On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 22:55:50 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

A clear night sky is at around -40 C. Thermo dynamics mean that the
different temperatures try to equalise but space is a bit big and
there isn't enough heat in the screen to warm up space. So the screen
just radiates heat into space and cools and cools and cools...

Was trying to see how the windscreen would be below air temp, but I
had neglected the radiation component. Doh.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote:
On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 18:21:58 +0000 (UTC), Adrian wrote:

I think my FIL does the same and he has never had a problem

Thanks for sharing that. It's reassuring to know that I wasn't
the
only one 'taking my chances' with this de-icing technique. :-)

Ditto that. Never had a problem with it.

Likewise here. Even on heavily-frozen windscreens with pre-existing
chips and cracks, I've never had them spread.

I guess the warning is for the brain dead who boil a kettle ful of
water take it straight outside a lob it overe the screen. Rather than
luke warm and carefully applied. Water straight form the cold tap
would proably work just as well. When it's getting close to or below
the ground frost point they water football pitches to keep 'em warm
and unfrozen.

The really nice side-effect is that it warms the glass, so helps reduce
misting on the inside.

We regulary get frost on the inside...


I've literally poured jugs full of water as hot as I can get it from the
hot tap over frozen screens for many years and have never had a problem.
No pussy-footing around with applying it carefully, just drenching it.

Tim

In message ,
writes
On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 22:47:37 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:




luke warm and carefully applied. Water straight form the cold tap
would proably work just as well. When it's getting close to or below
the ground frost point they water football pitches to keep 'em warm
and unfrozen.

That's how water meadows used to work,it wasn't to make the grass grow
like rice in paddy fields. A thin layer of water was trickled over the
meadows by the "Drowners" and this warmed the ground enough to make
the grass grow earlier in the season .

Oh!

Not entirely sure I agree with that. Long before my time but, the
ancient water bailiff who taught me to shoot, showed me where the
temporary dams were located to flood our meadows. The river side
grassland here is not dead flat so a considerable depth was needed to
cover all.

I understand mist irrigation can be used to protect fruit blossom from
frost.... something like providing a source of energy to supply the
latent heat of melting ice rather than it being drawn from the blossom
itself.

--
Tim Lamb

On 30/11/2014 08:52, Tim Lamb wrote:


I understand mist irrigation can be used to protect fruit blossom from
frost.... something like providing a source of energy to supply the
latent heat of melting ice rather than it being drawn from the blossom
itself.


The mist freezes on the buds and insulates them from the really cold
air. It releases heat when it freezes.

On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 08:52:34 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message ,
writes
On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 22:47:37 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:




luke warm and carefully applied. Water straight form the cold tap
would proably work just as well. When it's getting close to or below
the ground frost point they water football pitches to keep 'em warm
and unfrozen.

That's how water meadows used to work,it wasn't to make the grass grow
like rice in paddy fields. A thin layer of water was trickled over the
meadows by the "Drowners" and this warmed the ground enough to make
the grass grow earlier in the season .

Oh!

Not entirely sure I agree with that. Long before my time but, the
ancient water bailiff who taught me to shoot, showed me where the
temporary dams were located to flood our meadows. The river side
grassland here is not dead flat so a considerable depth was needed to
cover all.

There were local variations.
There were long unused water meadows where I grew up near the river
Torridge and I just assumed they were flooded paddy field style.

It wasn't till I joined a walking lecture tour around the remains of
some given by a hydrographer who works for Wiltshire CC amongst
others that the system as a described was described to me. This was
on the Hampshire Avon which has a fairly broad flood plain.

Up the road towards Salisbury English Heritage were going to make some
operable as a demonstration site but the rainfall of recent springs
seems to have delayed the project.

Probably more than you want know here.
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/...meadow-iha.pdf

G.Harman

In message ,
writes
On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 08:52:34 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message ,
writes
On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 22:47:37 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:




luke warm and carefully applied. Water straight form the cold tap
would proably work just as well. When it's getting close to or below
the ground frost point they water football pitches to keep 'em warm
and unfrozen.

That's how water meadows used to work,it wasn't to make the grass grow
like rice in paddy fields. A thin layer of water was trickled over the
meadows by the "Drowners" and this warmed the ground enough to make
the grass grow earlier in the season .

Oh!

Not entirely sure I agree with that. Long before my time but, the
ancient water bailiff who taught me to shoot, showed me where the
temporary dams were located to flood our meadows. The river side
grassland here is not dead flat so a considerable depth was needed to
cover all.

There were local variations.
There were long unused water meadows where I grew up near the river
Torridge and I just assumed they were flooded paddy field style.

It wasn't till I joined a walking lecture tour around the remains of
some given by a hydrographer who works for Wiltshire CC amongst
others that the system as a described was described to me. This was
on the Hampshire Avon which has a fairly broad flood plain.

Up the road towards Salisbury English Heritage were going to make some
operable as a demonstration site but the rainfall of recent springs
seems to have delayed the project.

Probably more than you want know here.
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/...-meadows/water
meadow-iha.pdf

Interesting. Ta!

I think the meadow nearest the farmhouse must have been modified to grow
Cress for London.

--
Tim Lamb

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 10:58:05 PM UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 18:02:29 +0000, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

Air temp approaching -10 C under clear skies and the windscreen
and
frost will be approaching -20 C.

What?

A clear night sky is at around -40 C. Thermo dynamics mean that the
different temperatures try to equalise but space is a bit big and
there isn't enough heat in the screen to warm up space. So the screen
just radiates heat into space and cools and cools and cools...

Bit of cloud cover reflects the radiation back keeping things warm.

It's perfectly possible to get a hefty ground frost with the air temp
remaining above zero.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Inversion. I've seen it flying through 500' on a frosty morning. Local coal fired power station was pumping out black smoke. When it reached the inversion it became trapped and spread across the sky like a river. Wish I'd had a camera with me

On 24/11/2014 19:03, Tim Watts wrote:
On 24/11/14 18:09, GB wrote:
On 24/11/2014 17:27, sm_jamieson wrote:
This year we have a little one to take to the child minders so hectic
mornings, and I have a diesel car which is slower to heat up than a
petrol car. So I was thinking of some type of auxhilliary heater that
can get things going. Any recommendations? - most of the 12V lighter
socket ones seem to have poor reviews.
Simon.

*Most* of the 12v lighter ones have poor reviews? Why only most? A
lighter socket can provide say 60w. It's like ****ing in the ocean.

Are you thinking of running a mains lead out to the car? Then, in
principle, any small heater with a thermostat will do the job, if left
on for an hour or two. The main problem will be stopping hot bits
melting the plastics in the car.

If you were doing the latter, might as well go the whole hog and have an
engine pre heater installed like the canadians often do. What you spend
on the setup might be paid back in part by better fuel economy and less
engine wear.

Some Scottish cars have them fitted by dealers up there.

On 25/11/2014 19:01, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 25 Nov 2014 10:34:45 -0800 (PST), sm_jamieson wrote:

Ford ?

Landrover Disco II

IIRC heated screens are only found on Fords and Landrovers, something
to do with licencing/patents?

The original Ford patent expired 2 years ago. Now anyone could do it.
But car makers have "Ford patent" no can do mentality. What they should
have had is "plans in place and set to roll for when it expires".

There may be other patents that are needed to make it work properly that
haven't expired. Simple things like a relay so it doesn't work until
engine is running so you don't flatten the battery to the point it won't
start.

"Peter Hill" wrote in message
...
On 25/11/2014 19:01, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 25 Nov 2014 10:34:45 -0800 (PST), sm_jamieson wrote:

Ford ?

Landrover Disco II

IIRC heated screens are only found on Fords and Landrovers, something
to do with licencing/patents?

The original Ford patent expired 2 years ago. Now anyone could do it. But
car makers have "Ford patent" no can do mentality. What they should have
had is "plans in place and set to roll for when it expires".

There may be other patents that are needed to make it work properly that
haven't expired. Simple things like a relay so it doesn't work until
engine is running so you don't flatten the battery to the point it won't
start.

Unlikely to be relevant now with modern computer controlled everything.

On Mon, 01 Dec 2014 20:29:35 +0000, Peter Hill
wrote:

On 25/11/2014 19:01, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 25 Nov 2014 10:34:45 -0800 (PST), sm_jamieson wrote:

Ford ?

Landrover Disco II

IIRC heated screens are only found on Fords and Landrovers, something
to do with licencing/patents?

The original Ford patent expired 2 years ago. Now anyone could do it.
But car makers have "Ford patent" no can do mentality. What they should
have had is "plans in place and set to roll for when it expires".

Fairly sure I saw them as an option on the BMW incarnation of the MINI
as far back as 2002.

G.Harman

In article ,
Peter Hill wrote:
On 24/11/2014 19:03, Tim Watts wrote:
On 24/11/14 18:09, GB wrote:
On 24/11/2014 17:27, sm_jamieson wrote:
This year we have a little one to take to the child minders so hectic
mornings, and I have a diesel car which is slower to heat up than a
petrol car. So I was thinking of some type of auxhilliary heater that
can get things going. Any recommendations? - most of the 12V lighter
socket ones seem to have poor reviews.
Simon.

*Most* of the 12v lighter ones have poor reviews? Why only most? A
lighter socket can provide say 60w. It's like ****ing in the ocean.

Are you thinking of running a mains lead out to the car? Then, in
principle, any small heater with a thermostat will do the job, if left
on for an hour or two. The main problem will be stopping hot bits
melting the plastics in the car.

If you were doing the latter, might as well go the whole hog and have an
engine pre heater installed like the canadians often do. What you spend
on the setup might be paid back in part by better fuel economy and less
engine wear.

Some Scottish cars have them fitted by dealers up there.

having spent a night in Deeside when the temperature dropped to -10°C, I
can well understand why.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:57:33 PM UTC, fred wrote:
On Saturday, 29 November 2014 11:30:37 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
fred wrote:
Are you certain you're not confusing it with the residual heat
function?

Did you have this on your car?

Something which could retain a reasonable amount of heat overnight
would likely be very large. So where was it fitted?

Well I was beginning to doubt my memory and having made various searches
on Google and turning up nothing I finally emailed a query to BMW U.K.

However I see from the following post that the estimable Clive George
did a search on "BMW latent heat store" and turned up some interesting
results which would appear to confirm my memory. Thank heavens for that.
My memory is well shot as it is but I don't think I've reached the stage
of imagining things just yet.

Right - the mystery is solved. It's something which appeared in 2001 which
explains why it was not on the options list for my '97 model.

It's not a lump of aluminium but a chemical reaction based on a salt
solution.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Nope. Doesn't solve the mystery for me. The last 5 series I bought was in 1997 and that is when I remember it from And I do not remember anything about chemical reactions what I remember was along the lines of a block of aluminium.

Perhaps BMW U.K. an elucidate.

This was my query to BMW U.K.

" can you help? I have a memory of an optional extra on the 5 series some 15-20 years ago. It was basically a large piece of aluminium held in the engine compartment and heated by the engine. This piece of aluminium would retain some of this heat over night and thus give a more comfortable start on a cold morning.

And this their reply:-

"Thank you for your online enquiry dated November 29, 2014.


I can advise that Yes this is correct. This feature was on the E39 5 Series (two generations ago) and was called a latent heater.



We now offer a different system, auxiliary heating, which for some vehicles in the range can be turned on shortly before departing via a remote control to heat the cabin.



Once again, thank you for contacting BMW UK.


Yours sincerely



BMW UK

In article ,
fred wrote:
his was my query to BMW U.K.

" can you help? I have a memory of an optional extra on the 5 series
some 15-20 years ago. It was basically a large piece of aluminium held
in the engine compartment and heated by the engine. This piece of
aluminium would retain some of this heat over night and thus give a more
comfortable start on a cold morning.

And this their reply:-

"Thank you for your online enquiry dated November 29, 2014.


I can advise that Yes this is correct. This feature was on the E39 5
Series (two generations ago) and was called a latent heater.

According to my info, it was not available in the UK. Or, apparently,
North America.

We now offer a different system, auxiliary heating, which for some
vehicles in the range can be turned on shortly before departing via a
remote control to heat the cabin.

That sounds like a fuel burning cabin heater - the normal way of doing
things.

A post to the E39 forum - which has worldwide memembers, although the
majority in the US - had no one actually admitting to ever having seen
this device.

So must admit to wondering if it is vapourwear?

--
*Why can't women put on mascara with their mouth closed?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 11:10:47 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

So must admit to wondering if it is vapourwear?

No. I found a German forum where someone warned they could fail, releasing the
salt into the coolant circuit, which damaged the engine block. Offered until
9/98, apparently.


Thomas Prufer

In article ,
Thomas Prufer wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 11:10:47 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

So must admit to wondering if it is vapourwear?

No. I found a German forum where someone warned they could fail,
releasing the salt into the coolant circuit, which damaged the engine
block. Offered until 9/98, apparently.


Right. Did wonder why it apparently was never offered in NA given some
parts of that have as severe winters as Germany?

--
*Forget about World Peace...Visualize using your turn signal.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 11:11:47 AM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
fred wrote:
his was my query to BMW U.K.

" can you help? I have a memory of an optional extra on the 5 series
some 15-20 years ago. It was basically a large piece of aluminium held
in the engine compartment and heated by the engine. This piece of
aluminium would retain some of this heat over night and thus give a more
comfortable start on a cold morning.

And this their reply:-

"Thank you for your online enquiry dated November 29, 2014.


I can advise that Yes this is correct. This feature was on the E39 5
Series (two generations ago) and was called a latent heater.

According to my info, it was not available in the UK. Or, apparently,
North America.


Well BMW UK must be telling porkies then.


We now offer a different system, auxiliary heating, which for some
vehicles in the range can be turned on shortly before departing via a
remote control to heat the cabin.

That sounds like a fuel burning cabin heater - the normal way of doing
things.

What ? My description of a large lump of aluminium heated by the engine and which BMW UK say is correct ? Where is the fuel burning cabin heater coming from ?

A post to the E39 forum - which has worldwide memembers, although the
majority in the US - had no one actually admitting to ever having seen
this device.

I always think these forums are full of fanboys and wannabees where people have a sig alleging ownership of lots of goodies. I've no idea of the membership of this E39 forum and how it relates to total ownership of BMWs and what if any expertise its members actually have and how many read your query and could give a fiddlers about replying to it, and why would they have to 'admit' to owning it anyway

So must admit to wondering if it is vapourwear?

snip

I'm sorry if I have offended your assumed expertise on all things BMW but if you aren't prepared to accept that (a) I did actually see this on a spec sheet (Why on earth would I make this up ?) and (b) BMW agree that it did exist them I give up. The floor is yours.

In article ,
fred wrote:
We now offer a different system, auxiliary heating, which for some
vehicles in the range can be turned on shortly before departing via a
remote control to heat the cabin.

That sounds like a fuel burning cabin heater - the normal way of doing
things.

What ? My description of a large lump of aluminium heated by the engine
and which BMW UK say is correct ? Where is the fuel burning cabin heater
coming from ?

Sigh. Your description of a large lump of aluminium was never correct.

Auxilliary heating tends to mean an auxilliary heater. Not some form of
heat store. Which isn't going to work if the car is left unused for some
time - whereas an auxilliary heater can be used at any time.

A post to the E39 forum - which has worldwide memembers, although the
majority in the US - had no one actually admitting to ever having seen
this device.

I always think these forums are full of fanboys and wannabees where
people have a sig alleging ownership of lots of goodies. I've no idea of
the membership of this E39 forum and how it relates to total ownership
of BMWs and what if any expertise its members actually have and how many
read your query and could give a fiddlers about replying to it, and why
would they have to 'admit' to owning it anyway

So you know nothing about this particular forum - but think it full of
'wannabees' or whatever?

So must admit to wondering if it is vapourwear?

snip

I'm sorry if I have offended your assumed expertise on all things BMW
but if you aren't prepared to accept that (a) I did actually see this on
a spec sheet (Why on earth would I make this up ?) and (b) BMW agree
that it did exist them I give up. The floor is yours.

You've never obviously had any dealing with BMW UK if you think them the
font of all knowledge.

I'll give you just one example. Both the front struts on my E39 failed (at
different times) The platform that the spring sits on sheared off. Not
something you'd expect to see on any car no matter how old or even abused.
BMW UK denied all knowledge of such a design fault - yet in the US had
issued a re-call to add a clamp on bracket to strengthen this exact part.
When this was pointed out to them they bumbled on about US roads and usage
being different to the UK. Even tried to say the part was different -
until pointed out it had the same part number. Could give you plenty more
examples of them not knowing much about the cars they sell. And their
dealers are even worse...

--
*Even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn now and again *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 03/12/2014 13:05, fred wrote:

What ? My description of a large lump of aluminium heated by the engine and which BMW UK say is correct ? Where is the fuel burning cabin heater coming from ?

I'd trust the BMW sales bod to know that such a device was sold, however
I'd not trust them to know what it's made of.

The large lump of aluminium is wrong according to what I've read. Latent
heat store needs to involve a phase change (that's what the 'Latent' bit
is), and you don't want to be doing that with Al :-)

The reason you use something with a phase change rather than just a hot
something is that you can store more energy with the former.

It's a box containing (I think) a sodium acetate solution, connected to
the cooling system, presumably with some control gear to use the heat.

So I reckon you were right in that there was an option. But it was never
a large lump of Al.

And the auxiliary heating does sound a lot more like it's going to be a
fuel burning heater. The alternative is that it's an electric one, but
taking a lot of power out of your battery prior to starting when it's
very cold is generally regarded as a poor move.

(and no, I'm neither a BMW owner nor a 'wannabe' - I just know how to
find things on t'internet)

On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 1:48:25 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
fred wrote:
We now offer a different system, auxiliary heating, which for some
vehicles in the range can be turned on shortly before departing via a
remote control to heat the cabin.

That sounds like a fuel burning cabin heater - the normal way of doing
things.

What ? My description of a large lump of aluminium heated by the engine
and which BMW UK say is correct ? Where is the fuel burning cabin heater
coming from ?

Sigh. Your description of a large lump of aluminium was never correct..

Sigh but my claim of the existence of this device was correct and your claim that it didn't exist was wrong.

I never claimed to know the ins and outs of the device or how it worked. I just said I remembered seeing one on an options list and remembering that the description included a reference to a large piece of aluminium. Perhaps I was incorrect in how I remembered how it worked but the point here is not that my memory may have failed on that but that you with you were completely wrong in stating it didn't exist, no matter how it worked.

You have spent your postings denying the existence of this because you had never heard of it, because your buddies on some forum had never heard it, because It didn't exist on any of the 'fully loaded' BMWs you have owned, (an amusing statement)Even when BMW UK confirmed its existence you still continued to deny it.

Auxilliary heating tends to mean an auxilliary heater. Not some form of
heat store. Which isn't going to work if the car is left unused for some
time - whereas an auxilliary heater can be used at any time.

Irrelevant to this discussion.


A post to the E39 forum - which has worldwide memembers, although the
majority in the US - had no one actually admitting to ever having seen
this device.

I always think these forums are full of fanboys and wannabees where
people have a sig alleging ownership of lots of goodies. I've no idea of
the membership of this E39 forum and how it relates to total ownership
of BMWs and what if any expertise its members actually have and how many
read your query and could give a fiddlers about replying to it, and why
would they have to 'admit' to owning it anyway

So you know nothing about this particular forum - but think it full of
'wannabees' or whatever?

Please re read what I said. I said 'These forums' I've seen enough of them to know what they are like not to have to visit every one. If this particular one is full of very reasoned debate amongst genuine cognoscenti then fair enough but it would be an exception.
Besides they weren't much cop in this instance were they ? They hadn't heard of this device. Your post elicited no response, therefore it didn't exist.. Not really very logical reasoning that, is it ?




So must admit to wondering if it is vapourwear?

Wonder again. Your vapourware has materialised.

snip

I'm sorry if I have offended your assumed expertise on all things BMW
but if you aren't prepared to accept that (a) I did actually see this on
a spec sheet (Why on earth would I make this up ?) and (b) BMW agree
that it did exist them I give up. The floor is yours.

You've never obviously had any dealing with BMW UK if you think them the
font of all knowledge.

Well only to the extent that I've been buying their cars for the last 20 years. I never claimed they were the font of all knowledge I merely posted a copy of my query and their answer.

You were the person insisting that because you hadn't heard of this device, nor had any of the vaunted experts on the E39 forum, therefore it couldn't exist. Except that it now transpires it did exist and you were utterly wrong


I'll give you just one example. Both the front struts on my E39 failed (at
different times) The platform that the spring sits on sheared off. Not
something you'd expect to see on any car no matter how old or even abused..
BMW UK denied all knowledge of such a design fault - yet in the US had
issued a re-call to add a clamp on bracket to strengthen this exact part.
When this was pointed out to them they bumbled on about US roads and usage
being different to the UK. Even tried to say the part was different -
until pointed out it had the same part number. Could give you plenty more
examples of them not knowing much about the cars they sell. And their
dealers are even worse..

..
Irrelevant to the subject at hand. I imagine it would take very little trouble to turn up examples of sterling service from BMW U.K.


--
*Even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn now and again *

Well you found your acorn didn't you. Now you know something you didn't when you started. Glad I could help you see.

I must confess I always considered your postings on this forum to be reasonable and informative. I don't know why you've gone ape on this one.

Pax vobiscum

On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:58:41 +0000, Clive George wrote:

And the auxiliary heating does sound a lot more like it's going to be a
fuel burning heater.

Common on modern diesels, especially in cold climates - they're so
thermally efficient that heaters are often ****e, so Eber/Webasto-style
spaceheaters are necessary. All it needs is a timer. Just like the
factory-fit Eber-plus-timer on our '80s VW camper...

On Wednesday, 3 December 2014 18:58:50 UTC, Clive George wrote:
On 03/12/2014 13:05, fred wrote:

What ? My description of a large lump of aluminium heated by the engine and which BMW UK say is correct ? Where is the fuel burning cabin heater coming from ?

I'd trust the BMW sales bod to know that such a device was sold, however
I'd not trust them to know what it's made of.

The large lump of aluminium is wrong according to what I've read. Latent
heat store needs to involve a phase change (that's what the 'Latent' bit
is), and you don't want to be doing that with Al :-)

The reason you use something with a phase change rather than just a hot
something is that you can store more energy with the former.

It's a box containing (I think) a sodium acetate solution, connected to
the cooling system, presumably with some control gear to use the heat.

So I reckon you were right in that there was an option. But it was never
a large lump of Al.

And the auxiliary heating does sound a lot more like it's going to be a
fuel burning heater. The alternative is that it's an electric one, but
taking a lot of power out of your battery prior to starting when it's
very cold is generally regarded as a poor move.

(and no, I'm neither a BMW owner nor a 'wannabe' - I just know how to
find things on t'internet)

Well I didn't ask a BMW sales bod. but this Wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3A...ries_%28E39%29

has some interesting comments on BMW latent heat devices. There is one comment about using sand to store engine heat to be released later. This is closer to what I remember. After all electric storage heaters use bricks or concrete blocks to store heat. These obviously would be too heavy for use in a car, hence possibly, the concept of using aluminium.

And for those still doubting the existence of these item 538 on this options list shows them

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...1#post19880531

Bimmerforums? Hmm. Most be a more erudite forum than that previously mentioned.

Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:58:41 +0000, Clive George wrote:

And the auxiliary heating does sound a lot more like it's going to be a
fuel burning heater.

Common on modern diesels, especially in cold climates - they're so
thermally efficient that heaters are often ****e, so Eber/Webasto-style
spaceheaters are necessary. All it needs is a timer. Just like the
factory-fit Eber-plus-timer on our '80s VW camper...

I don't think efficiency comes into it. All 100bhp engines, whatever the
fuel will produce the same heat energy (approximately). Diesels engines
tend to have considerably more thermal mass though so they take longer to
warm up.

Tim

On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 11:18:37 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

I don't think efficiency comes into it. All 100bhp engines, whatever the
fuel will produce the same heat energy (approximately).

Surely if they're using less fuel to produce that 100bhp, they'll produce
less heat?

Adrian wrote:
On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 11:18:37 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

I don't think efficiency comes into it. All 100bhp engines, whatever the
fuel will produce the same heat energy (approximately).

Surely if they're using less fuel to produce that 100bhp, they'll produce
less heat?

BHP *is* heat. An I/C engine is a heat engine that turns heat into motive
power. A diesel gets more heat from a given volume of fuel but all this
means is that fuel to heat conversion is more efficient. BHP for BHP, the
heat output is the same. In general a Diesel engine is bigger and heavier
to extract this extra heat from the fuel so consequently have longer warm
up times.

In addition, in this day and age cooling systems are optimised to speed up
the *engine* warm up, not the cabin warm up, to reduce emissions.
Tim

Adrian wrote:
On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 11:18:37 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

I don't think efficiency comes into it. All 100bhp engines, whatever the
fuel will produce the same heat energy (approximately).

Surely if they're using less fuel to produce that 100bhp, they'll produce
less heat?

Or, in short, they produce more heat from less fuel for any given power
output.

Tim

In article , fred
wrote:
Sigh. Your description of a large lump of aluminium was never correct..

Sigh but my claim of the existence of this device was correct and your
claim that it didn't exist was wrong.

Did you actually read what I wrote? I'll give you a clue:-

**********

From: Dave Plowman (News)
Subject: car auxhilliary heater
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 11:05
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y

Never heard of that one.

**********

I never claimed to know the ins and outs of the device or how it
worked. I just said I remembered seeing one on an options list and
remembering that the description included a reference to a large piece
of aluminium.

Well, you managed to remember one bit wrong but insist the other bit is
right?

Perhaps I was incorrect in how I remembered how it worked
but the point here is not that my memory may have failed on that but
that you with you were completely wrong in stating it didn't exist, no
matter how it worked.

For something to exist other than in a catalogue, someone somewhere would
have to have seen one. And despite some research, I can't find any
evidence of anyone who has. But then you probably believe the MPG etc
claims in advertising blurb too...

You have spent your postings denying the existence of this because you
had never heard of it, because your buddies on some forum had never
heard it, because It didn't exist on any of the 'fully loaded' BMWs you
have owned, (an amusing statement)Even when BMW UK confirmed its
existence you still continued to deny it.

You think you've had reply from the Technical Director (or whatever) of
BMW?

--
*Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
fred wrote:
(and no, I'm neither a BMW owner nor a 'wannabe' - I just know how to
find things on t'internet)

Well I didn't ask a BMW sales bod. but this Wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3A...ries_%28E39%29

has some interesting comments on BMW latent heat devices. There is one
comment about using sand to store engine heat to be released later. This
is closer to what I remember. After all electric storage heaters use
bricks or concrete blocks to store heat. These obviously would be too
heavy for use in a car, hence possibly, the concept of using aluminium.

That article looks more like the ramblings of a deranged robot...

And for those still doubting the existence of these item 538 on this
options list shows them

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...1#post19880531

Bimmerforums? Hmm. Most be a more erudite forum than that previously
mentioned.

So now it's ok to use forums when it suits you?

However, you seem to have missed the bit that it's talking about an E38 (7
Series) when you claimed to have seen this in a 5 Series option list.

--
*If we weren't meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:58:41 +0000, Clive George wrote:

And the auxiliary heating does sound a lot more like it's going to be a
fuel burning heater.

Common on modern diesels, especially in cold climates - they're so
thermally efficient that heaters are often ****e, so Eber/Webasto-style
spaceheaters are necessary. All it needs is a timer. Just like the
factory-fit Eber-plus-timer on our '80s VW camper...

It's the logical way to do it. Problem with any heat store is whether it
will work when needed. If it wasn't fully 'charged' by the previous
journey, it's not going to work when needed. And one which might work the
next morning might not work if the car isn't used every day.

--
*The longest recorded flightof a chicken is thirteen seconds *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

fred wrote:

I didn't ask a BMW sales bod. but this Wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3A...ries_%28E39%29

That article looks more like the ramblings of a deranged robot...

Well it *is* a talk page, not an article, so backstage discussion by the
wiki elves ...

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 1:54:58 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
fred wrote:
(and no, I'm neither a BMW owner nor a 'wannabe' - I just know how to
find things on t'internet)

Well I didn't ask a BMW sales bod. but this Wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3A...ries_%28E39%29

has some interesting comments on BMW latent heat devices. There is one
comment about using sand to store engine heat to be released later. This
is closer to what I remember. After all electric storage heaters use
bricks or concrete blocks to store heat. These obviously would be too
heavy for use in a car, hence possibly, the concept of using aluminium.

That article looks more like the ramblings of a deranged robot...

And for those still doubting the existence of these item 538 on this
options list shows them

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...1#post19880531

Bimmerforums? Hmm. Most be a more erudite forum than that previously
mentioned.

So now it's ok to use forums when it suits you?

Not what I said

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/erudite

Read and understand.

This forum managed to turn up evidence of the existence of this heater where your much vaunted forum never heard of it.

However, you seem to have missed the bit that it's talking about an E38 (7
Series) when you claimed to have seen this in a 5 Series option list.

*If we weren't meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 1:44:56 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , fred
wrote:
Sigh. Your description of a large lump of aluminium was never correct..

Sigh but my claim of the existence of this device was correct and your
claim that it didn't exist was wrong.

Did you actually read what I wrote? I'll give you a clue:-

**********

From: Dave Plowman (News)
Subject: car auxhilliary heater
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 11:05
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y

Never heard of that one.

**********

No idea what you are wittering on about.

I never claimed to know the ins and outs of the device or how it
worked. I just said I remembered seeing one on an options list and
remembering that the description included a reference to a large piece
of aluminium.

Well, you managed to remember one bit wrong but insist the other bit is
right?

And what's so strange about that. At least I admit my failings. You are still floundering around trying to deny the existence despite

At least one person remembers it

BMW UK confirmed it.

I showed you a BMW options list with it on it

Various forums mention it.

People have asked for advice on servicing it.

WTF does it take to convince you. Have you anything between your ears. Give it up. You're flogging a dead horse.

Perhaps I was incorrect in how I remembered how it worked
but the point here is not that my memory may have failed on that but
that you with you were completely wrong in stating it didn't exist, no
matter how it worked.

For something to exist other than in a catalogue, someone somewhere would
have to have seen one. And despite some research, I can't find any
evidence of anyone who has. But then you probably believe the MPG etc
claims in advertising blurb too...

Your research failed abysmally to turn up ANYTHING on it until you were pointed in the correct direction.

Are you seriously suggesting that BMW would offer an imaginary product for sale ?

Did you bother to follow any of the references given in the Wiki article.

Are all those who contributed to this article making it all up.



MPG figures in advertising blurbs has sfa to do with this and is merely another of your red herrings

You have spent your postings denying the existence of this because you
had never heard of it, because your buddies on some forum had never
heard it, because It didn't exist on any of the 'fully loaded' BMWs you
have owned, (an amusing statement)Even when BMW UK confirmed its
existence you still continued to deny it.

You think you've had reply from the Technical Director (or whatever) of
BMW?


Did I claim that ? And why would it be beyond the possibility ?


*Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 2:09:37 PM UTC, fred wrote:
On Thursday, December 4, 2014 1:54:58 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
fred wrote:
(and no, I'm neither a BMW owner nor a 'wannabe' - I just know how to
find things on t'internet)

Well I didn't ask a BMW sales bod. but this Wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3A...ries_%28E39%29

has some interesting comments on BMW latent heat devices. There is one
comment about using sand to store engine heat to be released later. This
is closer to what I remember. After all electric storage heaters use
bricks or concrete blocks to store heat. These obviously would be too
heavy for use in a car, hence possibly, the concept of using aluminium.

That article looks more like the ramblings of a deranged robot...

And for those still doubting the existence of these item 538 on this
options list shows them

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...1#post19880531

Bimmerforums? Hmm. Most be a more erudite forum than that previously
mentioned.

So now it's ok to use forums when it suits you?

Not what I said

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/erudite

Read and understand.

This forum managed to turn up evidence of the existence of this heater where your much vaunted forum never heard of it.

However, you seem to have missed the bit that it's talking about an E38 (7
Series) when you claimed to have seen this in a 5 Series option list.

*If we weren't meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

So for a product that doesn't exist the following are all imaginary?

http://parts.bmwofsouthatlanta.com/p...148364481.html

http://bmwfans.info/parts-catalog/41148364481/

And both of these refer to 5 series BMWs

You really will have to learn how to do basic research.

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 2:36:00 PM UTC, fred wrote:
On Thursday, December 4, 2014 2:09:37 PM UTC, fred wrote:
On Thursday, December 4, 2014 1:54:58 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
fred wrote:
(and no, I'm neither a BMW owner nor a 'wannabe' - I just know how to
find things on t'internet)

Well I didn't ask a BMW sales bod. but this Wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3A...ries_%28E39%29

has some interesting comments on BMW latent heat devices. There is one
comment about using sand to store engine heat to be released later. This
is closer to what I remember. After all electric storage heaters use
bricks or concrete blocks to store heat. These obviously would be too
heavy for use in a car, hence possibly, the concept of using aluminium.

That article looks more like the ramblings of a deranged robot...

And for those still doubting the existence of these item 538 on this
options list shows them

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...1#post19880531

Bimmerforums? Hmm. Most be a more erudite forum than that previously
mentioned.

So now it's ok to use forums when it suits you?

Not what I said

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/erudite

Read and understand.

This forum managed to turn up evidence of the existence of this heater where your much vaunted forum never heard of it.

However, you seem to have missed the bit that it's talking about an E38 (7
Series) when you claimed to have seen this in a 5 Series option list.

*If we weren't meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

So for a product that doesn't exist the following are all imaginary?

http://parts.bmwofsouthatlanta.com/p...148364481.html

http://bmwfans.info/parts-catalog/41148364481/

And both of these refer to 5 series BMWs

You really will have to learn how to do basic research.

Oh and reference to it appeared in a Haynes manual. For a phantom product this is going some.

On 04/12/2014 07:07, fred wrote:
On Wednesday, 3 December 2014 18:58:50 UTC, Clive George wrote:
On 03/12/2014 13:05, fred wrote:

What ? My description of a large lump of aluminium heated by the engine and which BMW UK say is correct ? Where is the fuel burning cabin heater coming from ?

I'd trust the BMW sales bod to know that such a device was sold, however
I'd not trust them to know what it's made of.

The large lump of aluminium is wrong according to what I've read. Latent
heat store needs to involve a phase change (that's what the 'Latent' bit
is), and you don't want to be doing that with Al :-)

The reason you use something with a phase change rather than just a hot
something is that you can store more energy with the former.

It's a box containing (I think) a sodium acetate solution, connected to
the cooling system, presumably with some control gear to use the heat.

So I reckon you were right in that there was an option. But it was never
a large lump of Al.

And the auxiliary heating does sound a lot more like it's going to be a
fuel burning heater. The alternative is that it's an electric one, but
taking a lot of power out of your battery prior to starting when it's
very cold is generally regarded as a poor move.

(and no, I'm neither a BMW owner nor a 'wannabe' - I just know how to
find things on t'internet)

Well I didn't ask a BMW sales bod.

You wrote to BMW UK didn't you? The reply will have been from a
sales/marketing/PR bod.

but this Wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3A...ries_%28E39%29

has some interesting comments on BMW latent heat devices. There is one comment about using sand to store engine heat to be released later. This is closer to what I remember. After all electric storage heaters use bricks or concrete blocks to store heat. These obviously would be too heavy for use in a car, hence possibly, the concept of using aluminium.

Sand wouldn't be latent heat storage either - it has to be phase change
for the name, and for it to actually work. I see it isn't necessarily
sodium acetate though.

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 2:09:37 PM UTC, fred wrote:
On Thursday, December 4, 2014 1:54:58 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
fred wrote:
(and no, I'm neither a BMW owner nor a 'wannabe' - I just know how to
find things on t'internet)

Well I didn't ask a BMW sales bod. but this Wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3A...ries_%28E39%29

has some interesting comments on BMW latent heat devices. There is one
comment about using sand to store engine heat to be released later. This
is closer to what I remember. After all electric storage heaters use
bricks or concrete blocks to store heat. These obviously would be too
heavy for use in a car, hence possibly, the concept of using aluminium.

That article looks more like the ramblings of a deranged robot...

And for those still doubting the existence of these item 538 on this
options list shows them

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...1#post19880531

Bimmerforums? Hmm. Most be a more erudite forum than that previously
mentioned.

So now it's ok to use forums when it suits you?

Not what I said

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/erudite

Read and understand.

This forum managed to turn up evidence of the existence of this heater where your much vaunted forum never heard of it.

However, you seem to have missed the bit that it's talking about an E38 (7
Series) when you claimed to have seen this in a 5 Series option list.


You seem to have missed the disclaimer at the top of the page.

" Not sure if this is E38 - probably not "



*If we weren't meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 06:56:44 -0800, fred wrote:

However, you seem to have missed the bit that it's talking about an
E38 (7 Series) when you claimed to have seen this in a 5 Series
option list.

You seem to have missed the disclaimer at the top of the page.

" Not sure if this is E38 - probably not "

Agreed - it does appear to be all-model and covering a fairly wide
period, going by the references throughout it to other model ranges.
E30, E31, E32, E34, E36, E38, E39, E85, R50, R53

Option code 907 is interesting... "James Bond Edition"

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 2:50:11 PM UTC, Clive George wrote:
On 04/12/2014 07:07, fred wrote:
On Wednesday, 3 December 2014 18:58:50 UTC, Clive George wrote:
On 03/12/2014 13:05, fred wrote:

What ? My description of a large lump of aluminium heated by the engine and which BMW UK say is correct ? Where is the fuel burning cabin heater coming from ?

I'd trust the BMW sales bod to know that such a device was sold, however
I'd not trust them to know what it's made of.

The large lump of aluminium is wrong according to what I've read. Latent
heat store needs to involve a phase change (that's what the 'Latent' bit
is), and you don't want to be doing that with Al :-)

The reason you use something with a phase change rather than just a hot
something is that you can store more energy with the former.

It's a box containing (I think) a sodium acetate solution, connected to
the cooling system, presumably with some control gear to use the heat.

So I reckon you were right in that there was an option. But it was never
a large lump of Al.

And the auxiliary heating does sound a lot more like it's going to be a
fuel burning heater. The alternative is that it's an electric one, but
taking a lot of power out of your battery prior to starting when it's
very cold is generally regarded as a poor move.

(and no, I'm neither a BMW owner nor a 'wannabe' - I just know how to
find things on t'internet)

Well I didn't ask a BMW sales bod.

You wrote to BMW UK didn't you? The reply will have been from a
sales/marketing/PR bod.


Perhaps. Who knows? And anyway he may have researched his reply whoever he/she was. Who knows. This is all conjecture.
but this Wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3A...ries_%28E39%29

has some interesting comments on BMW latent heat devices. There is one comment about using sand to store engine heat to be released later. This is closer to what I remember. After all electric storage heaters use bricks or concrete blocks to store heat. These obviously would be too heavy for use in a car, hence possibly, the concept of using aluminium.

Sand wouldn't be latent heat storage either - it has to be phase change
for the name, and for it to actually work. I see it isn't necessarily
sodium acetate though.


Not having any knowledge of how a latent heat store works my tenuous grasp takes it to mean that heat from the engine is stored in a chemical solution.. By any possibility could this solution be contained in a lump of aluminium ?. Could that be where I got the idea from? As I had no real interest in what was an expensive extra I would not have studied it in detail

In article ,
fred wrote:
You really will have to learn how to do basic research.

I'm still waiting for you to produce evidence it did exist in pratice. A
comment on it from an actual owner will do.

--
*I will always cherish the initial misconceptions I had about you

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
fred wrote:
Oh and reference to it appeared in a Haynes manual. For a phantom
product this is going some.

Crikey. Quoting Haynes as proof of anything strikes of pure desperation.

I take it your one of these bar room 'mechanics'?

--
*Constipated People Don't Give A Crap*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.