Just moved home.

The central heating and hot water systems are gravity fed. The HW
cylinder is in an upstairs airing cupboard above the stairs.The top of
the cylinder is only 6-8" below the ceiling with the cold water header
tank on a low platform in the roof space above. Even though the upstairs
hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply to the bath and sink is
woefully slow flowing, this is not helped by the use of modern (no
washer) taps which seem to slow the flow even more.

Can I install a pump in the airing cupboard in the 22mm coming from the
top (output) of the HW cylinder? I only need to boost pressure for the
hot water supply as the cold is at mains pressure and flows fine.

If so can anyone recommend a suitable pump? all I want to do is cut a
length of pipe long enough for the pump to be fitted. I do have an
electrical supply in the airing cupboard already.

Is this the correct way to boost hot water pressure rather than having
to raise the cold water header tank in a gravity fed system?


Martyn

Count de Monet wrote:

Just moved home.

The central heating and hot water systems are gravity fed. The HW
cylinder is in an upstairs airing cupboard above the stairs.The top of
the cylinder is only 6-8" below the ceiling with the cold water header
tank on a low platform in the roof space above. Even though the upstairs
hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply to the bath and sink is
woefully slow flowing, this is not helped by the use of modern (no
washer) taps which seem to slow the flow even more.

Can I install a pump in the airing cupboard in the 22mm coming from the
top (output) of the HW cylinder? I only need to boost pressure for the
hot water supply as the cold is at mains pressure and flows fine.

If so can anyone recommend a suitable pump? all I want to do is cut a
length of pipe long enough for the pump to be fitted. I do have an
electrical supply in the airing cupboard already.

Is this the correct way to boost hot water pressure rather than having
to raise the cold water header tank in a gravity fed system?


Martyn

yes, - but it shouldn't be that slow. Are you sure all the stop cocks are
fully on and not jammed etc? Before I had a combi boiler, my shower head was
only about 18" lower than the bottom of the tank the preasure was not
brillient but it was ok.

Next door has put in a power shower 22mm off the top of the tank and he says
it ok. With a power shower is more preasure, but less water.

--
zaax

On 21/03/2011 19:52, zaax wrote:
Count de Monet wrote:

Just moved home.

The central heating and hot water systems are gravity fed. The HW
cylinder is in an upstairs airing cupboard above the stairs.The top of
the cylinder is only 6-8" below the ceiling with the cold water header
tank on a low platform in the roof space above. Even though the upstairs
hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply to the bath and sink is
woefully slow flowing, this is not helped by the use of modern (no
washer) taps which seem to slow the flow even more.

Can I install a pump in the airing cupboard in the 22mm coming from the
top (output) of the HW cylinder? I only need to boost pressure for the
hot water supply as the cold is at mains pressure and flows fine.

If so can anyone recommend a suitable pump? all I want to do is cut a
length of pipe long enough for the pump to be fitted. I do have an
electrical supply in the airing cupboard already.

Is this the correct way to boost hot water pressure rather than having
to raise the cold water header tank in a gravity fed system?


Martyn

yes, - but it shouldn't be that slow. Are you sure all the stop cocks are
fully on and not jammed etc? Before I had a combi boiler, my shower head was
only about 18" lower than the bottom of the tank the preasure was not
brillient but it was ok.

Next door has put in a power shower 22mm off the top of the tank and he says
it ok. With a power shower is more preasure, but less water.

When I put our power shower in I moved the take off to just above the
hot water cylinder. Cold has a separate take off from the cold tank.

The runs to the old shower had too many sharp right angle bends as well
as a poorish height of head.

Invisible Man wrote:
On 21/03/2011 19:52, zaax wrote:
Count de Monet wrote:

Just moved home.

Even though
the upstairs hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply to
the bath and sink is woefully slow flowing, this is not helped by
the use of modern (no washer) taps which seem to slow the flow even
more.

This is an increasing problem, bearing in mind that the majority of the taps
now for sale in the UK are made in countries that do not have antiquated
gravity-fed water systems and hence are designed to operate with a minumum
mains pressure.

The hot water flow from our modern kitchen tap was pitiful (even though the
header tank was two floors up in the loft). When we switched to a combi
system the flow improved dramatically and is now fine.

--
Triff

Count de Monet wrote:
Just moved home.

The central heating and hot water systems are gravity fed. The HW
cylinder is in an upstairs airing cupboard above the stairs.The top of
the cylinder is only 6-8" below the ceiling with the cold water header
tank on a low platform in the roof space above. Even though the upstairs
hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply to the bath and sink is
woefully slow flowing, this is not helped by the use of modern (no
washer) taps which seem to slow the flow even more.

Can I install a pump in the airing cupboard in the 22mm coming from the
top (output) of the HW cylinder? I only need to boost pressure for the
hot water supply as the cold is at mains pressure and flows fine.

If so can anyone recommend a suitable pump? all I want to do is cut a
length of pipe long enough for the pump to be fitted. I do have an
electrical supply in the airing cupboard already.

Is this the correct way to boost hot water pressure rather than having to
raise the cold water header tank in a gravity fed system?


If you planning on staying put for a good many years I'd recommend getting
a mains pressure hot water tank. Pumps can be noisy (unless very expensive)
and have a limited lifespan. The sound of the pump kicking in when someone
opens a hot tap at night is a potential annoyance.

Tim

On Mar 21, 7:41*pm, Count de Monet wrote:
Just moved home.

The central heating and hot water systems are gravity fed. The HW
cylinder is in an upstairs airing cupboard above the stairs.The top of
the cylinder is only 6-8" below the ceiling with the cold water header
tank on a low platform in the roof space above. Even though the upstairs
hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply to the bath and sink is
woefully slow flowing, this is not helped by the use of modern (no
washer) taps which seem to slow the flow even more.

Can I install a pump in the airing cupboard in the 22mm coming from the
top (output) of the HW cylinder? I only need to boost pressure for the
hot water supply as the cold is at mains pressure and flows fine.

If so can anyone recommend a suitable pump? all I want to do is cut a
length of pipe long enough for the pump to be fitted. I do have an
electrical supply in the airing cupboard already.

Is this the correct way to boost hot water pressure rather than having
to raise the cold water header tank in a gravity fed system?

Martyn

Showers ideally need to have equal pressure on hot and cold supplies
to them. In a good installation the cold water for the shower comes
from the header tank too. You can buy an electric shower pump that has
two pumps, one on each side of the motor. (For the hot and cold
water.) These work well though some are noisy.
There are single pumps for the hot water too. There is a range of
these in the "Screwfix" catalogue.

On Mar 21, 8:10*pm, "Triffid" wrote:
Invisible Man wrote:
On 21/03/2011 19:52, zaax wrote:
Count de Monet wrote:

Just moved home.

*Even though

the upstairs hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply to
the bath and sink is woefully slow flowing, this is not helped by
the use of modern (no washer) taps which seem to slow the flow even
more.

This is an increasing problem, bearing in mind that the majority of the taps
now for sale in the UK are made in countries that do not have antiquated
gravity-fed water systems and hence are designed to operate with a minumum
mains pressure.

The hot water flow from our modern kitchen tap was pitiful (even though the
header tank was two floors up in the loft). When we switched to a combi
system the flow improved dramatically and is now fine.

--
Triff

Combi boilers are just for cheapness. They have no other advantage.
Our traditional system if properly designed is far superior.

On 21/03/2011 19:41, Count de Monet wrote:
Just moved home.

The central heating and hot water systems are gravity fed. The HW
cylinder is in an upstairs airing cupboard above the stairs.The top of
the cylinder is only 6-8" below the ceiling with the cold water header
tank on a low platform in the roof space above. Even though the upstairs
hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply to the bath and sink is
woefully slow flowing, this is not helped by the use of modern (no
washer) taps which seem to slow the flow even more.

Can I install a pump in the airing cupboard in the 22mm coming from the
top (output) of the HW cylinder? I only need to boost pressure for the
hot water supply as the cold is at mains pressure and flows fine.

If so can anyone recommend a suitable pump? all I want to do is cut a
length of pipe long enough for the pump to be fitted. I do have an
electrical supply in the airing cupboard already.

Is this the correct way to boost hot water pressure rather than having
to raise the cold water header tank in a gravity fed system?

If there is enough height I would always raise the header/feed tank.
Although more work there is nothing to go wrong once the installation is
completed.

I live in a bungalow and have installed a shower which has pressure
which is arguably better than that of a pumped shower in a nearby house.
I built a tower for the header/feed tank in the loft. When full the
surface of the cold water is about 6ft above the ceiling joists. The
shower is fed from the hot tank with the cold feed coming from this
header/feed tank, thus equalling the pressures.

Incidentally, I have modern (ceramic disk) mixer taps in the kitchen.
The hot water flows through that tap just a well as it flows through any
of the other traditional taps in the property.


--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:10 pm, "Triffid" wrote:
Invisible Man wrote:
On 21/03/2011 19:52, zaax wrote:
Count de Monet wrote:

Just moved home.

Even though

the upstairs hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply to
the bath and sink is woefully slow flowing, this is not helped by
the use of modern (no washer) taps which seem to slow the flow
even more.

This is an increasing problem, bearing in mind that the majority of
the taps now for sale in the UK are made in countries that do not
have antiquated gravity-fed water systems and hence are designed to
operate with a minumum mains pressure.

The hot water flow from our modern kitchen tap was pitiful (even
though the header tank was two floors up in the loft). When we
switched to a combi system the flow improved dramatically and is now
fine.

--
Triff

Combi boilers are just for cheapness. They have no other advantage.

I don't accept that at all. First of all, when you are not using hot water,
the boiler is concentrating entirely on heating the radiators. The boiler
only heats water that you actually need - so if you don't need much hot
water on a particular day, you aren't wasting money heating up gallons of
water that you will never use.


Our traditional system if properly designed is far superior.

IYO! I have absolutely no regrets about switching to a combi system.

--
Triff

In article 3552795d-bfb5-4397-af7d-7aaf37afdba3
@p3g2000vbv.googlegroups.com, says...
Combi boilers are just for cheapness. They have no other advantage.

Personally I'd rather not have a tank of hot water slowly cooling down.
You pays your money, you takes your choice.
As it happens I'm reluctant to fit a combi in place of our elderly but
still functional Glow Worm 40 because all I ever hear is tales of woe
about how unreliable and expensive they are to fix.
But that doesn't mean I wouldn't like one - just that I don't trust
them.


--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

This is not to increase the flow to a shower, I can't stand for long due
to a disability, I need to up the flow of the upstairs hot water so the
bath fills without a long wait so a single impeller pump in the 22mm hot
flow is all I need. I was hoping this was easier than a: taking out a
perfectly good HW cylinder to replace with a mains pressure one or b:
raising the cold tank in the loft. The pump solution seems, for me the
easier DIY solution. The noise of the pump will only be heard when
running and I can live with that.

Has anyone installed a single impeller pump and which manufacturer was
preferred?

Triffid wrote:
This is an increasing problem, bearing in mind that the majority of the taps
now for sale in the UK are made in countries that do not have antiquated
gravity-fed water systems and hence are designed to operate with a minumum
mains pressure.

Solution: use a modern gravity-fed water system. Is there space to
raise
the cold water header tank as high(er) up as possible. Also, as others
have said, there needs to be a minimum of bends between the tank and
the shower, both hot and cold need to be fed from the same source,
ensure all appropriate taps are open and one other thing: ensure the
incoming ballcock is clear. I got a bit of crud in mine years ago
which meant the tank too 30mins to refill.

My cold water header tank is in the rear Jefferies tube about four
feet above floor level, resulting in about seven feet of head to the
1st floor shower (and a wonderful 18 feet of head to the ground floor
shower!).

The hot water flow from our modern kitchen tap was pitiful (even though the
header tank was two floors up in the loft). When we switched to a combi
system the flow improved dramatically and is now fine.

Like false trips on a RCD, it indicates the "circuitry" is at fault,
not the "supply".

JGH

If you planning on staying put for a good many years I'd recommend getting
a mains pressure hot water tank. Pumps can be noisy (unless very
expensive)
and have a limited lifespan. The sound of the pump kicking in when someone
opens a hot tap at night is a potential annoyance.


Stuart Turner pumps are quiet and reliable (but expensive). If you don't
have a shower, you just need a single impeller pump but, as other posters
said, you really want a Surry / Essex or similar flange on the tank which
might be a PITA to fit on an old system.

You don't really want to feed a shower from a single impeller pump on the
hot, and mains on the cold. It's probably breaking the water regs even with
a non-return valve on the cold.

"Count de Monet" wrote in message
...
This is not to increase the flow to a shower, I can't stand for long due
to a disability, I need to up the flow of the upstairs hot water so the
bath fills without a long wait so a single impeller pump in the 22mm hot
flow is all I need. I was hoping this was easier than a: taking out a
perfectly good HW cylinder to replace with a mains pressure one or b:
raising the cold tank in the loft. The pump solution seems, for me the
easier DIY solution. The noise of the pump will only be heard when running
and I can live with that.

Has anyone installed a single impeller pump and which manufacturer was
preferred?

As I said before, Stuart Turner are the Rolls Royce. They have a clever
impeller (regenerative) which makes them quiet and powerful, and they are
brass and seem to last forever (and you can get spares if they die). I was
lucky enough to pick up a new one on eBay for about half list price.

BES lists a Grundfoss single impeller regenerative for only £112, but it is
plastic rather than brass. I was getting about 5 years out of cheap power
shower pumps before I moved to ST. BES also stocks several types of shower
pump flange.

19507 SSR-1.5 C (1.5 bar outlet) regenerative mains shower pump

On Mar 21, 9:13*pm, "Triffid" wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:10 pm, "Triffid" wrote:
Invisible Man wrote:
On 21/03/2011 19:52, zaax wrote:
Count de Monet wrote:

Just moved home.

Even though

the upstairs hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply to
the bath and sink is woefully slow flowing, this is not helped by
the use of modern (no washer) taps which seem to slow the flow
even more.

This is an increasing problem, bearing in mind that the majority of
the taps now for sale in the UK are made in countries that do not
have antiquated gravity-fed water systems and hence are designed to
operate with a minumum mains pressure.

The hot water flow from our modern kitchen tap was pitiful (even
though the header tank was two floors up in the loft). When we
switched to a combi system the flow improved dramatically and is now
fine.

--
Triff

Combi boilers are just for cheapness. They have no other advantage.

I don't accept that at all. First of all, when you are not using hot water,
the boiler is concentrating entirely on heating the radiators. The boiler
only heats water that you actually need - so if you don't need much hot
water on a particular day, you aren't wasting money heating up gallons of
water that you will never use.

Our traditional system if properly designed is far superior.

IYO! *I have absolutely no regrets about switching to a combi system.

--
Triff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You will when the repair bills start to come in.

On Mar 21, 9:12*pm, Old Codger wrote:
On 21/03/2011 19:41, Count de Monet wrote:





Just moved home.

The central heating and hot water systems are gravity fed. The HW
cylinder is in an upstairs airing cupboard above the stairs.The top of
the cylinder is only 6-8" below the ceiling with the cold water header
tank on a low platform in the roof space above. Even though the upstairs
hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply to the bath and sink is
woefully slow flowing, this is not helped by the use of modern (no
washer) taps which seem to slow the flow even more.

Can I install a pump in the airing cupboard in the 22mm coming from the
top (output) of the HW cylinder? I only need to boost pressure for the
hot water supply as the cold is at mains pressure and flows fine.

If so can anyone recommend a suitable pump? all I want to do is cut a
length of pipe long enough for the pump to be fitted. I do have an
electrical supply in the airing cupboard already.

Is this the correct way to boost hot water pressure rather than having
to raise the cold water header tank in a gravity fed system?

If there is enough height I would always raise the header/feed tank.
Although more work there is nothing to go wrong once the installation is
completed.

I live in a bungalow and have installed a shower which has pressure
which is arguably better than that of a pumped shower in a nearby house.
* I built a tower for the header/feed tank in the loft. *When full the
surface of the cold water is about 6ft above the ceiling joists. *The
shower is fed from the hot tank with the cold feed coming from this
header/feed tank, thus equalling the pressures.

Incidentally, I have modern (ceramic disk) mixer taps in the kitchen.
The hot water flows through that tap just a well as it flows through any
of the other traditional taps in the property.

--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Way to go. Far more sensible.

On Mar 21, 9:13*pm, "Triffid" wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:10 pm, "Triffid" wrote:
Invisible Man wrote:
On 21/03/2011 19:52, zaax wrote:
Count de Monet wrote:

Just moved home.

Even though

the upstairs hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply to
the bath and sink is woefully slow flowing, this is not helped by
the use of modern (no washer) taps which seem to slow the flow
even more.

This is an increasing problem, bearing in mind that the majority of
the taps now for sale in the UK are made in countries that do not
have antiquated gravity-fed water systems and hence are designed to
operate with a minumum mains pressure.

The hot water flow from our modern kitchen tap was pitiful (even
though the header tank was two floors up in the loft). When we
switched to a combi system the flow improved dramatically and is now
fine.

--
Triff

Combi boilers are just for cheapness. They have no other advantage.

I don't accept that at all. First of all, when you are not using hot water,
the boiler is concentrating entirely on heating the radiators. The boiler
only heats water that you actually need - so if you don't need much hot
water on a particular day, you aren't wasting money heating up gallons of
water that you will never use.

Our traditional system if properly designed is far superior.

IYO! *I have absolutely no regrets about switching to a combi system.

--
Triff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Get some roof lagging and fill your hot water cylinder cupboard up
with it. You can maneouvre a sheet of ply behind the door frame to
hold it all in.
The combi boiler was designed as a cheap solution for new build
houses.
If you have a combi boiler, you can't have solar panels to heat your
hot water either.

On Mar 21, 9:57*pm, Count de Monet wrote:
This is not to increase the flow to a shower, I can't stand for long due
to a disability, I need to up the flow of the upstairs hot water so the
bath fills without a long wait so a single impeller pump in the 22mm hot
flow is all I need. I was hoping this was easier than a: taking out a
perfectly good HW cylinder to replace with a mains pressure one or b:
raising the cold tank in the loft. The pump solution seems, for me the
easier DIY solution. The noise of the pump will only be heard when
running and I can live with that.

Has anyone installed a single impeller pump and which manufacturer was
preferred?

You could get a mains pressure tank as an alternative, if the pump
doesn't suit.
However sometimes this can result in even slower fills.
As some one else remarked there can be problems with pumps sucking air
down the expansion pipe. There are several gadgets to help with this.
Have you considered just increasing the water temperature? Doesn't
fill any faster but you need less hot water (and obviously more cold).

On Mar 22, 7:17*am, harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 9:13*pm, "Triffid" wrote:



harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:10 pm, "Triffid" wrote:
Invisible Man wrote:
On 21/03/2011 19:52, zaax wrote:
Count de Monet wrote:

Just moved home.

Even though

the upstairs hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply to
the bath and sink is woefully slow flowing, this is not helped by
the use of modern (no washer) taps which seem to slow the flow
even more.

This is an increasing problem, bearing in mind that the majority of
the taps now for sale in the UK are made in countries that do not
have antiquated gravity-fed water systems and hence are designed to
operate with a minumum mains pressure.

The hot water flow from our modern kitchen tap was pitiful (even
though the header tank was two floors up in the loft). When we
switched to a combi system the flow improved dramatically and is now
fine.

--
Triff

Combi boilers are just for cheapness. They have no other advantage.

I don't accept that at all. First of all, when you are not using hot water,
the boiler is concentrating entirely on heating the radiators. The boiler
only heats water that you actually need - so if you don't need much hot
water on a particular day, you aren't wasting money heating up gallons of
water that you will never use.

Our traditional system if properly designed is far superior.

IYO! *I have absolutely no regrets about switching to a combi system.

--
Triff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You will when the repair bills start to come in.

Indeed....

harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 9:13 pm, "Triffid" wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:10 pm, "Triffid" wrote:
Invisible Man wrote:
On 21/03/2011 19:52, zaax wrote:
Count de Monet wrote:

Just moved home.

Even though

the upstairs hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply to
the bath and sink is woefully slow flowing, this is not helped
by the use of modern (no washer) taps which seem to slow the
flow even more.

This is an increasing problem, bearing in mind that the majority of
the taps now for sale in the UK are made in countries that do not
have antiquated gravity-fed water systems and hence are designed to
operate with a minumum mains pressure.

The hot water flow from our modern kitchen tap was pitiful (even
though the header tank was two floors up in the loft). When we
switched to a combi system the flow improved dramatically and is
now fine.

--
Triff

Combi boilers are just for cheapness. They have no other advantage.

I don't accept that at all. First of all, when you are not using hot
water, the boiler is concentrating entirely on heating the
radiators. The boiler only heats water that you actually need - so
if you don't need much hot water on a particular day, you aren't
wasting money heating up gallons of water that you will never use.

Our traditional system if properly designed is far superior.

IYO! I have absolutely no regrets about switching to a combi system.

--
Triff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You will when the repair bills start to come in.

Only time will tell - but I'm fairly confident that current combis are
dramatically more reliable and efficient than the early examples.

I had my WB combi serviced last week. I asked the engineer about
reliability. He claimed that the current crop are no more unreliable than
modern conventional boilers.

Of course, if a pump fails on a conventional system - then that is a pump
failure. If a pump fails in a combi - then that is a combi failure...

--
Triff

harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 9:12 pm, Old Codger wrote:
On 21/03/2011 19:41, Count de Monet wrote:

Incidentally, I have modern (ceramic disk) mixer taps in the kitchen.
The hot water flows through that tap just a well as it flows through
any of the other traditional taps in the property.

It's not a question of whether the tap has ceramic disks - but rather
whether the tap is designed to operate on low pressure gravity systems or
higher pressure mains-fed systems. There certainly *are* some modern ceramic
disk taps designed to work with low pressure gravity feeds (and the better
on-line retailers make this clear) - but the majority of modern taps are
designed for mains pressure and provide a poor flow with gravity fed
systems.

--
Triff

On Mar 22, 10:39*am, "Triffid" wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 9:13 pm, "Triffid" wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:10 pm, "Triffid" wrote:
Invisible Man wrote:
On 21/03/2011 19:52, zaax wrote:
Count de Monet wrote:

Just moved home.

Even though

the upstairs hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply to
the bath and sink is woefully slow flowing, this is not helped
by the use of modern (no washer) taps which seem to slow the
flow even more.

This is an increasing problem, bearing in mind that the majority of
the taps now for sale in the UK are made in countries that do not
have antiquated gravity-fed water systems and hence are designed to
operate with a minumum mains pressure.

The hot water flow from our modern kitchen tap was pitiful (even
though the header tank was two floors up in the loft). When we
switched to a combi system the flow improved dramatically and is
now fine.

--
Triff

Combi boilers are just for cheapness. They have no other advantage.

I don't accept that at all. First of all, when you are not using hot
water, the boiler is concentrating entirely on heating the
radiators. The boiler only heats water that you actually need - so
if you don't need much hot water on a particular day, you aren't
wasting money heating up gallons of water that you will never use.

Our traditional system if properly designed is far superior.

IYO! I have absolutely no regrets about switching to a combi system.

--
Triff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You will when the repair bills start to come in.

Only time will tell - but I'm fairly confident that current combis are
dramatically more reliable and efficient than the early examples.

I had my WB combi serviced last week. I asked the engineer about
reliability. He claimed that the current crop are no more unreliable than
modern conventional boilers.

Of course, if a pump fails on a conventional system - then that is a pump
failure. If a pump fails in a combi - then that is a combi failure...

--
Triff

It's not reliability that is the probelem, but performance. An average
pumped gravity system will easily outperform an average combi.

MBQ

Man at B&Q wrote:
On Mar 22, 10:39 am, "Triffid" wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 9:13 pm, "Triffid" wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:10 pm, "Triffid" wrote:
Invisible Man wrote:
On 21/03/2011 19:52, zaax wrote:
Count de Monet wrote:

Just moved home.

Even though

the upstairs hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply
to the bath and sink is woefully slow flowing, this is not
helped by the use of modern (no washer) taps which seem to
slow the flow even more.

This is an increasing problem, bearing in mind that the majority
of the taps now for sale in the UK are made in countries that do
not have antiquated gravity-fed water systems and hence are
designed to operate with a minumum mains pressure.

The hot water flow from our modern kitchen tap was pitiful (even
though the header tank was two floors up in the loft). When we
switched to a combi system the flow improved dramatically and is
now fine.

--
Triff

Combi boilers are just for cheapness. They have no other
advantage.

I don't accept that at all. First of all, when you are not using
hot water, the boiler is concentrating entirely on heating the
radiators. The boiler only heats water that you actually need - so
if you don't need much hot water on a particular day, you aren't
wasting money heating up gallons of water that you will never use.

Our traditional system if properly designed is far superior.

IYO! I have absolutely no regrets about switching to a combi
system.

--
Triff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You will when the repair bills start to come in.

Only time will tell - but I'm fairly confident that current combis
are dramatically more reliable and efficient than the early examples.

I had my WB combi serviced last week. I asked the engineer about
reliability. He claimed that the current crop are no more unreliable
than modern conventional boilers.

Of course, if a pump fails on a conventional system - then that is a
pump failure. If a pump fails in a combi - then that is a combi
failure...

--
Triff

It's not reliability that is the probelem, but performance. An average
pumped gravity system will easily outperform an average combi.

In what respects? Certainly not in economy. Certainly not in efficiency.
ISTM that the only way in which a conventional gravity system will
outperform a combi is in speed of filling a bath - and a decently powered
modern combi is nowhere near as slow in that regard as the early combis.

I'm sorry, but heating and storing gallons of hot water just 'in case' they
may be needed is not a sensible way of running a domestic system (IMHO!).

--
Triff

Triffid wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Mar 22, 10:39 am, "Triffid" wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 9:13 pm, "Triffid" wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:10 pm, "Triffid" wrote:
Invisible Man wrote:
On 21/03/2011 19:52, zaax wrote:
Count de Monet wrote:

Just moved home.

Even though

the upstairs hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply
to the bath and sink is woefully slow flowing, this is not
helped by the use of modern (no washer) taps which seem to
slow the flow even more.

This is an increasing problem, bearing in mind that the majority
of the taps now for sale in the UK are made in countries that do
not have antiquated gravity-fed water systems and hence are
designed to operate with a minumum mains pressure.

The hot water flow from our modern kitchen tap was pitiful (even
though the header tank was two floors up in the loft). When we
switched to a combi system the flow improved dramatically and is
now fine.

--
Triff

Combi boilers are just for cheapness. They have no other
advantage.

I don't accept that at all. First of all, when you are not using
hot water, the boiler is concentrating entirely on heating the
radiators. The boiler only heats water that you actually need - so
if you don't need much hot water on a particular day, you aren't
wasting money heating up gallons of water that you will never use.

Our traditional system if properly designed is far superior.

IYO! I have absolutely no regrets about switching to a combi
system.

--
Triff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You will when the repair bills start to come in.

Only time will tell - but I'm fairly confident that current combis
are dramatically more reliable and efficient than the early
examples. I had my WB combi serviced last week. I asked the engineer
about
reliability. He claimed that the current crop are no more unreliable
than modern conventional boilers.

Of course, if a pump fails on a conventional system - then that is a
pump failure. If a pump fails in a combi - then that is a combi
failure...

--
Triff

It's not reliability that is the probelem, but performance. An
average pumped gravity system will easily outperform an average
combi.

In what respects? Certainly not in economy. Certainly not in
efficiency. ISTM that the only way in which a conventional gravity
system will outperform a combi is in speed of filling a bath - and a
decently powered modern combi is nowhere near as slow in that regard
as the early combis.
I'm sorry, but heating and storing gallons of hot water just 'in
case' they may be needed is not a sensible way of running a domestic
system (IMHO!).

I could not agree more. There are further limitations with combis such as
someone turning a hot tap on in the kitchen whilst you are trying to have a
shower etc.

For a single person or a couple then a combi may be ideal.

And you have already realised that the extra time spent it takes filling the
bath can be spent doing other things and not timing the bath fill up. I
usually spend the time tormenting the cat. I have already spent more time
outside a hairdressers waiting for (ex) SWMBO than I shall ever do waiting
to fill every bath that I shall ever have in my lifetime.


--
Adam

On 22/03/2011 10:43, Triffid wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 9:12 pm, Old Codger wrote:
On 21/03/2011 19:41, Count de Monet wrote:

Incidentally, I have modern (ceramic disk) mixer taps in the kitchen.
The hot water flows through that tap just a well as it flows through
any of the other traditional taps in the property.

It's not a question of whether the tap has ceramic disks - but rather
whether the tap is designed to operate on low pressure gravity systems
or higher pressure mains-fed systems. There certainly *are* some modern
ceramic disk taps designed to work with low pressure gravity feeds (and
the better on-line retailers make this clear) - but the majority of
modern taps are designed for mains pressure and provide a poor flow with
gravity fed systems.

This (ceramic disk) mixer tap has cold at mains pressure on one side and
hot at low (header tank) pressure on the other. The hot output is
obviously slower than the cold but it is adequate and indistinguishable
from the output from all the other hot taps which are old fashioned
"washer" taps.

Do they make mixer taps with one low pressure side and one high pressure
side?

--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

On 22/03/2011 09:39, John Rumm wrote:
On 21/03/2011 21:12, Old Codger wrote:

I live in a bungalow and have installed a shower which has pressure
which is arguably better than that of a pumped shower in a nearby house.

Are you sure you are not confusing pressure with flow rate?

They are related. Without adequate pressure you will not get adequate flow

You need 30' of head for 1 bar of pressure.

I believe a more accurate figure is 34 feet.

Even the most feeble shower pump will add at least 1 bar to the available pressure (assuming its
working properly)

That is as maybe but I can assure you that the output of my shower is
very acceptable and is arguably at a higher pressure (greater flow) than
from a brand new pumped shower that I installed in a nearby house. I
have experienced other pumped showers, not installed by me, and none had
a noticeably higher output than my gravity fed shower.


--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

On 21/03/2011 20:33, harry wrote:

the upstairs hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply to
the bath and sink is woefully slow flowing, this is not helped by
the use of modern (no washer) taps which seem to slow the flow even
more.

This is an increasing problem, bearing in mind that the majority of the taps
now for sale in the UK are made in countries that do not have antiquated
gravity-fed water systems and hence are designed to operate with a minumum
mains pressure.

The hot water flow from our modern kitchen tap was pitiful (even though the
header tank was two floors up in the loft). When we switched to a combi
system the flow improved dramatically and is now fine.

--
Triff

Combi boilers are just for cheapness. They have no other advantage.
Our traditional system if properly designed is far superior.

It's perfectly possible to have a mains pressure HW system without a combi.

A Mains pressure cylinder will provide the benefits of mains pressure
HW, along with the hot flow rate advantages of stored HW.

It's what most of the rest of the world does!

I'd be hard pushed to consider anything else now, having switched to a
Megaflo system. ( Other than perhaps a small flat with no bath and no
space for a cylinder where a combi would be the better choice. )

--
Ron

John Rumm wrote:
On 22/03/2011 21:15, Old Codger wrote:
On 22/03/2011 10:43, Triffid wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 9:12 pm, Old Codger wrote:
On 21/03/2011 19:41, Count de Monet wrote:

Incidentally, I have modern (ceramic disk) mixer taps in the
kitchen. The hot water flows through that tap just a well as it
flows through any of the other traditional taps in the property.

It's not a question of whether the tap has ceramic disks - but
rather whether the tap is designed to operate on low pressure
gravity systems or higher pressure mains-fed systems. There
certainly *are* some modern ceramic disk taps designed to work with
low pressure gravity feeds (and the better on-line retailers make
this clear) - but the majority of modern taps are designed for
mains pressure and provide a poor flow with gravity fed systems.

This (ceramic disk) mixer tap has cold at mains pressure on one side
and hot at low (header tank) pressure on the other. The hot output is
obviously slower than the cold but it is adequate and
indistinguishable from the output from all the other hot taps which
are old fashioned "washer" taps.

Do they make mixer taps with one low pressure side and one high
pressure side?

Not generally. But a tap with large pathways adequate for low pressure
operation will also perform well on high pressure. (unlike the
reverse)

It often surprises me how small the 'hole' is through a typical in-line
isolating valve. You have a 15mm pipe going through to a few inches short of
the tap - and then this isolating valve with a hole not wide enough to poke
a pencil through. Surely this will have a flow restricting effect
(particularly on gravity fed systems)?

--
Triff

On 23/03/2011 07:30, Triffid wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 22/03/2011 21:15, Old Codger wrote:
On 22/03/2011 10:43, Triffid wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 9:12 pm, Old Codger wrote:
On 21/03/2011 19:41, Count de Monet wrote:

Incidentally, I have modern (ceramic disk) mixer taps in the
kitchen. The hot water flows through that tap just a well as it
flows through any of the other traditional taps in the property.

It's not a question of whether the tap has ceramic disks - but
rather whether the tap is designed to operate on low pressure
gravity systems or higher pressure mains-fed systems. There
certainly *are* some modern ceramic disk taps designed to work with
low pressure gravity feeds (and the better on-line retailers make
this clear) - but the majority of modern taps are designed for
mains pressure and provide a poor flow with gravity fed systems.

This (ceramic disk) mixer tap has cold at mains pressure on one side
and hot at low (header tank) pressure on the other. The hot output is
obviously slower than the cold but it is adequate and
indistinguishable from the output from all the other hot taps which
are old fashioned "washer" taps.

Do they make mixer taps with one low pressure side and one high
pressure side?

Not generally. But a tap with large pathways adequate for low pressure
operation will also perform well on high pressure. (unlike the
reverse)

It often surprises me how small the 'hole' is through a typical in-line
isolating valve. You have a 15mm pipe going through to a few inches
short of the tap - and then this isolating valve with a hole not wide
enough to poke a pencil through. Surely this will have a flow
restricting effect (particularly on gravity fed systems)?

Yes - and I wish that full bore valves had been used on our gravity fed
hot water system. And less tight bends than standard right angle connectors.

On Mar 22, 1:22*pm, "Triffid" wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Mar 22, 10:39 am, "Triffid" wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 9:13 pm, "Triffid" wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:10 pm, "Triffid" wrote:
Invisible Man wrote:
On 21/03/2011 19:52, zaax wrote:
Count de Monet wrote:

Just moved home.

Even though

the upstairs hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply
to the bath and sink is woefully slow flowing, this is not
helped by the use of modern (no washer) taps which seem to
slow the flow even more.

This is an increasing problem, bearing in mind that the majority
of the taps now for sale in the UK are made in countries that do
not have antiquated gravity-fed water systems and hence are
designed to operate with a minumum mains pressure.

The hot water flow from our modern kitchen tap was pitiful (even
though the header tank was two floors up in the loft). When we
switched to a combi system the flow improved dramatically and is
now fine.

--
Triff

Combi boilers are just for cheapness. They have no other
advantage.

I don't accept that at all. First of all, when you are not using
hot water, the boiler is concentrating entirely on heating the
radiators. The boiler only heats water that you actually need - so
if you don't need much hot water on a particular day, you aren't
wasting money heating up gallons of water that you will never use.

Our traditional system if properly designed is far superior.

IYO! I have absolutely no regrets about switching to a combi
system.

--
Triff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You will when the repair bills start to come in.

Only time will tell - but I'm fairly confident that current combis
are dramatically more reliable and efficient than the early examples.

I had my WB combi serviced last week. I asked the engineer about
reliability. He claimed that the current crop are no more unreliable
than modern conventional boilers.

Of course, if a pump fails on a conventional system - then that is a
pump failure. If a pump fails in a combi - then that is a combi
failure...

--
Triff

It's not reliability that is the probelem, but performance. An average
pumped gravity system will easily outperform an average combi.

In what respects? Certainly not in economy. Certainly not in efficiency.

Performance, i.e. deliveruing hot water.

ISTM that the only way in which a conventional gravity system will
outperform a combi is in speed of filling a bath - and a decently powered
modern combi is nowhere near as slow in that regard as the early combis.

An avergae pumped gravity shower will outperform an average combi fed
shower.

I'm sorry, but heating and storing gallons of hot water just 'in case' they
may be needed is not a sensible way of running a domestic system (IMHO!).

That rules out heatbanks then, which many seem to think are the mutts
nutts.

We heat ours just before it's needed rather than just in case. If an
emergency shower is required then it can always be taken cold.

It's horses for courses, but I will never fit a combi in a 4 bed
detached with 5 people living in it. It just would not work.

MBQ

On Mar 22, 7:04*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 22/03/2011 13:22, Triffid wrote:



Man at B&Q wrote:
On Mar 22, 10:39 am, "Triffid" wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 9:13 pm, "Triffid" wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:10 pm, "Triffid" wrote:
Invisible Man wrote:
On 21/03/2011 19:52, zaax wrote:
Count de Monet wrote:

Just moved home.

Even though

the upstairs hot water feed is plumbed in 22mm the hot supply
to the bath and sink is woefully slow flowing, this is not
helped by the use of modern (no washer) taps which seem to
slow the flow even more.

This is an increasing problem, bearing in mind that the majority
of the taps now for sale in the UK are made in countries that do
not have antiquated gravity-fed water systems and hence are
designed to operate with a minumum mains pressure.

The hot water flow from our modern kitchen tap was pitiful (even
though the header tank was two floors up in the loft). When we
switched to a combi system the flow improved dramatically and is
now fine.

--
Triff

Combi boilers are just for cheapness. They have no other
advantage.

I don't accept that at all. First of all, when you are not using
hot water, the boiler is concentrating entirely on heating the
radiators. The boiler only heats water that you actually need - so
if you don't need much hot water on a particular day, you aren't
wasting money heating up gallons of water that you will never use.

Our traditional system if properly designed is far superior.

IYO! I have absolutely no regrets about switching to a combi
system.

--
Triff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You will when the repair bills start to come in.

Only time will tell - but I'm fairly confident that current combis
are dramatically more reliable and efficient than the early examples.

I had my WB combi serviced last week. I asked the engineer about
reliability. He claimed that the current crop are no more unreliable
than modern conventional boilers.

Of course, if a pump fails on a conventional system - then that is a
pump failure. If a pump fails in a combi - then that is a combi
failure...

--
Triff

It's not reliability that is the probelem, but performance. An average
pumped gravity system will easily outperform an average combi.

In what respects? Certainly not in economy. Certainly not in efficiency..
ISTM that the only way in which a conventional gravity system will
outperform a combi is in speed of filling a bath - and a decently
powered modern combi is nowhere near as slow in that regard as the early
combis.

I'm sorry, but heating and storing gallons of hot water just 'in case'
they may be needed is not a sensible way of running a domestic system
(IMHO!).

The bleeding obvious point (to all except harry and dribble it seems),
is that you need to match the technology to the requirements and the
circumstances. All types of system can be excellent or crap depending on
those factors. There are times when a conventional storage system will
work really well and times it won't work at all, or very poorly. There
are times when combis are excellent, and times they are woeful. Plenty
of other technologies fit in there as well (heatbank, unvented etc) -
each has a place.

If you are going to claim that one technology is superior in every case
and every respect regardless, then you are just going to look like a
flat earth loon.


That's why I was careful to compare average examples. There will
always be outliers.

MBQ

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Man at B&Q"
saying something like:

It's horses for courses, but I will never fit a combi in a 4 bed
detached with 5 people living in it. It just would not work.

Drivel
Use two
/Drivel

Of course, if a pump fails on a conventional system - then that is a pump failure. If a pump fails in a combi - then that is a
combi failure...

--
Triff

The pump in my conventional Glow Worm is within the boiler casing.
When it has failed in the past I regarded it as a pump failure.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%