The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:

I want to make a double-clickable executable that can run a script,
get the exit code from the script, and if required put up an alert
panel with a message.

python is probably your best bet for that. the main problem is that
even with GTK, actually opening a window is a bit opaque (sic!)

call xdialog?

On 23/09/14 01:54, Arfa Daily wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 22/09/14 13:29, John Williamson wrote:
On 22/09/2014 10:39, Bill wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

About Linux

The only two things I have found that are still substandard are
scanner and wifi drivers.

And audio interface drivers, especially for anything beyond just
listening, and I can't find a virtual keyboard that works properly on a
tablet PC

The audio interface problems are the main reason I don't use Linux.
Please don't suggest I should choose a different audio interface, as the
ones I use are the best I can afford. That and the Bluetooth
non-support.

Yep. If you are pushing bleeding edge hardware, then the bleeding
hardware manufactures know they HAVE to get it working under windows.

They wont get it working under OSX, because no one puts non apple
cards into OSX.

They may or may not bother to get it working under Linux.

Usually thats a linux geek in their company who does that.

scanners and printers and sound all have had a chequered history. CUPS
and HP between them solved MOST of the printer problems, and thats
mostly plug and play now.

Sound on standard type chipsets is OK for normal use.

Scanners are still a bit hit and miss. If you get the right scanner
its plkug and play, if wrong, it simply will never work. In between
there are some that can be coaxed to life but not always at full res.



But this is a bit like what I'm saying. I've never had a sound problem
with any audio application that I have ever run on any machine with any
version of Windows. Nor have I ever had a printer or scanner or combo
that hasn't just worked with minimum fuss and pretty much transparent
driver installation from the manufacturer's supplied disc. That is the
main advantage of Windows over other operating systems, for me, and I
would suggest most *average* computer users.

periphieral compatibility is at about 85%, compared to windows 95%.

Yes, there is lots of stuff on windows that doesn't play nice as well.

And OSX. Imagine buying a new printer and finding out that you acnt
install the drivers because you have an OSX on power PC, and the printer
manufactures decide not to support that processor because its ten years old.

How many mew peripheral work on old XP?

And there isn't a lot linux can do if manufacturers wont release driver
sources either. Or write linux drivers.




Arfa


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

But this is a bit like what I'm saying. I've never had a sound problem
with any audio application that I have ever run on any machine with any
version of Windows. Nor have I ever had a printer or scanner or combo
that hasn't just worked with minimum fuss and pretty much transparent
driver installation from the manufacturer's supplied disc. That is the
main advantage of Windows over other operating systems, for me, and I
would suggest most *average* computer users.

periphieral compatibility is at about 85%, compared to windows 95%.

Yes, there is lots of stuff on windows that doesn't play nice as well.


But the 5 % that doesn't is almost certainly pretty 'specialist', which
would be why there has been little commercial incentive to make it play
nicely.


And OSX. Imagine buying a new printer and finding out that you acnt
install the drivers because you have an OSX on power PC, and the printer
manufactures decide not to support that processor because its ten years
old.


But why would you buy a printer that didn't work on any operating system
that you intended it to ? Research before buying is surely the key here ?
And OSX is not Windows unless I'm missing something. Isn't it a Linux based
system ?


How many mew peripheral work on old XP?


The world moves on. There are many examples where something old struggles to
work in today's world. Manufacturers can't be expected to continue to
maintain old-hat products, just because a few people baulk at shelling out
for a new one ... I liked my XP machines, and had to be dragged kicking and
screaming onto later Windows versions, but like anything, I got used to it,
and now find that when I go back to the old backup workshop machine, it
looks really pony compared to my main W7 machine and the wife's Vista laptop



And there isn't a lot linux can do if manufacturers wont release driver
sources either. Or write linux drivers.


But you have to wonder why that is. Presumably because they believe that the
potential returns don't justify the extra costs. It's a hard old life out
there in 'commercial land' and every penny of spend has to be worth it. And
I'm surprised that if there is sufficient demand for a driver, Linux
enthusiasts wouldn't reverse engineer a Windows version, and then produce a
work around that interfaced the device's functionality to their platform.

Arfa

On 23/09/14 09:48, Arfa Daily wrote:




But this is a bit like what I'm saying. I've never had a sound problem
with any audio application that I have ever run on any machine with any
version of Windows. Nor have I ever had a printer or scanner or combo
that hasn't just worked with minimum fuss and pretty much transparent
driver installation from the manufacturer's supplied disc. That is the
main advantage of Windows over other operating systems, for me, and I
would suggest most *average* computer users.

periphieral compatibility is at about 85%, compared to windows 95%.

Yes, there is lots of stuff on windows that doesn't play nice as well.


But the 5 % that doesn't is almost certainly pretty 'specialist', which
would be why there has been little commercial incentive to make it play
nicely.


And OSX. Imagine buying a new printer and finding out that you acnt
install the drivers because you have an OSX on power PC, and the
printer manufactures decide not to support that processor because its
ten years old.


But why would you buy a printer that didn't work on any operating system
that you intended it to ? Research before buying is surely the key here
? And OSX is not Windows unless I'm missing something. Isn't it a Linux
based system ?


well there you go, Yiur point was that windows was somehow more likeley
to work. My point is that it isn't., And nor is OSX, which is NOT based
on linux, but free BD=SD.


How many mew peripheral work on old XP?


The world moves on. There are many examples where something old
struggles to work in today's world. Manufacturers can't be expected to
continue to maintain old-hat products, just because a few people baulk
at shelling out for a new one ... I liked my XP machines, and had to be
dragged kicking and screaming onto later Windows versions, but like
anything, I got used to it, and now find that when I go back to the old
backup workshop machine, it looks really pony compared to my main W7
machine and the wife's Vista laptop

My point is that old peripherals STILL WORK on NEW linux.

Only NEW peripherals sometimes dont work on new linux, and sometimes
they aint that hot on other platforms either.




And there isn't a lot linux can do if manufacturers wont release
driver sources either. Or write linux drivers.


But you have to wonder why that is. Presumably because they believe that
the potential returns don't justify the extra costs. It's a hard old
life out there in 'commercial land' and every penny of spend has to be
worth it. And I'm surprised that if there is sufficient demand for a
driver, Linux enthusiasts wouldn't reverse engineer a Windows version,
and then produce a work around that interfaced the device's
functionality to their platform.

Chicken and egg.

the triumph of linux is that it continues to work as well as it does
despite not being charged fir.

And a lot of that is down to the likes of IBM and Redhat, who pour money
into it because its is a better platform for their needs and they can
sell more and better applications and support upon it.

An open standard well developed operating system is in their interests.

What will happen fairly soon I think is that the actual desktop market
will shrink and the likes of apple and microsoft will abandon it.

consumers will have their fondle slabs, and business where it needs
workstations will increasingly adopt linux, and the power applications
that need such an environment will move with it.

And of course, there is an argument that the power users programs have
already all been written..and the likes of adobe, Quark, solidworks
etc..are increasingly finding it hard to justify massive R&D into
products that already work and which everyone who needs them already has..

Apple has redefined itself already as either a purveyor of electronic
fashion accessories or as a vendor of top of the line specialist
workstations. It really doesn't have much to offer on a desktop.

Microsoft still has huge presence on the corporate desktop, but that's
really all legacy. Nothing really new has come along from MS in years.
Xbox? perhaps.

The world changes, and maybe its MS and Apple who are in more trouble
than Linux is.

Poeple like stanaards true, but they like free standards even better.










Arfa




--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 23/09/14 09:14, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 22/09/14 23:47, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 22/09/14 22:04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/09/14 22:02, Tim Streater wrote:

Only for those few listed there. I want to see an icon for any
mounted
volume.

then turn that feature

they pop up automagically.

see he

http://vps.templar.co.uk/Odds%20and%20Ends/winowman.png

That's mint mate 17...

I just tested it and nfs mounted 7 drives on my remote machine (using
a console script) and they all popped up like mushrooms

I've got that ticked. I've got "Computer" but no icon for the hard
drive or for the host's shared volume I mounted in the Terminal.

Odd. that suggest that the daemon that detects mounted volumes in not
running. (dbus?) Try unticking everything, rebooting, and then
reticking what you want.

There is some evidence of issues with CIFS/samba style 'windows' mounts.

What about inserting a dvd or a thumb drive?

If I use the Virtual box menu item to "mount" the VirtualBoxAdditions
virtual DVD, then that appears on the desktop.

Are you running mint in a VM?


BTW, does Mint have anything resembling Visual Basic? I want to make a
double-clickable executable that can run a script, get the exit code
from the script, and if required put up an alert panel with a message.


Mm. python is probably your best bet for that.

http://www.redhat.com/magazine/012oc...atures/python/

the main problem is that even with GTK, actually opening a window is a
bit opaque (sic!)

Hmmm, I'll take a look at that. Can't be worse than AppleScript, anyway
:-)

I also found an apparent bug with drag and drop of a file from one File
manager window to another. To effect changes, I've been editing under
OS X, and saving a copy into the shared folder. The shared folder is
mounted under Mint, but is owned by root so I drag it from there into
my testbed in my Mint home directory. Last times I did that, the
destination file was then missing about its last 350 bytes (out of
about 300k). Copying with cp was fine so testing proceeded, but perhaps
I should report that.

these all sound like samba bugs to me.

I use NFS whenever possible because it 'just works'

Only my XP in virtual box uses samba, and that works OK with windows
client and samba server.

Let me try and mount a smb volume on raw linux

nope, that show up OK too






--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 23/09/2014 01:54, Arfa Daily wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 22/09/14 13:29, John Williamson wrote:
On 22/09/2014 10:39, Bill wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

About Linux

The only two things I have found that are still substandard are
scanner and wifi drivers.

And audio interface drivers, especially for anything beyond just
listening, and I can't find a virtual keyboard that works properly on a
tablet PC

The audio interface problems are the main reason I don't use Linux.
Please don't suggest I should choose a different audio interface, as the
ones I use are the best I can afford. That and the Bluetooth
non-support.

Yep. If you are pushing bleeding edge hardware, then the bleeding
hardware manufactures know they HAVE to get it working under windows.

They wont get it working under OSX, because no one puts non apple
cards into OSX.

They may or may not bother to get it working under Linux.

Usually thats a linux geek in their company who does that.

scanners and printers and sound all have had a chequered history. CUPS
and HP between them solved MOST of the printer problems, and thats
mostly plug and play now.

Sound on standard type chipsets is OK for normal use.

Scanners are still a bit hit and miss. If you get the right scanner
its plkug and play, if wrong, it simply will never work. In between
there are some that can be coaxed to life but not always at full res.



But this is a bit like what I'm saying. I've never had a sound problem
with any audio application that I have ever run on any machine with any
version of Windows. Nor have I ever had a printer or scanner or combo
that hasn't just worked with minimum fuss and pretty much transparent
driver installation from the manufacturer's supplied disc. That is the
main advantage of Windows over other operating systems, for me, and I
would suggest most *average* computer users.

You certainly need to take more care when choosing peripherals with a
non windows OS. However windows is not immune to the problem. Especially
when moving generations. I have had devices that became unsupportable
going from 98 to win 2k / XP etc. Then more going from XP to 7/8


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 23/09/14 11:19, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 23/09/14 09:14, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

What about inserting a dvd or a thumb drive?

If I use the Virtual box menu item to "mount" the VirtualBoxAdditions
virtual DVD, then that appears on the desktop.

Are you running mint in a VM?

Yes, using VirtualBox.

I also found an apparent bug with drag and drop of a file from one File
manager window to another. To effect changes, I've been editing under
OS X, and saving a copy into the shared folder. The shared folder is
mounted under Mint, but is owned by root so I drag it from there into
my testbed in my Mint home directory. Last times I did that, the
destination file was then missing about its last 350 bytes (out of
about 300k). Copying with cp was fine so testing proceeded, but perhaps
I should report that.

these all sound like samba bugs to me.

I use NFS whenever possible because it 'just works'

Only my XP in virtual box uses samba, and that works OK with windows
client and samba server.

Let me try and mount a smb volume on raw linux

nope, that show up OK too

Where is your mount point? In /media? I'm mounting it into my home
directory.


both. nfs mounts are under home. The other was just wherever it showed up

I used the gui tool to mount an smb partition

hang on its still mounted..

hmm I can't see it actually mounted anywhere at all as such, but I can
access it with caja.

ah. its /run/user/1000/gvfs/nameofshsare

caja hides all that stuff from you.

http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopi...f=195&t=133578

It doesn't show in the mount table tho

Oh, it does, just not as expected

mount | grep gvfs

gvfsd-fuse on /run/user/1000/gvfs type fuse.gvfsd-fuse
(rw,nosuid,nodev,user=me)

it may just be that /media and /mnt are excluded from showing up

I cant say for sure, but a couple of threads suggest that may be the case.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Arfa Daily
wrote:

But why would you buy a printer that didn't work on any operating system
that you intended it to ? Research before buying is surely the key here ?
And OSX is not Windows unless I'm missing something. Isn't it a Linux
based system ?

BSD unix. And I never bother with the discs that come with e.g. a new
printer. Plug it in and OS X will download the right driver for you.

Yes, sorry, senior brain-fart moment. I of course meant to say Unix ...
:-)

Arfa

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 23/09/14 09:48, Arfa Daily wrote:




But this is a bit like what I'm saying. I've never had a sound problem
with any audio application that I have ever run on any machine with any
version of Windows. Nor have I ever had a printer or scanner or combo
that hasn't just worked with minimum fuss and pretty much transparent
driver installation from the manufacturer's supplied disc. That is the
main advantage of Windows over other operating systems, for me, and I
would suggest most *average* computer users.

periphieral compatibility is at about 85%, compared to windows 95%.

Yes, there is lots of stuff on windows that doesn't play nice as well.


But the 5 % that doesn't is almost certainly pretty 'specialist', which
would be why there has been little commercial incentive to make it play
nicely.


And OSX. Imagine buying a new printer and finding out that you acnt
install the drivers because you have an OSX on power PC, and the
printer manufactures decide not to support that processor because its
ten years old.


But why would you buy a printer that didn't work on any operating system
that you intended it to ? Research before buying is surely the key here
? And OSX is not Windows unless I'm missing something. Isn't it a Linux
based system ?


well there you go, Yiur point was that windows was somehow more likeley to
work. My point is that it isn't., And nor is OSX, which is NOT based on
linux, but free BD=SD.


How many mew peripheral work on old XP?


The world moves on. There are many examples where something old
struggles to work in today's world. Manufacturers can't be expected to
continue to maintain old-hat products, just because a few people baulk
at shelling out for a new one ... I liked my XP machines, and had to be
dragged kicking and screaming onto later Windows versions, but like
anything, I got used to it, and now find that when I go back to the old
backup workshop machine, it looks really pony compared to my main W7
machine and the wife's Vista laptop

My point is that old peripherals STILL WORK on NEW linux.

Only NEW peripherals sometimes dont work on new linux, and sometimes they
aint that hot on other platforms either.




And there isn't a lot linux can do if manufacturers wont release
driver sources either. Or write linux drivers.


But you have to wonder why that is. Presumably because they believe that
the potential returns don't justify the extra costs. It's a hard old
life out there in 'commercial land' and every penny of spend has to be
worth it. And I'm surprised that if there is sufficient demand for a
driver, Linux enthusiasts wouldn't reverse engineer a Windows version,
and then produce a work around that interfaced the device's
functionality to their platform.

Chicken and egg.

the triumph of linux is that it continues to work as well as it does
despite not being charged fir.

And a lot of that is down to the likes of IBM and Redhat, who pour money
into it because its is a better platform for their needs and they can
sell more and better applications and support upon it.

An open standard well developed operating system is in their interests.

What will happen fairly soon I think is that the actual desktop market
will shrink and the likes of apple and microsoft will abandon it.

consumers will have their fondle slabs, and business where it needs
workstations will increasingly adopt linux, and the power applications
that need such an environment will move with it.

And of course, there is an argument that the power users programs have
already all been written..and the likes of adobe, Quark, solidworks
etc..are increasingly finding it hard to justify massive R&D into products
that already work and which everyone who needs them already has..

Apple has redefined itself already as either a purveyor of electronic
fashion accessories or as a vendor of top of the line specialist
workstations. It really doesn't have much to offer on a desktop.

Microsoft still has huge presence on the corporate desktop, but that's
really all legacy. Nothing really new has come along from MS in years.
Xbox? perhaps.

The world changes, and maybe its MS and Apple who are in more trouble than
Linux is.

Poeple like stanaards true, but they like free standards even better.


Hmmm. I really don't think that for the average user, Windows on a laptop
or desktop is going to be in the slightest bit troubled by decline, for some
considerable time yet. I remain somewhat sceptical of the validity of a
number of your points. I'm not at all convinced that people like free
standards, when they involve a tinkerer's dream like Linux ... :-)

Arfa

You certainly need to take more care when choosing peripherals with a non
windows OS. However windows is not immune to the problem. Especially when
moving generations. I have had devices that became unsupportable going
from 98 to win 2k / XP etc. Then more going from XP to 7/8


--
Cheers,

John.

For sure, yes, but by the same token, the peripheral that this has to most
apply to is the printer or scanner or combo, and I've usually found that
most of the basic functionality can be retained by using a generic rather
than specific driver on a newer platform that doesn't 'officially' support
the device. I know we all love our 'old friends' hanging on the end of our
machines, but stuff like printers and combos are so cheap now that you might
as well just buy a new one anyway. Chances are that your old one is
mechanically - and sometimes electronically as well - pretty much worn out
anyway, if it's that old ...

Arfa

On 24/09/2014 02:12, Arfa Daily wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 23/09/14 09:48, Arfa Daily wrote:
Chicken and egg.

the triumph of linux is that it continues to work as well as it does
despite not being charged fir.

And a lot of that is down to the likes of IBM and Redhat, who pour
money into it because its is a better platform for their needs and
they can sell more and better applications and support upon it.

An open standard well developed operating system is in their interests.

What will happen fairly soon I think is that the actual desktop market
will shrink and the likes of apple and microsoft will abandon it.

consumers will have their fondle slabs, and business where it needs
workstations will increasingly adopt linux, and the power applications
that need such an environment will move with it.

And of course, there is an argument that the power users programs have
already all been written..and the likes of adobe, Quark, solidworks
etc..are increasingly finding it hard to justify massive R&D into
products that already work and which everyone who needs them already
has..

Apple has redefined itself already as either a purveyor of electronic
fashion accessories or as a vendor of top of the line specialist
workstations. It really doesn't have much to offer on a desktop.

Microsoft still has huge presence on the corporate desktop, but that's
really all legacy. Nothing really new has come along from MS in years.
Xbox? perhaps.

The world changes, and maybe its MS and Apple who are in more trouble
than Linux is.

Poeple like stanaards true, but they like free standards even better.


Hmmm. I really don't think that for the average user, Windows on a
laptop or desktop is going to be in the slightest bit troubled by
decline, for some considerable time yet. I remain somewhat sceptical of
the validity of a number of your points. I'm not at all convinced that
people like free standards, when they involve a tinkerer's dream like
Linux ... :-)

He's not got a clue about the corporate world - MS is growing there, not
shrinking. Linux desktops will remain niche. People will move towards
devices where the grunt is centralised - see eg O365 - but they'll still
be running windows of some kind if owned by the business, and the apps
which require local power (CAD, etc) will be on windows desktops.

IBM and RH aren't pushing Linux desktop, they're pushing Linux server.
Which are still good choices for various things, but windows server is
getting better each release. And MS are positioning themselves as a
one-stop shop for the corporate market - database, web server, CRM, ERP,
document management, communications, they're all there. More niche apps
such as CAD/CAM will remain in the hands of eg Autodesk, but the stuff
used by the millions of office grunts is getting more windowsy, not less.

At home, windows is cheap and easy. Machines come with it, and it
generally works for most people. There isn't a real cost advantage to
Linux on new kit, so no big manufacturer is going to bother trying to
sell it in the mass market.

It's all a pity, because I like my *nix servers and my windows ones
cause me pain.

Tim Streater wrote:

Huge wrote:

there are several programs that
will pop up a window from a shell script - I use "zenity".

I knew there was something newer than xdialog but was struggling to
remember it

(I avoid shell scripting as its too arcane. PHP scripts do what I need
and are much more comprehensible).

Python is tidier than PHP which is too much of a rag-bag for me.

On 24/09/14 02:12, Arfa Daily wrote:
Hmmm. I really don't think that for the average user, Windows on a
laptop or desktop is going to be in the slightest bit troubled by
decline, for some considerable time yet. I remain somewhat sceptical of
the validity of a number of your points. I'm not at all convinced that
people like free standards, when they involve a tinkerer's dream like Linux

??? what people like is fondleslabs, That come as they are and do what
they, mostly based on Linux.

The whole pot I am trying to make is that linux is a load it, set it up
and run it for years system, IF THAT IS WHAT YIU WANT. It doesn't need
tinkering, and I generally don't except after a new install.

I come from a background where we had PCs on the desktops and unix
servers. The desktops were always going wrong. The servers never did.

Now I have a desktop that doesn't go wrong, either.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 24/09/14 08:31, Huge wrote:
On 2014-09-22, Tim Streater wrote:

BTW, does Mint have anything resembling Visual Basic? I want to make a
double-clickable executable that can run a script, get the exit code
from the script, and if required put up an alert panel with a message.

You can do all that with a shell (bash) script. If you want an icon you
can use a Launcher (does right click ion the desktop pop up a menu with
an entry that says "New Launcher"?) And there are several programs that
will pop up a window from a shell script - I use "zenity".

Well that is all a bit more than 'just bash'



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 24/09/14 09:01, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:

Huge wrote:

there are several programs that
will pop up a window from a shell script - I use "zenity".

I knew there was something newer than xdialog but was struggling to
remember it

(I avoid shell scripting as its too arcane. PHP scripts do what I need
and are much more comprehensible).

Python is tidier than PHP which is too much of a rag-bag for me.

yes. I sue PHP for simple web pages, and C for everything else.

But python is definitely something I would use to lash up a GUI based
program. I just haven't got around to needing it yet.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I [use] PHP for simple web pages

I know it /is/ possible to write tidy PHP, but to avoid the ancient
kludges requires more self-discipline than most PHP programmers possess

It's not helped by the search engines turning up bad examples for people
to follow, including one recently that recommended encrypting credit
card details using PHP's base64_encode() function!

The page has been pulled now, but I saved a copy ...

http://adslpipe.co.uk/misc/www.ehow.com-7450803-encrypt-card-information-sql-database.pdf

In message , Clive
George writes
At home, windows is cheap and easy. Machines come with it, and it
generally works for most people. There isn't a real cost advantage to
Linux on new kit, so no big manufacturer is going to bother trying to
sell it in the mass market.
Well, Toshiba had an Ubuntu netbook - I bought one. The hardware was
horrible, though.
--
Bill

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

??? what people like is fondleslabs, That come as they are and do what
they, mostly based on Linux.

Yes, but not normally for 'proper work'.

The whole pot I am trying to make is that linux is a load it, set it up
and run it for years system, IF THAT IS WHAT YIU WANT. It doesn't need
tinkering, and I generally don't except after a new install.

I come from a background where we had PCs on the desktops and unix
servers. The desktops were always going wrong.

And you never blamed the users?

The servers never did.

And you never praised the installation/maintainers?

Now I have a desktop that doesn't go wrong, either.

I don't honestly see much difference. There are many things I don't like
about Windows, but I've got many things here that don't work with Mint.

Why doesn't Mint have a virtual keyboard that integrates, when every
Android device takes it for granted?
--
Bill

In message , Huge
writes
On 2014-09-24, Tim Streater wrote:

Since I have 15k lines of working PHP I'm not about to rewrite it.

Reasonable.

I'm beginning to regret starting this thread:-)

--
Tim Lamb

On 24/09/14 09:57, Huge wrote:
On 2014-09-24, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Huge
wrote:

On 2014-09-22, Tim Streater wrote:

BTW, does Mint have anything resembling Visual Basic? I want to make a
double-clickable executable that can run a script, get the exit code
from the script, and if required put up an alert panel with a message.

You can do all that with a shell (bash) script. If you want an icon you
can use a Launcher (does right click ion the desktop pop up a menu with
an entry that says "New Launcher"?) And there are several programs that
will pop up a window from a shell script - I use "zenity".

Under Mint, yes it does - thanks, something else for me to look into.

(I avoid shell scripting as its too arcane. PHP scripts do what I need
and are much more comprehensible).

PHP is the spawn of the Devil.

And on a more sensible note, it isn't always installed.


Indeed. It is the language however I sue most of the time fr web pages
simply because it is the most popular.

Like Mysql, its sufficient unto the day of you avoid all the bloat thats
been built that doesn't work very well and stick to simple conditionals
and loops and avoid object oriented BS like the plague.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 24/09/2014 02:18, Arfa Daily wrote:



You certainly need to take more care when choosing peripherals with a
non windows OS. However windows is not immune to the problem.
Especially when moving generations. I have had devices that became
unsupportable going from 98 to win 2k / XP etc. Then more going from
XP to 7/8


--
Cheers,

John.

For sure, yes, but by the same token, the peripheral that this has to
most apply to is the printer or scanner or combo, and I've usually found
that most of the basic functionality can be retained by using a generic
rather than specific driver on a newer platform that doesn't
'officially' support the device. I know we all love our 'old friends'
hanging on the end of our machines, but stuff like printers and combos
are so cheap now that you might as well just buy a new one anyway.
Chances are that your old one is mechanically - and sometimes
electronically as well - pretty much worn out anyway, if it's that old ...

If we are talking cheap combo machines, then yes, they are pretty much
disposable. However the first time this bit me was with a two to three
year old £1000 top end Epson SCSI scanner (GT8000 IIRC)... there were
no official drivers from Epson, but silverfast did some aimed at the
repro/publishing market. Only problem was they wanted more than the cost
of a new scanner for them! In the end had to upgrade to a better and
cheaper scanner - but that was still £600 - £700 at the time.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/09/14 12:06, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Huge
wrote:

On 2014-09-24, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Huge
wrote:


PHP is the spawn of the Devil.

This is merely your opinion.

Quite so. OTOH, my opinions make me a very good living.

And on a more sensible note, it isn't always installed.

On OS X it is (along with apache) which was my starting point.

Since you were talking about Linux, where you were coming from is of
little relevance.

It was, since OS X was where I developed my app. I agree that Ubuntu,
at least, appears to come with neither PHP nor apache, rather to my
surprise. I found the same on Windows but that was more to be expected.

Since I have 15k lines of working PHP I'm not about to rewrite it.

easy enough to install both apache and PHP

Slightly less easy to get all the extensions working.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 24/09/14 12:28, Bill wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

??? what people like is fondleslabs, That come as they are and do what
they, mostly based on Linux.

Yes, but not normally for 'proper work'.

The whole pot I am trying to make is that linux is a load it, set it
up and run it for years system, IF THAT IS WHAT YIU WANT. It doesn't
need tinkering, and I generally don't except after a new install.

I come from a background where we had PCs on the desktops and unix
servers. The desktops were always going wrong.

And you never blamed the users?

The servers never did.

And you never praised the installation/maintainers?

Now I have a desktop that doesn't go wrong, either.

I don't honestly see much difference. There are many things I don't like
about Windows, but I've got many things here that don't work with Mint.

Why doesn't Mint have a virtual keyboard that integrates, when every
Android device takes it for granted?

Because android is designed for machines that have virtual keyboards?

And linux-the-desktop (android is linux too) is designed for real keyboards?

You might just as well say ''why doesn't android come with fan control
software'


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 24/09/14 14:34, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , Huge
writes
On 2014-09-24, Tim Streater wrote:

Since I have 15k lines of working PHP I'm not about to rewrite it.

Reasonable.

I'm beginning to regret starting this thread:-)

I agree there's a danger of descending into language or platform wars
but we've manfully avoided that.

let's just say that all languages are in essence crap, and some are even
more crap than most. But they are all faster to write than assembler.

And even a crappy language can be persuaded to do what you want, unless
its pascal* of course.


*the only language I couldn't find a way to take an arbitrary 265bytes
of data, and look at the first few bytes to see what it was, and hence
what to do with the rest.

Pascal dont like casts one little bit.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 23/09/2014 08:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/09/14 22:19, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 22/09/14 16:38, Tim Streater wrote:

Not totally enamoured of the 'bookmarks' in the file browser system
but it works ok.

I've become used, on OS X, to just drag/dropping something in or out of
the side bar.

Mmm, the usual "blame the user" attitude.

I think that is reasonable. Newbies get what's given, pr0s get to
mess under the hood.

No, that's not what I'm used to. Newbies get what's given, but it
should be possible to modify quite a lot without having to use the
terminal.

It is. Certainly more is accessible than in windows XP which is the last
version I am used to.

regedit., sigh. When all else fails use regedit, and mess up the one and
only system wide config file on which everything depenbds.,

One and only if you ignore the "last good" backup and then all the
generational backups held in each restore point folder that is...

When I said 'mess under the hood' I don't mean they had to disassemble
the engine.

the most man hours in Mint have gone into writing gui apps that access
the config files.

Reading, displaying, collating and validating edits, and saving changes
back to configuration/ini/registry files etc is a pretty dull and
tedious job in any GUI I tend to find.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/09/14 15:43, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 24/09/14 12:06, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Huge
wrote:

On 2014-09-24, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Huge
wrote:


PHP is the spawn of the Devil.

This is merely your opinion.

Quite so. OTOH, my opinions make me a very good living.

And on a more sensible note, it isn't always installed.

On OS X it is (along with apache) which was my starting point.

Since you were talking about Linux, where you were coming from is of
little relevance.

It was, since OS X was where I developed my app. I agree that Ubuntu,
at least, appears to come with neither PHP nor apache, rather to my
surprise. I found the same on Windows but that was more to be expected.

Since I have 15k lines of working PHP I'm not about to rewrite it.

easy enough to install both apache and PHP

Slightly less easy to get all the extensions working.

That was the easy part. Finding I now had apache 2.4 rather than 2.2
was a bit taxing, but that all runs now and my app sends/receives mail.
Looking at Python now.

good luck ;-)


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 24/09/14 15:46, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 24/09/14 14:34, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , Huge
writes
On 2014-09-24, Tim Streater wrote:

Since I have 15k lines of working PHP I'm not about to rewrite it.

Reasonable.

I'm beginning to regret starting this thread:-)

I agree there's a danger of descending into language or platform wars
but we've manfully avoided that.

let's just say that all languages are in essence crap, and some are
even more crap than most. But they are all faster to write than
assembler.

+1

And even a crappy language can be persuaded to do what you want,
unless its pascal* of course.

*the only language I couldn't find a way to take an arbitrary 265bytes
of data, and look at the first few bytes to see what it was, and hence
what to do with the rest.

Pascal dont like casts one little bit.

In standard Pascal, there is no "return" statement, and each string of
different length is a different type.

That was the killer.

I needed to make a Union of every possible type of disk sector one might
in fact encounter,

That seemed to be beyond TurboPascal.

I the end I did what I consider to be the finest piece of programming I
ever did: I rewrote 10,000 lines of inoperative pascal in C and actually
got it to work, and interfaced to and IBM system in two days in a hotel
room in Orleans.

And had to sue the tosser who I did it for to get paid.



Also, IIRC, the language defines
nothing about I/O (print, write, and the like), meaning that different
implementations vary in this regard. BICBW, it's 40 years ago now.

Pascal was written by an academic, therefore its perfect(ly useless).



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 24/09/2014 02:18, Arfa Daily wrote:



You certainly need to take more care when choosing peripherals with a
non windows OS. However windows is not immune to the problem.
Especially when moving generations. I have had devices that became
unsupportable going from 98 to win 2k / XP etc. Then more going from
XP to 7/8


--
Cheers,

John.

For sure, yes, but by the same token, the peripheral that this has to
most apply to is the printer or scanner or combo, and I've usually found
that most of the basic functionality can be retained by using a generic
rather than specific driver on a newer platform that doesn't
'officially' support the device. I know we all love our 'old friends'
hanging on the end of our machines, but stuff like printers and combos
are so cheap now that you might as well just buy a new one anyway.
Chances are that your old one is mechanically - and sometimes
electronically as well - pretty much worn out anyway, if it's that old
...

If we are talking cheap combo machines, then yes, they are pretty much
disposable. However the first time this bit me was with a two to three
year old £1000 top end Epson SCSI scanner (GT8000 IIRC)... there were no
official drivers from Epson, but silverfast did some aimed at the
repro/publishing market. Only problem was they wanted more than the cost
of a new scanner for them! In the end had to upgrade to a better and
cheaper scanner - but that was still £600 - £700 at the time.

--
Cheers,

John.

I suppose that the deal is that Windows tries to be all things to all
people, and it just can't. At a grand, that's a pretty specialist scanner,
and I would not imagine that too many were sold, and the people using them
were almost certainly not 'home' users, so the majority of them were quite
possibly not even being used on Windows systems, so it may not have been
worth Epson's while to keep writing drivers for newer Windows versions. And
I suppose that really, it's not Window's fault if the manufacturers of the
devices won't update drivers, or release the code of existing drivers to
allow others to rework them. I've never actually liked Epson peripherals,
anyway ...

Would this scanner have actually worked on a Linux system ?

Arfa

On 26/09/2014 02:27, Arfa Daily wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 24/09/2014 02:18, Arfa Daily wrote:


If we are talking cheap combo machines, then yes, they are pretty much
disposable. However the first time this bit me was with a two to three
year old £1000 top end Epson SCSI scanner (GT8000 IIRC)... there
were no official drivers from Epson, but silverfast did some aimed at
the repro/publishing market. Only problem was they wanted more than
the cost of a new scanner for them! In the end had to upgrade to a
better and cheaper scanner - but that was still £600 - £700 at the time.


I suppose that the deal is that Windows tries to be all things to all
people, and it just can't. At a grand, that's a pretty specialist
scanner,

At the time it was a good scanner - but nothing special as such (A4
flatbed scanners were scary money at the time - I guess this must have
been mid 90's). Pros would have been using drum scanners at 15x the price!

and I would not imagine that too many were sold, and the people
using them were almost certainly not 'home' users, so the majority of
them were quite possibly not even being used on Windows systems, so it
may not have been worth Epson's while to keep writing drivers for newer
Windows versions. And I suppose that really, it's not Window's fault if
the manufacturers of the devices won't update drivers, or release the
code of existing drivers to allow others to rework them.

Not windows fault as such, but just an illustration of one of the perils
of upgrades.

I've never
actually liked Epson peripherals, anyway ...

I have been quite pleased with the results from their scanners to be
fair...

Would this scanner have actually worked on a Linux system ?

There was no official support for it - but this was in the days where
Linux was still pretty rare. Mac and Windows were the supported platforms.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 22/09/2014 23:47, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 22/09/14 22:04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/09/14 22:02, Tim Streater wrote:

Only for those few listed there. I want to see an icon for any mounted
volume.

then turn that feature

they pop up automagically.

see he

http://vps.templar.co.uk/Odds%20and%20Ends/winowman.png

That's mint mate 17...

I just tested it and nfs mounted 7 drives on my remote machine (using
a console script) and they all popped up like mushrooms

I've got that ticked. I've got "Computer" but no icon for the hard
drive or for the host's shared volume I mounted in the Terminal.

BTW, does Mint have anything resembling Visual Basic? I want to make a
double-clickable executable that can run a script, get the exit code
from the script, and if required put up an alert panel with a message.

There is a Linux version of Lazarus (open source Delphi clone):

http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/

Like visual basic, but with a proper language ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 26/09/2014 02:27, Arfa Daily wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 24/09/2014 02:18, Arfa Daily wrote:



You certainly need to take more care when choosing peripherals with a
non windows OS. However windows is not immune to the problem.
Especially when moving generations. I have had devices that became
unsupportable going from 98 to win 2k / XP etc. Then more going from
XP to 7/8


--
Cheers,

John.

For sure, yes, but by the same token, the peripheral that this has to
most apply to is the printer or scanner or combo, and I've usually found
that most of the basic functionality can be retained by using a generic
rather than specific driver on a newer platform that doesn't
'officially' support the device. I know we all love our 'old friends'
hanging on the end of our machines, but stuff like printers and combos
are so cheap now that you might as well just buy a new one anyway.
Chances are that your old one is mechanically - and sometimes
electronically as well - pretty much worn out anyway, if it's that
old ...

If we are talking cheap combo machines, then yes, they are pretty much
disposable. However the first time this bit me was with a two to three
year old £1000 top end Epson SCSI scanner (GT8000 IIRC)... there
were no official drivers from Epson, but silverfast did some aimed at
the repro/publishing market. Only problem was they wanted more than
the cost of a new scanner for them! In the end had to upgrade to a
better and cheaper scanner - but that was still £600 - £700 at the time.

--
Cheers,

John.

I suppose that the deal is that Windows tries to be all things to all
people, and it just can't. At a grand, that's a pretty specialist
scanner, and I would not imagine that too many were sold, and the people
using them were almost certainly not 'home' users, so the majority of
them were quite possibly not even being used on Windows systems, so it
may not have been worth Epson's while to keep writing drivers for newer
Windows versions. And I suppose that really, it's not Window's fault if
the manufacturers of the devices won't update drivers, or release the
code of existing drivers to allow others to rework them. I've never
actually liked Epson peripherals, anyway ...

Would this scanner have actually worked on a Linux system ?

It was a Mac product so it might have.
They sold a different one for windows, cheaper.

Arfa

On 24/09/2014 15:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/09/14 14:34, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , Huge
writes
On 2014-09-24, Tim Streater wrote:

Since I have 15k lines of working PHP I'm not about to rewrite it.

Reasonable.

I'm beginning to regret starting this thread:-)

I agree there's a danger of descending into language or platform wars
but we've manfully avoided that.

let's just say that all languages are in essence crap, and some are even
more crap than most. But they are all faster to write than assembler.

And even a crappy language can be persuaded to do what you want, unless
its pascal* of course.


*the only language I couldn't find a way to take an arbitrary 265bytes
of data, and look at the first few bytes to see what it was, and hence
what to do with the rest.

Pascal dont like casts one little bit.

Depends on your pascal... turbo/delphi style pascals can get just as
down and dirty as C if you want.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/09/2014 15:46, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 24/09/14 14:34, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , Huge
writes
On 2014-09-24, Tim Streater wrote:

Since I have 15k lines of working PHP I'm not about to rewrite it.

Reasonable.

I'm beginning to regret starting this thread:-)

I agree there's a danger of descending into language or platform wars
but we've manfully avoided that.

let's just say that all languages are in essence crap, and some are
even more crap than most. But they are all faster to write than
assembler.

+1

And even a crappy language can be persuaded to do what you want,
unless its pascal* of course.

*the only language I couldn't find a way to take an arbitrary 265bytes
of data, and look at the first few bytes to see what it was, and hence
what to do with the rest.

Pascal dont like casts one little bit.

In standard Pascal, there is no "return" statement, and each string of
different length is a different type. Also, IIRC, the language defines
nothing about I/O (print, write, and the like), meaning that different
implementations vary in this regard. BICBW, it's 40 years ago now.

The original language in its "teaching" version is very limited. It does
support IO, but has little concept of permanent files etc.

Something like the ancient Turbo Pascal 3 for DOS supported all 26
standard built in functions, and then added another 500 odd to do real
work with ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/09/2014 16:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/09/14 15:46, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 24/09/14 14:34, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , Huge
writes
On 2014-09-24, Tim Streater wrote:

Since I have 15k lines of working PHP I'm not about to rewrite it.

Reasonable.

I'm beginning to regret starting this thread:-)

I agree there's a danger of descending into language or platform wars
but we've manfully avoided that.

let's just say that all languages are in essence crap, and some are
even more crap than most. But they are all faster to write than
assembler.

+1

And even a crappy language can be persuaded to do what you want,
unless its pascal* of course.

*the only language I couldn't find a way to take an arbitrary 265bytes
of data, and look at the first few bytes to see what it was, and hence
what to do with the rest.

Pascal dont like casts one little bit.

In standard Pascal, there is no "return" statement, and each string of
different length is a different type.

That was the killer.

I needed to make a Union of every possible type of disk sector one might
in fact encounter,

That seemed to be beyond TurboPascal.

Sure it was turbo? Since its trivially easy in any PC based version of
turbo pascal (it supports free union variant records, generic pointers,
dynamic C style memory allocation, untyped arrays or "array of byte"
style constructs, and it quite happy to let you index beyond the end of
arrays etc so long as you turn off range checking). I have never tried
one of the older CP/M versions though.

(you may well have had difficulties in other more "standard" flavours of
pascal like Prospero or UCSD etc)




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

I suppose that the deal is that Windows tries to be all things to all
people, and it just can't. At a grand, that's a pretty specialist
scanner,

At the time it was a good scanner - but nothing special as such (A4
flatbed scanners were scary money at the time - I guess this must have
been mid 90's). Pros would have been using drum scanners at 15x the price!


Hmmmm. I've had scanners from just about when they were first available to
go on a PC - certainly back into the 90's - and I certainly never paid
anything like that for any that I had. I still remember my first A4 flatbed
scanner, and seem to recall always being very impressed with the resolution
it was capable of. The maximum figure of 1200 dpi comes to mind, but that
might be a lie. But at what ever its max resolution was, it was too slow to
be of practical use. However, at 'realistic' resolutions, its performance
was perfectly adequate both from a quality of image and scan speed / data
transfer point of view.

Arfa

On 26/09/14 22:23, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/09/2014 15:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/09/14 14:34, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , Huge
writes
On 2014-09-24, Tim Streater wrote:

Since I have 15k lines of working PHP I'm not about to rewrite it.

Reasonable.

I'm beginning to regret starting this thread:-)

I agree there's a danger of descending into language or platform wars
but we've manfully avoided that.

let's just say that all languages are in essence crap, and some are even
more crap than most. But they are all faster to write than assembler.

And even a crappy language can be persuaded to do what you want, unless
its pascal* of course.


*the only language I couldn't find a way to take an arbitrary 265bytes
of data, and look at the first few bytes to see what it was, and hence
what to do with the rest.

Pascal dont like casts one little bit.

Depends on your pascal... turbo/delphi style pascals can get just as
down and dirty as C if you want.


well in fact I discovered they couldn't.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 27/09/2014 08:57, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/09/14 22:23, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/09/2014 15:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/09/14 14:34, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , Huge
writes
On 2014-09-24, Tim Streater wrote:

Since I have 15k lines of working PHP I'm not about to rewrite it.

Reasonable.

I'm beginning to regret starting this thread:-)

I agree there's a danger of descending into language or platform wars
but we've manfully avoided that.

let's just say that all languages are in essence crap, and some are even
more crap than most. But they are all faster to write than assembler.

And even a crappy language can be persuaded to do what you want, unless
its pascal* of course.


*the only language I couldn't find a way to take an arbitrary 265bytes
of data, and look at the first few bytes to see what it was, and hence
what to do with the rest.

Pascal dont like casts one little bit.

Depends on your pascal... turbo/delphi style pascals can get just as
down and dirty as C if you want.


well in fact I discovered they couldn't.

No offence intended, but perhaps you couldn't get them to do it at the
time, but they certainly can...

(I have done device drivers, interrupt handlers, real time code, down
and dirty bit aligned comms code, IP routing, and all sorts in delphi
and turbo pascal before that)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/