:25:06 UTC+1, jim wrote:
tabbypurr Wrote in message:
On Saturday, 21 May 2016 08:44:22 UTC+1, jim wrote:
tabbypurr Wrote in message:
On Friday, 20 May 2016 12:47:16 UTC+1, Mark Allread wrote:
On Fri, 20 May 2016 03:45:40 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:



Unsealed DG mists because the inner space is exposed to the same water
vapour level as indoors, but the temp is lower. Expose that space to the
lower outdoor water vapour levels and it simply does not mist. External
glazing does the latter, internal glazing the former.


My externally glazed units has one that is now misting up.

Is water running into the frame or something?

And draining out through the external drainage slots put there on
purpose during manufacture...

obviously, as anyone that's ever even looked at a dg window knows.

And you do now...

I did the first time I looked at one. As does anyone with basic observation skills.

Similar vents also exist (in mine, YMMV) to drain the rebates
where the dble glazed units sit, which would rather blow your
bizarre if imaginative "theory" of internal vapour levels bring
responsible for misted units... ;-)

Water running into the frame can sometimes get into the sealed unit.

You're as thick, argumentative and childish as Rod, just a lot quieter.


NT

You're a loser with a big chip nige
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/