Dave Plowman (News) wrote on 08/03/2015 :
Decent ones have a scale which mimics a needle too.

Yes, and I have three such, but they don't come close to an old
fashioned pointer on a scale for usability.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Harry
Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) used his keyboard to write :
In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 1:49:21 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Harry
Bloomfield wrote:
Last time I used it, I had a rather weird varying discharge on
the car. The AVO 8 made it easy to track down, whereas the Fluke
digital was entirely useless.

Care to be more specific?

DMMs are generally useless on unsteady readings


Decent one will have a low/high/average hold.

Not quite the same as a needle pointer moving about.

Decent ones have a scale which mimics a needle too.

I've even seen a computer simulation of an analogue meter which resulted in
a bent needle if you overloaded it.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

Caecilius presented the following explanation :
When buying a meter, I look for built in user error protection, auto
power down and a continuity buzzer which works instantly the probes
make contact - many do not work instantly.

I have one cheapy meter which fits the above bill, which has survived
for years - nice big digits, if you put it on the continuity or
resistance range then connect it to the mains, it would just shut the
display down, then recover without releasing the smoke.

I wouldn't have the cojones to test that. You're a braver man than me.

I didn't deliberately test it, it was accidently tested or rather
several times over the years. I don't even have the instructions for it
to see if its part of the spec. to survive that, I've had it so long.

You have it on a resistance range, apply it accidently across a
voltage, the display flashes, blanks as if it is thinking about it,
disconnect then it magically comes back. The display is blank long
enough to worry you that you have destroyed it, but it always has
recovered so far.

No great loss if it were to go pop, I have certainly had my money out
of it.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

ARW wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 07/03/2015 17:35, ARW wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 7 March 2015 16:01:32 UTC, ss wrote:
Anything in particular I should look out for or have on the multi
meter?

GS38 compliant test prods.

Something like this is often more useful

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TMDL6780.html

than a multimeter.

That is indeed the correct answer.

+1

for the OPs described use I would agree.




And the GS38 guidance that Owain mentioned is available on line

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pUbns/priced/gs38.pdf



Do you still use the good old twin (in series)test lamps that every
apprentice used to make as one of his first jobs back in my day?

On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 3:56:10 PM UTC, Mike Clarke wrote:
On 08/03/2015 11:56, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Remember when you bought an electric drill and used attachments to turn it
into a circular saw, etc?

Better than nothing - just.

But in those days electric motors were relatively much more expensive
than they are now and accounted for most of the cost of the tool so
adding attachments to an existing drill was an attractive option.

It was only attractive to those that hadn't used them before The results were truly pathetic.


NT

On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 3:45:00 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 1:49:21 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Last time I used it, I had a rather weird
varying discharge on the car. The AVO 8 made it easy to track down,
whereas the Fluke digital was entirely useless.

Care to be more specific?

DMMs are generally useless on unsteady readings


Decent one will have a low/high/average hold.

but most dont. And it still doesnt give as much info as a waggling pointer.


NT

On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 3:45:00 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 12:06:45 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Never in a million years. I own a couple of AVO 8's, which was the
peak of an analogue multimeter design. When last on sale a few
years ago the price tag was around £700.

They were never the peak of analogue design. They may have been the
peak of non electronic meters, though.

Even that I doubt. There were lower current meters around, smaller,
lighter, rubber protected, with better range selection and far lower
prices.


They were the de facto standard you'd see on just about every half decent
workbench, though.

Maybe once, but much better and cheaper were also common


NT

In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 3:45:00 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 1:49:21 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Last time I used it, I had a rather weird varying discharge on
the car. The AVO 8 made it easy to track down, whereas the
Fluke digital was entirely useless.

Care to be more specific?

DMMs are generally useless on unsteady readings


Decent one will have a low/high/average hold.

but most dont. And it still doesnt give as much info as a waggling
pointer.


The OP mentioned Fluke. My Fluke does. And that gives a far more accurate
min/max than trying to read a waggling needle.

--
*Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 3:45:00 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 12:06:45 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Never in a million years. I own a couple of AVO 8's, which was the
peak of an analogue multimeter design. When last on sale a few
years ago the price tag was around £700.

They were never the peak of analogue design. They may have been the
peak of non electronic meters, though.

Even that I doubt. There were lower current meters around, smaller,
lighter, rubber protected, with better range selection and far lower
prices.


They were the de facto standard you'd see on just about every half
decent workbench, though.

Maybe once, but much better and cheaper were also common


Such as? I doubt places like the BBC had them by the thousand if there was
a better alternative.

I do have one - and it's in very good nick still. Had to re-do the
stitching on the leather case, though. But even when it was current, had
to supplement it with a valve voltmeter.

Now it is merely a nice looking curiosity - like so much older test gear.

--
*WHOSE CRUEL IDEA WAS IT FOR THE WORD 'LISP' TO HAVE 'S' IN IT?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

on 09/03/2015, Dave Plowman (News) supposed :
The OP mentioned Fluke. My Fluke does. And that gives a far more accurate
min/max than trying to read a waggling needle.

For leaving across the mains and logging its worst excurions in voltage
they are perfect, for everything else a proper analogue meter works
best.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

laid this down on his screen :

They were the de facto standard you'd see on just about every half decent
workbench, though.

Maybe once, but much better and cheaper were also common

Cheaper yes, better no absolutely not. As said above, they were the
standard - nothing came close. The nearest I came across was the
Selectatest. When you mentioned a multi-meter, everyone called them an
AVO, just like everyone calls a vacuum cleaner and Hoover.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 11:11:46 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
I doubt places like the BBC had them by the thousand if there was
a better alternative.

Maybe because they were a local supplier, spares availability was excellent and
had already been in use by the beeb for decades?

I've a Fluke handheld DMM (8060A) entering it's fourth decade and I'd choose it
over an AVO 8 any day although it desperately needs some new capacitors. I
like the model so much I've bought a few more secondhand over the years.

If I really need an analogue reading then I've an AVO EA113 or a more recent
Fluke 87 V with a bargraph. I'd not put any but the 87 V anywhere near the
mains

I'm surprised AVO 8's were still in production after the turn of the century,
wonder who was actually buying them? I could have bagged a couple of
excellent condition 1970's Model 8's for free 20+ years ago, maybe in hindsight
I should have, but I've would have never used them although they might have
fetched a good price on ebay
--

On Sat, 07 Mar 2015 16:01:18 +0000, ss wrote:

I think its about time I stopped using one of those screwdrivers that
light up to show a live wire and get myself a multimeter. I do very
little when it comes to electrical work unless pretty basic stuff will
probably be used to check for live wires and not much else. So, I just
want a cheap one that will do basics.
Anything in particular I should look out for or have on the multi meter?

Fluke 101 35.99 delivered on Ebay (UK stock)

A manufacturer who actually designs the internals to genuinely meet safety
standards rather than just silk screening some random ****e on the case.

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/iden/digi....htm?PID=77003

If anyone is happy with testing anything on the mains either with a no name
chinglish brand or an analogue meter then they really want their heads
examining. There is some ****e out there that shouldn't be let loose on
anything but a single PP3
--

On Monday, 9 March 2015 12:48:17 UTC, The Other Mike wrote:
On Sat, 07 Mar 2015 16:01:18 +0000, ss wrote:

I think its about time I stopped using one of those screwdrivers that
light up to show a live wire and get myself a multimeter. I do very
little when it comes to electrical work unless pretty basic stuff will
probably be used to check for live wires and not much else. So, I just
want a cheap one that will do basics.
Anything in particular I should look out for or have on the multi meter?

Fluke 101 35.99 delivered on Ebay (UK stock)

But that's still a lot more than a simple meter.


A manufacturer who actually designs the internals to genuinely meet safety
standards rather than just silk screening some random ****e on the case.

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/iden/digi....htm?PID=77003

If anyone is happy with testing anything on the mains either with a no name
chinglish brand or an analogue meter then they really want their heads
examining.

depeneds what you mean by no name, and remmeber a name can me little if yuo're ordering from ebay and teh stuff comes from china.

There is some ****e out there that shouldn't be let loose on
anything but a single PP3

you leave my students out of this. ;-)

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
on 09/03/2015, Dave Plowman (News) supposed :
The OP mentioned Fluke. My Fluke does. And that gives a far more
accurate min/max than trying to read a waggling needle.

For leaving across the mains and logging its worst excurions in voltage
they are perfect, for everything else a proper analogue meter works
best.

A 'proper analogue meter' has far too high an input impedance to be of
much use these days.

And as I said, I don't use a DVM for mains. Nor would it be any good for
the job you mention as it auto powers down. You need the correct device
for that task.

--
*England has no kidney bank, but it does have a Liverpool.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Other Mike wrote:
I'm surprised AVO 8's were still in production after the turn of the
century, wonder who was actually buying them?

Probably to go straight into a display or museum, etc.

I could have bagged a couple of excellent condition 1970's Model 8's
for free 20+ years ago, maybe in hindsight I should have, but I've would
have never used them although they might have fetched a good price on
ebay

They can be somewhat of a bargain used from Ebay. Unless you get in a
bidding war. Loads come up - so just put your maximum bid in until you
succeed.

--
*Before they invented drawing boards, what did they go back to?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A 'proper analogue meter' has far too high an input impedance to be of
much use these days.

????

Are you saying the lower the impedance the better?


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

In article ,
george wrote:
A 'proper analogue meter' has far too high an input impedance to be of
much use these days.

????

Are you saying the lower the impedance the better?

No. ;-) I just got it apex over posterior. Sorry.

--
*Just remember...if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 08/03/2015 18:37, ss wrote:
On 08/03/2015 16:21, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I have one cheapy meter which fits the above bill, which has survived
for years - nice big digits, if you put it on the continuity or
resistance range then connect it to the mains, it would just shut the
display down, then recover without releasing the smoke.

Ok you have given me lots of options but with hindsight I am not sure I
should bother with the multimeter for now as I am still struggling to
work out what I would use it for based on the following.

Based on what you have, then for your primary purpose, one of the
testers linked previously would seem ideal. I expect the only other
thing you would likely use a MM for is continuity or resistance checks
to perhaps test fuses, and lamps etc.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 07:18:12 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 9 March 2015 12:48:17 UTC, The Other Mike wrote:
On Sat, 07 Mar 2015 16:01:18 +0000, ss wrote:

I think its about time I stopped using one of those screwdrivers that
light up to show a live wire and get myself a multimeter. I do very
little when it comes to electrical work unless pretty basic stuff will
probably be used to check for live wires and not much else. So, I just
want a cheap one that will do basics.
Anything in particular I should look out for or have on the multi meter?

Fluke 101 35.99 delivered on Ebay (UK stock)

But that's still a lot more than a simple meter.

That's meter where the bill of material cost is maybe ten quid where at least a
quid has been spent on protection, other safety measures and genuine
certification. A meter that is delivered from china for five quid leaves the
factory for about 50p and no protection and no certification.

It all depends on how cheap you are. There are no second chances.

A manufacturer who actually designs the internals to genuinely meet safety
standards rather than just silk screening some random ****e on the case.

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/iden/digi....htm?PID=77003

If anyone is happy with testing anything on the mains either with a no name
chinglish brand or an analogue meter then they really want their heads
examining.

depeneds what you mean by no name, and remmeber a name can me little if yuo're ordering from ebay and teh stuff comes from china.

Many manufacturers, both long established western names with a reputation to
maintain and new far eastern ones manufacture in China to a very high quality
level, but there is an entry level, you can buy genuine quality from China and
price is not always everything but WTF would you choose ****e when under 36 quid
buys a meter with genuine quality from a manufacturer where reputation,
established over the past 60 years is everything.

It's like buying a jigsaw, you either buy ****e or you buy a Bosch blue/Festool,
the ****e will always be ****e. Whilst a cheap jigsaw is unlikely to kill you, a
cheap multimeter can. I've a couple of 4.5 inch angle grinders in the shed, a
thirty quid Bosch has significantly less vibration than a fifteen quid Lidl one,
the Bosch one I could use on and off all day, the Lidl one I might drop on my
leg or foot after 10 minutes through fatigue.

We're not talking a Fluke 87 V at 400 quid plus VAT from RS, just a cheap meter
that will be safe. IMHO the sooner the no name lets make up the certification
brands are banned the better.

There is some ****e out there that shouldn't be let loose on
anything but a single PP3

you leave my students out of this. ;-)

I blame the games culture, press a restart button and all wil be reset to how it
was 5 minutes ago.

http://ecmweb.com/arc-flash/case-deadly-arc-flash

--

On 09/03/2015 18:16, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 07:18:12 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 9 March 2015 12:48:17 UTC, The Other Mike wrote:
On Sat, 07 Mar 2015 16:01:18 +0000, ss wrote:

I think its about time I stopped using one of those screwdrivers that
light up to show a live wire and get myself a multimeter. I do very
little when it comes to electrical work unless pretty basic stuff will
probably be used to check for live wires and not much else. So, I just
want a cheap one that will do basics.
Anything in particular I should look out for or have on the multi meter?

Fluke 101 35.99 delivered on Ebay (UK stock)

But that's still a lot more than a simple meter.

That's meter where the bill of material cost is maybe ten quid where at least a
quid has been spent on protection, other safety measures and genuine
certification. A meter that is delivered from china for five quid leaves the
factory for about 50p and no protection and no certification.

It all depends on how cheap you are. There are no second chances.

A manufacturer who actually designs the internals to genuinely meet safety
standards rather than just silk screening some random ****e on the case.

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/iden/digi....htm?PID=77003

If anyone is happy with testing anything on the mains either with a no name
chinglish brand or an analogue meter then they really want their heads
examining.

depeneds what you mean by no name, and remmeber a name can me little if yuo're ordering from ebay and teh stuff comes from china.

Many manufacturers, both long established western names with a reputation to
maintain and new far eastern ones manufacture in China to a very high quality
level, but there is an entry level, you can buy genuine quality from China and
price is not always everything but WTF would you choose ****e when under 36 quid
buys a meter with genuine quality from a manufacturer where reputation,
established over the past 60 years is everything.

It's like buying a jigsaw, you either buy ****e or you buy a Bosch blue/Festool,
the ****e will always be ****e. Whilst a cheap jigsaw is unlikely to kill you, a
cheap multimeter can. I've a couple of 4.5 inch angle grinders in the shed, a
thirty quid Bosch has significantly less vibration than a fifteen quid Lidl one,
the Bosch one I could use on and off all day, the Lidl one I might drop on my
leg or foot after 10 minutes through fatigue.

We're not talking a Fluke 87 V at 400 quid plus VAT from RS, just a cheap meter
that will be safe. IMHO the sooner the no name lets make up the certification
brands are banned the better.

There is some ****e out there that shouldn't be let loose on
anything but a single PP3

you leave my students out of this. ;-)

I blame the games culture, press a restart button and all wil be reset to how it
was 5 minutes ago.

http://ecmweb.com/arc-flash/case-deadly-arc-flash

Yikes. Dave Jones at http://www.eevblog.com/ gets very worked up over
insufficient creepage distances in multimeters, now I understand why.

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
. uk...
on 09/03/2015, Dave Plowman (News) supposed :
The OP mentioned Fluke. My Fluke does. And that gives a far more accurate
min/max than trying to read a waggling needle.

For leaving across the mains and logging its worst excurions in voltage
they are perfect, for everything else a proper analogue meter works best.

Its just as useful for logging the worst excursions
with a power supply or anything else that varys.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 08/03/2015 18:37, ss wrote:
On 08/03/2015 16:21, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I have one cheapy meter which fits the above bill, which has survived
for years - nice big digits, if you put it on the continuity or
resistance range then connect it to the mains, it would just shut the
display down, then recover without releasing the smoke.

Ok you have given me lots of options but with hindsight I am not sure I
should bother with the multimeter for now as I am still struggling to
work out what I would use it for based on the following.

Based on what you have, then for your primary purpose, one of the testers
linked previously would seem ideal. I expect the only other thing you
would likely use a MM for is continuity or resistance checks to perhaps
test fuses, and lamps etc.

I do use mine for a variety of other things like checking the
polarity of plug packs that don't bother to label that, and
to see which ones have died and stuff like that that your
neon screwdriver and volt stick won't be much use for.

And the price, IMO you would be mad not to have one.

On Monday, March 9, 2015 at 11:12:45 AM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 3:45:00 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 1:49:21 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Last time I used it, I had a rather weird varying discharge on
the car. The AVO 8 made it easy to track down, whereas the
Fluke digital was entirely useless.

Care to be more specific?

DMMs are generally useless on unsteady readings


Decent one will have a low/high/average hold.

but most dont. And it still doesnt give as much info as a waggling
pointer.


The OP mentioned Fluke. My Fluke does. And that gives a far more accurate
min/max than trying to read a waggling needle.

With unsteady readings one seldom needs min or max, but rather is looking to see how it responds to whatever's going on. A digital meter has no ability to do that and communicate the reuslts effectively.


NT

On Monday, March 9, 2015 at 11:12:45 AM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 3:45:00 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 12:06:45 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Never in a million years. I own a couple of AVO 8's, which was the
peak of an analogue multimeter design. When last on sale a few
years ago the price tag was around £700.

They were never the peak of analogue design. They may have been the
peak of non electronic meters, though.

Even that I doubt. There were lower current meters around, smaller,
lighter, rubber protected, with better range selection and far lower
prices.


They were the de facto standard you'd see on just about every half
decent workbench, though.

Maybe once, but much better and cheaper were also common


Such as?

There were no shortage of other good meters around, at a fraction of the price.

I doubt places like the BBC had them by the thousand if there was
a better alternative.

illogical

I daresay they were the best in the 1930s, but the world moved on.


NT

On Monday, March 9, 2015 at 12:09:56 PM UTC, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
laid this down on his screen :

They were the de facto standard you'd see on just about every half decent
workbench, though.

Maybe once, but much better and cheaper were also common

Cheaper yes, better no absolutely not. As said above, they were the
standard - nothing came close.

Well, you might like to list their good qualities.

The nearest I came across was the
Selectatest. When you mentioned a multi-meter, everyone called them an
AVO, just like everyone calls a vacuum cleaner and Hoover.

no they didnt


NT

On Monday, March 9, 2015 at 7:42:01 PM UTC, john james wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 08/03/2015 18:37, ss wrote:
On 08/03/2015 16:21, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I have one cheapy meter which fits the above bill, which has survived
for years - nice big digits, if you put it on the continuity or
resistance range then connect it to the mains, it would just shut the
display down, then recover without releasing the smoke.

Ok you have given me lots of options but with hindsight I am not sure I
should bother with the multimeter for now as I am still struggling to
work out what I would use it for based on the following.

Based on what you have, then for your primary purpose, one of the testers
linked previously would seem ideal. I expect the only other thing you
would likely use a MM for is continuity or resistance checks to perhaps
test fuses, and lamps etc.

I do use mine for a variety of other things like checking the
polarity of plug packs that don't bother to label that, and
to see which ones have died and stuff like that that your
neon screwdriver and volt stick won't be much use for.

And the price, IMO you would be mad not to have one.

Even if all you ever do is check batteries, a £2.90 multimeter should pay its cost back. Having one opens up the ability to fault find, a single instance of which should benefit you by far more than 2.90.


NT

wrote in message
...
On Monday, March 9, 2015 at 11:12:45 AM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 3:45:00 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 1:49:21 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Last time I used it, I had a rather weird varying discharge on
the car. The AVO 8 made it easy to track down, whereas the
Fluke digital was entirely useless.

Care to be more specific?

DMMs are generally useless on unsteady readings


Decent one will have a low/high/average hold.

but most dont. And it still doesnt give as much info as a waggling
pointer.


The OP mentioned Fluke. My Fluke does. And that gives a far more accurate
min/max than trying to read a waggling needle.

With unsteady readings one seldom needs min or max, but rather is looking
to see how it responds to whatever's going on. A digital meter has no
ability to do that and communicate the reuslts effectively.

That's not correct when it has a bar display as well.

On Monday, March 9, 2015 at 9:13:48 PM UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Monday, March 9, 2015 at 11:12:45 AM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 3:45:00 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 1:49:21 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Last time I used it, I had a rather weird varying discharge on
the car. The AVO 8 made it easy to track down, whereas the
Fluke digital was entirely useless.

Care to be more specific?

DMMs are generally useless on unsteady readings


Decent one will have a low/high/average hold.

but most dont. And it still doesnt give as much info as a waggling
pointer.


The OP mentioned Fluke. My Fluke does. And that gives a far more accurate
min/max than trying to read a waggling needle.

With unsteady readings one seldom needs min or max, but rather is looking
to see how it responds to whatever's going on. A digital meter has no
ability to do that and communicate the reuslts effectively.

That's not correct when it has a bar display as well.

so its correct 99% of the time


NT

On Monday, 9 March 2015 18:16:42 UTC, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 07:18:12 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 9 March 2015 12:48:17 UTC, The Other Mike wrote:
On Sat, 07 Mar 2015 16:01:18 +0000, ss wrote:

I think its about time I stopped using one of those screwdrivers that
light up to show a live wire and get myself a multimeter. I do very
little when it comes to electrical work unless pretty basic stuff will
probably be used to check for live wires and not much else. So, I just
want a cheap one that will do basics.
Anything in particular I should look out for or have on the multi meter?

Fluke 101 35.99 delivered on Ebay (UK stock)

But that's still a lot more than a simple meter.

That's meter where the bill of material cost is maybe ten quid where at least a
quid has been spent on protection, other safety measures and genuine
certification. A meter that is delivered from china for five quid leaves the
factory for about 50p and no protection and no certification.

It all depends on how cheap you are. There are no second chances.

yep but it does depend on what you'll be using it for too.



A manufacturer who actually designs the internals to genuinely meet safety
standards rather than just silk screening some random ****e on the case.

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/iden/digi....htm?PID=77003

If anyone is happy with testing anything on the mains either with a no name
chinglish brand or an analogue meter then they really want their heads
examining.

depeneds what you mean by no name, and remmeber a name can me little if yuo're ordering from ebay and teh stuff comes from china.

Many manufacturers, both long established western names with a reputation to
maintain and new far eastern ones manufacture in China to a very high quality
level, but there is an entry level, you can buy genuine quality from China and
price is not always everything but WTF would you choose ****e when under 36 quid
buys a meter with genuine quality from a manufacturer where reputation,
established over the past 60 years is everything.

Only if it did what I wanted.
I wouldn't spend a quid on a meter that didn't do what I wanted.
The last time I brought a meter I brought SIXTY of these.
http://www.rapidonline.com/Test-Meas...timeter-519310
came out at around £20 each I think.
I would have liked to buy flukes but the budget wasnt; high enough for that..


Our students aren't allowed to work on open mains or measure it and they mostly stick to below 60V. But I've used one to measure mains voltages without a problem. And I believe that in the hands of soneone that knows what they are doing they would be safe. I wouldn't use one to repair or mneasure the national grid.


It's like buying a jigsaw, you either buy ****e or you buy a Bosch blue/Festool,
the ****e will always be ****e. Whilst a cheap jigsaw is unlikely to kill you, a
cheap multimeter can.

if teh OP has managed to used a simple neon screwdriver to test mains I think they'd be OK with a cheapish meter.


I've a couple of 4.5 inch angle grinders in the shed, a
thirty quid Bosch has significantly less vibration than a fifteen quid Lidl one,
the Bosch one I could use on and off all day, the Lidl one I might drop on my
leg or foot after 10 minutes through fatigue.

So user error.


We're not talking a Fluke 87 V at 400 quid plus VAT from RS, just a cheap meter
that will be safe. IMHO the sooner the no name lets make up the certification
brands are banned the better.

Buying no name for anything can be risky.


There is some ****e out there that shouldn't be let loose on
anything but a single PP3

you leave my students out of this. ;-)

I blame the games culture, press a restart button and all wil be reset to how it
was 5 minutes ago.

http://ecmweb.com/arc-flash/case-deadly-arc-flash

--

On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 18:55:07 +0000, LumpHammer
wrote:

On 09/03/2015 18:16, The Other Mike wrote:

http://ecmweb.com/arc-flash/case-deadly-arc-flash

Yikes. Dave Jones at http://www.eevblog.com/ gets very worked up over
insufficient creepage distances in multimeters, now I understand why.

Also protection and blast shields. **** happens and sometimes on mains it's
entirely out of your control. If a meter fails internally and is trashed then I
for one really couldn't give a toss. What I don't want is for it to burst into
flames and start throwing parts of itself around the room at high velocity.

A video of a cheapy undergoing testing that it should meet without external
disruption according to what is written on the case

http://gossenmetrawatt.com/english/s...ultimeters.htm

Multimeter without fused leads explosion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaIszMlrQNE

EEVblog #66 - Death & Destruction of a Fluke Multimeter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlA7-fh5nDQ

EEVblog #84 - High Energy Multimeter Destruction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-FZP1U2dkM

Yes his accent is irritating, he's Australian
--

On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 12:02:33 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

on 09/03/2015, Dave Plowman (News) supposed :
The OP mentioned Fluke. My Fluke does. And that gives a far more accurate
min/max than trying to read a waggling needle.

For leaving across the mains and logging its worst excurions in voltage
they are perfect, for everything else a proper analogue meter works
best.

Analogue meters still have their uses, tweaking adjustable resistors, capacitors
or inductors for a peak or trough in a low voltage analogue circuit, but for the
rest of the time digital is IMHO way better, more robust, often more accurate,
more stable, certainly easier to read and much lighter. If you buy a quality
brand it also won't explode into bits of glass and metal if things go wrong.
Approaching 100% of analogue meters will not meet *any* CAT ratings because they
are from an era before the standard was created. The AVO 8 in it's very last
incarnation only met 250v CAT III
--

brought next idea :
Well, you might like to list their good qualities.

They were very well built, robust and accurate for their time. They
were the standard in all of the workshops in the UK, as already said
the BBC and special versions were built for military use.


The nearest I came across was the
Selectatest. When you mentioned a multi-meter, everyone called them an
AVO, just like everyone calls a vacuum cleaner and Hoover.

no they didnt

Yes they did and its an habit I only recently got out of.

I was so used to using them, they were like an old pair of boots, but
boy were they clumsy. I bought, or rather built my first digital in
around 1970 - it wasn't that much less clumsy than the AVO.

For old times sake, a few years ago I decided to see if I could track
one down, just for the pleasure of using one again. I bought one AVO8
and was given a second AVO8, to add to my Selectatest. The AVO 8 is a
much better unit than the Selectatest, much more refined.

Digital, even with a bargraph doesn't come close to a moving pointer,
for a varying value, so mine still get used occasionally.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 3:12:14 PM UTC, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 18:55:07 +0000, LumpHammer
wrote:

On 09/03/2015 18:16, The Other Mike wrote:

http://ecmweb.com/arc-flash/case-deadly-arc-flash

Yikes. Dave Jones at http://www.eevblog.com/ gets very worked up over
insufficient creepage distances in multimeters, now I understand why.

Also protection and blast shields. **** happens and sometimes on mains it's
entirely out of your control. If a meter fails internally and is trashed then I
for one really couldn't give a toss. What I don't want is for it to burst into
flames and start throwing parts of itself around the room at high velocity.

A video of a cheapy undergoing testing that it should meet without external
disruption according to what is written on the case

http://gossenmetrawatt.com/english/s...ultimeters.htm

Multimeter without fused leads explosion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaIszMlrQNE

EEVblog #66 - Death & Destruction of a Fluke Multimeter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlA7-fh5nDQ

EEVblog #84 - High Energy Multimeter Destruction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-FZP1U2dkM

Yes his accent is irritating, he's Australian

There is an issue but I think its being exaggerated. Using meters on 5-32A fused/mcb circuits is a very different ballgame to exploding them with 25,000A. Its when you're probing about inside a live CU that you really need that CAT certification. Most diyers are never going to do that.


NT

On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 5:16:13 PM UTC, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
brought next idea :

Well, you might like to list their good qualities.

They were very well built, robust

as are flukes

and accurate for their time. They

Yes. Time has moved on though, by about 80 years.

were the standard in all of the workshops in the UK, as already said

I'm sorry but claims like that are daft.

the BBC and special versions were built for military use.


The nearest I came across was the
Selectatest. When you mentioned a multi-meter, everyone called them an
AVO, just like everyone calls a vacuum cleaner and Hoover.

no they didnt

Yes they did and its an habit I only recently got out of.

as is that

They're like early Ferrographs. Once the best but long since totally eclipsed.


NT

In article ,
wrote:
They're like early Ferrographs. Once the best but long since totally
eclipsed.

Ferrographs were merely top end domestic/semi pro machines. For pro, you'd
be talking about the EMI BTR2, or TR90.

AVO did cheaper meters than the Model 8 too.

--
*If horrific means to make horrible, does terrific mean to make terrible?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 10 Mar 2015 10:21:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

There is an issue but I think its being exaggerated. Using meters on 5-32A fused/mcb circuits is a very different ballgame to exploding them with 25,000A. Its when you're probing about inside a live CU that you really need that CAT certification. Most diyers are never going to do that.

I disagree, a DIY'er could do exactly that.

Cheapo meters are fecking lethal anywhere near mains, ****ty design, glass
fuses, no blast shields, faked certification, crap probes. The non professional
user won't even begin to understand that there could be a problem. The properly
designed led testers and volts sticks are far safer than cheap and patently
uncertifiable 'universal' test meters.

http://ecmweb.com/arc-flash/case-deadly-arc-flash

As for being protected by the installation, move away from the consumer unit and
the wiring will help to some extent. But protective devices on the installation
might not always come to your aid, i've had an MK RCD fail closed at home in the
past couple of years (only discovered at a routine test, it could have been
faulty for a year or more) and come across a handful of MCB's, even low voltage
ones that have failed in various states including closed and incapable of
opening either manually or under fault conditions, all from various reputable
manufacturers.

http://ecmweb.com/arc-flash/case-deadly-arc-flash

--

On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 14:35:36 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
The Other Mike wrote:
I'm surprised AVO 8's were still in production after the turn of the
century, wonder who was actually buying them?

Probably to go straight into a display or museum, etc.

I could have bagged a couple of excellent condition 1970's Model 8's
for free 20+ years ago, maybe in hindsight I should have, but I've would
have never used them although they might have fetched a good price on
ebay

They can be somewhat of a bargain used from Ebay. Unless you get in a
bidding war. Loads come up - so just put your maximum bid in until you
succeed.

Not sure why I'd buy an AVO 8 that I'd never use regardless of if it was a
bargain or not
--

In article ,
The Other Mike wrote:
They can be somewhat of a bargain used from Ebay. Unless you get in a
bidding war. Loads come up - so just put your maximum bid in until you
succeed.

Not sure why I'd buy an AVO 8 that I'd never use regardless of if it was
a bargain or not

Can be useful when fixing old gear where the service sheet gives
measurements made with one. ;-)

--
*Wood burns faster when you have to cut and chop it yourself.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 10:26:29 AM UTC, The Other Mike wrote:
On Tue, 10 Mar 2015 10:21:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

There is an issue but I think its being exaggerated. Using meters on 5-32A fused/mcb circuits is a very different ballgame to exploding them with 25,000A. Its when you're probing about inside a live CU that you really need that CAT certification. Most diyers are never going to do that.

I disagree, a DIY'er could do exactly that.

so we agree that a diyer could do that, but most never do.


Cheapo meters are fecking lethal anywhere near mains,

nonsense


****ty design, glass
fuses, no blast shields, faked certification, crap probes. The non professional
user won't even begin to understand that there could be a problem. The properly
designed led testers and volts sticks are far safer than cheap and patently
uncertifiable 'universal' test meters.

properly designed voltsticks and properly designed multimeters are better than crap designed both. Not news.

http://ecmweb.com/arc-flash/case-deadly-arc-flash

As for being protected by the installation, move away from the consumer unit and
the wiring will help to some extent.

not really. Cable resistance won't reduce i squared t to a safe value, the CU MCB is what reduces the user's risk.

But protective devices on the installation
might not always come to your aid, i've had an MK RCD fail closed at home in the
past couple of years (only discovered at a routine test, it could have been

yes, it happens. A milllion to one multiplied by a thousand to one is... a very small risk indeed. That's why there isnt just one category. When you work north of the CU protective devices then you do need a suitably rated meter, but about 99% of diyers never do that. The ones that do need to know not to use cheapo meters _there_.

In the sad death you repeatedly refer to, a totally unrated untested meter was used in a 3phase 480v breaker panel supplying an entire shopping mall. I think we all agree cheapie meters should not be used in such a place. Downwind of a 5A fuse is a very different matter, something the cat system recognises.


NT