On 21/09/14 20:06, Arfa Daily wrote:
I wouldn't dispute that Linux has its uses, but to be fair, it does have
a bit of a reputation as being an 'enthusiasts' operating system, which
is how it came into being in the first place, really.

And so it *was*. But it isn't now.

I stuck to Windows until the pain of windows exceeded the pain of Linux.

I think Mint 13 changed things entirely the other way for me. It was
EASIER to install and set up than Windows XP was. And came with far more
goodies as standard. Its also very like Windows XP in 'look and feel'

The point is that you get a pretty 'XP' look and feel straight out of
the box in about half an hour of installation, given a machine with
Ethernet and an internet connection.

a 64 bit processor and 4MB RAM - which many XP machines are - is an
ideal starting point.


Laptops are a little more problematic, as is wifi. There you may need to
install a few extra drivers to get things going.

But if its an older desktop machine, chances are its 100% instantly
compatible.

This particular machine is 8 years old, and is a dual core pentium that
had 2MB RAM, and now sports 6, and the only other change I made was to
upgrade to a better graphix card than the intel onboard, which wouldn't
play my live 3D game.

It worked in under an hours install. All the time I have spent on it
since was to find the nicest appearance, get backups going in my own
arcane setup, and do the hardware/Bios upgrades.

And install a few extra programs that are 'essentials' for me.

It cost me nothing as a bare machine. Just the ram and video cost money

It was scrap.

It is the best computer I have ever owned.

And I still have XP in a virtual machine for a few programs.

Really, I dont see any point in installing a paid for copy of new
windows on a machine ever again.

The only two things I have found that are still substandard are scanner
and wifi drivers.

If you are lucky, they work. If not, you then do need to spend time
finding out the magic spells.




To some extent, I
think that for what it is, Windows gets a bit of a 'bad press' in
discussions like this. For most people doing just fairly ordinary things
on their computer, Windows, left to its own devices (no pun intended !)
is just fine. It pretty much does what it says on the tin, and in a way
that Joe Average User can get along with.

As does Linux, for less money, faster, and with almost no chance of
getting virusused.

Yes, for sure, it can be a
pain when things go wrong, and sometimes, it doesn't do "computer-y"
things very well, but then that's where things like Linux come into
their own.

For me, the odd Windows problem, and coping with its foibles in some
areas, is far outweighed by it's ability to load and run pretty much
anything written in the world of 'commercial' software, and for most
average computer users, I would suspect that this is the case. Were it
not for Windows, in all its iterations throughout the years, I don't
think that 'home' computing would have come anything like as far as it has.


So how many 'commercial' programs do you actually use?

I use precisely two, in a virtual XP machine. Which with 6MB or RAM runs
as fast as I need.

A


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 21/09/14 19:53, News wrote:
In message , Adrian
writes


Or you could just use LibreOffice like everybody sane.

I have been using ordinary Open Office for years. Would changing to
LibreOffice be worthwhile?

Yes. It's faster, more developed and isn't ORACLE.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 21/09/2014 19:53, News wrote:
In message , Adrian
writes


Or you could just use LibreOffice like everybody sane.

I have been using ordinary Open Office for years. Would changing to
LibreOffice be worthwhile?

Yes, both because of what TNO said, but because it's claimed that all
the good programmers moved over to maintaining LO.

LO is currently the better program of the two for usability and
compatibility with various strange formats, if you need that.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In message , John Williamson
writes

LO is currently the better program of the two for usability and
compatibility with various strange formats, if you need that.

Excellent. Thanks all, for the comments.
--
Graeme

On 20/09/2014 11:36, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:

Andy Burns writes:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171424219178
That's about a 5 year old model

Are they all likely to be that old? Is there an easy way of checking
vintage?

The clue on those ones is that it is a "Pentium D" which pre-dates the
Core and Core Duo processors, and the current Core2 processors, likely
to be a bit more power hungry if leaving it on 24x7.

If Tim wants a better machine I am sure I have some cast off Core2Duo
E7xxx class machines going spare* for the cost of delivery. (you will
need to add your own OS) and possibly HD (although I can lob one of
those in if you want)

* I chucked ten slightly lower spec machines in a skip the other day...
(ten mins later a "scrap metal dealer" was knocking on the door asking
if he could have them!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , John
Rumm writes
On 20/09/2014 11:36, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:

Andy Burns writes:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171424219178
That's about a 5 year old model

Are they all likely to be that old? Is there an easy way of checking
vintage?

The clue on those ones is that it is a "Pentium D" which pre-dates the
Core and Core Duo processors, and the current Core2 processors, likely
to be a bit more power hungry if leaving it on 24x7.

If Tim wants a better machine I am sure I have some cast off Core2Duo
E7xxx class machines going spare* for the cost of delivery. (you will
need to add your own OS) and possibly HD (although I can lob one of
those in if you want)

I have been considering this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STONE-DESK...COMPUTER-WINDO
WS-7-PRO-32-BIT-INTERNET-READY-/271562221742?_trksid=p2054897.l4275


Bit nervous about the DVD rw. I need to read CDs for the photo album:-)
Ignorance on display!


--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:

I have been considering this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271562221742

A few local schools use Stone PCs, they're generally OK

Bit nervous about the DVD rw. I need to read CDs for the photo album:-)
Ignorance on display!

DVD drives will read CDs, and being a DVD writer it will also write CDs.

3 or 4GB of memory would be handy, and an 80GB disk will likely be
half-full by the time Win7 is installed with a swap file and all patches.

In message , Andy
Burns writes
Tim Lamb wrote:

I have been considering this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271562221742

A few local schools use Stone PCs, they're generally OK

Bit nervous about the DVD rw. I need to read CDs for the photo album:-)
Ignorance on display!

DVD drives will read CDs, and being a DVD writer it will also write CDs.

3 or 4GB of memory would be handy, and an 80GB disk will likely be
half-full by the time Win7 is installed with a swap file and all
patches.

How can I tell if the memory can be swapped from the current PC? Will
there be slots available?


--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:

How can I tell if the memory can be swapped from the current PC? Will
there be slots available?

Rule of thumb: By the time you're thinking of replacing a PC, the memory
from the old one won't be suitable for the new one.

Since your old disk is IDE, that probably makes the old memory meet the
rule, but post photos somewhere if you really want to know.

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

About Linux

The only two things I have found that are still substandard are scanner
and wifi drivers.

And audio interface drivers, especially for anything beyond just
listening, and I can't find a virtual keyboard that works properly on a
tablet PC

If you are lucky, they work. If not, you then do need to spend time
finding out the magic spells.

I needed more than magic to get the various audio mixers into any sort
of sense and working with Jack and the various other audio apps. I am
still not at all happy.

But the daughter in law who saw it for the first time yesterday picked
up and used the Ubuntu laptop that sits in the lounge for the family
when they visit, and I'm not sure she noticed it wasn't Windows.

--
Bill

In article , The Natural Philosopher
scribeth thus
On 21/09/14 18:01, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Adrian
scribeth thus
On Sun, 21 Sep 2014 15:00:38 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

But you cant allow for people who have made a pigs ear of their word
docs in the first place.

Well these were one's from academic establishments and I rather doubt
they'd sod them up

wipes tear of laughter
That makes it more likely, not less.

Well these were from more than the one establishment, and some of them
were from people in IT and software..

Its endemic. There is only one class of people who truly understand
typesetting, and that is the print industry. Not even the people who
should - the typesetters themselves - understand the software they use,
and I should know because that was my wife's job - professional Quark
jockey, and the stories she has to tell about receiving work from
colleagues ('just needs a few corrections') that kept her up all night
reformatting and putting in proper style sheets to get a uniform result..

..then tehre was the printer himself who bull****ted us that 'getting a
matte print was only a matter of the paper' before we discovered that in
fact it isn't. It's a matter of using offset litho and not a laser
printer which will always gloss up a paper that is suitable for it..#

(Laser printers fuse powder on TOP of the paper. Offset litho puts real
ink INTO the paper.)

The level of incompetence and basic inability to actually do stuff right
is alarmingly high these days.

;!..


I don't think anyone I know actually understand what any given thing in
a word processor actually does any more.



Yeabut the original point was that she was sent word.doc's and docx from
a lot of institutions and with OO and LO there always were problems with
the Kingston "Office" these disappeared.

So either there are compatibility problems or are they all wrong;!?..

--
Tony Sayer

In message , Tim Lamb
writes
I have been considering this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STONE-DESK...-COMPUTER-WIND
O
WS-7-PRO-32-BIT-INTERNET-READY-/271562221742?_trksid=p2054897.l4275


Bit nervous about the DVD rw. I need to read CDs for the photo album:-)
Ignorance on display!

Does it apply to desktops as it does to laptops, that you should beware
of machines with small amounts of DDR2 memory because of the cost of
upgrading?
--
Bill

On 22/09/2014 10:39, Bill wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

About Linux

The only two things I have found that are still substandard are
scanner and wifi drivers.

And audio interface drivers, especially for anything beyond just
listening, and I can't find a virtual keyboard that works properly on a
tablet PC

The audio interface problems are the main reason I don't use Linux.
Please don't suggest I should choose a different audio interface, as the
ones I use are the best I can afford. That and the Bluetooth non-support.

If you are lucky, they work. If not, you then do need to spend time
finding out the magic spells.

I needed more than magic to get the various audio mixers into any sort
of sense and working with Jack and the various other audio apps. I am
still not at all happy.

You're a few steps past me, then, in that case.

But the daughter in law who saw it for the first time yesterday picked
up and used the Ubuntu laptop that sits in the lounge for the family
when they visit, and I'm not sure she noticed it wasn't Windows.

For office work and t'Interwebs, it's good. If you can get it to talk to
the bluetooth linked 3G phone/ modem, a problem which I've now bypassed
by buying one that links to the computer using Wifi.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 22/09/14 09:57, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Andy
Burns writes
Tim Lamb wrote:

I have been considering this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271562221742

A few local schools use Stone PCs, they're generally OK

Bit nervous about the DVD rw. I need to read CDs for the photo album:-)
Ignorance on display!

DVD drives will read CDs, and being a DVD writer it will also write CDs.

3 or 4GB of memory would be handy, and an 80GB disk will likely be
half-full by the time Win7 is installed with a swap file and all patches.

How can I tell if the memory can be swapped from the current PC? Will
there be slots available?

Sadly over the last few years RAM has gone from DRAM to DDR, to DDR2 and
to DDR3 and IIRC DDR4 is on the way, all with parity/non parity and with
different bus speeds.

In DIMM and SODIMM formats, too.


Meanwhile PCI became AGP for graphics cards, and is now PCI-express. All
mutully incompatible.

Disks went from IDE to ATA to SATA.

Processors went from 32 bit to 64 bit as well.


In short you need to get a clear idea of what you have and what the new
machine needs to say with any certainty.

Which is why when you do get an old machine, its not worth paying a lot
for, or yu may end up with something that cannot be upgraded cheaply to
modern specs.

Since you can buyt a new case/PSU MB graphics cards and RAM for under
220 these days, that puts an upper limit on what such a machine is worth
when ten years old.


In the case of my supplier 'here, take it away for free, if you have
some spare RAM chips in exchange'

I even have an XP home license number on it.





--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 22/09/14 10:12, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:

How can I tell if the memory can be swapped from the current PC? Will
there be slots available?

Rule of thumb: By the time you're thinking of replacing a PC, the memory
from the old one won't be suitable for the new one.

+1

Since your old disk is IDE, that probably makes the old memory meet the
rule, but post photos somewhere if you really want to know.





--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 22/09/14 10:39, Bill wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

About Linux

The only two things I have found that are still substandard are
scanner and wifi drivers.

And audio interface drivers, especially for anything beyond just
listening,

Nope, mine works ok in both modes silutaneously now


and I can't find a virtual keyboard that works properly on a
tablet PC

yes, tablet PCs are a bt too new for linux to have caught upo with yet.


If you are lucky, they work. If not, you then do need to spend time
finding out the magic spells.

I needed more than magic to get the various audio mixers into any sort
of sense and working with Jack and the various other audio apps. I am
still not at all happy.


Yerrs. But Jack is a bit specialised. I tried it and it broke everything
else.

For MOST people who want just skype and listen to sound pre recorded,
linux works fine.



But the daughter in law who saw it for the first time yesterday picked
up and used the Ubuntu laptop that sits in the lounge for the family
when they visit, and I'm not sure she noticed it wasn't Windows.


In fact, most people don't. The menus look a bit different but not
alarmingly so, and frankly who uses menus except to set the thing up?

If we were to say that 'linux (mint?) today is where XP was 5 years ago,
except its faster stabler and nicer and costs nothing,' then I think we
would probably agree.


That is, on a desktop for the vast majority of ordinary users, its
stable familiar and all 'just works'


In fact the one thing I had to do at deep console level was to get rid
of Mint Mates propensity to add in folders called 'My this, 'My that'
and 'My the ****ing other' on the desktop, like wot Windows does.

There is some program that runs at window startup that actually creates
these effing things if they are not present, as well as sticking them on
the desktop.

Its config file needed editing ....





--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 22/09/14 11:20, tony sayer wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
scribeth thus
On 21/09/14 18:01, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Adrian
scribeth thus
On Sun, 21 Sep 2014 15:00:38 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

But you cant allow for people who have made a pigs ear of their word
docs in the first place.

Well these were one's from academic establishments and I rather doubt
they'd sod them up

wipes tear of laughter
That makes it more likely, not less.

Well these were from more than the one establishment, and some of them
were from people in IT and software..

Its endemic. There is only one class of people who truly understand
typesetting, and that is the print industry. Not even the people who
should - the typesetters themselves - understand the software they use,
and I should know because that was my wife's job - professional Quark
jockey, and the stories she has to tell about receiving work from
colleagues ('just needs a few corrections') that kept her up all night
reformatting and putting in proper style sheets to get a uniform result..

..then tehre was the printer himself who bull****ted us that 'getting a
matte print was only a matter of the paper' before we discovered that in
fact it isn't. It's a matter of using offset litho and not a laser
printer which will always gloss up a paper that is suitable for it..#

(Laser printers fuse powder on TOP of the paper. Offset litho puts real
ink INTO the paper.)

The level of incompetence and basic inability to actually do stuff right
is alarmingly high these days.

;!..


I don't think anyone I know actually understand what any given thing in
a word processor actually does any more.



Yeabut the original point was that she was sent word.doc's and docx from
a lot of institutions and with OO and LO there always were problems with
the Kingston "Office" these disappeared.

So either there are compatibility problems or are they all wrong;!?..

They are all wrong.

docx compatibility is pure luck of the draw.

Its been reasonably good for all LO instances reading word that I have
come across.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 22/09/14 11:21, Bill wrote:
In message , Tim Lamb
writes
I have been considering this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STONE-DESK...-COMPUTER-WIND
O
WS-7-PRO-32-BIT-INTERNET-READY-/271562221742?_trksid=p2054897.l4275


Bit nervous about the DVD rw. I need to read CDs for the photo
album:-) Ignorance on display!

Does it apply to desktops as it does to laptops, that you should beware
of machines with small amounts of DDR2 memory because of the cost of
upgrading?

DDR2 aint that bad. I got 4GB for £29.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 22/09/14 13:29, John Williamson wrote:
On 22/09/2014 10:39, Bill wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

About Linux

The only two things I have found that are still substandard are
scanner and wifi drivers.

And audio interface drivers, especially for anything beyond just
listening, and I can't find a virtual keyboard that works properly on a
tablet PC

The audio interface problems are the main reason I don't use Linux.
Please don't suggest I should choose a different audio interface, as the
ones I use are the best I can afford. That and the Bluetooth non-support.

Yep. If you are pushing bleeding edge hardware, then the bleeding
hardware manufactures know they HAVE to get it working under windows.

They wont get it working under OSX, because no one puts non apple cards
into OSX.

They may or may not bother to get it working under Linux.

Usually thats a linux geek in their company who does that.

scanners and printers and sound all have had a chequered history. CUPS
and HP between them solved MOST of the printer problems, and thats
mostly plug and play now.

Sound on standard type chipsets is OK for normal use.

Scanners are still a bit hit and miss. If you get the right scanner its
plkug and play, if wrong, it simply will never work. In between there
are some that can be coaxed to life but not always at full res.







If you are lucky, they work. If not, you then do need to spend time
finding out the magic spells.

I needed more than magic to get the various audio mixers into any sort
of sense and working with Jack and the various other audio apps. I am
still not at all happy.

You're a few steps past me, then, in that case.

But the daughter in law who saw it for the first time yesterday picked
up and used the Ubuntu laptop that sits in the lounge for the family
when they visit, and I'm not sure she noticed it wasn't Windows.

For office work and t'Interwebs, it's good. If you can get it to talk to
the bluetooth linked 3G phone/ modem, a problem which I've now bypassed
by buying one that links to the computer using Wifi.


Bluetooth seems to be nearly working OK in latest releases.

But if you have an ailing XP computer and you just want something like
XP that works, and doesn't cast much if anything, its ideal.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

In message , Andy
Burns writes
Tim Lamb wrote:

I have been considering this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271562221742

A few local schools use Stone PCs, they're generally OK

Bit nervous about the DVD rw. I need to read CDs for the photo album:-)
Ignorance on display!

DVD drives will read CDs, and being a DVD writer it will also write CDs.

3 or 4GB of memory would be handy, and an 80GB disk will likely be
half-full by the time Win7 is installed with a swap file and all
patches.

OK. Offer made to include keyboard and a further 2 gig ram.

Watch this space:-)


--
Tim Lamb

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 22/09/14 09:57, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Andy
Burns writes
Tim Lamb wrote:

I have been considering this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271562221742

A few local schools use Stone PCs, they're generally OK

Bit nervous about the DVD rw. I need to read CDs for the photo album:-)
Ignorance on display!

DVD drives will read CDs, and being a DVD writer it will also write CDs.

3 or 4GB of memory would be handy, and an 80GB disk will likely be
half-full by the time Win7 is installed with a swap file and all patches.

How can I tell if the memory can be swapped from the current PC? Will
there be slots available?

Sadly over the last few years RAM has gone from DRAM to DDR, to DDR2
and to DDR3 and IIRC DDR4 is on the way, all with parity/non parity and
with different bus speeds.

In DIMM and SODIMM formats, too.


Meanwhile PCI became AGP for graphics cards, and is now PCI-express.
All mutully incompatible.

Disks went from IDE to ATA to SATA.

Processors went from 32 bit to 64 bit as well.


In short you need to get a clear idea of what you have and what the
new machine needs to say with any certainty.

Which is why when you do get an old machine, its not worth paying a lot
for, or yu may end up with something that cannot be upgraded cheaply to
modern specs.

Since you can buyt a new case/PSU MB graphics cards and RAM for under
220 these days, that puts an upper limit on what such a machine is
worth when ten years old.


In the case of my supplier 'here, take it away for free, if you have
some spare RAM chips in exchange'

I even have an XP home license number on it.

Offer made on the Stone (including extra ram) I take your point about
vintage and memory.

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Streater wrote:

Having been working with Mint in a VM I'm just surprised how little of
it is configurable from the GUI

I've never tried Mint, more of a Fedora/CentOS person, but the general
trend has been towards dumbing down the UI

Admittedly early configuration GUIs were a mess of techy tickboxes and
weird fields, but you could get stuff done.

Then the simple settings got moved to be in one place, with an
"Advanced" button guarding the scary settings.

Lately it seems to have become "we know best and have set the defaults
for you" if you want to change them you'd better use the CLI.

Gnome3.14 is even less intuitive than Windows8, no taskbar, no start
menu, and if you dare ask how to turn them back expect to get a snarly
reply of "you need to learn not to want those".

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 21/09/14 20:06, Arfa Daily wrote:
I wouldn't dispute that Linux has its uses, but to be fair, it does have
a bit of a reputation as being an 'enthusiasts' operating system, which
is how it came into being in the first place, really.

And so it *was*. But it isn't now.

I still find it doesn't float my boat (last time I tried it was about 6
months ago - Some version of Mint) still find it rather 'awkward' to
use. Ok, partly I'm used to Windows, but I sat down at a Mac running a
recent version of OSX and found that pretty straight forward.

and yes i know I can use different desktops, or whatever they are
called, but I've never really felt the effort was worth it.

I stuck to Windows until the pain of windows exceeded the pain of Linux.


I really don't find Windows a pain - I've installed Win 7 on all sorts
of newish and oldish hardware here and it's always been a painless (the
oly issue was with an old scanner where drivers had not been produced)

snip

So how many 'commercial' programs do you actually use?

One thing I am attached to is Lightroom, there Linux alternatives but I
never liked them enough when I tried, and I didn't liek it's performance
in a VM.

However, thee is an old machine here used moslty for when a gang of my
daughters friends come round and play minecraft, I do have a copy of
Minr on there I soemtiems use.

I use precisely two, in a virtual XP machine. Which with 6MB or RAM
runs as fast as I need.

6MB? :-)
--
Chris French

In message , John Williamson
writes
On 22/09/2014 10:39, Bill wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

About Linux

The only two things I have found that are still substandard are
scanner and wifi drivers.

And audio interface drivers, especially for anything beyond just
listening, and I can't find a virtual keyboard that works properly on a
tablet PC

The audio interface problems are the main reason I don't use Linux.
Please don't suggest I should choose a different audio interface, as
the ones I use are the best I can afford. That and the Bluetooth
non-support.

For Windows users and presumably Mac users as well, I would normally say
to list the audio connector types and audio facilities you want, then
look for an interface to fit. It will almost certainly work. That is not
the case with Linux.
I don't know of, and would be interested to hear of, anyone successfully
using one of the many guitar + phantom power mic input interfaces with
Linux and getting usable latency figures.
I don't really understand why Linux seems to compile drivers into the
kernel or an application like Jack rather than having the simple
hardware-driver-application model like Windows.

If you are lucky, they work. If not, you then do need to spend time
finding out the magic spells.

I needed more than magic to get the various audio mixers into any sort
of sense and working with Jack and the various other audio apps. I am
still not at all happy.

You're a few steps past me, then, in that case.

I don't feel I'm any steps past anyone. I've been trying to evaluate
"Harrison Mixbus" as a comparison between its Linux and Windows
incarnations, and I keep running out of time and patience.

I have to say that I thought the Windows traditional audio mixer was
mediocre, but the Linux normal mixer is just bizarre. Hopeless
labelling, channels disappearing off the screen, recording and playback
in the same mixer and so on. Supersonic howlrounds, here we come.

But we are a bit OT now.
--
Bill

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
tablet PCs are a bt too new for linux to have caught upo with yet.

Hmm, the convertible tablet laptops that I am playing with have been
around since at least the XP tablet edition came out.
I've had Android 4.4 running in a virtual machine here but,
unfortunately, it wasn't one with a touch screen so I couldn't try the
virtual keyboard in that properly.
--
Bill

In message , Huge
writes
On 2014-09-22, Bill wrote:

I don't really understand why Linux seems to compile drivers into the
kernel

It doesn't.

OK, so where are they? I know that I don't know what I'm talking about,
but if I look up, say, the EMU 0202 that I have here and is apparently
one of the better supported usb interfaces, I get led to

http://www.alsa-project.org/main/ind...e-emu10k1-fpga

and it all gets rather heavy for me.

I believe at one stage on one machine I got this device working, but
only at one sample rate and bit depth.

More recently, I've just been trying to use the on-board audio on Lenovo
X-series machines. These seem to expose the not-present docking station
audio channels mixed in with the real ones in the mixer (sometimes
alsa-mixer, sometimes, I think gnome-mixer - I'm writing this from
memory and can't look it up just now).
--
Bill

Bill wrote:

Huge writes

Bill wrote:

I don't really understand why Linux seems to compile drivers into the
kernel

It doesn't.

OK, so where are they?
http://www.alsa-project.org/main/ind...e-emu10k1-fpga

The first paragraph of the page you linked to has the answer, you can
either compile them into the kernel, or you can compile them as kernel
modules which can be loaded supplied separately and loaded after the
system has booted (but they do have to be built for the correct kernel
version).

On 22/09/14 16:17, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

In fact the one thing I had to do at deep console level was to get rid
of Mint Mates propensity to add in folders called 'My this, 'My that'
and 'My the ****ing other' on the desktop, like wot Windows does.

Having been working with Mint in a VM I'm just surprised how little of
it is configurable from the GUI [1]. I actually *want* to have icons on
my desktop for mounted devices, but I'm buggered if I can see any way
to make that happen.


Oh, that happens by default if you turn that feature on.

see 'desktop settings' in mate

I think its pretty similar in cinnamon - no sure about the other wm's



[1] Even worse with vanilla Ubuntu.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 22/09/14 15:20, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Andy
Burns writes
Tim Lamb wrote:

I have been considering this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271562221742

A few local schools use Stone PCs, they're generally OK

Bit nervous about the DVD rw. I need to read CDs for the photo album:-)
Ignorance on display!

DVD drives will read CDs, and being a DVD writer it will also write CDs.

3 or 4GB of memory would be handy, and an 80GB disk will likely be
half-full by the time Win7 is installed with a swap file and all patches.

OK. Offer made to include keyboard and a further 2 gig ram.

Watch this space:-)


Tim. if you are local to me, woc.co.uk is where I got my scrapper computer

And I may be getting another from a friend


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 22/09/14 16:26, Tim Streater wrote:
Sound, ethernet, USB, etc are all
on the motherboard. Everyone has "millions of colours" so no need for
video cards unless you're driving more than two screens. Even my
low-end Mac Mini can drive two screens these days.


umm. Sorry to disappoint you, but onboard intel GFX is not up to driving
3D rendering in real time on a decent screen size.

Neither does a low end MOB feature surround sound or digital audio out

And in my case, the reason the pc was a scrapper was because the onboard
ethernet had blown up :-)

Not the first board with U/S ether I've seen either.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 22/09/14 16:26, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:

Having been working with Mint in a VM I'm just surprised how little of
it is configurable from the GUI

I've never tried Mint, more of a Fedora/CentOS person, but the general
trend has been towards dumbing down the UI

Admittedly early configuration GUIs were a mess of techy tickboxes and
weird fields, but you could get stuff done.

Then the simple settings got moved to be in one place, with an
"Advanced" button guarding the scary settings.

Lately it seems to have become "we know best and have set the defaults
for you" if you want to change them you'd better use the CLI.


Yes.. I also think its gone a bit too far, but in a way its also right,
in that 'we know best; is what an ex windows person will feel
comfortable with, and being able to hack it to exactly what you want is
what an experienced person will do anyway.


By GUI or by file!.

I am getting pretty used to setting mint up now, and it doesn't take me
long to turn it into the way I want it.


Gnome3.14 is even less intuitive than Windows8, no taskbar, no start
menu, and if you dare ask how to turn them back expect to get a snarly
reply of "you need to learn not to want those".


Total ghastliness. That's why I switched to Mint. Mint is gnome 2 look
and feel, built on a gnome 3 toolkit, and designed to be simple and
traditional and good looking.

In other words it (Mate specifically and IIRC cinnamon too) is a screen
with up to 4 panels on the edges, that can have notification
areas,applets, virtual screen switchers or program launchers on em.

Or you can stick launchers on the desktop.

Or you can use the main menu to launch apps. In other words every
possible way to launch and app is there and its up to you what you use.
And the panels can autohide too giving you even MORE screen area

the whole thing is themed, and there are dozens of those around, so you
can select window border styles, colors fonts and the like, where the
controls go, and so on. And which icon sets you use. Indeed, you can if
you are a dab hand at graphics design your own icons and replace the
standard sets..

the biggest problem is finding out where the control are and what they
actually do, but the main thing is out of the box the default is very
familiar to windows (XP) users.

My desktop is slightly OSX like, in looks, but it works like XP with
added goodies.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 22/09/14 16:29, Chris French wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 21/09/14 20:06, Arfa Daily wrote:
I wouldn't dispute that Linux has its uses, but to be fair, it does have
a bit of a reputation as being an 'enthusiasts' operating system, which
is how it came into being in the first place, really.

And so it *was*. But it isn't now.

I still find it doesn't float my boat (last time I tried it was about 6
months ago - Some version of Mint) still find it rather 'awkward' to
use. Ok, partly I'm used to Windows, but I sat down at a Mac running a
recent version of OSX and found that pretty straight forward.

and yes i know I can use different desktops, or whatever they are
called, but I've never really felt the effort was worth it.

I stuck to Windows until the pain of windows exceeded the pain of Linux.


I really don't find Windows a pain - I've installed Win 7 on all sorts
of newish and oldish hardware here and it's always been a painless (the
oly issue was with an old scanner where drivers had not been produced)

snip

So how many 'commercial' programs do you actually use?

One thing I am attached to is Lightroom, there Linux alternatives but I
never liked them enough when I tried, and I didn't liek it's performance
in a VM.

However, thee is an old machine here used moslty for when a gang of my
daughters friends come round and play minecraft, I do have a copy of
Minr on there I soemtiems use.

I use precisely two, in a virtual XP machine. Which with 6MB or RAM
runs as fast as I need.

6MB? :-)
GB. oops.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 22/09/14 15:20, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Andy
Burns writes
Tim Lamb wrote:

I have been considering this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271562221742

A few local schools use Stone PCs, they're generally OK

Bit nervous about the DVD rw. I need to read CDs for the photo album:-)
Ignorance on display!

DVD drives will read CDs, and being a DVD writer it will also write CDs.

3 or 4GB of memory would be handy, and an 80GB disk will likely be
half-full by the time Win7 is installed with a swap file and all patches.

OK. Offer made to include keyboard and a further 2 gig ram.

Watch this space:-)


Tim. if you are local to me, woc.co.uk is where I got my scrapper computer

50 miles!

And I may be getting another from a friend

One on the way:-)

No doubt you will all learn how I get on:-)



--
Tim Lamb

On 22/09/14 16:38, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Andy
Burns wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:

Having been working with Mint in a VM I'm just surprised how little of
it is configurable from the GUI

I've never tried Mint, more of a Fedora/CentOS person, but the general
trend has been towards dumbing down the UI

I can't get rid of stuff out of the sidebar for the File Manager that I
don't want. Like "Music" f'rinstance.

ah ..I found out how to do that..but forgot how. Its tricky.

the blunt instrument is to disable 'user folders update' in startup
applications

The delicate surgery is to edit its main config file and remove that entry.

the program that does this **** is xdg and its main config files are in
/etc/xdg

Viz
/etc/xdg/user-dirs.default here is:

# Default settings for user directories
#
# The values are relative pathnames from the home directory and
# will be translated on a per-path-element basis into the users locale
DESKTOP=Desktop
DOWNLOAD=tempest/Downloads
VIDEOS=Videos
# Another alternative is:
#MUSIC=Documents/Music
#PICTURES=Documents/Pictures
#VIDEOS=Documents/Videos

and
/etc/xdg/user-dirs.conf is

# This controls the behaviour of xdg-user-dirs-update which is run on
user login
# You can also have per-user config in ~/.config/user-dirs.conf, or specify
# the XDG_CONFIG_HOME and/or XDG_CONFIG_DIRS to override this
#

enabled=True

# This sets the filename encoding to use. You can specify an explicit
# encoding, or "locale" which means the encoding of the users locale
# will be used
filename_encoding=UTF-8

you may need to also do nasty things to the same file in
~/.config.users-dirs.dir

# This file is written by xdg-user-dirs-update
# If you want to change or add directories, just edit the line you're
# interested in. All local changes will be retained on the next run
# Format is XDG_xxx_DIR="$HOME/yyy", where yyy is a shell-escaped
# homedir-relative path, or XDG_xxx_DIR="/yyy", where /yyy is an
# absolute path. No other format is supported.
#
XDG_DESKTOP_DIR="$HOME/Desktop"
XDG_DOWNLOAD_DIR="$HOME/tempest/Downloads"
XDG_VIDEOS_DIR="$HOME/Videos"

Anyway on logging out remove all the directories you hate, and they
should stay dead when you restart the window manager..

Not totally enamoured of the 'bookmarks' in the file browser system but
it works ok.


That was one bit of ****e where I had to use a root level text editor.

I think it was pretty much the only one for desktop configs

I did delve into the mire to get instead of the default mint 'blank
screen, then mint logo ' on booting a much more interesting backdrop for
a boot menu, and have it appear by default, and a nicer picture for the
boot process till the x-windows fires up.

And proper console (no x window) fonts at a decent resolution: that's
all about plymouth and grub, and best left alone if you don't know how
to do it.


Apart from that the only other root level wrangling was to get NFS
mounts hard wired into /etc/fstab, and various backup scripts working,
with rsync, but again, its not something the average user would want to
do anyway.

And to fix a work around for ssh sessions timing out. Again, not normal
user stuff.


Nor is slamming 50,000* fonts from the old setup into the new by hand,
to avoid having to install them 'the correct way'

*an exagerration, but there are a lot.




Admittedly early configuration GUIs were a mess of techy tickboxes and
weird fields, but you could get stuff done.

Then the simple settings got moved to be in one place, with an
"Advanced" button guarding the scary settings.

Lately it seems to have become "we know best and have set the defaults
for you" if you want to change them you'd better use the CLI.

Mmm, the usual "blame the user" attitude.

I think that is reasonable. Newbies get what's given, pr0s get to mess
under the hood.

Gnome3.14 is even less intuitive than Windows8, no taskbar, no start
menu, and if you dare ask how to turn them back expect to get a snarly
reply of "you need to learn not to want those".

Apple tried to make OS X more like ios but after a good smack have made
all those things configurable.

I think there is a tacit acceptance finally that fondleslabs are not
desktop workstations, and whilst there is a need to exchange data and
even run the same apps, that is no reason to give them the same look and
feel exactly.

Ive run winders up to XP, osX and linux, and I like mint window system
the best of all of em by a large margin.

Largely because by hook or by crook, you can set it up the way you want it.

Windows XP and OSX are - well pretty much the way they are. You can do a
bit, but not that much really.

I cant answer for after windows XP because I gave up on windows after XP
altogether.

with a huge sigh of relief.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 22/09/14 17:34, Bill wrote:
In message , John Williamson
writes
On 22/09/2014 10:39, Bill wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

About Linux

The only two things I have found that are still substandard are
scanner and wifi drivers.

And audio interface drivers, especially for anything beyond just
listening, and I can't find a virtual keyboard that works properly on a
tablet PC

The audio interface problems are the main reason I don't use Linux.
Please don't suggest I should choose a different audio interface, as
the ones I use are the best I can afford. That and the Bluetooth
non-support.

For Windows users and presumably Mac users as well, I would normally say
to list the audio connector types and audio facilities you want, then
look for an interface to fit. It will almost certainly work. That is not
the case with Linux.
I don't know of, and would be interested to hear of, anyone successfully
using one of the many guitar + phantom power mic input interfaces with
Linux and getting usable latency figures.

Hmm. I am writing one.

Its not brilliant so far, but it looks like it will work

If I need to rewrie te sound device driver I will.. :-)


I don't really understand why Linux seems to compile drivers into the
kernel or an application like Jack rather than having the simple
hardware-driver-application model like Windows.

IT doesn't 'compile drivers into the kernel' They are all loadable
modules same as winders.


Part of them need to be LINKED with the kernel in order to better
communicated with its kernel libaries.



If you are lucky, they work. If not, you then do need to spend time
finding out the magic spells.

I needed more than magic to get the various audio mixers into any sort
of sense and working with Jack and the various other audio apps. I am
still not at all happy.

You're a few steps past me, then, in that case.

I don't feel I'm any steps past anyone. I've been trying to evaluate
"Harrison Mixbus" as a comparison between its Linux and Windows
incarnations, and I keep running out of time and patience.

I have to say that I thought the Windows traditional audio mixer was
mediocre, but the Linux normal mixer is just bizarre. Hopeless
labelling, channels disappearing off the screen, recording and playback
in the same mixer and so on. Supersonic howlrounds, here we come.


Mmm. advanced audio is pretty crap in almost all places.

Which is why I am coding up my 'guitar amp in software' as low as I need
to go.




But we are a bit OT now.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 22/09/14 22:02, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 22/09/14 16:17, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

In fact the one thing I had to do at deep console level was to get rid
of Mint Mates propensity to add in folders called 'My this, 'My that'
and 'My the ****ing other' on the desktop, like wot Windows does.

Having been working with Mint in a VM I'm just surprised how little of
it is configurable from the GUI [1]. I actually *want* to have icons on
my desktop for mounted devices, but I'm buggered if I can see any way
to make that happen.


Oh, that happens by default if you turn that feature on.

see 'desktop settings' in mate

Only for those few listed there. I want to see an icon for any mounted
volume.

then turn that feature

they pop up automagically.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 22/09/14 22:04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/09/14 22:02, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 22/09/14 16:17, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

In fact the one thing I had to do at deep console level was to get
rid
of Mint Mates propensity to add in folders called 'My this, 'My that'
and 'My the ****ing other' on the desktop, like wot Windows does.

Having been working with Mint in a VM I'm just surprised how little of
it is configurable from the GUI [1]. I actually *want* to have
icons on
my desktop for mounted devices, but I'm buggered if I can see any way
to make that happen.


Oh, that happens by default if you turn that feature on.

see 'desktop settings' in mate

Only for those few listed there. I want to see an icon for any mounted
volume.

then turn that feature

they pop up automagically.


see he

http://vps.templar.co.uk/Odds%20and%20Ends/winowman.png

That's mint mate 17...

I just tested it and nfs mounted 7 drives on my remote machine (using a
console script) and they all popped up like mushrooms




--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 22/09/14 13:29, John Williamson wrote:
On 22/09/2014 10:39, Bill wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

About Linux

The only two things I have found that are still substandard are
scanner and wifi drivers.

And audio interface drivers, especially for anything beyond just
listening, and I can't find a virtual keyboard that works properly on a
tablet PC

The audio interface problems are the main reason I don't use Linux.
Please don't suggest I should choose a different audio interface, as the
ones I use are the best I can afford. That and the Bluetooth non-support.

Yep. If you are pushing bleeding edge hardware, then the bleeding hardware
manufactures know they HAVE to get it working under windows.

They wont get it working under OSX, because no one puts non apple cards
into OSX.

They may or may not bother to get it working under Linux.

Usually thats a linux geek in their company who does that.

scanners and printers and sound all have had a chequered history. CUPS and
HP between them solved MOST of the printer problems, and thats mostly plug
and play now.

Sound on standard type chipsets is OK for normal use.

Scanners are still a bit hit and miss. If you get the right scanner its
plkug and play, if wrong, it simply will never work. In between there are
some that can be coaxed to life but not always at full res.



But this is a bit like what I'm saying. I've never had a sound problem with
any audio application that I have ever run on any machine with any version
of Windows. Nor have I ever had a printer or scanner or combo that hasn't
just worked with minimum fuss and pretty much transparent driver
installation from the manufacturer's supplied disc. That is the main
advantage of Windows over other operating systems, for me, and I would
suggest most *average* computer users.

Arfa

On 22/09/14 23:47, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 22/09/14 22:04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/09/14 22:02, Tim Streater wrote:

Only for those few listed there. I want to see an icon for any mounted
volume.

then turn that feature

they pop up automagically.

see he

http://vps.templar.co.uk/Odds%20and%20Ends/winowman.png

That's mint mate 17...

I just tested it and nfs mounted 7 drives on my remote machine (using
a console script) and they all popped up like mushrooms

I've got that ticked. I've got "Computer" but no icon for the hard
drive or for the host's shared volume I mounted in the Terminal.

Odd. that suggest that the daemon that detects mounted volumes in not
running. (dbus?) Try unticking everything, rebooting, and then reticking
what you want.

There is some evidence of issues with CIFS/samba style 'windows' mounts.


What about inserting a dvd or a thumb drive?

BTW, does Mint have anything resembling Visual Basic? I want to make a
double-clickable executable that can run a script, get the exit code
from the script, and if required put up an alert panel with a message.


Mm. python is probably your best bet for that.

http://www.redhat.com/magazine/012oc...atures/python/

the main problem is that even with GTK, actually opening a window is a
bit opaque (sic!)



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 22/09/14 22:19, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 22/09/14 16:38, Tim Streater wrote:

Not totally enamoured of the 'bookmarks' in the file browser system
but it works ok.

I've become used, on OS X, to just drag/dropping something in or out of
the side bar.

Mmm, the usual "blame the user" attitude.

I think that is reasonable. Newbies get what's given, pr0s get to
mess under the hood.

No, that's not what I'm used to. Newbies get what's given, but it
should be possible to modify quite a lot without having to use the
terminal.

It is. Certainly more is accessible than in windows XP which is the last
version I am used to.

regedit., sigh. When all else fails use regedit, and mess up the one and
only system wide config file on which everything depenbds.,

When I said 'mess under the hood' I don't mean they had to disassemble
the engine.

the most man hours in Mint have gone into writing gui apps that access
the config files.




Gnome3.14 is even less intuitive than Windows8, no taskbar, no start
menu, and if you dare ask how to turn them back expect to get a snarly
reply of "you need to learn not to want those".

Apple tried to make OS X more like ios but after a good smack have made
all those things configurable.

I think there is a tacit acceptance finally that fondleslabs are not
desktop workstations, and whilst there is a need to exchange data and
even run the same apps, that is no reason to give them the same look
and feel exactly.

Well quite.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll