On 10/03/2013 17:15, Steve Firth wrote:
"Dave Liquorice" wrote:
[snip]

The only charity that gets any money out of me is the Great North Air
Ambulance via their lottery, I might win something or I might need their
services and I find it disgusting that all the Air Ambulance Services are
not funded from central government via the NHS or what ever.

I've given money to the RNLI for years, another charity that deserves
support.

That's true as there aren't many alternatives to having life boats.


I feel that the country needs a service like the RNLI to support
ambulances, air ambulances and paramedics. That is, an organisation
structured like the RNLI capable of specifying and providing the necessary
vehicles, crew training and management services funded entirely by
charitable donation.

The RNLI was, briefly, a government funded organisation. It was a disaster
and the RNLI ended up opting to go back to charitable status. It just works
better. Get it government funded and it will end up under the thumb of some
moron like dennis.


Do you want to quote stats that actually show how many lives are saved
by air ambulances?
There are plenty for the RNLI.

On 10/03/2013 21:43, SteveW wrote:

Ours is currently 90 seconds away, but the trust want to close it and
send everyone to one 25 minutes away - assuming no hold-ups. Ours is
also close to the Trafford Centre, the M60 and the M62 (lots of
accidents happen around this junction and a fair few people jump from
the motorway bridge - some survive), the other is close to a different
part of the M60 and the M56.

SteveW


But what use is an A&E unit 90 seconds away if the staff can't cope with
the A&Es?
Sure you get good stats for arrival times but that's about it.

If you really do need to have 4m of armco removed from your body
following a crash the sort of A&E currently about is not going to cope.
the idea is to have minor injury units (broken arms and stuff like that)
scattered about and major trauma units less scattered about.

"dennis@home" wrote:
[snip]

Do you want to quote stats that actually show how many lives are saved by air ambulances?
There are plenty for the RNLI.

There are plenty for air ambulances. Only a ****ing moron would attempt to
suggest by sneering that the stats are either hard to find or non-existent.


The Air Ambulance Service Annual Situation Audit shows 24 helicopters, an
average of 857 lives saved per helicopter per year, so 20,568 lives per
year.

Are you planning to stop stealing oxygen anytime soon pennis?

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
"dennis@home" wrote:
[snip]

Do you want to quote stats that actually show how many lives are saved by
air ambulances?
There are plenty for the RNLI.

There are plenty for air ambulances. Only a ****ing moron would attempt to
suggest by sneering that the stats are either hard to find or
non-existent.


The Air Ambulance Service Annual Situation Audit shows 24 helicopters, an
average of 857 lives saved per helicopter per year, so 20,568 lives per
year.

Are you planning to stop stealing oxygen anytime soon pennis?

Very doubtful I think.

SteveW wrote:

I write Engineering documents and spend a lot of time and effort
eliminating ambiguity and possible misinterpretation. I want my
documents to inform a supplier clearly what is wanted, without any doubt
or loopholes. The massed intelligences of government are surely able to
achieve the same end when preparing legislation, unless they choose not to.

I have been in the same position, and echo your point. However,
the problem sometimes seems to be that the experts who draught
legislation often see their work hacked to bits as it is
subsequently debated and endlessly amended.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On 10/03/2013 21:48, SteveW wrote:
On 10/03/2013 10:13, The Moron Handyman wrote:

8


The Denboi idiot strikes again. Helicopters have two useful functions,
1) being that they can get to remote or difficult areas faster and 2)
that they can get the patient to hospital faster.

3) They can transport patients with back or neck injuries without the
bumps of road transport. Although you could consider that part of 2 by
having an ambulance drive at a crawl.

SteveW


So now you want air ambulances at *all* crashes, etc. as the patient may
have a neck or back injury.

On 10/03/2013 22:21, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 21:48:52 +0000, SteveW wrote:

3) They can transport patients with back or neck injuries without the
bumps of road transport.

You can get some quite nasty vibrations in a helicopter, particulary in
hover but generally yes a smoother journey than some potholed A road. And
cornering doesn't shove you sideways like it does in a car.


The other things that some appear to forget include..

They can't always land next to the patient and they have to be
transported to the helicopter often by an ambulance.

They can't fly in bad weather so you have to maintain a full road
ambulance cover even if you have air ambulances.

Many can't operate at night so don't have an accident at night.

You could have an extra 20 - 30 paramedics on bikes for the cost of one
air ambulance that is usable for about 60% of the time, just think of
how many heart attack victims that would save.

On 11/03/2013 00:07, dennis@home wrote:
On 10/03/2013 21:43, SteveW wrote:

Ours is currently 90 seconds away, but the trust want to close it and
send everyone to one 25 minutes away - assuming no hold-ups. Ours is
also close to the Trafford Centre, the M60 and the M62 (lots of
accidents happen around this junction and a fair few people jump from
the motorway bridge - some survive), the other is close to a different
part of the M60 and the M56.

SteveW


But what use is an A&E unit 90 seconds away if the staff can't cope with
the A&Es?
Sure you get good stats for arrival times but that's about it.

If you really do need to have 4m of armco removed from your body
following a crash the sort of A&E currently about is not going to cope.
the idea is to have minor injury units (broken arms and stuff like that)
scattered about and major trauma units less scattered about.


There is some logic to that approach in that not every town can have a
full trauma unit. And concentration of skills and resources can have
advantages.

But it also has its own considerable issues. Such as, on average the
sickest patients will have to travel further/take longer to get there.

And the cost of getting to a suitable location is becoming more of an
issue. If I hurt myself beyond the local GP-led minor injuries unit's
capabilities, I quite possibly need to get a taxi, which is a not
inconsiderable cost for two 15-mile journeys. And that cost is falling
on the people here so does not show in NHS figures.

The current advice leaflet urges you to take most people to A&E
yourself. A quick dash to a local hospital, maybe a couple of miles
away, is one thing. Indeed I was able to get myself there fine last time
I needed some help. But once you set out on a fifteen mile cross-country
trip, you really have to hope the person does not deteriorate, that your
initial assessment was good enough. And when in doubt, you are more
likely to call an ambulance - which becomes an increase in NHS costs.
But from a different budget.

--
Rod

On 11/03/2013 00:35, Steve Firth wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote:
[snip]

Do you want to quote stats that actually show how many lives are saved by air ambulances?
There are plenty for the RNLI.

There are plenty for air ambulances. Only a ****ing moron would attempt to
suggest by sneering that the stats are either hard to find or non-existent.


The Air Ambulance Service Annual Situation Audit shows 24 helicopters, an
average of 857 lives saved per helicopter per year, so 20,568 lives per
year.

Are you planning to stop stealing oxygen anytime soon pennis?

I would further point out that there are only around ten or twelve
spinal injury centres in the whole of the UK and Ireland. Availability
of helicopters to transfer patients from scenes of accidents, or other
units, to these specialist units is inherent in the justification for
having so few.

--
Rod

On 11/03/2013 08:17, polygonum wrote:


Our minor injuries unit, intriguingly, offers to cope with suspected
fractures. So if you know it to be a fracture you have to go elsewhere?

--
Rod

On Fri, 8 Mar 2013 20:16:19 -0000, Sam Plusnet wrote:

In article ,
says...

"Sam Plusnet" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

snip lots more

It is unlawful to make direct marketing calls to individuals who
have indicated that they do not want to receive such calls. "


Which is why many of the cold calls I get (despite the TPS) claim to be
"a survey" or "reminding me I still haven't claimed..." etc. etc.


It does not matter what they "pretend" the call is about. If the ultimate
aim is to sell something then it's banned

i.e. enough wriggle-room (in their view) to evade legislation.


No it doesn't. They may think that it does, but it doesn't


Possibly, but since their livelihood depends upon it, I suspect that
they've spent more time thinking about this topic than you or I.

It might be interesting to determine how a judge would view matters -
but not interesting enough for me to attack this.

IMHO the problem is with enforcement. The rules are clear but
companies think they can get away with breaking the rules because they
can.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 00:07:40 +0000, dennis@home wrote:

the idea is to have minor injury units (broken arms and stuff like
that) scattered about and major trauma units less scattered about.

Wrong again, Minor Injury Units don't set broken bones, you need a proper
fracture clinic for that. They will look at someone that may have a
broken bone and decide if an x-ray is required to confirm or if it really
is broken, by feel/what the patient is saying and how the injury occured
etc. A Minor Injurys unit may have a x-ray machine but may not have a
24/7 radiographer...

Minor Injurys Units deal with bumps, cuts requiring stiches, removal of
small objects from eyes, sprains, etc and possibly more importantly
triage as above.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 11/03/2013 08:17, polygonum wrote:

The current advice leaflet urges you to take most people to A&E
yourself. A quick dash to a local hospital, maybe a couple of miles
away, is one thing. Indeed I was able to get myself there fine last time
I needed some help. But once you set out on a fifteen mile cross-country
trip, you really have to hope the person does not deteriorate, that your
initial assessment was good enough. And when in doubt, you are more
likely to call an ambulance - which becomes an increase in NHS costs.
But from a different budget.


I would say that if you are unsure about the condition of the patient
you need to call an ambulance anyway.
they will quickly asses if there is a real need and dispatch an
ambulance if needed.
they will probably dispatch one if the need isn't critical and they
aren't all busy waiting at the local A&E (after all its training anyway).

On 11/03/2013 09:13, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 00:07:40 +0000, dennis@home wrote:

the idea is to have minor injury units (broken arms and stuff like
that) scattered about and major trauma units less scattered about.

Wrong again, Minor Injury Units don't set broken bones, you need a proper
fracture clinic for that. They will look at someone that may have a
broken bone and decide if an x-ray is required to confirm or if it really
is broken, by feel/what the patient is saying and how the injury occured
etc. A Minor Injurys unit may have a x-ray machine but may not have a
24/7 radiographer...

Minor Injurys Units deal with bumps, cuts requiring stiches, removal of
small objects from eyes, sprains, etc and possibly more importantly
triage as above.


That depends on the minor injuries unit and what staff they have.

On 11/03/2013 00:35, Steve Firth wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote:
[snip]

Do you want to quote stats that actually show how many lives are saved by air ambulances?
There are plenty for the RNLI.

There are plenty for air ambulances. Only a ****ing moron would attempt to
suggest by sneering that the stats are either hard to find or non-existent.


The Air Ambulance Service Annual Situation Audit shows 24 helicopters, an
average of 857 lives saved per helicopter per year, so 20,568 lives per
year.

Go on then show the stats that say they would have died if there hadn't
been an air ambulance.

Also show the stats that prove they weren't saved by the people on the
ground before the air ambulance arrived.

On 11/03/2013 11:05, dennis@home wrote:
On 11/03/2013 08:17, polygonum wrote:

The current advice leaflet urges you to take most people to A&E
yourself. A quick dash to a local hospital, maybe a couple of miles
away, is one thing. Indeed I was able to get myself there fine last time
I needed some help. But once you set out on a fifteen mile cross-country
trip, you really have to hope the person does not deteriorate, that your
initial assessment was good enough. And when in doubt, you are more
likely to call an ambulance - which becomes an increase in NHS costs.
But from a different budget.


I would say that if you are unsure about the condition of the patient
you need to call an ambulance anyway.
they will quickly asses if there is a real need and dispatch an
ambulance if needed.
they will probably dispatch one if the need isn't critical and they
aren't all busy waiting at the local A&E (after all its training anyway).

No-one is ever sure about a person's condition.

My experience of calling for an ambulance was that the process took as
long as it would have taken to drive to the nearby hospital. (Though
that case was something which needed a crew and utterly confused both
them and the doctors at A&E.)

Last time I needed help was a bad cut. I hoped it looked like more blood
than it really was and there wasn't an artery about to lose much more
blood. And I drove myself. But I would have been very much less sure if
I had a 15 mile trip ahead. (Yes - this would be in the remit of the
minor injuries unit. It is for illustration of the impact distance can
have.)

--
Rod

polygonum wrote:
On 11/03/2013 00:35, Steve Firth wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote:
[snip]

Do you want to quote stats that actually show how many lives are saved by air ambulances?
There are plenty for the RNLI.

There are plenty for air ambulances. Only a ****ing moron would attempt to
suggest by sneering that the stats are either hard to find or non-existent.


The Air Ambulance Service Annual Situation Audit shows 24 helicopters, an
average of 857 lives saved per helicopter per year, so 20,568 lives per
year.

Are you planning to stop stealing oxygen anytime soon pennis?

I would further point out that there are only around ten or twelve spinal
injury centres in the whole of the UK and Ireland. Availability of
helicopters to transfer patients from scenes of accidents, or other
units, to these specialist units is inherent in the justification for having so few.

Also that as such things go the Air Ambulance is an efficient service with
an average cost of £1000 for each life saved.

The RNLI rescues about 22 people per day and spends £140.5 million pa.
that's a cost of £17,500 per life saved.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 11:38:26 +0000 (UTC), Steve Firth
wrote:

polygonum wrote:
On 11/03/2013 00:35, Steve Firth wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote:
[snip]

Do you want to quote stats that actually show how many lives are saved by air ambulances?
There are plenty for the RNLI.

There are plenty for air ambulances. Only a ****ing moron would attempt to
suggest by sneering that the stats are either hard to find or non-existent.


The Air Ambulance Service Annual Situation Audit shows 24 helicopters, an
average of 857 lives saved per helicopter per year, so 20,568 lives per
year.

Are you planning to stop stealing oxygen anytime soon pennis?

I would further point out that there are only around ten or twelve spinal
injury centres in the whole of the UK and Ireland. Availability of
helicopters to transfer patients from scenes of accidents, or other
units, to these specialist units is inherent in the justification for having so few.

Also that as such things go the Air Ambulance is an efficient service with
an average cost of £1000 for each life saved.


Would you care to give a more specific reference for that?

http://www.theairambulanceservice.or...tats-and-facts
says that their service costs £1,400 per mission and
http://www.associationofairambulances.co.uk/Audit.pdf says 19,000
missions for a total cost of £19.4 million or £1,000 per mission in
2007. Per mission != per life saved by a long chalk.

The RNLI rescues about 22 people per day and spends £140.5 million pa.
that's a cost of £17,500 per life saved.

According to their annual report it's much worse than that. In 2011
they had 8,900 launches and claim to have saved 438 lives. Total
expenditure was £150 million (of which £32 million was spent on fund
raising), which works out at about £17,000 per launch or £340,000 per
life saved.

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 11:38:26 +0000 (UTC) Steve Firth wrote :

Also that as such things go the Air Ambulance is an efficient service
with an average cost of £1000 for each life saved.

Here you pay for ambulance services unless it's a motor traffic accident,
though most people have insurance. Helicopter air ambulance $3,436.92
(£2,350) for the first hour, each additional minute $57.29 (£39). When I
had a bike accident in 2009 I was mighty glad some friends were able to get
me to hospital as ambulance transfer would have been serious money: I had
insurance but was still in the two month waiting period.

http://www.health.vic.gov.au/ambulance/fees.htm

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com

On Mar 9, 11:52*pm, "dennis@home"
wrote:
On 09/03/2013 19:54, Man at B&Q wrote:

Yet again you display your total ignorance. The "someone else" does
not need to be ambulance crew, or even medically trained.

MBQ

Go on then, phone up and ask for an air ambulance and see what they say.

They refused to attend to you.

MBQ

On Mar 11, 7:55*am, "dennis@home"
wrote:
On 10/03/2013 22:21, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 21:48:52 +0000, SteveW wrote:

3) They can transport patients with back or neck injuries without the
bumps of road transport.

You can get some quite nasty vibrations in a helicopter, particulary in
hover but generally yes a smoother journey than some potholed A road. And
cornering doesn't shove you sideways like it does in a car.

The other things that some appear to forget include..

They can't always land next to the patient and they have to be
transported to the helicopter often by an ambulance.

They can't fly in bad weather so you have to maintain a full road
ambulance cover even if you have air ambulances.

Many can't operate at night so don't have an accident at night.

You could have an extra 20 - 30 paramedics on bikes for the cost of one
air ambulance that is usable for about 60% of the time, just think of
how many heart attack victims that would save.

Paramedics don't always save the victim. Let's scrap them too.

MBQ

On 11/03/2013 13:26, Man at B&Q wrote:
On Mar 9, 11:52 pm, "dennis@home"
wrote:
On 09/03/2013 19:54, Man at B&Q wrote:

Yet again you display your total ignorance. The "someone else" does
not need to be ambulance crew, or even medically trained.

MBQ

Go on then, phone up and ask for an air ambulance and see what they say.

They refused to attend to you.

MBQ

They would. Paramedics are not trained to deal with stupidity.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 11/03/2013 11:10, dennis@home wrote:
On 11/03/2013 00:35, Steve Firth wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote:
[snip]

Do you want to quote stats that actually show how many lives are
saved by air ambulances?
There are plenty for the RNLI.

There are plenty for air ambulances. Only a ****ing moron would
attempt to
suggest by sneering that the stats are either hard to find or
non-existent.


The Air Ambulance Service Annual Situation Audit shows 24 helicopters, an
average of 857 lives saved per helicopter per year, so 20,568 lives per
year.

Go on then show the stats that say they would have died if there hadn't
been an air ambulance.

Also show the stats that prove they weren't saved by the people on the
ground before the air ambulance arrived.


Denboi has been on the stupid pills again.

If a helicopter is requested (in London anyway), there is always a HEMS
paramedic on duty in control to call back & interrogate to ensure it's
absolutely necessary.

They only go out if its absolutely vital.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 11/03/2013 12:21, Tony Bryer wrote:
On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 11:38:26 +0000 (UTC) Steve Firth wrote :

Also that as such things go the Air Ambulance is an efficient service
with an average cost of £1000 for each life saved.

Here you pay for ambulance services unless it's a motor traffic accident,
though most people have insurance. Helicopter air ambulance $3,436.92
(£2,350) for the first hour, each additional minute $57.29 (£39). When I
had a bike accident in 2009 I was mighty glad some friends were able to get
me to hospital as ambulance transfer would have been serious money: I had
insurance but was still in the two month waiting period.

http://www.health.vic.gov.au/ambulance/fees.htm

Is that service provided by St Johns?

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 11/03/2013 12:21, Tony Bryer wrote:
On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 11:38:26 +0000 (UTC) Steve Firth wrote :

Also that as such things go the Air Ambulance is an efficient service
with an average cost of £1000 for each life saved.

Here you pay for ambulance services unless it's a motor traffic accident,
though most people have insurance. Helicopter air ambulance $3,436.92
(£2,350) for the first hour, each additional minute $57.29 (£39). When I
had a bike accident in 2009 I was mighty glad some friends were able to get
me to hospital as ambulance transfer would have been serious money: I had
insurance but was still in the two month waiting period.

http://www.health.vic.gov.au/ambulance/fees.htm

Is that service provided by St Johns?

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 11/03/2013 12:21, Tony Bryer wrote:
On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 11:38:26 +0000 (UTC) Steve Firth wrote :

Also that as such things go the Air Ambulance is an efficient service
with an average cost of £1000 for each life saved.

Here you pay for ambulance services unless it's a motor traffic accident,
though most people have insurance. Helicopter air ambulance $3,436.92
(£2,350) for the first hour, each additional minute $57.29 (£39). When I
had a bike accident in 2009 I was mighty glad some friends were able to get
me to hospital as ambulance transfer would have been serious money: I had
insurance but was still in the two month waiting period.

http://www.health.vic.gov.au/ambulance/fees.htm

Is that service provided by St Johns?

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 11/03/2013 11:38, Steve Firth wrote:
polygonum wrote:
On 11/03/2013 00:35, Steve Firth wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote:
[snip]

Do you want to quote stats that actually show how many lives are saved by air ambulances?
There are plenty for the RNLI.

There are plenty for air ambulances. Only a ****ing moron would attempt to
suggest by sneering that the stats are either hard to find or non-existent.


The Air Ambulance Service Annual Situation Audit shows 24 helicopters, an
average of 857 lives saved per helicopter per year, so 20,568 lives per
year.

Are you planning to stop stealing oxygen anytime soon pennis?

I would further point out that there are only around ten or twelve spinal
injury centres in the whole of the UK and Ireland. Availability of
helicopters to transfer patients from scenes of accidents, or other
units, to these specialist units is inherent in the justification for having so few.

Also that as such things go the Air Ambulance is an efficient service with
an average cost of £1000 for each life saved.

The RNLI rescues about 22 people per day and spends £140.5 million pa.
that's a cost of £17,500 per life saved.


However it costs a lot more to send a life boat out an a search and
rescue mission than it does to send a helicopter to a known location
where there is probably an ambulance with flashing blue lights on it
attending to the victim.

In any case your figure of £1000 is a lie as a typical air ambulance
costs about £3.5M pounds per annum and you have stated they save about
850 lives a year. That makes it about £4k assuming each one was actually
saved by the air ambulance and not one of the many ferried from hospital
to hospital.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
On 11/03/2013 12:21, Tony Bryer wrote:
On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 11:38:26 +0000 (UTC) Steve Firth wrote :

Also that as such things go the Air Ambulance is an efficient service
with an average cost of £1000 for each life saved.

Here you pay for ambulance services unless it's a motor traffic accident,
though most people have insurance. Helicopter air ambulance $3,436.92
(£2,350) for the first hour, each additional minute $57.29 (£39). When I
had a bike accident in 2009 I was mighty glad some friends were able to
get
me to hospital as ambulance transfer would have been serious money: I had
insurance but was still in the two month waiting period.

http://www.health.vic.gov.au/ambulance/fees.htm

Is that service provided by St Johns?

Nope, it's a state govt operation in most australian states.

On 11/03/2013 13:33, Man at B&Q wrote:
On Mar 11, 7:55 am, "dennis@home"
wrote:
On 10/03/2013 22:21, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 21:48:52 +0000, SteveW wrote:

3) They can transport patients with back or neck injuries without the
bumps of road transport.

You can get some quite nasty vibrations in a helicopter, particulary in
hover but generally yes a smoother journey than some potholed A road. And
cornering doesn't shove you sideways like it does in a car.

The other things that some appear to forget include..

They can't always land next to the patient and they have to be
transported to the helicopter often by an ambulance.

They can't fly in bad weather so you have to maintain a full road
ambulance cover even if you have air ambulances.

Many can't operate at night so don't have an accident at night.

You could have an extra 20 - 30 paramedics on bikes for the cost of one
air ambulance that is usable for about 60% of the time, just think of
how many heart attack victims that would save.

Paramedics don't always save the victim. Let's scrap them too.

MBQ


Well that would be pretty stupid.
there is a lot of evidence that a paramedic attending does save people.
There isn't much evidence that sending a helicopter to ferry a patient
that has been attended to by a paramedic has a better chance of
surviving than if they are taken by ambulance.

In article ,
says...

If a helicopter is requested (in London anyway), there is always a HEMS
paramedic on duty in control to call back & interrogate to ensure it's
absolutely necessary.

They only go out if its absolutely vital.


Which is sensible.

It's a pity that police helicopters don't operate on the same guideline.

Although I haven't heard one for a month or so, I wonder if they've
overspent this year's budget?


--
Sam

On 11/03/2013 18:00, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Denboi has been on the stupid pills again.

If a helicopter is requested (in London anyway), there is always a HEMS
paramedic on duty in control to call back & interrogate to ensure it's
absolutely necessary.

They only go out if its absolutely vital.

I got the image of a modern, computerised control room. With several
suitably uniformed paramedic staff going round repeatedly muttering
"aHEM, aHEM" without any apparent purpose or effect.

--
Rod

In message , Sam Plusnet
writes
In article ,
says...

If a helicopter is requested (in London anyway), there is always a HEMS
paramedic on duty in control to call back & interrogate to ensure it's
absolutely necessary.

They only go out if its absolutely vital.


Which is sensible.

It's a pity that police helicopters don't operate on the same guideline.

Although I haven't heard one for a month or so, I wonder if they've
overspent this year's budget?

Just wait until they get the bill for causing about 15 inbounds at
Heathrow to divert to Gatwick, Luton and Stansted last week:-)

Not the MET AIUI.



--
Tim Lamb

On 11/03/2013 19:46, polygonum wrote:
On 11/03/2013 18:00, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Denboi has been on the stupid pills again.

If a helicopter is requested (in London anyway), there is always a HEMS
paramedic on duty in control to call back & interrogate to ensure it's
absolutely necessary.

They only go out if its absolutely vital.

I got the image of a modern, computerised control room. With several
suitably uniformed paramedic staff going round repeatedly muttering
"aHEM, aHEM" without any apparent purpose or effect.

LOL!

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Mar 11, 7:25*pm, "dennis@home"
wrote:
On 11/03/2013 13:33, Man at B&Q wrote:









On Mar 11, 7:55 am, "dennis@home"
wrote:
On 10/03/2013 22:21, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 21:48:52 +0000, SteveW wrote:

3) They can transport patients with back or neck injuries without the
bumps of road transport.

You can get some quite nasty vibrations in a helicopter, particulary in
hover but generally yes a smoother journey than some potholed A road. And
cornering doesn't shove you sideways like it does in a car.

The other things that some appear to forget include..

They can't always land next to the patient and they have to be
transported to the helicopter often by an ambulance.

They can't fly in bad weather so you have to maintain a full road
ambulance cover even if you have air ambulances.

Many can't operate at night so don't have an accident at night.

You could have an extra 20 - 30 paramedics on bikes for the cost of one
air ambulance that is usable for about 60% of the time, just think of
how many heart attack victims that would save.

Paramedics don't always save the victim. Let's scrap them too.

MBQ

Well that would be pretty stupid.

Right up your street then.

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:15:59 +0000 (UTC), Steve Firth wrote:

I've given money to the RNLI for years, another charity that deserves
support.

But as I don't "do" sea based water sports, sailing, swimming etc I feel
my money is better donated to the GNAS. I may well need the services of
the GNAS...

The RNLI was, briefly, a government funded organisation. It was a
disaster and the RNLI ended up opting to go back to charitable status.
It just works better. Get it government funded and it will end up under
the thumb of some moron like dennis.

That depends how you set up the funding. I agree that letting civil
servants in on the act wouldn't work but a grant system and answerable to
the Audit Commision ought to. They get the money but aren't told how to
spend it, only to spend it wisely.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:25:55 +0000, dennis@home wrote:

there is a lot of evidence that a paramedic attending does save people.
There isn't much evidence that sending a helicopter to ferry a patient
that has been attended to by a paramedic has a better chance of
surviving than if they are taken by ambulance.

Small point the patient won't have been attended by a paramedic until the
Air Ambulance arrives...

Even a biker paramedic would still take 30 odd minutes to arrive,
assuming they did the roads around here aren't very "biker friendly". On
average one or two bikers a year kill themselves outright. ie. even if a
paramedic with a complete set of toys all set up and ready to go was sat
next to the wall they hit, they'd still be dead.

And a biker paramedic would still require a paramedic ambulance to
transport the patient, always assuming the patient will last the hour
long road journey having already had to wait 30 mins for the paramedic
biker to arrive...

Around here the Air Ambulance is quite often dispatched because a road
ambulance will simply take too long to arrive and the transfer time via
road would also be too long.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 10:13:50 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:

The LAS HEMS helicopter is funded by Guvmint.

Why only the LAS HEMS?(*) AFAIK none of the other Air Ambulance services
get any assistance from HMG.

If you think about it they are always secondary units to arrive and
the paramedics that are already at the sceen have already done the
work to stabilise the patient before the helicopter is even scrambled.

The Denboi idiot strikes again. Helicopters have two useful functions,
1) being that they can get to remote or difficult areas faster and 2)
that they can get the patient to hospital faster.

Dennis lives in a world where everything is no more than 10 minutes from
everything else. Around here there is no paramedic in attendance until
the Air Ambulance arrives, first responders maybe but no paramedic. Not
unless you are preaperd to wait 40 odd minutes for an ambulance to drive
in...

(*) Stuid question 'cause it's London, and the politicios spend a lot of
time there.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 12/03/2013 11:15, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:15:59 +0000 (UTC), Steve Firth wrote:

I've given money to the RNLI for years, another charity that deserves
support.

But as I don't "do" sea based water sports, sailing, swimming etc I feel
my money is better donated to the GNAS. I may well need the services of
the GNAS...

The RNLI was, briefly, a government funded organisation. It was a
disaster and the RNLI ended up opting to go back to charitable status.
It just works better. Get it government funded and it will end up under
the thumb of some moron like dennis.

That depends how you set up the funding. I agree that letting civil
servants in on the act wouldn't work but a grant system and answerable to
the Audit Commision ought to. They get the money but aren't told how to
spend it, only to spend it wisely.

However we all rely on sea transport, fishing, off-shore oil industry,
etc. And they are all supported to a huge extent by RNLI activities. I
really wouldn't be happy at people in, on and around the sea, at least
partly for my benefit, being left to drown. That is partly why it is
arguable that we should consider donating regardless of where we
actually live and the likelihood of each of us as individuals directly
requiring their assistance.

--
Rod

On Mar 12, 11:41*am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 10:13:50 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:
The LAS HEMS helicopter is funded by Guvmint.

Why only the LAS HEMS?(*) AFAIK none of the other Air Ambulance services
get any assistance from HMG.

If you think about it they are always secondary units to arrive and
the paramedics that are already at the sceen have already done the
work to stabilise the patient before the helicopter is even scrambled.

The Denboi idiot strikes again. Helicopters have two useful functions,
1) being that they can get to remote or difficult areas faster and 2)
that they can get the patient to hospital faster.

Dennis lives in a world where everything is no more than 10 minutes from
everything else. Around here there is no paramedic in attendance until
the Air Ambulance arrives, first responders maybe but no paramedic.

But, but, but, Dennis will have a fit when he realises they don't need
a paramedic on the ground to guide them down.

MBQ

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:15:59 +0000 (UTC), Steve Firth wrote:

I've given money to the RNLI for years, another charity that deserves
support.

But as I don't "do" sea based water sports, sailing, swimming etc I feel
my money is better donated to the GNAS. I may well need the services of
the GNAS...


But it is not unknown for them to turn out for inland flooding
situations.


Adrian
--
To Reply :
replace "diy" with "news" and reverse the domain

If you are reading this from a web interface eg DIY Banter,
DIY Forum or Google Groups, please be aware this is NOT a forum, and
you are merely using a web portal to a USENET group. Many people block
posters coming from web portals due to perceieved SPAM or inaneness.
For a better method of access, please see:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet