Anyone see this yesterday.

oldish story it seems.

http://www.totalelectricaltraining.c...lations-seized

Why would they bother using fake figures, why don;t they just photocopy the genuine product and then fake it, all seems rather strange to me.

On 12/08/2014 13:49, whisky-dave wrote:

Anyone see this yesterday.

oldish story it seems.

http://www.totalelectricaltraining.c...lations-seized

Why would they bother using fake figures, why don;t they just photocopy the genuine product and then fake it, all seems rather strange to me.



And also the on-site guide, it seems.

Apparently genuine logarithm tables used to contain deliberate errors,
to trap forgers; and OS maps include things which are not there.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...


Anyone see this yesterday.

oldish story it seems.

http://www.totalelectricaltraining.c...lations-seized

Why would they bother using fake figures, why don;t they just photocopy the
genuine product and then fake it, all seems rather strange to me.

Probably scan and OCR the original. OCR not 100% accurate yet.

In article , newshound
wrote:
On 12/08/2014 13:49, whisky-dave wrote:

Anyone see this yesterday.

oldish story it seems.

http://www.totalelectricaltraining.c...lations-seized

Why would they bother using fake figures, why don;t they just photocopy
the genuine product and then fake it, all seems rather strange to me.



And also the on-site guide, it seems.

Apparently genuine logarithm tables used to contain deliberate errors, to
trap forgers; and OS maps include things which are not there.

Near us, the OS map shows the location of a War Memorial. A recent survey
on behalf of the local council refers to the memorial. It rather shows the
survey was not done on the ground since the War Memorial hasn't been there
for over 50 years.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

In article ,
Richard wrote:

Probably scan and OCR the original. OCR not 100% accurate yet.

Or maybe they used this photocopier:

http://www.dkriesel.com/en/blog/2013...hen_sca nning

-- Richard

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 1:49:32 PM UTC+1, whisky-dave wrote:

http://www.totalelectricaltraining.c...lations-seized


"If an electrician were to follow the so called 'regulations' given in this fake book, it could lead to electrocution, fire and/or possibly spumones untimely death."

Spumones?

In article ,
newshound writes:
On 12/08/2014 13:49, whisky-dave wrote:

Anyone see this yesterday.

oldish story it seems.

http://www.totalelectricaltraining.c...lations-seized

Why would they bother using fake figures, why don;t they just photocopy the genuine product and then fake it, all seems rather strange to me.

or start with an electronic copy.

It's an example of a publication which is way over-priced and effectively
holds electricians to ransom by being single-sourced, so it's a prime
target for a forgery, as IET/BS effectively make it so lucrative to do so.

And also the on-site guide, it seems.

Apparently genuine logarithm tables used to contain deliberate errors,
to trap forgers; and OS maps include things which are not there.

Didn't need to put deliberate errors in - it was impossible to produce
mathematical tables without lots of accidental transcription errors.

That was the whole point of Babbage's difference engine - it directly
produced the plaster casts for the lead printing blocks so there was
no opportunity for any transcription errors, only Babbage couldn't
afford to build enough of it, so the problem persisted for almost all
the years mathematical tables were printed.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 12/08/14 14:50, Richard Tobin wrote:
In article ,
Richard wrote:

Probably scan and OCR the original. OCR not 100% accurate yet.

Or maybe they used this photocopier:

http://www.dkriesel.com/en/blog/2013...hen_sca nning

Yup, had two of those machines with those same strange problems.

Not too convenient for the legal* company these monster machines were
installed in - we had printer support engineers onsite for days trying
lots of things hardware & software to no avail.

* yup, legal. Folks that count on every scrap of printed information
being exactly right....

--
Adrian C

mike put finger to keyboard:

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 1:49:32 PM UTC+1, whisky-dave wrote:

http://www.totalelectricaltraining.c...-17th-edition-
wiring-regulations-seized


"If an electrician were to follow the so called 'regulations' given in
this fake book, it could lead to electrocution, fire and/or possibly
spumones untimely death."

Spumones?

The little-known Ramones tribute band.

On Tuesday, 12 August 2014 15:31:05 UTC+1, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,

newshound writes:

On 12/08/2014 13:49, whisky-dave wrote:


Anyone see this yesterday.


oldish story it seems.



http://www.totalelectricaltraining.c...lations-seized



Why would they bother using fake figures, why don;t they just photocopy the genuine product and then fake it, all seems rather strange to me.



or start with an electronic copy.

I bet they'd charge more for that. ;-)




It's an example of a publication which is way over-priced and effectively
holds electricians to ransom by being single-sourced, so it's a prime
target for a forgery, as IET/BS effectively make it so lucrative to do so..

I agree they said it cost £80 a copy.


One error was that the tables indicated you needed 35mm trunking whioch isn;t made in 35mm sizes, perhapos it meant 32mm.

And also the on-site guide, it seems.



Apparently genuine logarithm tables used to contain deliberate errors,
to trap forgers; and OS maps include things which are not there.


I heard that in certain areas sich as docks german spies had submitted moire detailed maps to the Gernams than the OS maps did to our maps.

On 12/08/2014 16:46, whisky-dave wrote:
...
I heard that in certain areas sich as docks german spies had submitted moire detailed maps to the Gernams than the OS maps did to our maps.


In which war? SFAIK, German documents confirm that in WW2 we intercepted
and either executed or turned every spy the Germans sent against us.

--
Colin Bignell

Jethro_uk wrote:
Apparently genuine logarithm tables used to contain deliberate errors,
to trap forgers; and OS maps include things which are not there.

When I worked in logistics software, the digital maps manager told me the
OS were *very* proactive about their copyright, and caught many dodgier
(we paid for our maps) outfits out with minute features all over their
maps.

I just feel that as the OS is (was?) "ours" we should have access to
their information as of right. Anyway the information is there for
anyone to go and see, it's "on the ground" as it were.

.... OpenMaps anyone? :-)

--
Chris Green
·

On 12/08/2014 18:12, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , wrote:

Jethro_uk wrote:
Apparently genuine logarithm tables used to contain deliberate
errors,
to trap forgers; and OS maps include things which are not there.
When I worked in logistics software, the digital maps manager told
me the OS were *very* proactive about their copyright, and caught
many dodgier (we paid for our maps) outfits out with minute features
all over their maps.
I just feel that as the OS is (was?) "ours" we should have access to
their information as of right.

This is, and always was, cock. If you didn't have shares in it then you
didn't own any of it. And even if you do own shares in a company, does
that entitle you to their products free of charge?


Ordnance Survey is a government department so, in a sense, we do own it.

--
Colin Bignell

Tim Streater wrote:
In article , wrote:

Jethro_uk wrote:
Apparently genuine logarithm tables used to contain deliberate errors,
to trap forgers; and OS maps include things which are not there.

When I worked in logistics software, the digital maps manager told me the
OS were *very* proactive about their copyright, and caught many dodgier
(we paid for our maps) outfits out with minute features all over their
maps.

I just feel that as the OS is (was?) "ours" we should have access to
their information as of right.

This is, and always was, cock. If you didn't have shares in it then you
didn't own any of it. And even if you do own shares in a company, does
that entitle you to their products free of charge?

It wasn't originally "a company" it was part of government.

--
Chris Green
·

In article , wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , wrote:

Jethro_uk wrote:
Apparently genuine logarithm tables used to contain deliberate
errors, to trap forgers; and OS maps include things which are not
there.

When I worked in logistics software, the digital maps manager told
me the OS were *very* proactive about their copyright, and caught
many dodgier (we paid for our maps) outfits out with minute
features all over their maps.

I just feel that as the OS is (was?) "ours" we should have access to
their information as of right.

This is, and always was, cock. If you didn't have shares in it then you
didn't own any of it. And even if you do own shares in a company, does
that entitle you to their products free of charge?

It wasn't originally "a company" it was part of government.

It was originally part of the War Office (army). It's now an Agency, but
there are plans to "privatise" it.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 12/08/2014 18:54, wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , wrote:

Jethro_uk wrote:
Apparently genuine logarithm tables used to contain deliberate errors,
to trap forgers; and OS maps include things which are not there.

When I worked in logistics software, the digital maps manager told me the
OS were *very* proactive about their copyright, and caught many dodgier
(we paid for our maps) outfits out with minute features all over their
maps.

I just feel that as the OS is (was?) "ours" we should have access to
their information as of right.

This is, and always was, cock. If you didn't have shares in it then you
didn't own any of it. And even if you do own shares in a company, does
that entitle you to their products free of charge?

It wasn't originally "a company" it was part of government.


It still is: a non-ministerial department.

--
Colin Bignell

In article , wrote:

I just feel that as the OS is (was?) "ours" we should have access to
their information as of right.

Though I generally agree with you, I can see the argument against.

A few people and companies will make extensive use of the information,
while most will make very little, if any. Why should the few be
subsidised by the many?

-- Richard

"newshound" wrote in message
...
On 12/08/2014 13:49, whisky-dave wrote:

Anyone see this yesterday.

oldish story it seems.

http://www.totalelectricaltraining.c...lations-seized

Why would they bother using fake figures, why don;t they just photocopy
the genuine product and then fake it, all seems rather strange to me.



And also the on-site guide, it seems.

Apparently genuine logarithm tables used to contain deliberate errors, to
trap forgers; and OS maps include things which are not there.

I can see that a slightly incorrect kink in the road isn't going to kill
anybody

but a deliberately wrong figure in a log table just might :-(

tim

On 12/08/2014 13:49, whisky-dave wrote:

Anyone see this yesterday.

oldish story it seems.

http://www.totalelectricaltraining.c...lations-seized

Why would they bother using fake figures, why don;t they just
photocopy the genuine product and then fake it, all seems rather
strange to me.




Its an OCR error.
They don't photocopy it, they print it.

On 12/08/2014 15:09, mike wrote:
On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 1:49:32 PM UTC+1, whisky-dave wrote:

http://www.totalelectricaltraining.c...lations-seized



"If an electrician were to follow the so called 'regulations' given
in this fake book, it could lead to electrocution, fire and/or
possibly spumones untimely death."

there weren't any dangerous mistakes, if there were they would have used
one as an example.

On 12/08/2014 13:53, newshound wrote:
Apparently genuine logarithm tables used to contain deliberate errors,
to trap forgers; and OS maps include things which are not there.

One house I used to live in, when you viewed even the very detailed
maps, had the house mis-numbered. They had put numbers on something like
one in five of the houses in a series of terraces, and somewhere the
numbering went wrong.

Always wondered if that was one of their deliberate ones? After all, it
was really easy to work out what they should have been.

--
Rod

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 20:29:31 +0100, Dennis@home wrote:

there weren't any dangerous mistakes, if there were they would have used
one as an example.

There was one about cable sizing but can't remember if it was 35
changed to 25 or the other way round. May have been in the fake
Onsite Guide.

What struck me is the inference that every installation is worked out
individually from the Regs/On Site guide and not done, as we all
know, by "rule of thumb". Rings 2.5, lights 1 (or 1.5 if it's "big"),
cookers 6 etc...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 12/08/2014 18:12, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , wrote:

Jethro_uk wrote:
Apparently genuine logarithm tables used to contain deliberate
errors,
to trap forgers; and OS maps include things which are not there.
When I worked in logistics software, the digital maps manager told
me the OS were *very* proactive about their copyright, and caught
many dodgier (we paid for our maps) outfits out with minute features
all over their maps.
I just feel that as the OS is (was?) "ours" we should have access to
their information as of right.

This is, and always was, cock. If you didn't have shares in it then you
didn't own any of it. And even if you do own shares in a company, does
that entitle you to their products free of charge?

Not so much that, more that copyright law is all cock. It's law to
protect business interest and profit at the expense of consumers and
ordinary people. Unsuprising that it makes no sense in ordinary human
and moral terms.

Tim W

"Nightjar wrote in message
...

On 12/08/2014 16:46, whisky-dave wrote:
..
I heard that in certain areas sich as docks german spies had submitted
moire detailed maps to the Gernams than the OS maps did to our maps.


In which war? SFAIK, German documents confirm that in WW2 we intercepted
and either executed or turned every spy the Germans sent against us.

Ah. But we didn't get the Gernam ones. They were cunningly concealed within
the moire patterns.

Richard Tobin wrote:
In article , wrote:

I just feel that as the OS is (was?) "ours" we should have access to
their information as of right.

Though I generally agree with you, I can see the argument against.

A few people and companies will make extensive use of the information,
while most will make very little, if any. Why should the few be
subsidised by the many?

That argument could be applied to the NHS and lots of other 'free'
services. Some poeple *do* apply this argument to the NHS etc. but
I'm definitely in favour of us all paying for things like this even
though a small minority benefit far more than others.

--
Chris Green
·

On 13/08/2014 08:50, Tim w wrote:
....
Not so much that, more that copyright law is all cock. It's law to
protect business interest and profit at the expense of consumers and
ordinary people. Unsuprising that it makes no sense in ordinary human
and moral terms.

It exists to protect ordinary people, like artists and writers, who
would have no right to earn money from their efforts if they did not
have copyright in their works.

--
Colin Bignell

In article ,
says...


Apparently genuine logarithm tables used to contain deliberate errors,
to trap forgers; and OS maps include things which are not there.

The Landranger map of the Isle of Wight contains a number of names (of the
cartographers, presumably) embedded in the cliffs on the SE coast of the
island ...

(I can't access the map on-line at the moment, so can't provided a link to
the precise area.)

--

Terry

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On 13/08/2014 11:33, Terry Casey wrote:
The Landranger map of the Isle of Wight contains a number of names (of the
cartographers, presumably) embedded in the cliffs on the SE coast of the
island ...

(I can't access the map on-line at the moment, so can't provided a link to
the precise area.)

Bing maps have an OS option.

Andy

In article , wrote:

A few people and companies will make extensive use of the information,
while most will make very little, if any. Why should the few be
subsidised by the many?

That argument could be applied to the NHS and lots of other 'free'
services.

I don't think the NHS is at all similar. No-one makes heavy use of
NHS services to run a business in the way that commercial users of
the OS do. And free access for individual enthusiasts is more like
free cakes than free health care.

But as I said, I can merely see the argument, not agree with it.
Making the OS data universally available is likely to have benefits
for the many, even if only the few are directly involved, as people
come up with new applications that would not have been thought of - or
thought of so soon - otherwise.

-- Richard

/Its an OCR error.
They don't photocopy it, they print it. /q

Not an OCR error. In the tests it was turned off....

Jim K

On Wed, 13 Aug 2014 11:51:20 +0100, Vir Campestris
wrote:

On 13/08/2014 11:33, Terry Casey wrote:
The Landranger map of the Isle of Wight contains a number of names (of the
cartographers, presumably) embedded in the cliffs on the SE coast of the
island ...

(I can't access the map on-line at the moment, so can't provided a link to
the precise area.)

Bing maps have an OS option.

Andy

So does streetmap.co.uk
--
Dave W

On 13/08/2014 08:30, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 20:29:31 +0100, Dennis@home wrote:

there weren't any dangerous mistakes, if there were they would have used
one as an example.

There was one about cable sizing but can't remember if it was 35
changed to 25 or the other way round. May have been in the fake
Onsite Guide.

I think they were talking about capacity of conduits, so its not going
to make any difference as you can't get 35 mm conduit anyway.


What struck me is the inference that every installation is worked out
individually from the Regs/On Site guide and not done, as we all
know, by "rule of thumb". Rings 2.5, lights 1 (or 1.5 if it's "big"),
cookers 6 etc...


What gets me is how they are stated as the regs when they are just the
*minimum* standard allowed.
There are many ways to do stuff better than the regs and without costing
much more.

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 13:34:46 +0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
wrote:

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 13:53:44 +0100, newshound wrote:

On 12/08/2014 13:49, whisky-dave wrote:

Anyone see this yesterday.

oldish story it seems.

http://www.totalelectricaltraining.c...-17th-edition-
wiring-regulations-seized

Why would they bother using fake figures, why don;t they just photocopy
the genuine product and then fake it, all seems rather strange to me.



And also the on-site guide, it seems.

Apparently genuine logarithm tables used to contain deliberate errors,
to trap forgers; and OS maps include things which are not there.

When I worked in logistics software, the digital maps manager told me the
OS were *very* proactive about their copyright, and caught many dodgier
(we paid for our maps) outfits out with minute features all over their
maps.

This is ringing a very strong QI bell ....

From the "Elephant in the room" series.
--
J B Good

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 07:09:24 -0700 (PDT), mike
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 1:49:32 PM UTC+1, whisky-dave wrote:

http://www.totalelectricaltraining.c...lations-seized


"If an electrician were to follow the so called 'regulations' given in this fake book, it could lead to electrocution, fire and/or possibly spumones untimely death."

Spumones?

Yeah, that had me 'foxed' for a few seconds too before I figured it
to be a typo for "someone's".
--
J B Good

On Wednesday, August 13, 2014 4:15:21 PM UTC+1, Dennis@home wrote:
I think they were talking about capacity of conduits, so its not going
to make any difference as you can't get 35 mm conduit anyway.

Maybe if enough people ask for it (because it's in the Regs) someone'll start selling it on ebay.

Owain

On 13/08/2014 18:21, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 13, 2014 4:15:21 PM UTC+1, Dennis@home wrote:
I think they were talking about capacity of conduits, so its not going
to make any difference as you can't get 35 mm conduit anyway.

Maybe if enough people ask for it (because it's in the Regs) someone'll start selling it on ebay.


35mm conduit wouldn't be much of a problem - just relabel 1" bore steel
pipe, which is 35mm OD. Some of the conduit fittings might be more
difficult though.


--
Colin Bignell

In article ,
lid says...

In article ,
says...


Apparently genuine logarithm tables used to contain deliberate errors,
to trap forgers; and OS maps include things which are not there.

The Landranger map of the Isle of Wight contains a number of names (of the
cartographers, presumably) embedded in the cliffs on the SE coast of the
island ...

(I can't access the map on-line at the moment, so can't provided a link to
the precise area.)

Ah, back in business, so here we go:

http://streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=447...7280&A=Y&Z=120

Just right of 'Whale Chine' you'll find MIKE and just above 'Blackgang'
you'll find BILL!

I think there are a few more if you look for them.

--

Terry

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On 13/08/2014 09:07, Richard wrote:
"Nightjar wrote in message
...

On 12/08/2014 16:46, whisky-dave wrote:
..
I heard that in certain areas sich as docks german spies had
submitted moire detailed maps to the Gernams than the OS maps did to
our maps.


In which war? SFAIK, German documents confirm that in WW2 we
intercepted and either executed or turned every spy the Germans sent
against us.

Ah. But we didn't get the Gernam ones. They were cunningly concealed
within the moire patterns.

I guess they were dropped by parachute, silk, of course. Can produce
fantastic moires.

--
Rod

On 12/08/2014 15:09, mike wrote:
On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 1:49:32 PM UTC+1, whisky-dave wrote:

http://www.totalelectricaltraining.c...lations-seized


"If an electrician were to follow the so called 'regulations' given in this fake book, it could lead to electrocution, fire and/or possibly spumones untimely death."

And the mistake they made most of 'would have led to oversized cable and
a more expensive installation'. I can see it might be a more expensive
installation, but wouldn't it be a safer installation?

--
F

On Wed, 13 Aug 2014 19:52:12 +0100, Terry Casey wrote:

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...


Apparently genuine logarithm tables used to contain deliberate errors,
to trap forgers; and OS maps include things which are not there.

The Landranger map of the Isle of Wight contains a number of names (of the
cartographers, presumably) embedded in the cliffs on the SE coast of the
island ...

(I can't access the map on-line at the moment, so can't provided a link to
the precise area.)

Ah, back in business, so here we go:

http://streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=447...7280&A=Y&Z=120

Just right of 'Whale Chine' you'll find MIKE and just above 'Blackgang'
you'll find BILL!

I think there are a few more if you look for them.


http://streetmap.co.uk/idmap.srf?x=4...p=ids.srf&lm=0

Trevor and Robin plus someone else to the left of Robin

The strategically positioned contour line between the L and I might amuse some

http://streetmap.co.uk/idmap.srf?x=3...p=ids.srf&lm=0




--