In the light of the thread about the LAP 60W equiv LED bulbs at Screwfix, all the BC versions were sold out so I got some ES versions. Then I realised the adapters I got off ebay are all the other way round. But it got me thinking - should I change my pendants to ES fittings ? The adapters are smaller that way round, since the BC connector nestles inside the ES screw.
The big question. Are ES bulbs becoming more common than BC ? Any reason not to change my fittings ?
Simon.

On 13/01/2016 09:16, sm_jamieson wrote:
In the light of the thread about the LAP 60W equiv LED bulbs at Screwfix,
all the BC versions were sold out so I got some ES versions. Then I
realised
the adapters I got off ebay are all the other way round. But it got
me thinking
- should I change my pendants to ES fittings ? The adapters are
smaller that way round,
since the BC connector nestles inside the ES screw.
The big question. Are ES bulbs becoming more common than BC ? Any reason not to change my fittings ?
Simon.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to buy the right thing in the first place?

ES has become slightly more common in the UK as European chains like
Ikea and Olson tend to stock kit that is Edison screw. I have a mixture
of ES and BC in both sizes having lived overseas at various times.

I generally benefit from the unpopularity of ES as they are often
remaindered half price in Aldi/Lidl and work perfectly well enough. They
don't seem to have spotted that UK is mostly BC.

I see no merit making work changing light fittings for the sake of it.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin Brown wrote:
On 13/01/2016 09:16, sm_jamieson wrote:
In the light of the thread about the LAP 60W equiv LED bulbs at Screwfix,
all the BC versions were sold out so I got some ES versions. Then I
realised
the adapters I got off ebay are all the other way round. But it got
me thinking
- should I change my pendants to ES fittings ? The adapters are
smaller that way round,
since the BC connector nestles inside the ES screw.
The big question. Are ES bulbs becoming more common than BC ? Any
reason not to change my fittings ?
Simon.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to buy the right thing in the first place?

ES has become slightly more common in the UK as European chains like
Ikea and Olson tend to stock kit that is Edison screw. I have a mixture
of ES and BC in both sizes having lived overseas at various times.

I generally benefit from the unpopularity of ES as they are often
remaindered half price in Aldi/Lidl and work perfectly well enough. They
don't seem to have spotted that UK is mostly BC.

I see no merit making work changing light fittings for the sake of it.


Also the normal lampshades will not fit as the ES outer diameter (+
insulation?) is greater. There don't seem to be easy ES equivalents for
the normal British pendant lampholder, it is better suited to purpose
designed light fitting/lamps where the different dimensions are designed in.

Seems to me ES is OK in enclosed fittings, particularly where the lamp
is base down but is a PITA for normal pendant fittings.

Chris K

In article ,
sm_jamieson wrote:
In the light of the thread about the LAP 60W equiv LED bulbs at
Screwfix, all the BC versions were sold out so I got some ES versions.
Then I realised the adapters I got off ebay are all the other way round.
But it got me thinking - should I change my pendants to ES fittings ?
The adapters are smaller that way round, since the BC connector nestles
inside the ES screw. The big question. Are ES bulbs becoming more common
than BC ? Any reason not to change my fittings ?

Good luck in finding pendant ES bulb holders. You'd think it would be
simple.

--
*What boots up must come down *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

sm_jamieson wrote:
Are ES bulbs becoming more common than BC ?

ISTM there's some such evidence - as in "today IKEA, tomorrow the
world".
--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

On 13/01/2016 11:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
sm_jamieson wrote:
In the light of the thread about the LAP 60W equiv LED bulbs at
Screwfix, all the BC versions were sold out so I got some ES versions.
Then I realised the adapters I got off ebay are all the other way round.
But it got me thinking - should I change my pendants to ES fittings ?
The adapters are smaller that way round, since the BC connector nestles
inside the ES screw. The big question. Are ES bulbs becoming more common
than BC ? Any reason not to change my fittings ?

Good luck in finding pendant ES bulb holders. You'd think it would be
simple.


Not the prettiest things, but:

http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/00306741/

--
Cheers, Rob

Robin wrote:
sm_jamieson wrote:
Are ES bulbs becoming more common than BC ?

ISTM there's some such evidence - as in "today IKEA, tomorrow the
world".

My guess would be that, as lighting becomes increasingly globalised, bayonet
is going to occupy more of a backwater and there will be a shift towards ES
in the UK.

Mains plugs is a similar example, albeit restricted by legislation (is there
any relevant regulations relating to BC v ES?). For instance it's not
unheard of to get a low-power appliance with a two-pin European plug, and then
a Euro to UK adaptor (eg a permanent-fit, clamp-on one) in the box.

Since it's rather ungainly to adapt BC to ES, I'd expect the 'Ikea effect'
to mean that portable lamps end up being ES, and maybe only fixed
installations BC.

Presumably ES pendant lampholders are common on the Continent? In which
case, is it contrary to wiring regs to import and fit them?

(One advantage of ES is you can be sure of polarity, which is something the
UK seems to care more about than other regimes)

Maybe this will all be moot if the concept of a removable 'bulb' disappears
in the brave new world of portable LED lighting... I can't say I've seen any
LED cycle lamps (for instance) with removable LEDs.

Theo

In article ,
Theo wrote:
My guess would be that, as lighting becomes increasingly globalised,
bayonet is going to occupy more of a backwater and there will be a shift
towards ES in the UK.

Mains plugs is a similar example, albeit restricted by legislation (is
there any relevant regulations relating to BC v ES?). For instance it's
not unheard of to get a low-power appliance with a two-pin European
plug, and then a Euro to UK adaptor (eg a permanent-fit, clamp-on one)
in the box.

Going back to that type of plug in the UK would be a retrograde step -
and how. We are fairly unique in having only the one plug which covers
pretty well all domestic requirements. We used to have multiple standards
of plugs. Thank gawd those days have gone.

--
*When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

sm_jamieson wrote:

Are ES bulbs becoming more common than BC
? Any reason not to change my fittings ?

I don't know if they are becoming more common,
but they seem to me to be a much better system.

By contrast, the British 3-pin plug and socket
appear to me to be far safer and more reliable
than their 2- and 3-pin continental counterparts.
--
Timothy Murphy
gayleard /at/ eircom.net
School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Theo wrote:
My guess would be that, as lighting becomes increasingly globalised,
bayonet is going to occupy more of a backwater and there will be a shift
towards ES in the UK.

Mains plugs is a similar example, albeit restricted by legislation (is
there any relevant regulations relating to BC v ES?). For instance it's
not unheard of to get a low-power appliance with a two-pin European
plug, and then a Euro to UK adaptor (eg a permanent-fit, clamp-on one)
in the box.

Going back to that type of plug in the UK would be a retrograde step -
and how. We are fairly unique in having only the one plug which covers
pretty well all domestic requirements. We used to have multiple standards
of plugs. Thank gawd those days have gone.

Really? Are the European and US plugs not rated up to 13 A (or similar)? Are
there heavier-duty plugs/sockets in those countries for big appliances like
electric fires, kettles, tumble driers etc.

Are US and European plugs capable of having a fuse fitted in them, or do
their appliances always blow the circuit (eg downstairs ring main) fuse in
the event of an appliance fault? I wonder whether RCDs and MCBs will ever
become so cheap that they are fitted to each appliance plug so a faulty
appliance disrupts only that appliance rather than taking out the whole
house.

Another advantage of our plug is that polarity is guaranteed: there's no
live/neutral ambiguity. And all appliances can be earthed (assuming that the
appliance is fitted with a three-core cable and the plug has a metal rather
than plastic earth pin!).


I wish the bayonet blub had become a world standard, because it is *much*
less likely to corrode in place than the ES bulb, and it is faster to
change - it only requires a flick of the wrist through about 10 degrees
rather than several turns.

Until I went to Ikea, I'd thought that ES was confined to the US, and that
Europe used the BC like us - a nice clear BC=240V / ES=120V distinction. But
no. Do 240V and 120V bulbs have identical-sized screw threads, or are they
deliberately incompatible sizes to avoid putting a 120V bulb in a 240V
fitting?

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Going back to that type of plug in the UK would be a retrograde step -
and how. We are fairly unique in having only the one plug which covers
pretty well all domestic requirements. We used to have multiple standards
of plugs. Thank gawd those days have gone.

Agreed. However there is market pressure for 'one global SKU'.

There are plenty of ways around that:
Equipping the item with an IEC socket and then supplying the appropriate
cable as a extra
Equipping the item with a micro USB socket and not shipping any kind of
charger
Equipping the item with a wall wart with removable face plates
Equipping the item with a US/Euro plug and adding a clamp-on adaptor
Shipping a 'travel adaptor' (I think this is forbidden in the UK,
but may be allowed elsewhere)

I suggest that, if ES in table lamps isn't prohibited by code, globalised
supply will mean it'll become the de-facto standard. That is, if they don't
go all LED and abandon removable fittings altogether.

Theo

"Timothy Murphy" wrote in message
...
sm_jamieson wrote:

Are ES bulbs becoming more common than BC
? Any reason not to change my fittings ?

I don't know if they are becoming more common,
but they seem to me to be a much better system.

In what way is ES better than BC. I'd have said BC is far better because it
is quicker to change. It's a shame that there isn't a single standard for
all bulbs of the same voltage, to avoid the need to keep in small ES, large
ES, small BC, large BC bulbs for all the different fittings. My old house
was a show house and came with various light fittings in different rooms.
They'd used all hour different types of fittings (SES, LES, SBC, LBC) in
different rooms, even though all bulbs were the same size of glass (standard
candle bulb).

I wish someone would outlaw light fittings which expose the bare bulb - the
glare from a frosted bulb is bad enough but the glare from the cheapo clear
bulbs, where you can see the filament, is even worse.

I wish I could persuade my wife that I prefer to read in bed by a light
behind (or at one side of) the bed head, rather than by an overhead light
beyond the foot of the bed, where it's right in your field of vision when
you are looking at a book: rather than illuminating the page more brightly
than the rest of the room, you get the opposite :-(

On Wednesday, 13 January 2016 12:12:58 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Going back to that type of plug in the UK would be a retrograde step -
and how. We are fairly unique in having only the one plug which covers
pretty well all domestic requirements.

We do not. We have one type of plug (shavers and mantel-clocks apart) which must be used for all plug-in domestic purposes, and we generally have too few wall-sockets. The 13A plug is too big for all ordinary purposes except for heaters and domestic appliances.

For new-build, we should have another type of ring main, rated for half of the current, and with plentiful 230V AC wall sockets similar to IEC C13/C14 (cf. kettle and computer monitor leads). The plugs, when shrouded by resilient plastic, are strong enough for being trodden on. They would, of course, be fused.

We should also have a smaller and even more plentiful type of socket, different from any in current use for any different purpose, supplying say 12V 1A (AC xor DC), for small electronic equipment.

That should be done by way of a pan-European Standard.

But it will not happen in our time. |

--
(c) Dr. S. Lartius, UK. Gmail: dr.s.lartius@

On Wednesday, 13 January 2016 13:42:33 UTC+1, NY wrote:
Really? Are the European and US plugs not rated up to 13 A (or similar)?

Can only speak for Germany. Larger plugs are rated for (I think) 16A.
The smaller Euro two-pin (no earth) plug are lower 2.5A.

Are there heavier-duty plugs/sockets in those countries for big
appliances like electric fires, kettles, tumble driers etc.

Yes. Also for anything that needs an earth.


Are US and European plugs capable of having a fuse fitted in them
No

or do
their appliances always blow the circuit (eg downstairs ring main)
What ring main? Everything is wired as (chained) radials. But yes,
the only fuse is in the consumer unit.


fuse in
the event of an appliance fault? I wonder whether RCDs and MCBs will ever
become so cheap that they are fitted to each appliance plug so a faulty
appliance disrupts only that appliance rather than taking out the whole
house.

Another advantage of our plug is that polarity is guaranteed: there's no
live/neutral ambiguity.

Yes. We have a some light that switch on or off by a capacitive effect.
They don't work if plugged in the wrong way round - the plug has to be
rotated 180 degrees.

And all appliances can be earthed (assuming that
the appliance is fitted with a three-core cable and the plug has a metal
rather than plastic earth pin!).

Until I went to Ikea, I'd thought that ES was confined to the US, and that
Europe used the BC like us - a nice clear BC=240V / ES=120V distinction.
But no.

Do 240V and 120V bulbs have identical-sized screw threads, or are
they deliberately incompatible sizes to avoid putting a 120V bulb in a
240V fitting?
No idea, but I would guess from the name ("Edison") that they are identical.

On Wed, 13 Jan 2016 12:51:47 -0000, "NY" wrote:

snip

I wish I could persuade my wife that I prefer to read in bed by a light
behind (or at one side of) the bed head, rather than by an overhead light
beyond the foot of the bed, where it's right in your field of vision when
you are looking at a book: rather than illuminating the page more brightly
than the rest of the room, you get the opposite :-(

Two words: Kindle Paperwhite. ;-)

My Mrs had a Kindle 3 for a long time and it was perfect for her,
*except* if she wanted to read in bed when I wanted to sleep, when she
would go downstairs. She had considered the Paperwhite but was going
to hang on till the K3 broke. As it was discounted just before Xmyth
we (daughter and I) got her one and she's really happy with it.

With the backlight turned right down (it can be pretty bright) I
really don't notice if she's reading it as I fall asleep or if she
wakes up in the night and has a quick read.

But then I guess a Kindle (or any eReader / tablet) would only be a
solution if what you want to read is available in electronic form.

It's funny, the eReaders are what many people who bought laptops in
the early days actually wanted ... 'to have recipes in the kitchen' or
'read manuals in the garage', but few ever used laptops for either of
course.

Do they do the HBOL in Kindle format?

Cheers, T i m

On 13/01/16 13:00, wrote:
We should also have a smaller and even more plentiful type of socket,
different from any in current use for any different purpose,
supplying say 12V 1A (AC xor DC), for small electronic equipment.

That is becoming USB style sockets

However, they cant take the punishment.


--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

People wrote:

all the BC versions were sold out so I got some ES versions. Then I
realised the adapters I got off ebay are all the other way round.

You can get adaptors, but they're not really legal or altogether safe. It's 50/50 whether the outer screw thread is live or not, and I wouldn't want to put 100w in one.


The big question. Are ES bulbs becoming more common than BC ?

no

Any reason not to change my fittings ?

BC are safer, more reliable and more common


My guess would be that, as lighting becomes increasingly globalised, bayonet
is going to occupy more of a backwater and there will be a shift towards ES
in the UK.

It's been globalised for many decades. That hasn't happened.


(is there
any relevant regulations relating to BC v ES?).

not afaik


Presumably ES pendant lampholders are common on the Continent? In which
case, is it contrary to wiring regs to import and fit them?

it depends if they meet our legal requirements. From what I saw of foreign electrics years ago, very little did. That might have changed since.


(One advantage of ES is you can be sure of polarity,

which has no effect on lightbulbs. In fact ES has a downside, namely that if polarity isn't right you've got an exposed live outer screw thread. The outer base of BC lamps is insulated.


Going back to that type of plug in the UK would be a retrograde step -
and how. We are fairly unique in having only the one plug which covers
pretty well all domestic requirements. We used to have multiple standards
of plugs. Thank gawd those days have gone.

Really? Are the European and US plugs not rated up to 13 A (or similar)? Are

IIRC euro are 16A, US 10A 110v = 1.1kW.


there heavier-duty plugs/sockets in those countries for big appliances like
electric fires, kettles, tumble driers etc.

In US, those run on 220v. I think TDs tend to be 5kW.


Are US and European plugs capable of having a fuse fitted in them,

not as is. Redesigning them to would leave lots of unfused plugs about

or do
their appliances always blow the circuit (eg downstairs ring main) fuse in
the event of an appliance fault?

yes

I wonder whether RCDs and MCBs will ever
become so cheap that they are fitted to each appliance plug so a faulty
appliance disrupts only that appliance rather than taking out the whole
house.

For now fuses are cheap & good enough. In the distant future I expect we'll see little load characterisation computers that will pick up on a whole range of abnormalities.



no. Do 240V and 120V bulbs have identical-sized screw threads,

no

or are they
deliberately incompatible sizes to avoid putting a 120V bulb in a 240V
fitting?

yes - but it doesn't work. You can still put a 120v in the slightly bigger 240v socket. Edison screw standards are as ancient as the name suggests.


I wish someone would outlaw light fittings which expose the bare bulb - the

Personally I'm tired of all the outlawing of perfectly good things. Can't we have some basic freedoms back?


glare from a frosted bulb is bad enough but the glare from the cheapo clear
bulbs, where you can see the filament, is even worse.

so don't buy them.


Agreed. However there is market pressure for 'one global SKU'.

But no satisfactory solution to that minor issue


I suggest that, if ES in table lamps isn't prohibited by code, globalised
supply will mean it'll become the de-facto standard.

it hasn't though. We were buying empire made electrics half a century ago.



We do not. We have one type of plug (shavers and mantel-clocks apart)
which must be used for all plug-in domestic purposes, and we generally
have too few wall-sockets. The 13A plug is too big for all ordinary
purposes except for heaters and domestic appliances.

Yes. We ought to have a 2 pin version of it for moulded plugs only. Then you can fit 2 or 3 where one 3 pin goes now. And full compatibility is retained.

For new-build, we should have another type of ring main, rated for half of
the current, and with plentiful 230V AC wall sockets similar to IEC C13/
C14 (cf. kettle and computer monitor leads). The plugs, when shrouded by
resilient plastic, are strong enough for being trodden on. They would, of
course, be fused.

Similar to? Not yet another standard! Just use IEC C13s. They need fusing at 10A. An easy way to achieve this is simply to make sockets with BS1362s and IEC C13s on. Or far better use 2 pin 13A plugs.


We should also have a smaller and even more plentiful type of socket,
different from any in current use for any different purpose, supplying say
12V 1A (AC xor DC), for small electronic equipment.

That should be done by way of a pan-European Standard.

But it will not happen in our time.

Actually it is. USB is now shifting from 5v only to 5-24v at at least 2A.



Do 240V and 120V bulbs have identical-sized screw threads, or are
snip

No idea, but I would guess from the name ("Edison") that they are identical.

E26 in US, E27 here


NT

"Martin Bonner" wrote in message
...
Are US and European plugs capable of having a fuse fitted in them
No

or do
their appliances always blow the circuit (eg downstairs ring main)
What ring main? Everything is wired as (chained) radials. But yes,
the only fuse is in the consumer unit.

Are ring mains mainly a UK innovation, then? I hadn't realised that.

Either way, if an appliance develops a fault, it is normal that everything
fed by the same fuse or circuit breaker will fail, rather than (hopefully)
only that appliance failing and everything else staying on. Now THAT is a
colossal retrograde step: the thought that a short in a table lamp or a PC
power supply could disable my deep freeze when I was out and unable to
replace the fuse doesn't bear thinking about. I'm surprised that when we in
the UK went from unfused to fused plugs, other countries didn't see that
advantage and make the same change.

One of the few places where old unfused round-pin plugs are still used today
is in theatre/TV lighting where it's much easier to change a fuse on the
lighting board rather than one up above the stage where each light is
plugged into its circuit.



Do 240V and 120V bulbs have identical-sized screw threads, or are
they deliberately incompatible sizes to avoid putting a 120V bulb in a
240V fitting?
No idea, but I would guess from the name ("Edison") that they are
identical.

I think there are various different diameters of ES (maybe all with the same
pitch of thread) but I wonder if this is enforced so that bulbs that are
rated for different voltages can never be interchanged in the same light
fitting (ie to prevent you accidentally using a US bulb in European mains).
The real problem arises if you bring a US table lamp back to Europe and
simply change its mains plug - now you wouldn't be protected by the
diameter/voltage restirctions!

In article ,
wrote:
People wrote:

[Snip]

We do not. We have one type of plug (shavers and mantel-clocks apart)
which must be used for all plug-in domestic purposes, and we generally
have too few wall-sockets. The 13A plug is too big for all ordinary
purposes except for heaters and domestic appliances.

Yes. We ought to have a 2 pin version of it for moulded plugs only. Then
you can fit 2 or 3 where one 3 pin goes now. And full compatibility is
retained.

Since most of our sockets are shuttered, requiring an earth pin to open the
shutter, how is this going to work?

[Snip]

We should also have a smaller and even more plentiful type of socket,
different from any in current use for any different purpose, supplying
say 12V 1A (AC xor DC), for small electronic equipment.

That should be done by way of a pan-European Standard.

But it will not happen in our time.

Actually it is. USB is now shifting from 5v only to 5-24v at at least 2A.

Oh dear, another botched standard. Put your 5v phone charging lead into
24v socket and bang goes the phone

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article , NY
wrote:
"Martin Bonner" wrote in message
...
Are US and European plugs capable of having a fuse fitted in them
No

or do their appliances always blow the circuit (eg downstairs ring
main)
What ring main? Everything is wired as (chained) radials. But yes,
the only fuse is in the consumer unit.

Are ring mains mainly a UK innovation, then? I hadn't realised that.

Either way, if an appliance develops a fault, it is normal that
everything fed by the same fuse or circuit breaker will fail, rather
than (hopefully) only that appliance failing and everything else staying
on. Now THAT is a colossal retrograde step: the thought that a short in
a table lamp or a PC power supply could disable my deep freeze when I
was out and unable to replace the fuse doesn't bear thinking about. I'm
surprised that when we in the UK went from unfused to fused plugs, other
countries didn't see that advantage and make the same change.

One of the few places where old unfused round-pin plugs are still used
today is in theatre/TV lighting where it's much easier to change a fuse
on the lighting board rather than one up above the stage where each
light is plugged into its circuit.



Do 240V and 120V bulbs have identical-sized screw threads, or are they
deliberately incompatible sizes to avoid putting a 120V bulb in a 240V
fitting?
No idea, but I would guess from the name ("Edison") that they are
identical.

I think there are various different diameters of ES (maybe all with the
same pitch of thread) but I wonder if this is enforced so that bulbs
that are rated for different voltages can never be interchanged in the
same light fitting (ie to prevent you accidentally using a US bulb in
European mains). The real problem arises if you bring a US table lamp
back to Europe and simply change its mains plug - now you wouldn't be
protected by the diameter/voltage restirctions!

We had 12v ES emergency lights in our theatre. They used quite standard ES
theads. Confused some people sometimes.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 2:37:00 PM UTC, wrote:
People wrote:

all the BC versions were sold out so I got some ES versions. Then I
realised the adapters I got off ebay are all the other way round.

You can get adaptors, but they're not really legal or altogether safe. It's 50/50 whether the outer screw thread is live or not, and I wouldn't want to put 100w in one.


I've ordered some now. But yes that is a very good point. I think when I use them I will take steps to ensure they are connected the safer way round. Its certainly easier to touch that outer thread than the bayonet pins.

I have both types of light fittings (largely due to Ikea) and both types of bulbs (due to whatever affordable/decent LEDs or CFLs were available), so interoperability is helpful.

Simon.
Simon.

NY wrote:
"Martin Bonner" wrote in message
...
Are US and European plugs capable of having a fuse fitted in them
No

or do
their appliances always blow the circuit (eg downstairs ring main)
What ring main? Everything is wired as (chained) radials. But yes,
the only fuse is in the consumer unit.

Are ring mains mainly a UK innovation, then? I hadn't realised that.

Yes, I believe it was basically a copper saving idea in the post 2nd
war years.

Personally I think the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, I always
install 20 amp MCB radial circuits in preference to ring circuits.

--
Chris Green
·

In article ,
wrote:
NY wrote:
"Martin Bonner" wrote in message
...
Are US and European plugs capable of having a fuse fitted in them
No

or do
their appliances always blow the circuit (eg downstairs ring main)
What ring main? Everything is wired as (chained) radials. But yes,
the only fuse is in the consumer unit.

Are ring mains mainly a UK innovation, then? I hadn't realised that.

Yes, I believe it was basically a copper saving idea in the post 2nd
war years.

Personally I think the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, I always
install 20 amp MCB radial circuits in preference to ring circuits.

Some years ago a friend bought house which was wired that way. The
distribution board was big enough for a small factory.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

charles wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
NY wrote:
"Martin Bonner" wrote in message
...
Are US and European plugs capable of having a fuse fitted in them
No

or do
their appliances always blow the circuit (eg downstairs ring main)
What ring main? Everything is wired as (chained) radials. But yes,
the only fuse is in the consumer unit.

Are ring mains mainly a UK innovation, then? I hadn't realised that.

Yes, I believe it was basically a copper saving idea in the post 2nd
war years.

Personally I think the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, I always
install 20 amp MCB radial circuits in preference to ring circuits.

Some years ago a friend bought house which was wired that way. The
distribution board was big enough for a small factory.

You don't need many more MCBs, it's not like the continental system
where there is one MCB per circuit. The IEE 'rules' suggest a maximum
floor area per MCB with no specific limit to the number of sockets per
MCB. Basically you'd need two 20 amp MCB circuits to provide sockets
to the same sort of area that would be served by one 32 amp ring
circuit. The major advantage is that you never have to puzzle out
whether any particular socket is a spur off a ring or not and you
can't suffer from a 'broken ring' fault.

--
Chris Green
·

On 13/01/16 16:02, wrote:
NY wrote:
"Martin Bonner" wrote in message
...
Are US and European plugs capable of having a fuse fitted in them
No

or do
their appliances always blow the circuit (eg downstairs ring main)
What ring main? Everything is wired as (chained) radials. But yes,
the only fuse is in the consumer unit.

Are ring mains mainly a UK innovation, then? I hadn't realised that.

Yes, I believe it was basically a copper saving idea in the post 2nd
war years.

Personally I think the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, I always
install 20 amp MCB radial circuits in preference to ring circuits.


I claim the opposite view - particularly in kitchens, having it not
matter too much how you plug those 3-4 high power appliances in makes
having a 32A circuit quite sensible.

In message , charles
writes
In article ,
wrote:
People wrote:

[Snip]

We do not. We have one type of plug (shavers and mantel-clocks apart)
which must be used for all plug-in domestic purposes, and we generally
have too few wall-sockets. The 13A plug is too big for all ordinary
purposes except for heaters and domestic appliances.

Yes. We ought to have a 2 pin version of it for moulded plugs only. Then
you can fit 2 or 3 where one 3 pin goes now. And full compatibility is
retained.

Since most of our sockets are shuttered, requiring an earth pin to open the
shutter, how is this going to work?

[Snip]

We should also have a smaller and even more plentiful type of socket,
different from any in current use for any different purpose, supplying
say 12V 1A (AC xor DC), for small electronic equipment.

That should be done by way of a pan-European Standard.

But it will not happen in our time.

Actually it is. USB is now shifting from 5v only to 5-24v at at least 2A.

Oh dear, another botched standard. Put your 5v phone charging lead into
24v socket and bang goes the phone


It's negotiated between the host and the device.

AIUI, the device can request higher voltage or current, presumably it
defaults to 5V.

--
Chris French

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:
People wrote:

[Snip]

We do not. We have one type of plug (shavers and mantel-clocks apart)
which must be used for all plug-in domestic purposes, and we generally
have too few wall-sockets. The 13A plug is too big for all ordinary
purposes except for heaters and domestic appliances.

Yes. We ought to have a 2 pin version of it for moulded plugs only. Then
you can fit 2 or 3 where one 3 pin goes now. And full compatibility is
retained.

Since most of our sockets are shuttered, requiring an earth pin to open
the
shutter, how is this going to work?

[Snip]

We should also have a smaller and even more plentiful type of socket,
different from any in current use for any different purpose, supplying
say 12V 1A (AC xor DC), for small electronic equipment.

That should be done by way of a pan-European Standard.

But it will not happen in our time.

Actually it is. USB is now shifting from 5v only to 5-24v at at least 2A.

Oh dear, another botched standard. Put your 5v phone charging lead into
24v socket and bang goes the phone

It only supplys 24v when the device says it can handle that. It initially
supplies only 5v and that is the voltage the negotiation is done at.

"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...
"Martin Bonner" wrote in message
...
Are US and European plugs capable of having a fuse fitted in them
No

or do
their appliances always blow the circuit (eg downstairs ring main)
What ring main? Everything is wired as (chained) radials. But yes,
the only fuse is in the consumer unit.

Are ring mains mainly a UK innovation, then? I hadn't realised that.

Either way, if an appliance develops a fault, it is normal that everything
fed by the same fuse or circuit breaker will fail, rather than (hopefully)
only that appliance failing and everything else staying on. Now THAT is a
colossal retrograde step: the thought that a short in a table lamp or a PC
power supply could disable my deep freeze when I was out and unable to
replace the fuse doesn't bear thinking about.

In reality without a ring main there are multiple circuits so its unlikely
that your deep freeze is going to be on the same circuit as a table lamp
or PC power supply. Yes, it could be one of the other devices in the
kitchen like the toaster etc but deep freezers do fine for hours without
power because they are well insulated and you will notice that there
is no power in the kitchen pretty quickly if say a toaster takes out the
breaker.

I'm surprised that when we in the UK went from unfused to fused plugs,
other countries didn't see that advantage and make the same change.

Yes, no one else did it that way and it turns out to be a much better
way to do without those now that fully moulded cables are now
almost universal and vastly more reliable than wired on plugs.

Clearly unfused plugs work fine in the rest of the world.

One of the few places where old unfused round-pin plugs are still used
today is in theatre/TV lighting where it's much easier to change a fuse on
the lighting board rather than one up above the stage where each light is
plugged into its circuit.

Do 240V and 120V bulbs have identical-sized screw threads, or are
they deliberately incompatible sizes to avoid putting a 120V bulb in a
240V fitting?

No idea, but I would guess from the name ("Edison") that they are
identical.

I think there are various different diameters of ES (maybe all with the
same pitch of thread) but I wonder if this is enforced so that bulbs that
are rated for different voltages can never be interchanged in the same
light fitting (ie to prevent you accidentally using a US bulb in European
mains). The real problem arises if you bring a US table lamp back to
Europe and simply change its mains plug - now you wouldn't be protected by
the diameter/voltage restirctions!

But with the move to electronic bulbs, CFLs and LEDs etc, we will presumably
see a move to 100-250v bulbs just like we have with mobile phone chargers
and laptop chargers etc.

In article ,
wrote:
Going back to that type of plug in the UK would be a retrograde step -
and how. We are fairly unique in having only the one plug which covers
pretty well all domestic requirements.

We do not. We have one type of plug (shavers and mantel-clocks apart)
which must be used for all plug-in domestic purposes, and we generally
have too few wall-sockets. The 13A plug is too big for all ordinary
purposes except for heaters and domestic appliances.

The size of the plug isn't generally important within reason.

For new-build, we should have another type of ring main, rated for half
of the current, and with plentiful 230V AC wall sockets similar to IEC
C13/C14 (cf. kettle and computer monitor leads). The plugs, when
shrouded by resilient plastic, are strong enough for being trodden on.
They would, of course, be fused.

Right. So double the chance of having sockets where you don't need/want
them. And equally not where you do.

We should also have a smaller and even more plentiful type of socket,
different from any in current use for any different purpose, supplying
say 12V 1A (AC xor DC), for small electronic equipment.

Given a 12v 1 amp supply fits in a wall wart which plugs into the ring, I
can't see any advantage in this at all. But lots of disadvantages.

That should be done by way of a pan-European Standard.

If there is you can just about guarantee it will be worse than our current
one.

But it will not happen in our time. |

--
*Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter since nobody listens*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
wrote:
The major advantage is that you never have to puzzle out
whether any particular socket is a spur off a ring or not

Why would you 'puzzle' about that?

and you
can't suffer from a 'broken ring' fault.

A radial circuit never breaks?

--
*The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on my list.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

En el artículo , NY
escribió:

Are ring mains mainly a UK innovation, then? I hadn't realised that.

Yes. Our foreign friends think we're mad. They have a very hard time
understanding how they work.

I had to smile when I was overseeing Spanish electricians working on an
installation overseas which was being cable part to Euro standards, part
to UK standards (don't ask). The 3-phase stuff was in the old UK
colours of blue, red, yellow with a black neutral. Of course, this
confused the UK phase blue with the Euro neutral...

The Spanish sparkies had colour-coded signs everywhere headed "¡cables
locos ingleses!" with the translation:

(fase)
rojo = red
azul = blue
amarillo = yellow

(neutro)
negro = black

but we still needed to triple-check everything they'd done before
switching on. Happy days.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
(")_(")

En el artículo , Tim
Streater escribió:

Going back to that type of plug in the UK would be a retrograde step -
and how. We are fairly unique in having only the one plug which covers
pretty well all domestic requirements. We used to have multiple standards
of plugs. Thank gawd those days have gone.

+1

+2

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
(")_(")

In article , Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
The major advantage is that you never have to puzzle out
whether any particular socket is a spur off a ring or not

Why would you 'puzzle' about that?

and you
can't suffer from a 'broken ring' fault.

A radial circuit never breaks?

If a radial circuit breaks, it's obvious. If a ring breaks, it becomes
two radials which can appear to work fine, but no longer share load:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_c..._whe n_in_use

En el artículo , Rod Speed
escribió:

Yes, no one else did it that way and it turns out to be a much better
way to do without those now that fully moulded cables are now
almost universal and vastly more reliable than wired on plugs.

The fuse is there to protect the appliance cable, dickhead. Add
electrics to the very long list of things you know sweet ****-all about.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
(")_(")

En el artículo ,
escribió:

The 13A plug is too big for all ordinary purposes except for
heaters and domestic appliances.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/ThinPlug-Fol.../dp/B00851VBX6

Welcome to the 20th century.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
(")_(")

On Wednesday, 13 January 2016 14:52:50 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
People wrote:

[Snip]

We do not. We have one type of plug (shavers and mantel-clocks apart)
which must be used for all plug-in domestic purposes, and we generally
have too few wall-sockets. The 13A plug is too big for all ordinary
purposes except for heaters and domestic appliances.

Yes. We ought to have a 2 pin version of it for moulded plugs only. Then
you can fit 2 or 3 where one 3 pin goes now. And full compatibility is
retained.

Since most of our sockets are shuttered, requiring an earth pin to open the
shutter, how is this going to work?

Have you never seen the 2 pin shutters? They aren't earth pin operated.


We should also have a smaller and even more plentiful type of socket,
different from any in current use for any different purpose, supplying
say 12V 1A (AC xor DC), for small electronic equipment.

That should be done by way of a pan-European Standard.

But it will not happen in our time.

Actually it is. USB is now shifting from 5v only to 5-24v at at least 2A.

Oh dear, another botched standard. Put your 5v phone charging lead into
24v socket and bang goes the phone

No, USB delivers 5v until greater voltage has been negotiated.
It works, but means a mass of power control chips are needed. Maybe it really is cheaper than adding an extra contact in the lead.


NT

On Wednesday, 13 January 2016 16:45:01 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On 13/01/16 16:02, wrote:
NY wrote:
"Martin Bonner" wrote in message
...

Are ring mains mainly a UK innovation, then? I hadn't realised that.

Yes, I believe it was basically a copper saving idea in the post 2nd
war years.

Personally I think the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, I always
install 20 amp MCB radial circuits in preference to ring circuits.


I claim the opposite view - particularly in kitchens, having it not
matter too much how you plug those 3-4 high power appliances in makes
having a 32A circuit quite sensible.

Ring circuits are almost all upsides compared to radials. There's not much contest.


NT

On Wednesday, 13 January 2016 16:48:06 UTC, wrote:
charles wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
NY wrote:
"Martin Bonner" wrote in message
...
Are US and European plugs capable of having a fuse fitted in them
No

or do
their appliances always blow the circuit (eg downstairs ring main)
What ring main? Everything is wired as (chained) radials. But yes,
the only fuse is in the consumer unit.

Are ring mains mainly a UK innovation, then? I hadn't realised that.

Yes, I believe it was basically a copper saving idea in the post 2nd
war years.

Personally I think the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, I always
install 20 amp MCB radial circuits in preference to ring circuits.

Some years ago a friend bought house which was wired that way. The
distribution board was big enough for a small factory.

You don't need many more MCBs, it's not like the continental system
where there is one MCB per circuit. The IEE 'rules' suggest a maximum
floor area per MCB with no specific limit to the number of sockets per
MCB. Basically you'd need two 20 amp MCB circuits to provide sockets
to the same sort of area that would be served by one 32 amp ring
circuit. The major advantage is that you never have to puzzle out
whether any particular socket is a spur off a ring or not and you
can't suffer from a 'broken ring' fault.

No, instead of an almost trivial broken ring you get a fire or dead or unearthed sockets.


NT

On Wednesday, 13 January 2016 19:23:11 UTC, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo ,
escribió:

The 13A plug is too big for all ordinary purposes except for
heaters and domestic appliances.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/ThinPlug-Fol.../dp/B00851VBX6

Welcome to the 20th century.

At £8 a plug the 20th century can wait. Once it's out of patent maybe.


NT

On 13/01/16 11:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
sm_jamieson wrote:
In the light of the thread about the LAP 60W equiv LED bulbs at
Screwfix, all the BC versions were sold out so I got some ES versions.
Then I realised the adapters I got off ebay are all the other way round.
But it got me thinking - should I change my pendants to ES fittings ?
The adapters are smaller that way round, since the BC connector nestles
inside the ES screw. The big question. Are ES bulbs becoming more common
than BC ? Any reason not to change my fittings ?

Good luck in finding pendant ES bulb holders. You'd think it would be
simple.

I asked the same thing in the newsgroup 18 months ago. Doesn't look like
much has changed.

--

Jeff