Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Uncle Peter wrote

It might trip if overloaded, which
is its purpose. As a fuse will blow.

But they're too sensitive to transients like bulk capacitors.

Then use the correct one.

They're against the regs.

Bull****.

Post a link or STFU.

YOU made that claim.

YOU get to post the link.

THAT'S how it works.

It isnt even possible to post a link to what doesn't exist.

You made the claim that they don't exist,

AFTER you claimed they did.

you do the work.

Not even possible with something that doesn't exist.

You can show the regs that aren't what I say they are.
There will of course be regs of some sort.

YOU made that claim.

YOU get to post the link.

THAT'S how it works.

On 23/10/2014 09:20, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 08:26:51 +0100, harryagain
wrote:


"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 08:24:18 +0100, harryagain
wrote:


"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 21:54:04 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 21/10/2014 20:34, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 20:26:00 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 21/10/2014 20:13, Uncle Peter wrote:

A woman just told me she had her house rewired because it hadn't
been
done for 30 years. Have you ever bothered? I mean if it
works, why
not
just leave it? Wire doesn't rot.

The copper wire might not but the insulation around it certainly
does -
especially if there is some ozone about.

What ozone source are you referring to?

Take a look at what happens to
Post Office rubber bands after a year or so and then worry about
it!

That might apply to flex, but my house wiring (twin and earth etc)
doesn't seem to go the same way.

If you are still on prehistoric round pin plugs and wire fuses then
it
is probably time for a rewiring by now.

Nope, 1979 wiring. Wire fuses and square 13A sockets. I prefer
wire
fuses as they aren't over-sensitive. The only circuit beakers I got
(plug in type in place of the consumer unit fuses) was for the
lighting
circuits, as a blown halogen bulb could damage a PIR sensor
before the
fuse blew.

There is also the risk of rodents sharpening their teeth on your
wiring
with accumulating damage until they bridge live and neutral. But
that
can happen to modern wiring sometimes if you are very unlucky.

I've had rodents in the house a few times, but they've never gone
for
wires, only things like cushions and poly bags. If they did it
should
blow a fuse, or the rat.

You might find sockets are a bit thin on the ground by modern
standards,

Adapters and 4 way strips suit me just fine. Or a couple of extra
sockets
can be added without changing the whole house.

and "consumer units" have changed and improved; fuse wire is a bit
dated
to my mind.

It performs precisely the same function.

Any "trip units" can deteriorate with age. More powerful
electric showers are now available, needing circuits 30 amp.

Why would I want that? The original electric showers work just fine.
There is no need for more power. If I did want one, that's one
wire to
the CU, not the whole house needing redone.


Miniature Circuit Breakers provide a much closer degree of protection
compared with fuse wire.
Fuse wire will carry four times the rated load for around half an hour
before melting.
Long enough to start a fire.

The trouble with breakers is you get a lot of nuisance trips. A lot of
things might use 4 times the rated load for a bit.

Since MCBs appeared, electrical fault-fires have reduced by 90% so they
are
hugely more safe.
They are designed to be failsafe.

PVC/polythene wire does not deteriorate as long as not subjected to
strong
sunlight.
Switches and other hardware does but is easily changed.

The remaining source of fires is mainly mechanical damage of various
forms.
Rodent chewing wires, people drillling holes in walls etc.

Wouldn't you notice if you drilled through a wire?

And flexes running along/under flammable things like carpets and
curtains.

CFL are less likely to start a fire as they run cooler.

Hmmmmm..... I always thought the quick tripping was for electric shock
safety only. And that fires were normally from shorts which tend to
break
a fuse just as well as a breaker. And that the fires that didn't
trip/blow the breaker/fuse were not carrying more than the circuit's
rated
current.

There are special MCBs that are rated for motors.

Why should you have to work out where you're going to plug in what and
fit the right breakers? What a nuisance.

You don't. Motor rated MCBs (Types C & D) are specified by the circuit
designer when protecting large fixed motors (typically induction
motors). A large induction motor's inrush will pop a fuse just as easily
as an unsuitable MCB.

I never have nuisance MCB trips.
I do have nuisance RCD trips.

Then fix the faulty installation or design, not the symptom.

QED, it's why I have no RCDs in the house.

No, that is because you are an imbecile.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 23/10/2014 12:30, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 01:46:36 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 23/10/2014 00:28, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 19:49:12 +0100, ARW
wrote:

"GB" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2014 11:06, Andrew wrote:
On 21/10/2014 23:50, GB wrote:
On 21/10/2014 23:49, GB wrote:
On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote:

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was
horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a house I'm
letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.


I should have said that the trip switches are just a plug in
replacement, so it's very easy to do.

And any professional sparky reading this will say that this is a
pointless exercise, and in the case of the Wylex variety are actually
more dangerous (under certain conditions) than the rewireable fuse
they
replaced.

Upgraded earth bonding and RCD's are what saves lives, not silly
plug-in
MCBs

It's not intended to save lives. It's intended to stop the tenants
calling
me up in the middle of the night when they blow a fuse.

I agree that an RCD would be good. That's the next change on the list.


Is that as a CU swap or just adding RCD protection to the socket
circuits? I
am sure that you are aware that a fusebox to CU swap can in some cases
open
a can of worms.

Like?

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ial _pitfalls


"Nuisance trips. Compared to fuses, modern MCBs react more quickly to
very short term overloads, and may result in loss of power to a whole
lighting circuit when a bulb blows."

Which is what I was saying earlier but nobody believed me.

Fit a type C MCB to lighting circuits and it becomes a non issue.

I have also seen mains halogen GU10 lamps fail and take out a BS3036
rewireable every time - so its not a problem fuses are immune to.

"Discrimination: it can be harder to ensure that the circuit protective
device nearest to a fault will be the only one to open when you have
cascaded MCBs - sometimes upstream fuses interoperate better with
downstream MCBs"

Why on earth would you cascade them?

When feeding a submain to another CU typically - an outbuilding, or
garage etc.

"Extra work: Fitting a CU with RCD can often result in the installation
not working initially due to hitherto unnoticed faults in circuits such
as a borrowed neutral or higher than expected earth leakage. While
discovering these faults is not a bad thing, it can force the
investigation and repair of a number of other issues not directly
related to the original task planned, causing unexpected cost and delay."

Agreed, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

More correctly it was broke, but you were previously unaware.

There are plenty of positive reasons for changing consumer units:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ns_t o_change





--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/

FFS PHucker, get a room and take bull**** Wodney with you.

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:52:33 PM UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
charles wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Streater wrote
Uncle Peter wrote

They are sold in varying spacings, FACT.

None of them allow the biggest wallwarts in every socket, FACT.

You sure know how to be a fool

On 23/10/2014 12:05, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 01:18:45 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 22/10/2014 19:42, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:04:30 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 22/10/2014 00:39, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 00:33:04 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:57, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 23:49:01 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote:

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was
horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a house I'm
letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.

Why is it simpler? Fuses hardly ever blow, unlike some breakers....


See if you can work it out.

It isn't simpler, that's the answer.

Try this as a thought experiment:

Its 11pm, your tenant has just rang to say they turned the hall light
on, and now all the lights have gone out. You have a choice of
talking a
technically clueless person through:

1) Finding the circuit breaker with the popped out button, and telling
them to push it

or

2) pulling out a fuse carrier, finding a screwdriver, finding some fuse
wire, get them to work out which is the 5A, now talk them through
wiring
the carrier (in the dark), and replacing the fuse.

I would contest that 1 is far simpler for all involved.

3) Tell the tenant that landlords are not nannies and they need to work
it out for themselves, then ask if they're going to phone to ask if
their milk is still drinkable next, or how to change the baby's nappy.

Which results in you the landlord getting a bill for the emergency
electrician the tenant called when they discovered the landlord was
acting like a childish prick.

You don't need an electrician to change a fuse or push a circuit
breaker.

And there is the key point. You probably don't need them to reset a
circuit breaker. However you may well need one to safely rewire a fuse
these days.

That would be like calling an electrician to change a
lightbulb. The tenant should pay of course, for being an ignoramus.

So as owner of the property, what you are saying is that when a
rewireable fuse pops, you would like someone with no understanding even
of how to change a plug, to be let loose on your property making it up
as they go along. Brave decision.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 23/10/2014 12:02, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 10:55:11 +0100, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Uncle Peter wrote:
It might trip if overloaded, which is its
purpose. As a fuse will blow.

But they're too sensitive to transients like bulk capacitors.

Then use the correct one.

They're against the regs.

Why do you keep making these daft claims?

There are three types of Miniature Circuit Breaker, denoted as type B,
C, & D.

A circuit designer is free to choose whichever is appropriate for the
circuit.

A "normal" type B breaker will have a nominal trip current, which is
provided by a thermal mechanism (i.e. like a fuse), and a fast acting
magnetic trip mechanism for clearing "fault" currents (i.e. overloads
many times the nominal rating).

All the different types of a given nominal rating will have the same
thermal response characteristic.

Since inrush currents can "look" like momentary faults even a type B
breaker will tolerate short duration loads of 3 to 5 x its nominal
rating before tripping.

A type C will allow 5 - 10x, and a type D up to 10 - 20x its nominal
rating.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ypes_B.2CC.2CD

The designer should choose the appropriate one for the circuit. So if
you are switching a large bank of strip lights with magnetic ballasts,
then a Type C will be more sensible than a B. For circuit with a 5kW
blower motor, a type D may be more appropriate.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 23/10/2014 12:29, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 12:15:08 +0100, charles
wrote:

In article ,
Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 10:55:11 +0100, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Uncle Peter wrote:
It might trip if overloaded, which is its
purpose. As a fuse will blow.

But they're too sensitive to transients like bulk capacitors.

Then use the correct one.

They're against the regs.

Do tell us which ones.

In a school there are more regs.

BS7671 covers schools as well as domestic property.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 23/10/2014 07:44, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 07:30:06 +0100, charles wrote:

In article , Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 19:36:08 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

Tim Streater wrote
Uncle Peter wrote

Most people just buy a 6 way strip to sit behind the TV. TV, DVD,
etc use nothing like 13 amps.

I just had the sparks add four double-sockets behind where the TV
etc sit.

More fool you.

Then I got rid of the 6 way strip and the adapter. Much tidier.

Much tidier to have the strip inside whatever the electronics is in
and a single lead to the wall socket.

In spades with the computer, its got 3 16 way strips.

What in god's name have you got plugged in there? I've got two
monitors,
two printers, a computer, an amplifier, a telephone, and a portable
hard disk for backup.

3 computers, 2 printers, label printer, monitor, scanner, 1 network
router,
1 network hub, 1 printer server, desk lamp, telephone. 12 here.

Think you have problems?

8 computers, 1 telephone, 2 printers, 1 scanner, 2 monitors, 2 switches,
1 router, 1 ATA, 1 PSU for front door control system. And a couple spare
for laptop chargers, battery charger, etc.

Pah, lightweight ;-)

I just counted about 42 sockets in use in my office.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 23/10/2014 12:29, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 12:15:08 +0100, charles
wrote:

In article ,
Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 10:55:11 +0100, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Uncle Peter wrote:
It might trip if overloaded, which is its
purpose. As a fuse will blow.

But they're too sensitive to transients like bulk capacitors.

Then use the correct one.

They're against the regs.

Do tell us which ones.

In a school there are more regs.

BS7671 covers schools as well as domestic property.

but some LEAs have their own regulations over and above the national ones.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 23/10/2014 14:46, charles wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 23/10/2014 12:29, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 12:15:08 +0100, charles
wrote:

In article ,
Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 10:55:11 +0100, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Uncle Peter wrote:
It might trip if overloaded, which is its
purpose. As a fuse will blow.

But they're too sensitive to transients like bulk capacitors.

Then use the correct one.

They're against the regs.

Do tell us which ones.

In a school there are more regs.

BS7671 covers schools as well as domestic property.

but some LEAs have their own regulations over and above the national ones.

Indeed, but generally not under and below... i.e. a LEA should not be
able to override BS7671 with a lower standard.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
harryagain wrote:
Fuse wire will carry four times the rated load for around half an hour
before melting.

Where on earth did you find that bit of nonsense? More like a second at
twice the rated current.

That is for cartridge fuses.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

So as owner of the property, what you are saying is that when a rewireable
fuse pops, you would like someone with no understanding even of how to
change a plug, to be let loose on your property making it up as they go
along. Brave decision.

I suppose it could be worse and they could end up having one of my
apprentices do the work.

--
Adam

On 22/10/2014 19:49, ARW wrote:

I agree that an RCD would be good. That's the next change on the list.


Is that as a CU swap or just adding RCD protection to the socket
circuits? I am sure that you are aware that a fusebox to CU swap can in
some cases open a can of worms.


I had not realised just what a can of worms it can open up, but I have
now read the wiki. The electricians who are dealing with this
recommended just changing over the fuses, whilst I had expected them to
suggest a new consumer unit. I can see why, now.

On 23/10/2014 01:24, John Rumm wrote:

My honest opinion is that Uncle Peter cannot be as incredibly stupid as
he makes out.

Indeed that would take a special talent ;-)

He's bored and lonely. So, he sits at home and trolls on
Usenet.

Well it keeps him off the streets.


In-of-the-deed. (As we say in my family, unfortunately.) It is all
pretty harmless stuff, and it evidently provides him with entertainment.
However, once I understood what he is up to, I stopped bothering to
provide rational explanations. That is taking the entertainment a bit
too far, and he is clearly not interested in the answers.

"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
harryagain wrote:
Fuse wire will carry four times the rated load for around half an hour
before melting.

Where on earth did you find that bit of nonsense? More like a second at
twice the rated current.

That is for cartridge fuses.

Which ones? Cause it ain't BS88 or BS1361 fuses



--
Adam

On 23/10/14 17:41, ARW wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

So as owner of the property, what you are saying is that when a
rewireable fuse pops, you would like someone with no understanding
even of how to change a plug, to be let loose on your property making
it up as they go along. Brave decision.

I suppose it could be worse and they could end up having one of my
apprentices do the work.


They could have me. It would be nice.


In about 3 years...

On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 14:07:14 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 23/10/2014 12:05, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 01:18:45 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 22/10/2014 19:42, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:04:30 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 22/10/2014 00:39, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 00:33:04 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:57, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 23:49:01 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote:

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was
horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a house I'm
letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.

Why is it simpler? Fuses hardly ever blow, unlike some breakers....


See if you can work it out.

It isn't simpler, that's the answer.

Try this as a thought experiment:

Its 11pm, your tenant has just rang to say they turned the hall light
on, and now all the lights have gone out. You have a choice of
talking a
technically clueless person through:

1) Finding the circuit breaker with the popped out button, and telling
them to push it

or

2) pulling out a fuse carrier, finding a screwdriver, finding some fuse
wire, get them to work out which is the 5A, now talk them through
wiring
the carrier (in the dark), and replacing the fuse.

I would contest that 1 is far simpler for all involved.

3) Tell the tenant that landlords are not nannies and they need to work
it out for themselves, then ask if they're going to phone to ask if
their milk is still drinkable next, or how to change the baby's nappy.

Which results in you the landlord getting a bill for the emergency
electrician the tenant called when they discovered the landlord was
acting like a childish prick.

You don't need an electrician to change a fuse or push a circuit
breaker.

And there is the key point. You probably don't need them to reset a
circuit breaker. However you may well need one to safely rewire a fuse
these days.

It's hardly rocket science. It's easier than wiring a plug.

That would be like calling an electrician to change a
lightbulb. The tenant should pay of course, for being an ignoramus.

So as owner of the property, what you are saying is that when a
rewireable fuse pops, you would like someone with no understanding even
of how to change a plug, to be let loose on your property making it up
as they go along. Brave decision.

Like I said, it's not rocket science. If they're intelligent enough to read and write, they can rewire a fuse.

--
Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake!

"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news

Like I said, it's not rocket science. If they're intelligent enough to
read and write, they can rewire a fuse.

Get a reality check.

Here is a small list of customers that can read and write. I have worked
for them I would not trust them to correctly change a fuse - this list only
includes one person in that profession and I do not claim that everyone in
that profession cannot change a fuse. It also includes some what they have
said to me.

Teachers (not Geography teachers for some reason). Never let an English
teacher do any DIY
Duty Solicitor (sorry to keep you waiting in the cells I ran out of petrol
on the motorway and I forgot my credit cards)
Surgeon (yes I can do heart surgery but electrics are not my strong point)
Prison Officers (although he did make a good comment about Dennis Nilsen)
Armed police officer (how do you know which cables are live)
Lawyer (I could do it but myself you are £300 per hour cheaper than me) I am
sure he was lying.
Football captain (he had a calendar on his wall showing the days he scored -
but his team were not playing on some of those days)







--
Adam

On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 20:58:03 +0100, ARW wrote:

"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news

Like I said, it's not rocket science. If they're intelligent enough to
read and write, they can rewire a fuse.

Get a reality check.

Here is a small list of customers that can read and write. I have worked
for them I would not trust them to correctly change a fuse - this list only
includes one person in that profession and I do not claim that everyone in
that profession cannot change a fuse. It also includes some what they have
said to me.

Teachers (not Geography teachers for some reason). Never let an English
teacher do any DIY
Duty Solicitor (sorry to keep you waiting in the cells I ran out of petrol
on the motorway and I forgot my credit cards)
Surgeon (yes I can do heart surgery but electrics are not my strong point)
Prison Officers (although he did make a good comment about Dennis Nilsen)
Armed police officer (how do you know which cables are live)
Lawyer (I could do it but myself you are £300 per hour cheaper than me) I am
sure he was lying.
Football captain (he had a calendar on his wall showing the days he scored -
but his team were not playing on some of those days)

If they can't change a fuse, they're too stupid to be in the human race and we'd be better off without them. If I was their landlord, I'd say (in a condescending tone), "Yes I'll do it for you, but I'm charging you for it as most people do this kind of thing themselves". Appliances used to needs plugs wiring onto them, now they come pre-wired. It's getting ridiculous. In a few generations, everyone will be complete morons and the world will grind to a halt. People need to think for themselves and stand on their own two feet again or we'll never get anywhere.

--
Gary's weather forecasting stone:
Stone is wet Rain
Stone is dry Not raining
Shadow on ground Sunny
White on top Snowing
Can't see stone Foggy
Swinging stone Windy
Stone jumping up and down Earthquake
Stone gone Tornado

On 23/10/14 20:58, ARW wrote:
"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news

Like I said, it's not rocket science. If they're intelligent enough
to read and write, they can rewire a fuse.

Get a reality check.

Here is a small list of customers that can read and write. I have
worked for them I would not trust them to correctly change a fuse - this
list only includes one person in that profession and I do not claim that
everyone in that profession cannot change a fuse. It also includes some
what they have said to me.

Teachers (not Geography teachers for some reason). Never let an English
teacher do any DIY
Duty Solicitor (sorry to keep you waiting in the cells I ran out of
petrol on the motorway and I forgot my credit cards)

Hmm - attention to detail.

Surgeon (yes I can do heart surgery but electrics are not my strong point)

Prison Officers (although he did make a good comment about Dennis Nilsen)

My ex boss's boss was Dennis Nilsen's boss. He described Nilsen as "a
bit odd" (before they looked in his drains obviously).

Armed police officer (how do you know which cables are live)
Lawyer (I could do it but myself you are £300 per hour cheaper than me)
I am sure he was lying.
Football captain (he had a calendar on his wall showing the days he
scored - but his team were not playing on some of those days)

On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:39:21 +0100, GB wrote:

On 22/10/2014 18:04, John Rumm wrote:
On 22/10/2014 00:39, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 00:33:04 +0100, GB wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:57, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 23:49:01 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote:

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a house I'm
letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.

Why is it simpler? Fuses hardly ever blow, unlike some breakers....


See if you can work it out.

It isn't simpler, that's the answer.

Try this as a thought experiment:

Its 11pm, your tenant has just rang to say they turned the hall light
on, and now all the lights have gone out. You have a choice of talking a
technically clueless person through:

1) Finding the circuit breaker with the popped out button, and telling
them to push it

or

2) pulling out a fuse carrier, finding a screwdriver, finding some fuse
wire, get them to work out which is the 5A, now talk them through wiring
the carrier (in the dark), and replacing the fuse.

I would contest that 1 is far simpler for all involved.


My honest opinion is that Uncle Peter cannot be as incredibly stupid as
he makes out. He's bored and lonely. So, he sits at home and trolls on
Usenet.

You only think I'm stupid because I disagree with your viewpoint. That makes you an egotistical moron.

--
Never have I seen a word as accurate as politics.
Poly meaning many, and tic being a blood-sucking thing.

On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 14:57:16 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 23/10/2014 14:46, charles wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 23/10/2014 12:29, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 12:15:08 +0100, charles
wrote:

In article ,
Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 10:55:11 +0100, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Uncle Peter wrote:
It might trip if overloaded, which is its
purpose. As a fuse will blow.

But they're too sensitive to transients like bulk capacitors.

Then use the correct one.

They're against the regs.

Do tell us which ones.

In a school there are more regs.

BS7671 covers schools as well as domestic property.

but some LEAs have their own regulations over and above the national ones.

Indeed, but generally not under and below... i.e. a LEA should not be
able to override BS7671 with a lower standard.

In my case it was a higher standard. The electrician quoted it to me, it was the number of milliseconds before tripping in an environment where kids are present.

--
Excuse me sir, are you playing the bagpipes or sexually abusing an octopus?

On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 14:35:21 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 23/10/2014 07:44, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 07:30:06 +0100, charles wrote:

In article , Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 19:36:08 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

Tim Streater wrote
Uncle Peter wrote

Most people just buy a 6 way strip to sit behind the TV. TV, DVD,
etc use nothing like 13 amps.

I just had the sparks add four double-sockets behind where the TV
etc sit.

More fool you.

Then I got rid of the 6 way strip and the adapter. Much tidier.

Much tidier to have the strip inside whatever the electronics is in
and a single lead to the wall socket.

In spades with the computer, its got 3 16 way strips.

What in god's name have you got plugged in there? I've got two
monitors,
two printers, a computer, an amplifier, a telephone, and a portable
hard disk for backup.

3 computers, 2 printers, label printer, monitor, scanner, 1 network
router,
1 network hub, 1 printer server, desk lamp, telephone. 12 here.

Think you have problems?

8 computers, 1 telephone, 2 printers, 1 scanner, 2 monitors, 2 switches,
1 router, 1 ATA, 1 PSU for front door control system. And a couple spare
for laptop chargers, battery charger, etc.

Pah, lightweight ;-)

I just counted about 42 sockets in use in my office.

How many people work in your office?

--
What is the first thing a blonde learns when she takes driving lessons?
You can also sit upright in a car.

On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 14:28:52 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 23/10/2014 12:02, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 10:55:11 +0100, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Uncle Peter wrote:
It might trip if overloaded, which is its
purpose. As a fuse will blow.

But they're too sensitive to transients like bulk capacitors.

Then use the correct one.

They're against the regs.

Why do you keep making these daft claims?

There are three types of Miniature Circuit Breaker, denoted as type B,
C, & D.

A circuit designer is free to choose whichever is appropriate for the
circuit.

A "normal" type B breaker will have a nominal trip current, which is
provided by a thermal mechanism (i.e. like a fuse), and a fast acting
magnetic trip mechanism for clearing "fault" currents (i.e. overloads
many times the nominal rating).

All the different types of a given nominal rating will have the same
thermal response characteristic.

Since inrush currents can "look" like momentary faults even a type B
breaker will tolerate short duration loads of 3 to 5 x its nominal
rating before tripping.

A type C will allow 5 - 10x, and a type D up to 10 - 20x its nominal
rating.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ypes_B.2CC.2CD

The designer should choose the appropriate one for the circuit. So if
you are switching a large bank of strip lights with magnetic ballasts,
then a Type C will be more sensible than a B. For circuit with a 5kW
blower motor, a type D may be more appropriate.

Well we had B for a room of 20 computers. I was told it had to be B. I eventually persuaded him to fit C, which improved things a bit. Then later on a different electrician ignored the rules and fitted a D.

--
How do you play Iraqi bingo?
B-52...F-16...B-2

On 23/10/2014 08:31, harryagain wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 22/10/2014 11:29, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 9:54:30 AM UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news
A lot of things might use 4 times the rated load for a bit.

**** all do in fact.

Quite; motors, filament lights, halogen lighting, transformers,
diode/cap input PSUs such as computers, wallwarts etc, none of these
things exist.

Indeed, and if the motor is an induction type, then you can have anything
from 5 to 9 times its nominal current drawn at startup.

Just as well your bog standard type B MCB is designed to permit inrush
current of 5 x nominal.

No, twice is more like.

They are normally specced such that the magnetic response will kick in
at at no less than 3x nominal, and up to 5x nominal.

Hence why the 5x value is the one to use for the adiabatic calculation
when assessing cable survivability under fault conditions.

See the table on the right of the graph:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/d/d...e-MCBTypeB.png

Also see MK explanation in their spec sheet:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technica...Sentry/MCB.pdf

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
charles wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Streater wrote
Uncle Peter wrote

They are sold in varying spacings, FACT.

None of them allow the biggest wallwarts in every socket, FACT.

You sure know how to be a fool

You never could bull**** your way out of a wet paper bag.

On 23/10/2014 17:33, harryagain wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
harryagain wrote:
Fuse wire will carry four times the rated load for around half an hour
before melting.

Where on earth did you find that bit of nonsense? More like a second at
twice the rated current.

That is for cartridge fuses.

I estimate about 3 sec for a normal plug fuse at 4 x In:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...FusingTime.png

Similar for a BS3036 rewireable:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/f/fc/Curve-BS3036.png

And only about 1 sec for 4x In with a BS88:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/0/05/Curve-BS88.png

What kind of fuse did you have in mind?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 23/10/2014 18:12, GB wrote:
On 22/10/2014 19:49, ARW wrote:

I agree that an RCD would be good. That's the next change on the list.


Is that as a CU swap or just adding RCD protection to the socket
circuits? I am sure that you are aware that a fusebox to CU swap can in
some cases open a can of worms.


I had not realised just what a can of worms it can open up, but I have
now read the wiki. The electricians who are dealing with this
recommended just changing over the fuses, whilst I had expected them to
suggest a new consumer unit. I can see why, now.

Its not so much the CU swap that can highlight latent problems, as the
introduction of circuit level RCD protection for the first time.
Generally still worth doing IMHO since that's one of the big gains in
safety (to both people and property).

If you go for a "high integrity" CU (i.e. a modern 17th edition style
unit with multiple RCDs, but also some non RCD ways. Then if you do
encounter any problem circuits you can always temporarily put them on
non RCD MCBs to get the power back on. Allowing more time for full
diagnosis and fix later.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 23/10/2014 21:23, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:39:21 +0100, GB wrote:

On 22/10/2014 18:04, John Rumm wrote:
On 22/10/2014 00:39, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 00:33:04 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:57, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 23:49:01 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote:

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a house I'm
letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.

Why is it simpler? Fuses hardly ever blow, unlike some breakers....


See if you can work it out.

It isn't simpler, that's the answer.

Try this as a thought experiment:

Its 11pm, your tenant has just rang to say they turned the hall light
on, and now all the lights have gone out. You have a choice of talking a
technically clueless person through:

1) Finding the circuit breaker with the popped out button, and telling
them to push it

or

2) pulling out a fuse carrier, finding a screwdriver, finding some fuse
wire, get them to work out which is the 5A, now talk them through wiring
the carrier (in the dark), and replacing the fuse.

I would contest that 1 is far simpler for all involved.


My honest opinion is that Uncle Peter cannot be as incredibly stupid as
he makes out. He's bored and lonely. So, he sits at home and trolls on
Usenet.

You only think I'm stupid because I disagree with your viewpoint. That
makes you an egotistical moron.

That would indeed be one possibility. I will leave it as an exercise for
our readers to think of alternative explanations.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 23/10/2014 21:24, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 14:35:21 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 23/10/2014 07:44, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 07:30:06 +0100, charles wrote:

In article , Uncle Peter
wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 19:36:08 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

Tim Streater wrote
Uncle Peter wrote

Most people just buy a 6 way strip to sit behind the TV. TV, DVD,
etc use nothing like 13 amps.

I just had the sparks add four double-sockets behind where the TV
etc sit.

More fool you.

Then I got rid of the 6 way strip and the adapter. Much tidier.

Much tidier to have the strip inside whatever the electronics is in
and a single lead to the wall socket.

In spades with the computer, its got 3 16 way strips.

What in god's name have you got plugged in there? I've got two
monitors,
two printers, a computer, an amplifier, a telephone, and a portable
hard disk for backup.

3 computers, 2 printers, label printer, monitor, scanner, 1 network
router,
1 network hub, 1 printer server, desk lamp, telephone. 12 here.

Think you have problems?

8 computers, 1 telephone, 2 printers, 1 scanner, 2 monitors, 2 switches,
1 router, 1 ATA, 1 PSU for front door control system. And a couple spare
for laptop chargers, battery charger, etc.

Pah, lightweight ;-)

I just counted about 42 sockets in use in my office.

How many people work in your office?

Just me... half the time ;-)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 22:54:05 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 23/10/2014 21:23, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:39:21 +0100, GB wrote:

On 22/10/2014 18:04, John Rumm wrote:
On 22/10/2014 00:39, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 00:33:04 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:57, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 23:49:01 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote:

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a house I'm
letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.

Why is it simpler? Fuses hardly ever blow, unlike some breakers....


See if you can work it out.

It isn't simpler, that's the answer.

Try this as a thought experiment:

Its 11pm, your tenant has just rang to say they turned the hall light
on, and now all the lights have gone out. You have a choice of talking a
technically clueless person through:

1) Finding the circuit breaker with the popped out button, and telling
them to push it

or

2) pulling out a fuse carrier, finding a screwdriver, finding some fuse
wire, get them to work out which is the 5A, now talk them through wiring
the carrier (in the dark), and replacing the fuse.

I would contest that 1 is far simpler for all involved.


My honest opinion is that Uncle Peter cannot be as incredibly stupid as
he makes out. He's bored and lonely. So, he sits at home and trolls on
Usenet.

You only think I'm stupid because I disagree with your viewpoint. That
makes you an egotistical moron.

That would indeed be one possibility. I will leave it as an exercise for
our readers to think of alternative explanations.

Troll.


--
"A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it. That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit."
- Army preventative maintainance publication

On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 22:54:05 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 23/10/2014 21:23, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:39:21 +0100, GB wrote:

On 22/10/2014 18:04, John Rumm wrote:
On 22/10/2014 00:39, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 00:33:04 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:57, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 23:49:01 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 21/10/2014 23:30, Uncle Peter wrote:

It appears she did. And when I said I had fuses she was horrified.

I've just had some fuses replaced with trip switches on a house I'm
letting out. It makes life an awful lot simpler.

Why is it simpler? Fuses hardly ever blow, unlike some breakers....


See if you can work it out.

It isn't simpler, that's the answer.

Try this as a thought experiment:

Its 11pm, your tenant has just rang to say they turned the hall light
on, and now all the lights have gone out. You have a choice of talking a
technically clueless person through:

1) Finding the circuit breaker with the popped out button, and telling
them to push it

or

2) pulling out a fuse carrier, finding a screwdriver, finding some fuse
wire, get them to work out which is the 5A, now talk them through wiring
the carrier (in the dark), and replacing the fuse.

I would contest that 1 is far simpler for all involved.


My honest opinion is that Uncle Peter cannot be as incredibly stupid as
he makes out. He's bored and lonely. So, he sits at home and trolls on
Usenet.

You only think I'm stupid because I disagree with your viewpoint. That
makes you an egotistical moron.

That would indeed be one possibility. I will leave it as an exercise for
our readers to think of alternative explanations.

Troll.


--
"A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it. That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit."
- Army preventative maintainance publication

On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 12:50:05 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
charles wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Streater wrote
Uncle Peter wrote

Most people just buy a 6 way strip to sit behind the TV. TV, DVD,
etc use nothing like 13 amps.

I just had the sparks add four double-sockets behind where the TV
etc sit.

More fool you.

Then I got rid of the 6 way strip and the adapter. Much tidier.

Much tidier to have the strip inside whatever the electronics is in
and a single lead to the wall socket.

In spades with the computer, its got 3 16 way strips.

What in god's name have you got plugged in there? I've got two
monitors, two printers, a computer, an amplifier, a telephone, and a
portable hard disk for backup.

3 computers, 2 printers, label printer, monitor, scanner, 1 network
router, 1 network hub, 1 printer server, desk lamp, telephone. 12
here.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that you can't use all
the sockets on the plug strips because some of the wall warts
are too big to allow the socket next to them to be used by
anything else.

I don't have that problem.

Because you don't have any of the bigger wall warts.

Anything powerful I have has a seperate wart that's on a wire from a
normal plug.

Some of mine do, plenty don't.

Show me a photo of one that doesn't.

Either get more sensibly spaced strips,

Not even possible.

They are sold in varying spacings, FACT.

None of them allow the biggest wallwarts in every socket, FACT.

Then get the industrial ones, like they put in server racks.

or stop using those old transformer based wallwarts.

No thanks, it's a hell of a lot cheaper to add another plug strip.

Not if you add up the wasted electricity.

Bull****.

Feel the heat off a transformer wart.

All my wallwarts weight about as much as the plastic housing and are
half the size of my hand.

And you have **** all of them compared with me.

I've got loads.

You clearly don't if you can get away with just 8 sockets
or you are actually stupid enough to keep plugging and
unplugging them from the single plug strip.

8 sockets where? At my computer desk? Only the telephone has a wart there.

--
A man was sunbathing naked at the beach.
For the sake of decency and civility, and to keep it from getting sunburnt, he had a hat over his private parts.
A woman walks past and says, snickering, "If you were a gentleman you'd lift your hat."
He raised an eyebrow and replied, "If you were better looking it would lift itself."

On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 12:50:05 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
charles wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Streater wrote
Uncle Peter wrote

Most people just buy a 6 way strip to sit behind the TV. TV, DVD,
etc use nothing like 13 amps.

I just had the sparks add four double-sockets behind where the TV
etc sit.

More fool you.

Then I got rid of the 6 way strip and the adapter. Much tidier.

Much tidier to have the strip inside whatever the electronics is in
and a single lead to the wall socket.

In spades with the computer, its got 3 16 way strips.

What in god's name have you got plugged in there? I've got two
monitors, two printers, a computer, an amplifier, a telephone, and a
portable hard disk for backup.

3 computers, 2 printers, label printer, monitor, scanner, 1 network
router, 1 network hub, 1 printer server, desk lamp, telephone. 12
here.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that you can't use all
the sockets on the plug strips because some of the wall warts
are too big to allow the socket next to them to be used by
anything else.

I don't have that problem.

Because you don't have any of the bigger wall warts.

Anything powerful I have has a seperate wart that's on a wire from a
normal plug.

Some of mine do, plenty don't.

Show me a photo of one that doesn't.

Either get more sensibly spaced strips,

Not even possible.

They are sold in varying spacings, FACT.

None of them allow the biggest wallwarts in every socket, FACT.

Then get the industrial ones, like they put in server racks.

or stop using those old transformer based wallwarts.

No thanks, it's a hell of a lot cheaper to add another plug strip.

Not if you add up the wasted electricity.

Bull****.

Feel the heat off a transformer wart.

All my wallwarts weight about as much as the plastic housing and are
half the size of my hand.

And you have **** all of them compared with me.

I've got loads.

You clearly don't if you can get away with just 8 sockets
or you are actually stupid enough to keep plugging and
unplugging them from the single plug strip.

8 sockets where? At my computer desk? Only the telephone has a wart there.

--
A man was sunbathing naked at the beach.
For the sake of decency and civility, and to keep it from getting sunburnt, he had a hat over his private parts.
A woman walks past and says, snickering, "If you were a gentleman you'd lift your hat."
He raised an eyebrow and replied, "If you were better looking it would lift itself."

On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 14:03:24 +0100, wrote:

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:52:33 PM UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
charles wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Streater wrote
Uncle Peter wrote

They are sold in varying spacings, FACT.

None of them allow the biggest wallwarts in every socket, FACT.

You sure know how to be a fool

He's Australian, we have to make allowances.

--
A fat girl served me in McDonald's at lunchtime. She said "sorry about the wait". I said, "Don't worry, you'll find a way to lose it eventually"

On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 14:03:24 +0100, wrote:

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:52:33 PM UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
charles wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Streater wrote
Uncle Peter wrote

They are sold in varying spacings, FACT.

None of them allow the biggest wallwarts in every socket, FACT.

You sure know how to be a fool

He's Australian, we have to make allowances.

--
A fat girl served me in McDonald's at lunchtime. She said "sorry about the wait". I said, "Don't worry, you'll find a way to lose it eventually"

"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news
You only think I'm stupid because I disagree with your viewpoint. That
makes you an egotistical moron.

That would indeed be one possibility. I will leave it as an exercise for
our readers to think of alternative explanations.

Troll.
Bellend.

Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
charles wrote
Uncle Peter wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Streater wrote
Uncle Peter wrote

Most people just buy a 6 way strip to sit behind the TV. TV,
DVD, etc use nothing like 13 amps.

I just had the sparks add four double-sockets behind where the TV
etc sit.

More fool you.

Then I got rid of the 6 way strip and the adapter. Much tidier.

Much tidier to have the strip inside whatever the electronics is
in
and a single lead to the wall socket.

In spades with the computer, its got 3 16 way strips.

What in god's name have you got plugged in there? I've got two
monitors, two printers, a computer, an amplifier, a telephone, and
a
portable hard disk for backup.

3 computers, 2 printers, label printer, monitor, scanner, 1 network
router, 1 network hub, 1 printer server, desk lamp, telephone. 12
here.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that you can't use all
the sockets on the plug strips because some of the wall warts
are too big to allow the socket next to them to be used by
anything else.

I don't have that problem.

Because you don't have any of the bigger wall warts.

Anything powerful I have has a seperate wart that's on a wire from a
normal plug.

Some of mine do, plenty don't.

Show me a photo of one that doesn't.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xpsfgxkg9g...%2053.jpg?dl=0

Either get more sensibly spaced strips,

Not even possible.

They are sold in varying spacings, FACT.

None of them allow the biggest wallwarts in every socket, FACT.

Then get the industrial ones, like they put in server racks.

No thanks, its much better value to have another 16 socket strip instead.

or stop using those old transformer based wallwarts.

No thanks, it's a hell of a lot cheaper to add another plug strip.

Not if you add up the wasted electricity.

Bull****.

Feel the heat off a transformer wart.

Its **** all cost per year. It would take years to pay
for a replacement switch mode wart instead with
those higher current warts, particularly if you don't
want to risk it with the cheapest chinese warts dying
and killing what they are powering.

Have a look at some of the fake apple
charger teardowns on youtube sometime.

All my wallwarts weight about as much as the plastic housing and are
half the size of my hand.

And you have **** all of them compared with me.

I've got loads.

You clearly don't if you can get away with just 8 sockets
or you are actually stupid enough to keep plugging and
unplugging them from the single plug strip.

8 sockets where? At my computer desk?

Where all your non entertainment stuff is.

Only the telephone has a wart there.

You still have **** all compared with me and John.

FFS Wodney, get a room and take the silly PHucker with you.