On Feb 3, 3:57*pm, The Other Mike
wrote:
On 3 Feb 2012 11:12:20 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2012-02-03, charles wrote:
In article ,
* *Tim Lamb wrote:

Dennis's suggestion makes some sense although I don't see why water
should ever invade the brake system. Just develop a fluid which does not
boil readily and is not hygroscopic.

I'd imagine that people have been trying to do that for many years.

And they have succeeded; DOT5 silicone fluid. It's never caught on.

Mainly because it is crap. Any water that does get into the system
migrates and collects in large blobs, often in the calipers, even with
pressure bleeding it's a bugger to bleed properly *and the brake feel
is also changed as the fluid, despite some protestations to the
contrary, *has all the impressions of being compressible... because it
is.

The master cylinder to air boundary is not the only route for the
water to get into the fluid, some also migrates through the rubber
hose walls. * I've seen this myself by having a sealed set of bellows
above the master cylinder. *The fluid was wetter after a few months
use, despite no fluid being directly exposed to atmosphere.

--

You might be better off with extra-thick johnnies.

On Feb 3, 11:50*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
* *Tim Lamb wrote:

Dennis's suggestion makes some sense although I don't see why water
should ever invade the brake system. Just develop a fluid which does not
boil readily and is not hygroscopic.

There already is one - silicone fluid. But it doesn't give the same 'feel'
to the pedal.

Anyway, at 29 quid they can change it next time. Maybe it'll cure the
snatchy brakes!

Likely not, sadly. Changing fluid is a preventative measure - never known
it to cure anything.

Itsan unnecessary expense according to my father. He wont believe any
work is necessary until his car fails an MOT. I would need to remove
a brakeline, prise it apart and stick a pencil point through it before
he would believe. Any failures have "got nothing to do with that" and
are purely down to age in his opinion. Ah well, I'm going to eat some
fish, itsamy breakfast.

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

Anyway, at 29 quid they can change it next time. Maybe it'll cure
the snatchy brakes!


No. That will be down to external or internal corrosion on the calipers
and cylinders. Replace that lot or strip and grease.

No. Snatchy from new. Now 2 year old Ford Fiesta. There doesn't seem to
be the progressive application I was used to with the old Focus.

If they are just going to suck out the reservoir and top up I may think
again. I would like to see the fluid bled at each wheel if they really
believe this nonsense.


Depending how much bad weather driving you do, that's something that is
worth doing every ten years or so anyway.

Yes.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

Anyway, at 29 quid they can change it next time. Maybe it'll cure
the snatchy brakes!


No. That will be down to external or internal corrosion on the
calipers and cylinders. Replace that lot or strip and grease.

No. Snatchy from new. Now 2 year old Ford Fiesta. There doesn't seem
to be the progressive application I was used to with the old Focus.

If they are just going to suck out the reservoir and top up I may
think again. I would like to see the fluid bled at each wheel if they
really believe this nonsense.

A reputable garage *won't* do that. They should bleed (& flush) the system
properly.

Tim

In article
,
thirty-six wrote:
Cheap Fords have always had dodgy chassis components, it's why I've
personally avoided them. The same brake problems exist today as 40
years ago, itsa Ford, you can't expect more.

'Cheap' Fords? Have you compared prices recently?
For a very long time Ford Uk have used the same brake makers as many
others - including BL.
And BL have produced some cars with about the worst brakes going. Mini.
SD1. Etc.

--
*Confession is good for the soul, but bad for your career.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 10:06:48 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article
,
thirty-six wrote:
Cheap Fords have always had dodgy chassis components, it's why I've
personally avoided them. The same brake problems exist today as 40
years ago, itsa Ford, you can't expect more.

'Cheap' Fords? Have you compared prices recently?
For a very long time Ford Uk have used the same brake makers as many
others - including BL.
And BL have produced some cars with about the worst brakes going. Mini.
SD1. Etc.

He really is full of ****, isn't he?
That one he came out with above that - about steam bubbles from water
in the brake line only leading to a soft pedal, is fecking priceless.
I've had pad fade and water/steam fade and I know the difference,
unlike 3/6d, who I suspect has had neither.
It's only by running ****e old cars and experiencing the
trials/tribulations of them you get to learn these things.

On 03/02/2012 11:57, thirty-six wrote:
On Feb 3, 11:12 am, wrote:
On 2012-02-03, wrote:

In ,
Tim wrote:
Dennis's suggestion makes some sense although I don't see why water
should ever invade the brake system. Just develop a fluid which does not
boil readily and is not hygroscopic.

I'd imagine that people have been trying to do that for many years.

And they have succeeded; DOT5 silicone fluid. It's never caught on.


I saw it on the shelf of the factors but thought it was some specific
requirement due to oddball Citroens and Rolls-Royces. Is this usable
in systems designed for DOT4 and may old systems be changed to DOT5?

Proper Citroens use a mineral oil based fluid for their brakes, not DOT
5. They're also proper power brakes - the pedal opens a valve, rather
than actually pushing fluid in a cylinder.

Magura and Shimano bike brakes use similar oil, Hope and others use DOT
fluid. Which means I've got 6 vehicles here which use hydraulic brakes,
only one of which uses DOT, and I hate looking after the brakes on that.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
On Feb 2, 10:25 am, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message o.uk,
Dave Liquorice writes



Trouble is these days I bet most people just put fuel in and don't
do any other maintenance it just goes in for a service every 10,000
miles plus. Modern cars don't need anything like the molly coddling
they did 30 years ago.
Huh!

Try telling that to Ford who want brake fluid changed at 2 years!

regards



--
Tim Lamb

I believe there is a way to test the brake fluid but I'm not entirely
sure what is being tested, oxygen content, acidity?


water content is most important.

water turns to steam in hot brakes. NOT good. it also corrodes
cylinders.

I believe synthetic brake fluid does not absorb water, or little of it.

On Feb 7, 3:30*pm, Clive George wrote:
On 03/02/2012 11:57, thirty-six wrote:









On Feb 3, 11:12 am, *wrote:
On 2012-02-03, *wrote:

In ,
* * Tim *wrote:
Dennis's suggestion makes some sense although I don't see why water
should ever invade the brake system. Just develop a fluid which does not
boil readily and is not hygroscopic.

I'd imagine that people have been trying to do that for many years.

And they have succeeded; DOT5 silicone fluid. It's never caught on.

I saw it on the shelf of the factors but thought it was some specific
requirement due to oddball Citroens and Rolls-Royces. *Is this usable
in systems designed for DOT4 *and may old systems be changed to DOT5?

Proper Citroens use a mineral oil based fluid for their brakes, not DOT

Yep, I had one of those moments, mineral oil it is and with the
Rollers.

5. They're also proper power brakes - the pedal opens a valve, rather
than actually pushing fluid in a cylinder.

Magura and Shimano bike brakes use similar oil, Hope and others use DOT
fluid. Which means I've got 6 vehicles here which use hydraulic brakes,
only one of which uses DOT, and I hate looking after the brakes on that.

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 10:06:48 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article
,
thirty-six wrote:
Cheap Fords have always had dodgy chassis components, it's why I've
personally avoided them. The same brake problems exist today as 40
years ago, itsa Ford, you can't expect more.

'Cheap' Fords? Have you compared prices recently?
For a very long time Ford Uk have used the same brake makers as many
others - including BL.
And BL have produced some cars with about the worst brakes going. Mini.
SD1. Etc.

I had a Mini with no servo and drum brakes all around. Given enough
pressure on the pedal it would stop OK.

I change brake fluid every 2-3 years.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

In article ,
Mark wrote:
'Cheap' Fords? Have you compared prices recently?
For a very long time Ford Uk have used the same brake makers as many
others - including BL.
And BL have produced some cars with about the worst brakes going. Mini.
SD1. Etc.

I had a Mini with no servo and drum brakes all around. Given enough
pressure on the pedal it would stop OK.

Depends what you mean by ok. It was very easy to make them fade away to
near nothing.

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 16:47:38 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Mark wrote:
'Cheap' Fords? Have you compared prices recently?
For a very long time Ford Uk have used the same brake makers as many
others - including BL.
And BL have produced some cars with about the worst brakes going. Mini.
SD1. Etc.

I had a Mini with no servo and drum brakes all around. Given enough
pressure on the pedal it would stop OK.

Depends what you mean by ok. It was very easy to make them fade away to
near nothing.

I don't recall having that problem, unlike a more modern fiat with
disc brakes. That was scary.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

On 08/02/2012 12:59, Mark wrote:
I had a Mini with no servo and drum brakes all around. Given enough
pressure on the pedal it would stop OK.

I had one too, many years ago. In 4 years I owned it I had to change 4
of the 6 slave cylinders due to leaks, and the brakes got noticeably
worse between services - needed a good clean and bleed each time.

Given it only ever had to stop from 60 they weren't that good. And that
was a car that I knew had been looked after - my mum had bought it new.

Andy

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 08:27:02 -0800 (PST), thirty-six
wrote:

On Feb 3, 3:57*pm, The Other Mike

The master cylinder to air boundary is not the only route for the
water to get into the fluid, some also migrates through the rubber
hose walls. * I've seen this myself by having a sealed set of bellows
above the master cylinder. *The fluid was wetter after a few months
use, despite no fluid being directly exposed to atmosphere.

You might be better off with extra-thick johnnies.

The vehicle wouldn't pass an MOT or a scrutineers inspection without a
properly engineered reservoir cap.


--

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 03:57:53 -0800 (PST), thirty-six
wrote:

On Feb 3, 11:12*am, Huge wrote:
On 2012-02-03, charles wrote:

In article ,
* *Tim Lamb wrote:
Dennis's suggestion makes some sense although I don't see why water
should ever invade the brake system. Just develop a fluid which does not
boil readily and is not hygroscopic.

I'd imagine that people have been trying to do that for many years.

And they have succeeded; DOT5 silicone fluid. It's never caught on.


I saw it on the shelf of the factors but thought it was some specific
requirement due to oddball Citroens and Rolls-Royces.

No, that is very different and only for some Citroens, Rolls Royces
and Bentleys. There are, or have been at least three types, LHS, LHM
and LDS, it's a mineral oil and totally incompatible with all other
vehicles.

Is this usable in systems designed for DOT4

No

and may old systems be changed to DOT5?

Yes, but no one would ever consider it if they knew what a piece of
**** it is.


--

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 12:59:09 +0000, Mark
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 10:06:48 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article
,
thirty-six wrote:
Cheap Fords have always had dodgy chassis components, it's why I've
personally avoided them. The same brake problems exist today as 40
years ago, itsa Ford, you can't expect more.

'Cheap' Fords? Have you compared prices recently?
For a very long time Ford Uk have used the same brake makers as many
others - including BL.
And BL have produced some cars with about the worst brakes going. Mini.
SD1. Etc.

I had a Mini with no servo and drum brakes all around. Given enough
pressure on the pedal it would stop OK.

I had one dated about 1961, single cylinder on the front drums 'single
leading shoe' Stopped ok, but, even when it was in perfect condition,
you were always wary.

When upgraded to twin cylinders and twin leading shoes which iirc were
a bit wider, then it stopped better still. (this was standard spec
from 64 or 67, can't recall which)

Strangely, the 7 inch Cooper discs were significantly worse than twin
leading shoe drums. Not sure what they were thinking of when they
came up with them.

But 7.5" cooper S discs were only limited by the stickiness of the
tyres and, without a servo, the leg muscles of the driver.


--

On Feb 8, 10:47*pm, The Other Mike
wrote:
On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 08:27:02 -0800 (PST), thirty-six

wrote:
On Feb 3, 3:57*pm, The Other Mike

The master cylinder to air boundary is not the only route for the
water to get into the fluid, some also migrates through the rubber
hose walls. * I've seen this myself by having a sealed set of bellows
above the master cylinder. *The fluid was wetter after a few months
use, despite no fluid being directly exposed to atmosphere.

You might be better off with extra-thick johnnies.

The vehicle wouldn't pass an MOT or a scrutineers inspection without a
properly engineered reservoir cap.

--

Whadya want, iron tyred wheels as well?

On Feb 8, 10:47*pm, The Other Mike
wrote:
On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 03:57:53 -0800 (PST), thirty-six









wrote:
On Feb 3, 11:12*am, Huge wrote:
On 2012-02-03, charles wrote:

In article ,
* *Tim Lamb wrote:
Dennis's suggestion makes some sense although I don't see why water
should ever invade the brake system. Just develop a fluid which does not
boil readily and is not hygroscopic.

I'd imagine that people have been trying to do that for many years.

And they have succeeded; DOT5 silicone fluid. It's never caught on.

I saw it on the shelf of the factors but thought it was some specific
requirement due to oddball Citroens and Rolls-Royces.

No, that is very different and only for some Citroens, Rolls Royces
and Bentleys. *There are, or have been at least three types, LHS, LHM
and LDS, it's a mineral oil and totally incompatible with all other
vehicles.

Is this usable in systems designed for DOT4

No

and may old systems be changed to DOT5?

Yes, but no one would ever consider it if they knew what a piece of
**** it is.

--

So did Citroen and Rolls make the choice because it is "better" or
some other reason?

On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 21:44:40 -0800 (PST), thirty-six
wrote:


So did Citroen and Rolls make the choice because it is "better" or
some other reason?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydropneumatic_suspension


--

On 09/02/2012 05:44, thirty-six wrote:
On Feb 8, 10:47 pm, The Other
wrote:
On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 03:57:53 -0800 (PST), thirty-six









wrote:
On Feb 3, 11:12 am, wrote:
On 2012-02-03, wrote:

In ,
Tim wrote:
Dennis's suggestion makes some sense although I don't see why water
should ever invade the brake system. Just develop a fluid which does not
boil readily and is not hygroscopic.

I'd imagine that people have been trying to do that for many years.

And they have succeeded; DOT5 silicone fluid. It's never caught on.

I saw it on the shelf of the factors but thought it was some specific
requirement due to oddball Citroens and Rolls-Royces.

No, that is very different and only for some Citroens, Rolls Royces
and Bentleys. There are, or have been at least three types, LHS, LHM
and LDS, it's a mineral oil and totally incompatible with all other
vehicles.

Is this usable in systems designed for DOT4

No

and may old systems be changed to DOT5?

Yes, but no one would ever consider it if they knew what a piece of
**** it is.

So did Citroen and Rolls make the choice because it is "better" or
some other reason?

Citroen don't use DOT5, they use a mineral oil for the hydraulic system
which includes the brakes, suspension and steering. The brakes are
proper power brakes - there's no master cylinder as such. On some, even
the steering has no mechanical contact during normal running - it's
hydraulic. (with a rack and pinion backup - the hydraulics keep the
pinion from acting on the rack). So it's a completely different system
to a conventional brake setup.

Not sure how much Rolls shared with this - I believe suspension on some
models in the past, but don't know more.

In article ,
The Other Mike wrote:
I had one dated about 1961, single cylinder on the front drums 'single
leading shoe' Stopped ok, but, even when it was in perfect condition,
you were always wary.

When upgraded to twin cylinders and twin leading shoes which iirc were
a bit wider, then it stopped better still. (this was standard spec
from 64 or 67, can't recall which)

The twin leading shoe brakes reduced pedal effort but made fade even more
prone in heavy use.

--
*Why do the two "sanction"s (noun and verb) mean opposites?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Feb 9, 12:35*pm, The Other Mike
wrote:
On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 21:44:40 -0800 (PST), thirty-six

wrote:
So did Citroen and Rolls make the choice because it is "better" or
some other reason?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydropneumatic_suspension

--

Ah, yes, a whole new topic in itself, liquid and gas road springs. I
remember an uncle of mine having an Austin Princess, a very plush ride
and seemingly sedate yet reasonably quick for its era. Except for
getting caught behind a tractor he seemed always to have a clear road.

On Feb 9, 1:21*pm, Clive George wrote:
On 09/02/2012 05:44, thirty-six wrote:









On Feb 8, 10:47 pm, The Other
wrote:
On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 03:57:53 -0800 (PST), thirty-six

*wrote:
On Feb 3, 11:12 am, *wrote:
On 2012-02-03, *wrote:

In ,
* * Tim *wrote:
Dennis's suggestion makes some sense although I don't see why water
should ever invade the brake system. Just develop a fluid which does not
boil readily and is not hygroscopic.

I'd imagine that people have been trying to do that for many years.

And they have succeeded; DOT5 silicone fluid. It's never caught on.

I saw it on the shelf of the factors but thought it was some specific
requirement due to oddball Citroens and Rolls-Royces.

No, that is very different and only for some Citroens, Rolls Royces
and Bentleys. *There are, or have been at least three types, LHS, LHM
and LDS, it's a mineral oil and totally incompatible with all other
vehicles.

Is this usable in systems designed for DOT4

No

and may old systems be changed to DOT5?

Yes, but no one would ever consider it if they knew what a piece of
**** it is.

So did Citroen and Rolls make the choice because it is "better" or
some other reason?

Citroen don't use DOT5, they use a mineral oil for the hydraulic system
which includes the brakes, suspension and steering. The brakes are
proper power brakes - there's no master cylinder as such. On some, even
the steering has no mechanical contact during normal running - it's
hydraulic. (with a rack and pinion backup - the hydraulics keep the
pinion from acting on the rack). So it's a completely different system
to a conventional brake setup.

Not sure how much Rolls shared with this - I believe suspension on some
models in the past, but don't know more.

Hmm is there any of these oil/gas suspended motor-carriages with 4wd
for off-road capability (and zi;pping out from slippy negative camber
corners) and a gutsy engine. Actually the biggest hurdle is a local
"road" with potholes every 30' of tyre swallowing size. It's a 10mph
job with fogs and dips on in the dark just to plot a course to avoid
the worst. It's a private road yet the corporation have numerous
properties adjoining it. There's a detour around good roads which
takes as long but with better suspension I can use the potholed road a
bit quicker (at least by day).

On 09/02/2012 16:20, thirty-six wrote:

Hmm is there any of these oil/gas suspended motor-carriages with 4wd
for off-road capability (and zi;pping out from slippy negative camber
corners) and a gutsy engine.

BX GTI 4x4, but the 4wd was fragile and you'll really struggle to find
one these days.

Or there's the BX 4TC, but that's a proper racing car and most were
scrapped by the factory after they didn't do well enough, so unless
you've insanely rich you'll not get one.

Actually the biggest hurdle is a local
"road" with potholes every 30' of tyre swallowing size. It's a 10mph
job with fogs and dips on in the dark just to plot a course to avoid
the worst. It's a private road yet the corporation have numerous
properties adjoining it. There's a detour around good roads which
takes as long but with better suspension I can use the potholed road a
bit quicker (at least by day).

Sounds like what you mostly need is a car you don't mind wrecking.

In the 90s, a friend with a mid-80s VW Passat followed some 4wd people
up a track in the mendips one day. They got to the top and were slightly
surprised to see a normal-looking car with them. They asked "What's that
then?". "It's an automatic".

(that car body and gear box were fine - pity about the exploding engines)

On Feb 9, 5:04*pm, Clive George wrote:
On 09/02/2012 16:20, thirty-six wrote:

Hmm is there any of these oil/gas suspended motor-carriages with 4wd
for off-road capability (and zi;pping out from slippy negative camber
corners) *and a gutsy engine.

BX GTI 4x4, but the 4wd was fragile and you'll really struggle to find
one these days.

If you mean fragile steering arm or the like, can't replacements of
the delicate sporty bits be used from the base of the range to toughen
it up. Or do you mean it's built from Turkey foil?

Or there's the BX 4TC, but that's a proper racing car and most were
scrapped by the factory after they didn't do well enough, so unless
you've insanely rich you'll not get one.

Correct, I'll likely be saving something from the scrapyard. So how
much will a new set of bubbles cost should I prefer a different spring
rate?

Actually the biggest hurdle is a local
"road" with potholes every 30' *of tyre swallowing size. *It's a 10mph
job with fogs and dips on in the dark just to plot a course to avoid
the worst. *It's a private road yet the corporation have numerous
properties adjoining it. *There's a detour around good roads which
takes as long but with better suspension I can use the potholed road a
bit quicker (at least by day).

Sounds like what you mostly need is a car you don't mind wrecking.

I thought that's why we have second-hand Peugots. Oh and Citreons.
Actually I don't mind using any car, I don't like having to pay out
for tyres and wheels bcause I was going it at 20mph..

In the 90s, a friend with a mid-80s VW Passat followed some 4wd people
up a track in the mendips one day. They got to the top and were slightly
surprised to see a normal-looking car with them. They asked "What's that
then?". "It's an automatic".

Mate of mine used his manual diesel Passat to climb a steep loose
gravel track meant only for forestry 4x4s . At the bottom he had his
foot to the boards in third, then he did the same in second until
finally that bogged down and for the steep bit we just crawled in
first. IIRC the car was carrying three heavy dudes and two
middleweights plus gear piled everywhere for four days away. Normally
it would have been a reasonable climb for any light car but we were
loaded up.

(that car body and gear box were fine - pity about the exploding engines)

On 09/02/2012 21:37, thirty-six wrote:
On Feb 9, 5:04 pm, Clive wrote:
On 09/02/2012 16:20, thirty-six wrote:

Hmm is there any of these oil/gas suspended motor-carriages with 4wd
for off-road capability (and zi;pping out from slippy negative camber
corners) and a gutsy engine.

BX GTI 4x4, but the 4wd was fragile and you'll really struggle to find
one these days.

If you mean fragile steering arm or the like, can't replacements of
the delicate sporty bits be used from the base of the range to toughen
it up. Or do you mean it's built from Turkey foil?

I mean what I said : the 4wd was fragile. That is, the bits which make
it 4wd were - the non-4wd bits were like the 2wd versions. There's no
delicate sporty bits on a BX GTi.

Or there's the BX 4TC, but that's a proper racing car and most were
scrapped by the factory after they didn't do well enough, so unless
you've insanely rich you'll not get one.

Correct, I'll likely be saving something from the scrapyard. So how
much will a new set of bubbles cost should I prefer a different spring
rate?

25 quid a go, one on each corner but you won't change the spring rate,
only the damping. If you look around you can get ones with different
sized holes for different cars.

If you're very keen you could probably fit a valve to them to change the
amount of nitrogen in there - that would change the spring rate. But you
may well underestimate the amount of keen-ness that would require.

On Feb 9, 10:39*pm, Clive George wrote:
On 09/02/2012 21:37, thirty-six wrote:

On Feb 9, 5:04 pm, Clive *wrote:
On 09/02/2012 16:20, thirty-six wrote:

Hmm is there any of these oil/gas suspended motor-carriages with 4wd
for off-road capability (and zi;pping out from slippy negative camber
corners) *and a gutsy engine.

BX GTI 4x4, but the 4wd was fragile and you'll really struggle to find
one these days.

If you mean fragile steering arm or the like, can't replacements of
the delicate sporty bits be used from the base of the range to toughen
it up. *Or do you mean it's built from Turkey foil?

I mean what I said : the 4wd was fragile. That is, the bits which make
it 4wd were - the non-4wd bits were like the 2wd versions. There's no
delicate sporty bits on a BX GTi.

So is a 2wd Citroen with tall tyres going to withstand a few miles
life of going through the potholes at speed?

Or there's the BX 4TC, but that's a proper racing car and most were
scrapped by the factory after they didn't do well enough, so unless
you've insanely rich you'll not get one.

Correct, I'll likely be saving something from the scrapyard. *So how
much will a new set of bubbles cost should I prefer a different spring
rate?

25 quid a go, one on each corner but you won't change the spring rate,
only the damping. If you look around you can get ones with different
sized holes for different cars.

Seems a reasonable cost to factor in if there are no other obvious
faults. Other than sagging suspension is there anything else an aging
Citreon will generally suffer with apart from the ordinary interior
degredation?

If you're very keen you could probably fit a valve to them to change the
amount of nitrogen in there - that would change the spring rate. But you
may well underestimate the amount of keen-ness that would require.

On 10/02/2012 00:00, thirty-six wrote:
On Feb 9, 10:39 pm, Clive wrote:
On 09/02/2012 21:37, thirty-six wrote:

On Feb 9, 5:04 pm, Clive wrote:
On 09/02/2012 16:20, thirty-six wrote:

Hmm is there any of these oil/gas suspended motor-carriages with 4wd
for off-road capability (and zi;pping out from slippy negative camber
corners) and a gutsy engine.

BX GTI 4x4, but the 4wd was fragile and you'll really struggle to find
one these days.

If you mean fragile steering arm or the like, can't replacements of
the delicate sporty bits be used from the base of the range to toughen
it up. Or do you mean it's built from Turkey foil?

I mean what I said : the 4wd was fragile. That is, the bits which make
it 4wd were - the non-4wd bits were like the 2wd versions. There's no
delicate sporty bits on a BX GTi.

So is a 2wd Citroen with tall tyres going to withstand a few miles
life of going through the potholes at speed?

As much as any other car of similar age.

Or there's the BX 4TC, but that's a proper racing car and most were
scrapped by the factory after they didn't do well enough, so unless
you've insanely rich you'll not get one.

Correct, I'll likely be saving something from the scrapyard. So how
much will a new set of bubbles cost should I prefer a different spring
rate?

25 quid a go, one on each corner but you won't change the spring rate,
only the damping. If you look around you can get ones with different
sized holes for different cars.

Seems a reasonable cost to factor in if there are no other obvious
faults. Other than sagging suspension is there anything else an aging
Citreon will generally suffer with apart from the ordinary interior
degredation?

They're all 18+ years old. Tin worm will have taken care of most. The
XUD engines are actually pretty sturdy, but that's diesel and not a GTi 4x4.

The suspension won't sag like on a car with metal springs - if the bits
work, that's one area it'll do well on.

On Feb 10, 1:13*am, Clive George wrote:
On 10/02/2012 00:00, thirty-six wrote:









On Feb 9, 10:39 pm, Clive *wrote:
On 09/02/2012 21:37, thirty-six wrote:

On Feb 9, 5:04 pm, Clive * *wrote:
On 09/02/2012 16:20, thirty-six wrote:

Hmm is there any of these oil/gas suspended motor-carriages with 4wd
for off-road capability (and zi;pping out from slippy negative camber
corners) *and a gutsy engine.

BX GTI 4x4, but the 4wd was fragile and you'll really struggle to find
one these days.

If you mean fragile steering arm or the like, can't replacements of
the delicate sporty bits be used from the base of the range to toughen
it up. *Or do you mean it's built from Turkey foil?

I mean what I said : the 4wd was fragile. That is, the bits which make
it 4wd were - the non-4wd bits were like the 2wd versions. There's no
delicate sporty bits on a BX GTi.

So is a 2wd Citroen with tall tyres going to withstand a few miles
life of going through the potholes at speed?

As much as any other car of similar age.









Or there's the BX 4TC, but that's a proper racing car and most were
scrapped by the factory after they didn't do well enough, so unless
you've insanely rich you'll not get one.

Correct, I'll likely be saving something from the scrapyard. *So how
much will a new set of bubbles cost should I prefer a different spring
rate?

25 quid a go, one on each corner but you won't change the spring rate,
only the damping. If you look around you can get ones with different
sized holes for different cars.

Seems a reasonable cost to factor in if there are no other obvious
faults. *Other than sagging suspension is there anything else an aging
Citreon will generally suffer with apart from the ordinary interior
degredation?

They're all 18+ years old. Tin worm will have taken care of most. The
XUD engines are actually pretty sturdy, but that's diesel and not a GTi 4x4.

The suspension won't sag like on a car with metal springs - if the bits
work, that's one area it'll do well on.

Okey doke.

Clive George wrote:

They're all 18+ years old. Tin worm will have taken care of most. The XUD
engines are actually pretty sturdy, but that's diesel and not a GTi 4x4.

The suspension won't sag like on a car with metal springs - if the bits
work, that's one area it'll do well on.

Only because they can "hide" any loss of pressure in their spheres by self
levelling. An old one will almost certainly need new spheres.

Tim

Tim wrote:
Clive George wrote:
They're all 18+ years old. Tin worm will have taken care of most. The XUD
engines are actually pretty sturdy, but that's diesel and not a GTi 4x4.

The suspension won't sag like on a car with metal springs - if the bits
work, that's one area it'll do well on.

Only because they can "hide" any loss of pressure in their spheres by self
levelling. An old one will almost certainly need new spheres.

If the suspension has gone hard, (In other words, if you can really
*feel* a speed bump when you go over one, or you have trouble persuading
the car to go down and then back up again quickly by leaning hard on a
corner), go to your local backstreet Citroen specialist, not the main
dealer. All the spheres can often be regassed without dismantling the
suspension for a lot less than replacement, but the main dealer won't
admit to knowing how. Also, a clicking pressure regulator with the
associated rear end droop after being parked for a while can be cured
nine times out of ten by changing or re-gassing the accumulator sphere,
which on a BX or GSA is a five minute job.

When the spheres finally give up, you can often get second hand spheres
which have been regassed. The expensive problem on the brakes and
suspension on all the cars that use the Citroen hydraulic suspension is
when the pipes start to get rusty. I counted eleven of them running
across the front cross member on my BX, they're not easy to get out or
in, and they hold well over 80 Bar when the engine's running.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

John Williamson wrote:
Tim wrote:
Clive George wrote:
They're all 18+ years old. Tin worm will have taken care of most. The XUD
engines are actually pretty sturdy, but that's diesel and not a GTi 4x4.

The suspension won't sag like on a car with metal springs - if the bits
work, that's one area it'll do well on.
Only because they can "hide" any loss of pressure in their spheres by self
levelling. An old one will almost certainly need new spheres.

If the suspension has gone hard, (In other words, if you can really
*feel* a speed bump when you go over one, or you have trouble persuading
the car to go down and then back up again quickly by leaning hard on a
corner), go to your local backstreet Citroen specialist, not the main
dealer. All the spheres can often be regassed without dismantling the
suspension for a lot less than replacement, but the main dealer won't
admit to knowing how. Also, a clicking pressure regulator with the
associated rear end droop after being parked for a while can be cured
nine times out of ten by changing or re-gassing the accumulator sphere,
which on a BX or GSA is a five minute job.

When the spheres finally give up, you can often get second hand spheres
which have been regassed. The expensive problem on the brakes and
suspension on all the cars that use the Citroen hydraulic suspension is
when the pipes start to get rusty. I counted eleven of them running
across the front cross member on my BX, they're not easy to get out or
in, and they hold well over 80 Bar when the engine's running.

You're quite right, I was just pointing out that just because they don't
look saggy, it doesn't mean that the "springs" are okay.

Tim

Tim wrote:

You're quite right, I was just pointing out that just because they don't
look saggy, it doesn't mean that the "springs" are okay.

At least they're generally easier to fix than real springs, and in my
experience, the roadholding and comfort are excellent, given decent tyres.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In article ,
Clive George wrote:
The suspension won't sag like on a car with metal springs - if the bits
work, that's one area it'll do well on.

Coil springs don't normally sag. That was reserved for leaf springs - and
not many of those around these days. Coil springs can break, though. But
the spheres on a Citroen have a definite life - rather shorter than
springs?

--
*If one synchronized swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown too?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Feb 10, 10:53*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
* *Clive George wrote:

The suspension won't sag like on a car with metal springs - if the bits
work, that's one area it'll do well on.

Coil springs don't normally sag. That was reserved for leaf springs - and
not many of those around these days. Coil springs can break, though. But
the spheres on a Citroen have a definite life - rather shorter than
springs?

Unless it's a budget Ford.

In article
,
thirty-six wrote:
On Feb 10, 10:53 am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
Clive George wrote:

The suspension won't sag like on a car with metal springs - if the
bits work, that's one area it'll do well on.

Coil springs don't normally sag. That was reserved for leaf springs -
and not many of those around these days. Coil springs can break,
though. But the spheres on a Citroen have a definite life - rather
shorter than springs?

Unless it's a budget Ford.

You seem to be living in the past. Ford no longer make 'budget' cars any
more than any other large maker. For those you need to go elsewhere.

FWIW, only one large UK maker did produced a designed for the purpose
'budget' car - and that was your favourite, BL, in the shape of the
dreadful Marina. Ford did have a few based on older models or basic
versions of others.

--
*Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10/02/2012 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Clive wrote:
The suspension won't sag like on a car with metal springs - if the bits
work, that's one area it'll do well on.

Coil springs don't normally sag. That was reserved for leaf springs - and
not many of those around these days.

Torsion bars sag too - take a look at an old tired 306 for an example.

Coil springs can break, though. But
the spheres on a Citroen have a definite life - rather shorter than
springs?

Yup, shorter than springs, comparable to dampers, and they do both jobs.
Rather easier to replace than either.

In article ,
Clive George wrote:
Coil springs can break, though. But
the spheres on a Citroen have a definite life - rather shorter than
springs?

Yup, shorter than springs, comparable to dampers, and they do both jobs.
Rather easier to replace than either.

I've no experience of them, but have read plenty horror stories of the
spheres being difficult to remove on an older car.

I can change the rear coil springs and dampers on my car in a very short
time indeed. Strut types take longer - but still no big deal if you have
the correct tools.

--
*Husband and cat lost -- reward for cat

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Clive George wrote:
Coil springs can break, though. But
the spheres on a Citroen have a definite life - rather shorter than
springs?

Yup, shorter than springs, comparable to dampers, and they do both jobs.
Rather easier to replace than either.

I've no experience of them, but have read plenty horror stories of the
spheres being difficult to remove on an older car.

I've owned a number, most of which were well into old bangerdom, and
I've never known it take the specialists more than half an hour to
change a pair of spheres. You just need the right tools, and it's a job
that it's worth going to the specialists for, as it is almost impossible
without the right tools. First time regassing takes about half an hour
per sphere, as they neeed to install a special valve, after that, it
takes moments.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:53:56 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Clive George wrote:
The suspension won't sag like on a car with metal springs - if the bits
work, that's one area it'll do well on.

Coil springs don't normally sag. That was reserved for leaf springs - and
not many of those around these days. Coil springs can break, though. But
the spheres on a Citroen have a definite life - rather shorter than
springs?

Citroen also design their metal sprung vehicles in a strange way -
break a front spring on some models, which happends quite often even
when driven on near perfect roads, and the spring will rip a hole in
the tyre.


--