On Fri, 7 Oct 2011 11:41:52 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:

That's something I dislike about modern cars. With oldies one can
always use the handbrake if the main brake fails.

Depends on the "oldie" some have transmission brakes rather than a
brake that acts on the wheels. One has to be very cautious how one
applies it if moving, same applies to modern cars that also have
transmission brakes.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message , Nightjar
writes
On 07/10/2011 16:35, Ret. wrote:
In whill.co.uk,
says...

On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 13:58:19 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The big snag is most vehicles have both power steering and brakes. One
being towed with the engine stopped will have neither.

Well it will, I don't think a vechicle that had absolutely no
steering or brakes without the engine running would be allowed on the
road. How ever the effort required to turn the steering wheel and get
effective braking is huge. I wouldn't want to be towed in a modern
car via rope unless the route was straight and flat or just a very
short distance.

I guess many people get caught by the fact the first application of
the brakes after the engine is stopped is normally fairly normal from
stored vacuum. It's the second and subsequent ones when you have
literally stand on the pedal...

So towing with a rope should be done with great caution - and only if
both drivers have experience of doing so.

I have towed and have been towed by rope, I prefer to be the tug.
When being towed you are *very* close to the tug and really have to
concentrate looking past the tug so you can anticipate the tug
slowing and keep the rope taught. The tug just (ha!) has to remember
that the rope might be slack and pull off very gently until they feel
the weight come on or can see that the towed vehicle is moving.

Yes - and no matter how careful you are, it is very very difficult to
keep the rope taught - and consequently there are frequently fearful
'snatches' as the slack in the rope is taken up.

One reason I chose nylon when I made up a tow rope for my first car. It
was probably the most expensive rope available, but it had a lot of
stretch, which avoided most of the snatching.

Colin Bignell
You could always use an off-road kinetic rope (carefully!!).
--
hugh

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Fri, 7 Oct 2011 11:41:52 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:

That's something I dislike about modern cars. With oldies one can
always use the handbrake if the main brake fails.

Depends on the "oldie" some have transmission brakes rather than a
brake that acts on the wheels. One has to be very cautious how one
applies it if moving, same applies to modern cars that also have
transmission brakes.

Land Rover Defenders still have.
--
hugh

In message , Andy Champ
writes
On 07/10/2011 18:48, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I don't think it is legal now, nor was it then.

AFAIK you can only tow a bike from another bike.

Interestingly the highway code now merely says "In the event of a
breakdown, be aware that towing a vehicle on a tow rope is potentially
dangerous. You should consider professional recovery." And nothing
else at all.

Andy
Crossing the road is also potentially dangerous.
--
hugh

Andy Champ brought next idea :
AFAIK you can only tow a bike from another bike.

Towing bike with bike was allowed then (not sure about now) but towing
bike with car has never been allowed.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...

I have read that rigid tow bars are, however, a requirement when towing on
a motorway, but have not found the relevant legislation.

There is a minimum speed limit on motorways..
there is a maximum of 4.5 m of rope allowed..
you can't reach the minimum speed limit without being done for dangerous
driving with only 4.5 m of spacing.

You need about 1 second of reaction time before you can start braking, this
would equate to less than 15 (22 ft/sec) mph with the 4.5 m spacing.
Then there is the problem of actually slowing down.

As i see it towing with a rope is just too slow to go any distance.

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 07/10/2011 11:27, Jim S wrote:
I asked this question in another group and no-one came up with a
definitive
current answer. The most recent legal(ish) answer was dated 2008

" I was informed last evening that it is illegal to tow a broken down
vehicle with a rope and it has to be a solid tow-bar. Is this true?"


Towing is covered by the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations
1986, which, in Regulation 85 (1), states:

'Where a trailer is attached to the vehicle immediately in front of it
solely by means of a rope or chain, the distance between the trailer and
that vehicle shall not in any case exceed 4.5 m, and shall not exceed 1.5
m unless the rope or chain is made clearly visible to any other person
using the road within a reasonable distance from either side.'

I have read that rigid tow bars are, however, a requirement when towing
on a motorway, but have not found the relevant legislation.

Colin Bignell

IIRC you can tow off a motorway with a rope, but not tow onto one. A rigid
bar can be used to tow on and off. That is however from some time ago.

I think you are allowed to tow off a motorway but not onto one even with a
rigid bar.
those specially designed towing devices that steer the car or jack up the
front wheels are OK AFAIK.

"Rick Hughes" wrote in message
...


Be warned that if you offer to Tow someone they could end up damaging your
car, and you 'may' not be covered for this.
My Father towed my sister, he stopped at junction ... she forgot that
brake servos don't operate and piled into back of his car ... he wasn't
very happy.

*He* should have made allowances for that, it is *his* fault for going too
fast.

dennis@home wrote:


I think you are allowed to tow off a motorway but not onto one even with a
rigid bar.
those specially designed towing devices that steer the car or jack up the
front wheels are OK AFAIK.

As the front wheels have a castor angle, you get a degree of self steering
anyway with an A-frame for twoing at least at reasonable (upto 20-30mph)
speeds.

The problem comes with trying to attach an A frame to anything other than a
landie or similar

--
Tim Watts

On Oct 8, 3:20 am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 13:58:19 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
The big snag is most vehicles have both power steering and brakes. One
being towed with the engine stopped will have neither.

Well it will, I don't think a vechicle that had absolutely no
steering or brakes without the engine running would be allowed on the
road. How ever the effort required to turn the steering wheel and get
effective braking is huge. I wouldn't want to be towed in a modern
car via rope unless the route was straight and flat or just a very
short distance.

I used to have a large V8 that ran on CNG and petrol.
The CNG was extremely cheap but would run the car for about 120km.
Then the engine would stop and the steering and brakes needed more
effort to use. But not a problem. I would run out of CNG several times
a week so I got used to it.

On Fri, 7 Oct 2011 21:00:14 +0100, hugh wrote:

One has to be very cautious how one applies it if moving, same
applies
to modern cars that also have transmission brakes.

Land Rover Defenders still have.

So do Discoverys up to series II. Not sure where the nasty electronic
thing on a DIII or IV operates. What ever I bet there is a damn
computer between the switch and the works so putting the hand brake
on as any form as an emergancy brake probably won't be allowed. Of
course a clever software designer would allow it under some
circumstances.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Fri, 7 Oct 2011 13:32:22 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 13:58:19 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article
,
NT wrote:
'Its potentially dangerous,' as is all driving. Its just stating the
completely obvious, at least to any person capable of driving. Any
towee will be aware of the risks of travelling very close to the
vehicle in front, with no ability to see ahead if its a van, no ability
to steer one's course or even stop the combined vehicles.

The big snag is most vehicles have both power steering and brakes. One
being towed with the engine stopped will have neither. So towing with a
rope should be done with great caution - and only if both drivers have
experience of doing so.

And don't do what a friend of mine once did, and forget to put the key in
the ignition of the towed vehicle to release the steering column lock ;-)
Apparently he managed a quite graceful drift into the side of a parked
van.

....or a telegraph pole

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiMRFaArTVQ


--

On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 21:46:11 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

"Rick Hughes" wrote in message
...


Be warned that if you offer to Tow someone they could end up damaging
your car, and you 'may' not be covered for this. My Father towed my
sister, he stopped at junction ... she forgot that brake servos don't
operate and piled into back of his car ... he wasn't very happy.

*He* should have made allowances for that, it is *his* fault for going
too fast.

Sigh. Yes, dennis.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 20:40:07 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Fri, 7 Oct 2011 11:41:52 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:

That's something I dislike about modern cars. With oldies one can
always use the handbrake if the main brake fails.

Depends on the "oldie" some have transmission brakes rather than a brake
that acts on the wheels. One has to be very cautious how one applies it
if moving, same applies to modern cars that also have transmission
brakes.

Oh yes. Takes me back to my Series I Land Rover...!



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 21:40:35 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...

I have read that rigid tow bars are, however, a requirement when towing
on a motorway, but have not found the relevant legislation.

There is a minimum speed limit on motorways..

What is it?

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

Bob Eager wrote:
On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 21:40:35 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...

I have read that rigid tow bars are, however, a requirement when towing
on a motorway, but have not found the relevant legislation.
There is a minimum speed limit on motorways..

What is it?

-1 mph

On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 15:37:21 -0700, Matty F wrote:

On Oct 8, 3:20 am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 13:58:19 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
The big snag is most vehicles have both power steering and brakes.
One being towed with the engine stopped will have neither.

Well it will, I don't think a vechicle that had absolutely no steering
or brakes without the engine running would be allowed on the road. How
ever the effort required to turn the steering wheel and get effective
braking is huge. I wouldn't want to be towed in a modern car via rope
unless the route was straight and flat or just a very short distance.

I used to have a large V8 that ran on CNG and petrol. The CNG was
extremely cheap but would run the car for about 120km. Then the engine
would stop and the steering and brakes needed more effort to use. But
not a problem. I would run out of CNG several times a week so I got used
to it.

I almost bought a car (I think it was a Peugeot) in NZ which had been
converted back from CNG to petrol* - I gather CNG was quite popular as a
fuel there once, but had been gradually going out of fashion for some
reason?

* which implies there were some differences between the setups - unless
the "conversion" involved simply removing all the bits to do with the CNG
side...

As I mentioned elsewhere, I've got no power brakes - or power steering -
on the truck; I just got used to it needing major effort to stop, or to
steer at low speeds. I tend to find that most power steering feels a bit
on the light side (particularly in cars) anyway.

cheers

Jules

On Oct 7, 8:59*pm, hugh ] wrote:

One reason I chose nylon when I made up a tow rope for my first car.

You could always use an off-road kinetic rope (carefully!!).

My KERR (and my hi-lift) is kept with a padlock between the ends to
stop you using it. There are only a few people I'd trust to use it,
and several of them are ex REME.

For similar reasons I don't tow on a nylon rope. My recovery rope is
nylon, but for towing I switch to polyester.

On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 20:40:07 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Fri, 7 Oct 2011 11:41:52 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:

That's something I dislike about modern cars. With oldies one can
always use the handbrake if the main brake fails.

Depends on the "oldie" some have transmission brakes rather than a brake
that acts on the wheels. One has to be very cautious how one applies it
if moving, same applies to modern cars that also have transmission
brakes.

It's quite common on vehicles over here for there to be no handbrake;
instead they have a ratcheting foot-pedal to operate the parking brake
mechanism, with a handle (typically on the dash just above the pedal)
that then has to be pulled to disengage again. My elderly Ford has one,
so the design's been around for over 40 years.

I'm not sure how unique to the US that setup is, or - more importantly -
what the logic is for it vs. a normal handbrake between the front seats*,
but I've never risked trying to operate it whilst moving. I suspect it'd
all get ugly pretty easily :-)

* except that the Ford has a bench seat, so there's no "between"; perhaps
it's just left over from days when such seats in vehicles were common,
but handbrakes became common on vehicles elsewhere in the world?

cheers

Jules

On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 23:33:39 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 21:40:35 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...

I have read that rigid tow bars are, however, a requirement when
towing on a motorway, but have not found the relevant legislation.

There is a minimum speed limit on motorways..

What is it?

and what point of reference is it relative to? :-)

On Oct 8, 12:58 pm, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 15:37:21 -0700, Matty F wrote:
On Oct 8, 3:20 am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 13:58:19 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
The big snag is most vehicles have both power steering and brakes.
One being towed with the engine stopped will have neither.

Well it will, I don't think a vechicle that had absolutely no steering
or brakes without the engine running would be allowed on the road. How
ever the effort required to turn the steering wheel and get effective
braking is huge. I wouldn't want to be towed in a modern car via rope
unless the route was straight and flat or just a very short distance.

I used to have a large V8 that ran on CNG and petrol. The CNG was
extremely cheap but would run the car for about 120km. Then the engine
would stop and the steering and brakes needed more effort to use. But
not a problem. I would run out of CNG several times a week so I got used
to it.

I almost bought a car (I think it was a Peugeot) in NZ which had been
converted back from CNG to petrol* - I gather CNG was quite popular as a
fuel there once, but had been gradually going out of fashion for some
reason?

* which implies there were some differences between the setups - unless
the "conversion" involved simply removing all the bits to do with the CNG
side...

To run on CNG it was just necessary to blow the gas into the
carburettor just after the air filter. And of course to have a bloody
great tank in the boot.
My 6 litre V8 on CNG was as cheap to run as my wife's Mazda 323. The
CNG came straight out of the ground here in NZ until it ran out, by
burning it to generate electric power.

On Oct 7, 9:01*pm, hugh ] wrote:
In message , Andy Champ
writesOn 07/10/2011 18:48, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I don't think it is legal now, nor was it then.

AFAIK you can only tow a bike from another bike.

Interestingly the highway code now merely says "In the event of a
breakdown, be aware that towing a vehicle on a tow rope is potentially
dangerous. You should consider professional recovery." *And nothing
else at all.

Andy

Crossing the road is also potentially dangerous.
--
hugh

A real danger is if a pedestrian steps over the rope as you set off at
a road junction. (not realising towing is in progress).

On Oct 8, 1:06*am, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 20:40:07 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 7 Oct 2011 11:41:52 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:

That's something I dislike about modern cars. With oldies one can
always use the handbrake if the main brake fails.

Depends on the "oldie" some have transmission brakes rather than a brake
that acts on the wheels. One has to be very cautious how one applies it
if moving, same applies to modern cars that also have transmission
brakes.

It's quite common on vehicles over here for there to be no handbrake;
instead they have a ratcheting foot-pedal to operate the parking brake
mechanism, with a handle (typically on the dash just above the pedal)
that then has to be pulled to disengage again. My elderly Ford has one,
so the design's been around for over 40 years.

I'm not sure how unique to the US that setup is, or - more importantly -
what the logic is for it vs. a normal handbrake between the front seats*,
but I've never risked trying to operate it whilst moving. I suspect it'd
all get ugly pretty easily :-)

* except that the Ford has a bench seat, so there's no "between"; perhaps
it's just left over from days when such seats in vehicles were common,
but handbrakes became common on vehicles elsewhere in the world?

cheers

Jules

In the UK, handbrakes have always had to be indepenednt which would
preclude such things.

harry used his keyboard to write :
On Oct 7, 9:01*pm, hugh ] wrote:
In message , Andy Champ
writesOn 07/10/2011 18:48, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I don't think it is legal now, nor was it then.
AFAIK you can only tow a bike from another bike.
Interestingly the highway code now merely says "In the event of a
breakdown, be aware that towing a vehicle on a tow rope is potentially
dangerous. You should consider professional recovery." *And nothing
else at all.

Andy

Crossing the road is also potentially dangerous.
--
hugh

A real danger is if a pedestrian steps over the rope as you set off at
a road junction. (not realising towing is in progress).

Once had a male pedestrian climb between car and caravan on a city
centre, just as I was about to pull away at the lights. So climbing
over a tow rope would not surprise me at all.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

In article
,
harry wrote:
It's quite common on vehicles over here for there to be no handbrake;
instead they have a ratcheting foot-pedal to operate the parking brake
mechanism, with a handle (typically on the dash just above the pedal)
that then has to be pulled to disengage again. My elderly Ford has
one, so the design's been around for over 40 years.

I'm not sure how unique to the US that setup is, or - more importantly
- what the logic is for it vs. a normal handbrake between the front
seats*, but I've never risked trying to operate it whilst moving. I
suspect it'd all get ugly pretty easily :-)

* except that the Ford has a bench seat, so there's no "between";
perhaps it's just left over from days when such seats in vehicles were
common, but handbrakes became common on vehicles elsewhere in the
world?

cheers

Jules

In the UK, handbrakes have always had to be indepenednt which would
preclude such things.

Foot pedal operated parking brakes are legal in the UK. Some M-B use them.
And 'independant' is a large variable. Most share parts with the footbrake
- drums or discs and pads and shoes - and many older a great deal more.
The Austin 7 for example had the handbrake operate on the actual footbrake
mechanism.

IIRC, the requirements for a handbrake efficiency have changed since most
cars now have dual circuit brakes, so it is now only a parking brake
rather than that plus an emergency one.

--
*Forget about World Peace...Visualize using your turn signal.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Huge wrote:
On 2011-10-07, Bob Eager wrote:
On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 21:40:35 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...

I have read that rigid tow bars are, however, a requirement when
towing on a motorway, but have not found the relevant legislation.

There is a minimum speed limit on motorways..

Right, that's it. [unplonk]

What is it?

C'mon, dennis, what's the minimum speed limit on motorways?

Real motorways or the ones in dennisworld?

--
Adam

NT explained on 07/10/2011 :
That's something I dislike about modern cars. With oldies one can
always use the handbrake if the main brake fails.

Modern cars still have hand brakes, or were you referring to some other
aspect?

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On Oct 7, 8:37*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Fri, 7 Oct 2011 11:36:08 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:
The loss of power steering is trivial.

That depends on how heavy the steering is without the power
assistance. On the old Mondeo it wasn't to bad, heavy certainly but
you didn't need almost every bit of upper body strength and heave the
wheel round with both hands on the same side like my current car
needs.

Power steering on cars is only in any sense necessary at parking
speeds. Even small trucks can be driven with no PS.


NT

On 07/10/2011 20:59, hugh wrote:
In message , Nightjar
writes
On 07/10/2011 16:35, Ret. wrote:
In whill.co.uk,
says...

On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 13:58:19 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The big snag is most vehicles have both power steering and brakes. One
being towed with the engine stopped will have neither.

Well it will, I don't think a vechicle that had absolutely no
steering or brakes without the engine running would be allowed on the
road. How ever the effort required to turn the steering wheel and get
effective braking is huge. I wouldn't want to be towed in a modern
car via rope unless the route was straight and flat or just a very
short distance.

I guess many people get caught by the fact the first application of
the brakes after the engine is stopped is normally fairly normal from
stored vacuum. It's the second and subsequent ones when you have
literally stand on the pedal...

So towing with a rope should be done with great caution - and only if
both drivers have experience of doing so.

I have towed and have been towed by rope, I prefer to be the tug.
When being towed you are *very* close to the tug and really have to
concentrate looking past the tug so you can anticipate the tug
slowing and keep the rope taught. The tug just (ha!) has to remember
that the rope might be slack and pull off very gently until they feel
the weight come on or can see that the towed vehicle is moving.

Yes - and no matter how careful you are, it is very very difficult to
keep the rope taught - and consequently there are frequently fearful
'snatches' as the slack in the rope is taken up.

One reason I chose nylon when I made up a tow rope for my first car.
It was probably the most expensive rope available, but it had a lot of
stretch, which avoided most of the snatching.

Colin Bignell
You could always use an off-road kinetic rope (carefully!!).

I suspect that would be rather scary. I also don't know whether they
even existed that far back in time.

Colin Bignell

On Oct 8, 8:10*am, harry wrote:
On Oct 8, 1:06*am, Jules Richardson



wrote:
On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 20:40:07 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 7 Oct 2011 11:41:52 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:

That's something I dislike about modern cars. With oldies one can
always use the handbrake if the main brake fails.

Depends on the "oldie" some have transmission brakes rather than a brake
that acts on the wheels. One has to be very cautious how one applies it
if moving, same applies to modern cars that also have transmission
brakes.

It's quite common on vehicles over here for there to be no handbrake;
instead they have a ratcheting foot-pedal to operate the parking brake
mechanism, with a handle (typically on the dash just above the pedal)
that then has to be pulled to disengage again. My elderly Ford has one,
so the design's been around for over 40 years.

I'm not sure how unique to the US that setup is, or - more importantly -
what the logic is for it vs. a normal handbrake between the front seats*,
but I've never risked trying to operate it whilst moving. I suspect it'd
all get ugly pretty easily :-)

* except that the Ford has a bench seat, so there's no "between"; perhaps
it's just left over from days when such seats in vehicles were common,
but handbrakes became common on vehicles elsewhere in the world?

cheers

Jules

In the UK, handbrakes have always had to be indepenednt which would
preclude such things.

relying on hydraulics to stay totally airtight for extended periods,
or else vehicles can set off down a hill, sounds an inherently risky
approach.


NT

On Oct 8, 9:28*am, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
* *harry wrote:



It's quite common on vehicles over here for there to be no handbrake;
instead they have a ratcheting foot-pedal to operate the parking brake
mechanism, with a handle (typically on the dash just above the pedal)
that then has to be pulled to disengage again. My elderly Ford has
one, so the design's been around for over 40 years.

I'm not sure how unique to the US that setup is, or - more importantly
- what the logic is for it vs. a normal handbrake between the front
seats*, but I've never risked trying to operate it whilst moving. I
suspect it'd all get ugly pretty easily :-)

* except that the Ford has a bench seat, so there's no "between";
perhaps it's just left over from days when such seats in vehicles were
common, but handbrakes became common on vehicles elsewhere in the
world?

cheers

Jules
In the UK, handbrakes have always had to be indepenednt which would
preclude such things.

Foot pedal operated parking brakes are legal in the UK. Some M-B use them..
And 'independant' is a large variable. Most share parts with the footbrake
- drums or discs and pads and shoes - and many older a great deal more.
The Austin 7 for example had the handbrake operate on the actual footbrake
mechanism.

IIRC, the requirements for a handbrake efficiency have changed since most
cars now have dual circuit brakes, so it is now only a parking brake
rather than that plus an emergency one.

Yes, they've dropped to the point of being useless to stop a car.
Someone somewhere must have naively believed the idea that dual
circuits brakes dont fail if one circuit leaks. I can assure you they
do.


NT

On Oct 8, 10:54*am, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:
NT explained on 07/10/2011 :

That's something I dislike about modern cars. With oldies one can
always use the handbrake if the main brake fails.

Modern cars still have hand brakes, or were you referring to some other
aspect?

but they're rather ineffective now. Go back to the 50s and you can
drive with them.


NT

In article
,
NT wrote:
On Oct 7, 8:37 pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Fri, 7 Oct 2011 11:36:08 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:
The loss of power steering is trivial.

That depends on how heavy the steering is without the power
assistance. On the old Mondeo it wasn't to bad, heavy certainly but
you didn't need almost every bit of upper body strength and heave the
wheel round with both hands on the same side like my current car
needs.

Power steering on cars is only in any sense necessary at parking
speeds. Even small trucks can be driven with no PS.

I used to drive a Range Rover without power steering - i'd agree about
parking.


NT

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

On Oct 8, 12:33*am, Bob Eager wrote:
On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 21:40:35 +0100, dennis@home wrote:
"Nightjar" wrote in message
m...

I have read that rigid tow bars are, however, a requirement when towing
on a motorway, but have not found the relevant legislation.

There is a minimum speed limit on motorways..

What is it?

I always understood it was 30. He's allowed to be right once a
century.


NT

NT formulated the question :
but they're rather ineffective now. Go back to the 50s and you can
drive with them.

Both of mine are modern and if I wanted to, I could lock wheels on both
with not very much effort.

I appreciate that they have now reclassified them, but that is not
reason why they should be any less effective.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On Fri, 7 Oct 2011 11:37:11 -0700 (PDT)
NT wrote:

On Oct 7, 4:24Â*pm, charles wrote:
In article ,
Â* Â*The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
o.uk, Dave
Liquorice wrote:
The big snag is most vehicles have both power steering and
brakes. One being towed with the engine stopped will have
neither.

Well it will, I don't think a vechicle that had absolutely no
steering or brakes without the engine running would be allowed
on the road.

Neither *power* steering or brakes. Didn't say no steering or
brakes *at all* Although to some it might appear just like that.

and worse, after an hour, in fog, no lights either...

It depends on what the fault is. Â*Possibly the engine/alternator
still works.

but, strickly speaking, the towed vehicle is a trailer and would
need a "trailer" lighting bar at the back - powered from the towing
one.

If you put the engine in high gear, with ignition switched off, you
get power brakes and electricity.


NT

That depends on why the tow is taking place. If most towing is done
because of engine or gearbox failure, this could cause a lot more
damage. If it is because of anything to do with most other
mechanicals, you shouldn't be towing it.
--
Davey.

On Sat, 8 Oct 2011 00:06:08 -0700 (PDT)
harry wrote:

On Oct 7, 9:01Â*pm, hugh ] wrote:
In message , Andy
Champ writesOn 07/10/2011 18:48, Harry
Bloomfield wrote:
I don't think it is legal now, nor was it then.

AFAIK you can only tow a bike from another bike.

Interestingly the highway code now merely says "In the event of a
breakdown, be aware that towing a vehicle on a tow rope is
potentially dangerous. You should consider professional recovery."
Â*And nothing else at all.

Andy

Crossing the road is also potentially dangerous.
--
hugh

A real danger is if a pedestrian steps over the rope as you set off at
a road junction. (not realising towing is in progress).

We once had a cyclist do that, despite a warning rag on the rope. He
was 'head down, I'm going this way' over the slack rope, until he
suddenly got his bike saddle where he wasn't expecting it as the tow
car pulled away.
--
Davey.

NT wrote:
On Oct 8, 12:33 am, Bob Eager wrote:
On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 21:40:35 +0100, dennis@home wrote:
"Nightjar" wrote in message
...

I have read that rigid tow bars are, however, a requirement when
towing on a motorway, but have not found the relevant legislation.

There is a minimum speed limit on motorways..

What is it?

I always understood it was 30.

It's not.

He's allowed to be right once a
century.

He's not right and a century is not long enough for him to be right.



--
Adam

NT wrote:
On Oct 8, 9:28 am, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:



It's quite common on vehicles over here for there to be no handbrake;
instead they have a ratcheting foot-pedal to operate the parking brake
mechanism, with a handle (typically on the dash just above the pedal)
that then has to be pulled to disengage again. My elderly Ford has
one, so the design's been around for over 40 years.
I'm not sure how unique to the US that setup is, or - more importantly
- what the logic is for it vs. a normal handbrake between the front
seats*, but I've never risked trying to operate it whilst moving. I
suspect it'd all get ugly pretty easily :-)
* except that the Ford has a bench seat, so there's no "between";
perhaps it's just left over from days when such seats in vehicles were
common, but handbrakes became common on vehicles elsewhere in the
world?
cheers
Jules
In the UK, handbrakes have always had to be indepenednt which would
preclude such things.
Foot pedal operated parking brakes are legal in the UK. Some M-B use them.
And 'independant' is a large variable. Most share parts with the footbrake
- drums or discs and pads and shoes - and many older a great deal more.
The Austin 7 for example had the handbrake operate on the actual footbrake
mechanism.

IIRC, the requirements for a handbrake efficiency have changed since most
cars now have dual circuit brakes, so it is now only a parking brake
rather than that plus an emergency one.

Yes, they've dropped to the point of being useless to stop a car.
Someone somewhere must have naively believed the idea that dual
circuits brakes dont fail if one circuit leaks. I can assure you they
do.


Even back in the 70's they were not that great..

I drove my (heavily modified) Triumph spitfire back from Oxford to
Cambridge after the pipe connecting the (Ford Granada) brake servo
fractured..

Engine braking alone and massive yanks on the handbrake rendered it
feasible..but it was nightmare..I dared not drive fast, and people with
better brakes would overtake, cut in to the massive 5 car length gap I
had to leave, and slam on their anchors..

I am sure it was illegal, but I had not the money to get it trailered
home in those days.


NT

NT wrote:
On Oct 8, 10:54 am, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:
NT explained on 07/10/2011 :

That's something I dislike about modern cars. With oldies one can
always use the handbrake if the main brake fails.
Modern cars still have hand brakes, or were you referring to some other
aspect?

but they're rather ineffective now. Go back to the 50s and you can
drive with them.


Only then because the other cars' brakes were just as ineffective.

Handbrakes haven't got worse, but foot brakes have massively improved.

power assistance and discs..can put the sort of pressure on them that no
cable can.



NT