On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 04:17:58 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

Uncle Peter wrote
GB wrote
On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a
house I'm letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.

Why is it simpler?

You just push the lever instead of finding
some fuse wire and rewiring the fuse.

Fuses hardly ever blow,

True.

unlike some breakers....

None of my plug in breakers that go where
the fuse wire holder goes has ever blown.

Yet above you're saying how convenient they are.

--
Circular Definition: see Definition, Circular.

On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 09:03:19 +0100, charles wrote:

In article , Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 08:20:33 +0100, charles
wrote:

In article , Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 23:46:42 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

Martin Brown wrote
Uncle Peter wrote

A woman just told me she had her house rewired because it hadn't
been done for 30 years. Have you ever bothered? I mean if it
works, why not just leave it? Wire doesn't rot.

The copper wire might not but the insulation around it certainly
does - especially if there is some ozone about. Take a look at what
happens to Post Office rubber bands after a year or so and then
worry about it!

Rubber bands are nothing like the insulation used on electrical
wiring.

I have some old rubber extension cords that my dad had, must be well
over 60 years old now, they're still fine insulation wise.

The plastic extension cords I used when building the house 40 years
ago now are still fine and the insulated wiring in the house that I
did myself is even better, essentially because it was always better
than the extension cords and doesn't even get walked on because it's
a flat roof with only a max of 15" of space in the roof space. And
that stuff does get pretty hot in summer because its above the
ceiling insulation and below the metal deck roof and we routinely
have 10 days in a row over 100F, the roof space does get pretty hot
in summer.

If you are still on prehistoric round pin plugs and wire fuses then
it is probably time for a rewiring by now.

Makes more sense to just change the sockets and CU.

Mine was done with wire fuses, just because there was a shortage of
breakers at the time and the electrical supply authority had noticed
that I was powering the entire house from the builder's temporary
supply using an extension cord and so there was some urgency to to
the meter box and make it legal. I just use those breakers that plug
in in place of the fuse wire block.

Can't be arsed to redo the whole thing because that would involve
moving the meters and would involve getting an electrician to say he
did that and the two I know who would be happy to do that, one has
died of cancer and the other has moved away and couldn't be bothered
with the stupid training requirement to keep his license.

Why can't you move the meters yourself? If it's anything like mine,
there's a 100A fuse before the meter, which you can pull out while you
move the meter.

They should be sealed in place with a security tag which you break at
your peril.

Easy enough to buy a new tag and clamp tool. Or just leave it untagged
like an electrician I know does. The electricity board don't say
anything. After all it's the only way to shut off the electricity into
your house. My gas pipe has a shut off lever before the meter for an
emergency, so the electric should have the same.

why - can you have an electricity leak before the meter?

You mean before the consumer unit, which is inside, while the meter and main fuse is outside. Yes of course.

--
If voting could really change things, it would be illegal.

On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 10:50:58 +0100, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
"Uncle Peter" writes:
A woman just told me she had her house rewired because it hadn't been done for 30 years. Have you ever bothered? I mean if it works, why not just leave it? Wire doesn't rot.

Cable:

At 30 years old, it will be PVC cable.
Life of PVC cable depends on running temperature. At max running temperature
(70C), life is estimated at 22 years. However, at room temperature, standard
PVC cable life is estimated at just over 1000 years, and most cables in a
home spend most of their time at room temperature.

Accessories:

Wiring accessories (sockets, switches, consumer units, lampholders, etc)
generally have a life of around 30 years. That's not to say they'll all
die at 30 years old, but the first ones will start deteriorating by then,
and you should consider an extensive inspection of them all to ensure
any are replaced before they become unsafe. You might take the opportunity
to change all the sockets and switches to a more current design, and so
they all still match.

It's obvious when a socket is ****ed. You can see it's falling apart of charred or melted, or it makes poor connections when you plug something in.

Accessories which handle high currents (such as electric showers, hobs,
immersion heaters, etc) can age much more quickly, and in the process,
can generate local heating at the cable terminations which rapidly ages
the cable there too. These should be checked more often and high quality
versions chosen to give best life of the installation as a whole.

Only if the wrong wires have been used. Why do people insist on fitting wires that get used near their maximum rating? My shower cable is 60 amps, yet it's connected to a 30A fuse in the CU and the shower is 7kW.

Design:

The design of a wiring installation will become outdated as it increasingly
fails to meet current needs.

In my parents' 1950's home (which was wired with a ring circuit and 13A
sockets, fortunately), the standard was one socket per room, with 2 in
the kitchen. They had to pay £1 for any extra sockets installed during
the build (they paid for 2 extra in the living room).

In early 1960's, the Parker Morris report on standards in council housing
was published, and recommended an increase on things like sockets. Although
it only applied to council housing, the result was that council houses of
the early 1960's were better quality than most new private occupier houses of
the time, and the whole housing industry quickly adopted much of the Parker
Morris report in order to catch up.

Nowadays, rooms will often have 12 lights, as many as 10 sockets (and
nearly all doubles, not singles), with a cluster around the expected
position of the entertainment centre. This is a far cry from a 1950's
home, which although the wiring is probably fine if not abused over the
years, original accessories will be well aging, and insufficient sockets
if not expanded over the years.

Most people just buy a 6 way strip to sit behind the TV. TV, DVD, etc use nothing like 13 amps.

--
Confucius say: "People who make Confucius joke speak bad English."

On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 22:03:40 +0100, ARW
wrote:

"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 21:06:07 +0100, ARW
wrote:

"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news A woman just told me she had her house rewired because it hadn't been
done
for 30 years. Have you ever bothered? I mean if it works, why not
just
leave it? Wire doesn't rot.


30 years seems short time for a rewire unless there is also a major
refurb
going on.

I've always heard 25-30 years stated as the recommended rewiring
schedule.
She was refurbishing the house BECAUSE it had just been rewired,
leaving a
mess.


Don't listen to small talk.

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified.

Most women are 'horrified' about the things that blokes take for
granted, like :-

Non-fluffy towels
Pampas green bathroom suites
Free standing fridges (as opposed to built-in)
Effective Baxi Bermuda back boilers with radiant fire in front
Single glazing in otherwise sound, well painted windows.
Vauxhall Astras

I have all the above, except for the back-boiler, and that only went
because the twots that built the house in 1976 threw all the cement
snots inside the cavity walls and even inside the class 2 flue blocks.

The only 'problem' with houses built with modern PVC wiring but before
1984, is that the CPC is only 1mm. After 1984 it was 1.5mm. With
rewireable fuses this (AFAIK) extends the cut-off time before the fuse
blows after a serious fault. But there are fault conditions that will
still kill but not blow the fuse. RCD's together with equipotential
bonding will prvent this. Fitting MCB's on their own, in place of
rewireable fuses will not save lives. In fact in densely occupied areas
like central London the capacitance(??) in the supply system can melt
cheaper MCB's before they can cut off.

In article ,
charles wrote:
Why can't you move the meters yourself? If it's anything like mine,
there's a 100A fuse before the meter, which you can pull out while you
move the meter.

They should be sealed in place with a security tag which you break at
your peril.

I've done this a few times over the years with no problems. There might
well be if your electricity consumption suddenly drop to zero, though.

--
*How about "never"? Is "never" good for you?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 21/10/2014 23:50, GB wrote:
On 21/10/2014 23:49, GB wrote:
On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote:

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a house I'm
letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.


I should have said that the trip switches are just a plug in
replacement, so it's very easy to do.
And any professional sparky reading this will say that this is a
pointless exercise, and in the case of the Wylex variety are actually
more dangerous (under certain conditions) than the rewireable fuse they
replaced.

Upgraded earth bonding and RCD's are what saves lives, not silly plug-in
MCBs

In article ,
harryagain wrote:
Fuse wire will carry four times the rated load for around half an hour
before melting.

Where on earth did you find that bit of nonsense? More like a second at
twice the rated current.

--
*What am I? Flypaper for freaks!?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Uncle Peter wrote:
The trouble with breakers is you get a lot of nuisance trips. A lot of
things might use 4 times the rated load for a bit.

Then use the correct breaker. There are varieties available to allow for a
switch on surge.

--
*DOES THE LITTLE MERMAID WEAR AN ALGEBRA?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:04:44 AM UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
Most women are 'horrified' about the things that blokes take for
granted, like :-
Effective Baxi Bermuda back boilers with radiant fire in front

I was delighted to get rid of a Baxi Buggerit back boiler and fire and replace it with bookshelves.

Women also seem to object to wiring looms in neat horizontal and vertical runs, but happy to have bibelots in random patterns over every horizontal surface.

Owain

On 22/10/14 11:09, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
harryagain wrote:
Fuse wire will carry four times the rated load for around half an hour
before melting.

Where on earth did you find that bit of nonsense? More like a second at
twice the rated current.


60-100 seconds:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/f/fc/Curve-BS3036.png

On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 9:54:30 AM UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news

A lot of things might use 4 times the rated load for a bit.

**** all do in fact.

Quite; motors, filament lights, halogen lighting, transformers, diode/cap input PSUs such as computers, wallwarts etc, none of these things exist.

Doesn't explain why there has been a big drop in electrical fires.
Corse that may be due to the much better insulation used now.

PVC cable insulation hasn't changed since it was introduced over half a century ago.


NT

Where on earth did you find that bit of nonsense? More like a second
at twice the rated current.

While I agree Harry's claim was nonsense I think semi-enclosed fuses to
BS3036 are a bit slower than that: AIUI four times the rated current
should blow in less than 1 second; twice the rated current in about 100.
See eg
http://www.aboutelectricity.co.uk/im...rve-bs3036.png or
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Figures/3.13b.gif



--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 10:50:58 +0100, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Nowadays, rooms will often have 12 lights, as many as 10 sockets (and
nearly all doubles, not singles), with a cluster around the expected
position of the entertainment centre. This is a far cry from a 1950's
home, which although the wiring is probably fine if not abused over the
years, original accessories will be well aging, and insufficient sockets
if not expanded over the years.

Most people just buy a 6 way strip to sit behind the TV. TV, DVD, etc use nothing like 13 amps.

I have a fully-populated 12-way plugged into a single socket behind the
equipment rack. I've never taken the trouble to work out the loading
because it's obviously, as you say, nothing like 13 amps.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

On 22/10/2014 11:06, Andrew wrote:
On 21/10/2014 23:50, GB wrote:
On 21/10/2014 23:49, GB wrote:
On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote:

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a house I'm
letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.


I should have said that the trip switches are just a plug in
replacement, so it's very easy to do.

And any professional sparky reading this will say that this is a
pointless exercise, and in the case of the Wylex variety are actually
more dangerous (under certain conditions) than the rewireable fuse they
replaced.

Upgraded earth bonding and RCD's are what saves lives, not silly plug-in
MCBs

It's not intended to save lives. It's intended to stop the tenants
calling me up in the middle of the night when they blow a fuse.

I agree that an RCD would be good. That's the next change on the list.

On 22/10/2014 10:54, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 09:56:42 +0100, GB wrote:

On 22/10/2014 04:17, Rod Speed wrote:
Uncle Peter wrote
GB wrote
On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a house I'm
letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.

Why is it simpler?

You just push the lever instead of finding some fuse wire and rewiring
the fuse.

Can you imagine a tenant doing this? More likely to ring the landlord in
the middle of the night.

Because they don't know how to push a switch?

Whooooooosh! The whole point is that they do know how to push a switch.

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
On 22/10/14 11:09, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
harryagain wrote:
Fuse wire will carry four times the rated load for around half an hour
before melting.

Where on earth did you find that bit of nonsense? More like a second at
twice the rated current.


60-100 seconds:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/f/fc/Curve-BS3036.png

Right. So about a second at four times the rated loading. Not quite half
an hour.

--
*The more I learn about women, the more I love my car

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Uncle Peter wrote:
A woman just told me she had her house rewired because it hadn't been
done for 30 years. Have you ever bothered? I mean if it works, why not
just leave it? Wire doesn't rot.

This one does,
http://www.recalls.gov.au/content/it...l%20Notice.pdf

On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:29:53 AM UTC+1, wrote:
PVC cable insulation hasn't changed since it was introduced over
half a century ago.

It's not available in white anymore :-(

Owain

Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 11:36:17 +0100, Mike Barnes wrote:

Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 10:50:58 +0100, Andrew Gabriel
wrote:
Nowadays, rooms will often have 12 lights, as many as 10 sockets (and
nearly all doubles, not singles), with a cluster around the expected
position of the entertainment centre. This is a far cry from a 1950's
home, which although the wiring is probably fine if not abused over
the years, original accessories will be well aging, and insufficient
sockets if not expanded over the years.

Most people just buy a 6 way strip to sit behind the TV. TV, DVD, etc
use nothing like 13 amps.

I have a fully-populated 12-way plugged into a single socket behind the
equipment rack. I've never taken the trouble to work out the loading
because it's obviously, as you say, nothing like 13 amps.

I've made all our inaccessible sockets accessible by plugging 4-way
(individually switched) trailing extension leads in, and hiding under the
offending furniture when not in use. Makes hoovering 10x easier

Hoovering? Not much chance of that here. :-)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vkqc2dpruffjyu3/wires.jpg

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

On Tuesday, 21 October 2014 20:26:00 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
On 21/10/2014 20:13, Uncle Peter wrote:



A woman just told me she had her house rewired because it hadn't been

done for 30 years. Have you ever bothered? I mean if it works, why not

just leave it? Wire doesn't rot.



The copper wire might not but the insulation around it certainly does -

Yes, and the rated lifetime of PVC cable is only 20 years - when run 24/7 at max load, and at rated ambient temperature. Unsurprisingly, it lasts quite a lot longer in normal conditions.

http://www.basec.org.uk/News/Basec-N...ancy-of-Cables

I replaced my old fuse board with a new CU/RCD/MCBS a few years ago. The wiring was nearly 30 years old, the IR was fine, and there were only two things wrong: a broken ring main CPC, due to a loose terminal in a socket (had probably never been done properly), and the undersized CPC - it was 1mm, which happens to be fine with MCBs, but doesn't satisfy the adiabatic eqn with rewirables.

That's the wire. I replaced plenty of socket fascias.

On 22/10/2014 11:04, Andrew wrote:

because the twots that built the house in 1976 threw all the cement

Interesting word choice. I believe USians pronounce **** twot (like
swat). Based on that, or just trying to do the equivalent of f**k?

(not a sneer, I actually do find this sort of thing interesting :-) )

On 22/10/2014 14:10, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:29:53 AM UTC+1, wrote:
PVC cable insulation hasn't changed since it was introduced over
half a century ago.

It's not available in white anymore :-(

and the type that precipitates green goo is also less popular!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/

On 22/10/2014 11:44, GB wrote:

It's not intended to save lives. It's intended to stop the tenants
calling me up in the middle of the night when they blow a fuse.

I agree that an RCD would be good. That's the next change on the list.


If something blows a fuse then you need to find out why!
They tend not to trip as easy as mcbs.

On 22/10/2014 08:24, harryagain wrote:

Fuse wire will carry four times the rated load for around half an hour
before melting.

twaddle.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
wrote:
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:29:53 AM UTC+1, wrote:
PVC cable insulation hasn't changed since it was introduced over
half a century ago.

It's not available in white anymore :-(

TLC have it in their catalogue, although listed as low smoke. Perhaps
that's the standard. It's about 45% more tha the grey.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 22/10/2014 15:05, wrote:

undersized CPC - it was 1mm, which happens to be fine with MCBs, but
doesn't satisfy the adiabatic eqn with rewirables.

only a problem on spurs, or 2.5mm^2 branches from 4.00mm^2 radials.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/

On 22/10/2014 11:06, Andrew wrote:
On 21/10/2014 23:50, GB wrote:
On 21/10/2014 23:49, GB wrote:
On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote:

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a house I'm
letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.


I should have said that the trip switches are just a plug in
replacement, so it's very easy to do.
And any professional sparky reading this will say that this is a
pointless exercise, and in the case of the Wylex variety are actually
more dangerous (under certain conditions) than the rewireable fuse they
replaced.

The main reason that rewireables are deprecated for tenanted properties
is that they allow the unskilled and otherwise less caring of the
properties wellbeing alter the rating of the fuses.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 22/10/2014 00:39, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 00:33:04 +0100, GB wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:57, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 23:49:01 +0100, GB wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote:

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a house I'm
letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.

Why is it simpler? Fuses hardly ever blow, unlike some breakers....


See if you can work it out.

It isn't simpler, that's the answer.

Try this as a thought experiment:

Its 11pm, your tenant has just rang to say they turned the hall light
on, and now all the lights have gone out. You have a choice of talking a
technically clueless person through:

1) Finding the circuit breaker with the popped out button, and telling
them to push it

or

2) pulling out a fuse carrier, finding a screwdriver, finding some fuse
wire, get them to work out which is the 5A, now talk them through wiring
the carrier (in the dark), and replacing the fuse.

I would contest that 1 is far simpler for all involved.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 22/10/2014 13:33, F Murtz wrote:
Uncle Peter wrote:
A woman just told me she had her house rewired because it hadn't
been done for 30 years. Have you ever bothered? I mean if it
works, why not just leave it? Wire doesn't rot.

This one does,
http://www.recalls.gov.au/content/it...l%20Notice.pdf

You have to smile at the mastery of understatement that comes with
instructions like:

"Do not use the cable. Discontinue use immediately and return the
product to the place of purchase for a full refund or replacement. "

Especially if its been chopped into lots of bits, installed and covered
over and to make matters worse you can't easily identify which bits are
this stuff, or another unaffected brand.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 22/10/2014 18:04, John Rumm wrote:
On 22/10/2014 00:39, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 00:33:04 +0100, GB wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:57, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 23:49:01 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote:

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a house I'm
letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.

Why is it simpler? Fuses hardly ever blow, unlike some breakers....


See if you can work it out.

It isn't simpler, that's the answer.

Try this as a thought experiment:

Its 11pm, your tenant has just rang to say they turned the hall light
on, and now all the lights have gone out. You have a choice of talking a
technically clueless person through:

1) Finding the circuit breaker with the popped out button, and telling
them to push it

or

2) pulling out a fuse carrier, finding a screwdriver, finding some fuse
wire, get them to work out which is the 5A, now talk them through wiring
the carrier (in the dark), and replacing the fuse.

I would contest that 1 is far simpler for all involved.


My honest opinion is that Uncle Peter cannot be as incredibly stupid as
he makes out. He's bored and lonely. So, he sits at home and trolls on
Usenet.

GB wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
GB wrote
On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a
house I'm letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.

Why is it simpler?

You just push the lever instead of finding
some fuse wire and rewiring the fuse.

Can you imagine a tenant doing this?

Yes, I did that when I was a tenant.

More likely to ring the landlord in the middle of the night.

Assuming they have a number to ring.

Yes, breakers make a lot more sense for both rental
accommodation and your own house etc, just because
a lot more people can handle breakers and it's a lot
easier to just flip the breaker if it does end up tripping
as bulb fails etc.

Fuses hardly ever blow,

True.

unlike some breakers....

None of my plug in breakers that go where
the fuse wire holder goes has ever blown.

I have had a few trips due to a bulb failing and
had a few fuses go before I replaced them all
with plug in breakers.

Andrew Gabriel wrote
Uncle Peter wrote

A woman just told me she had her house rewired because
it hadn't been done for 30 years. Have you ever bothered?
I mean if it works, why not just leave it? Wire doesn't rot.

Cable:

At 30 years old, it will be PVC cable.
Life of PVC cable depends on running temperature. At max
running temperature (70C), life is estimated at 22 years.

I doubt any of mine have ever got anything like that even
with the stuff that runs in the very hot roofspace. 50C maybe.

However, at room temperature, standard PVC cable life
is estimated at just over 1000 years, and most cables in
a home spend most of their time at room temperature.

That's not true of the stuff in the roofspace.

Accessories:

Wiring accessories (sockets, switches, consumer units, lampholders,
etc) generally have a life of around 30 years. That's not to say they'll
all die at 30 years old, but the first ones will start deteriorating by
then,

None of mine have and they are all over 40 years old now.

and you should consider an extensive inspection of them
all to ensure any are replaced before they become unsafe.

That is a separate issue to rewiring.

You might take the opportunity to change all the sockets and
switches to a more current design, and so they all still match.

Accessories which handle high currents (such as electric showers, hobs,
immersion heaters, etc) can age much more quickly, and in the process,
can generate local heating at the cable terminations which rapidly ages
the cable there too. These should be checked more often and high
quality versions chosen to give best life of the installation as a whole.

Don't get that with any of mine and its an all electric house too, no gas.

Design:

The design of a wiring installation will become
outdated as it increasingly fails to meet current needs.

I designed mine right in the first place. The most I have
done is screw some 8 or 16 outlet plug boards to the
wall in some places like on the kitchen benches now
that we have a lot more plug in electrical devices like
bread machines, microwave ovens, convection ovens,
frypans, etc etc etc than we did when I designed it
45 years ago.

I still have the wall oven plugged into a power point
just because I can't be arsed to wire it in properly.

In my parents' 1950's home

That's a lot more than the 30 years being discussed.

(which was wired with a ring circuit and 13A sockets, fortunately),
the standard was one socket per room, with 2 in the kitchen. They
had to pay £1 for any extra sockets installed during the build
(they paid for 2 extra in the living room).

In early 1960's, the Parker Morris report on standards in council housing
was published, and recommended an increase on things like sockets.
Although it only applied to council housing, the result was that council
houses of the early 1960's were better quality than most new private
occupier houses of the time, and the whole housing industry quickly
adopted much of the Parker Morris report in order to catch up.

Nowadays, rooms will often have 12 lights, as many as 10
sockets (and nearly all doubles, not singles), with a cluster
around the expected position of the entertainment centre.

Its better to have a plug board in the entertainment
center and plug that into the wall socket.

This is a far cry from a 1950's home, which although
the wiring is probably fine if not abused over the years,
original accessories will be well aging, and insufficient
sockets if not expanded over the years.

So there is no one answer. It depends...

That original 30 year rewiring question doesn't.

The only time that would be warranted is after a fire.

Not usually even after a flood.

Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
GB wrote
On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a
house I'm letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.

Why is it simpler?

You just push the lever instead of finding
some fuse wire and rewiring the fuse.

Fuses hardly ever blow,

True.

unlike some breakers....

None of my plug in breakers that go where
the fuse wire holder goes has ever blown.

Yet above you're saying how convenient they are.

I said blown, not tripped.

I have had a few trips and fuses blow when a PAR38
has blown on turn on and blown the fuse or tripped
the breaker.

Tim Streater wrote
Uncle Peter wrote

Most people just buy a 6 way strip to sit behind the TV. TV, DVD, etc use
nothing like 13 amps.

I just had the sparks add four double-sockets behind where the TV etc sit.

More fool you.

Then I got rid of the 6 way strip and the adapter. Much tidier.

Much tidier to have the strip inside whatever the
electronics is in and a single lead to the wall socket.

In spades with the computer, its got 3 16 way strips.

On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:15:15 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 22/10/2014 13:33, F Murtz wrote:
Uncle Peter wrote:
A woman just told me she had her house rewired because it hadn't
been done for 30 years. Have you ever bothered? I mean if it
works, why not just leave it? Wire doesn't rot.

This one does,
http://www.recalls.gov.au/content/it...l%20Notice.pdf

You have to smile at the mastery of understatement that comes with
instructions like:

"Do not use the cable. Discontinue use immediately and return the
product to the place of purchase for a full refund or replacement. "

Especially if its been chopped into lots of bits, installed and covered
over and to make matters worse you can't easily identify which bits are
this stuff, or another unaffected brand.

Or you could just ignore it since it has words like "possibly" and "potential".

--
Lysdexia: a peech imspediment we live to learn with...

On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:15:15 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 22/10/2014 13:33, F Murtz wrote:
Uncle Peter wrote:
A woman just told me she had her house rewired because it hadn't
been done for 30 years. Have you ever bothered? I mean if it
works, why not just leave it? Wire doesn't rot.

This one does,
http://www.recalls.gov.au/content/it...l%20Notice.pdf

You have to smile at the mastery of understatement that comes with
instructions like:

"Do not use the cable. Discontinue use immediately and return the
product to the place of purchase for a full refund or replacement. "

Especially if its been chopped into lots of bits, installed and covered
over and to make matters worse you can't easily identify which bits are
this stuff, or another unaffected brand.

Or you could just ignore it since it has words like "possibly" and "potential".

--
Lysdexia: a peech imspediment we live to learn with...

On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:04:30 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 22/10/2014 00:39, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 00:33:04 +0100, GB wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:57, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 23:49:01 +0100, GB wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote:

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a house I'm
letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.

Why is it simpler? Fuses hardly ever blow, unlike some breakers....


See if you can work it out.

It isn't simpler, that's the answer.

Try this as a thought experiment:

Its 11pm, your tenant has just rang to say they turned the hall light
on, and now all the lights have gone out. You have a choice of talking a
technically clueless person through:

1) Finding the circuit breaker with the popped out button, and telling
them to push it

or

2) pulling out a fuse carrier, finding a screwdriver, finding some fuse
wire, get them to work out which is the 5A, now talk them through wiring
the carrier (in the dark), and replacing the fuse.

I would contest that 1 is far simpler for all involved.

3) Tell the tenant that landlords are not nannies and they need to work it out for themselves, then ask if they're going to phone to ask if their milk is still drinkable next, or how to change the baby's nappy.

--
Why do tourists go to the top of tall buildings and then put money in telescopes so they can see things on the ground in close-up?

On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:04:30 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 22/10/2014 00:39, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 00:33:04 +0100, GB wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:57, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 23:49:01 +0100, GB wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote:

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a house I'm
letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.

Why is it simpler? Fuses hardly ever blow, unlike some breakers....


See if you can work it out.

It isn't simpler, that's the answer.

Try this as a thought experiment:

Its 11pm, your tenant has just rang to say they turned the hall light
on, and now all the lights have gone out. You have a choice of talking a
technically clueless person through:

1) Finding the circuit breaker with the popped out button, and telling
them to push it

or

2) pulling out a fuse carrier, finding a screwdriver, finding some fuse
wire, get them to work out which is the 5A, now talk them through wiring
the carrier (in the dark), and replacing the fuse.

I would contest that 1 is far simpler for all involved.

3) Tell the tenant that landlords are not nannies and they need to work it out for themselves, then ask if they're going to phone to ask if their milk is still drinkable next, or how to change the baby's nappy.

--
Why do tourists go to the top of tall buildings and then put money in telescopes so they can see things on the ground in close-up?

On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 17:59:11 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 22/10/2014 11:06, Andrew wrote:
On 21/10/2014 23:50, GB wrote:
On 21/10/2014 23:49, GB wrote:
On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote:

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified..

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a house I'm
letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.


I should have said that the trip switches are just a plug in
replacement, so it's very easy to do.
And any professional sparky reading this will say that this is a
pointless exercise, and in the case of the Wylex variety are actually
more dangerous (under certain conditions) than the rewireable fuse they
replaced.

The main reason that rewireables are deprecated for tenanted properties
is that they allow the unskilled and otherwise less caring of the
properties wellbeing alter the rating of the fuses.

From rentals I've seen, changing the fuses is the least of the landlord's problems. Most rentals need about £2K of doing up after each tenant moves out (or runs off without paying rent).

--
The only differences between lawyers and prostitutes are that prostitutes are generally better looking and more honest about how they make a living.

On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 17:59:11 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 22/10/2014 11:06, Andrew wrote:
On 21/10/2014 23:50, GB wrote:
On 21/10/2014 23:49, GB wrote:
On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote:

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified..

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a house I'm
letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.


I should have said that the trip switches are just a plug in
replacement, so it's very easy to do.
And any professional sparky reading this will say that this is a
pointless exercise, and in the case of the Wylex variety are actually
more dangerous (under certain conditions) than the rewireable fuse they
replaced.

The main reason that rewireables are deprecated for tenanted properties
is that they allow the unskilled and otherwise less caring of the
properties wellbeing alter the rating of the fuses.

From rentals I've seen, changing the fuses is the least of the landlord's problems. Most rentals need about £2K of doing up after each tenant moves out (or runs off without paying rent).

--
The only differences between lawyers and prostitutes are that prostitutes are generally better looking and more honest about how they make a living.