On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 14:06:17 -0000, "BartC" wrote:

The best use of Economy 7 would probably be to use it to charge up
batteries overnight, and then use the batteries to supply power as and
when required during the day. Unfortunately, while such an
installation is perfectly possible, the capital cost would be pretty
horrendous, and I doubt you would recoup the cost in saved electric
bills over the lifetime of the installation.

It would have to be a pretty big battery, to deliver several thousand watts
over 16 hours or so. Perhaps you can convert the garage into one giant
battery.

Not *that* big. A normal car battery will store around 1kWH. So the
number of car batteries needed will be the same as the number of units
of electricity you want to store per day. Obviously in practice you
would use much higher capacity cells - but it gives you an idea of the
sort of size involved. I bet you could fit quite a few car batteries
into a small garden shed.

It would probably be the most cost-effective to buy (or make) open
cells with removable plates (such as "fish tank" style batteries), and
to clean the tanks (cells) and reform the plates yourself as the cells
lose capacity. Maintainance will then be a very low cost. Otherwise
you will have the major capital outlay of buying a new set of
batteries every 4 or 5 years.

Off-peak electricity might be best used to pump water uphill, then use that
to drive a hydro-electric unit. But there are a few problems with domestic
use (such as having a big enough hill in the garden).

And the storage volume needed would be a tad more than for batteries!

--
Cynic

The fundamental problem with the UK was a lack of insulation until
very recently, and often high air changes per hour.

Gas central heating was the only way of getting sufficient kW into the
house at low unit cost, consider gas at 2.4p inc VAT vs Economy 7 at
5p & peak at 10p, it is as they say a "no-brainer". Economy 7 was an
atrocious kludge - totally inadequate kW, huge thermal losses from the
usual obsession of double glazing but no loft insulation, no wall
insulation, and high air changes per hour from coal era vents & open
flues. It translated into freezing by 7pm (or 2pm as often as not!).
Economy 7 was a lead balloon sold as a parachute, it had no chance of
warming the thermal mass of uninsulated building fabric.

Now insulate properly.

A 2009 build with a cheap build can have peak-rate panel heaters and
get away with it (working couple away most of the day, heat set to
background), a better build will have say economy-7 & peak-rate
Duoheats (better for stay-at-home retirees). Insulation really does
turn the tables; gas becomes expensive re install, maintenance, costly
system flushes & boiler replacement with unknown boiler life, idiot
installers, single point of failure.

A 1920 build on exposed coastal hill, mixed cavity & solid wall, with
celotex 25+25mm insulation throughout, 50+50mm in living area, 300mm
celotex in loft, 75mm underfloor. Before the insulation GCH did not
perform well, and finally froze in 2009 winter. Fully insulated
Economy 7 was installed and works superbly - commercial fan storage
heaters (not the domestic fan stuck on the bottom type) and standard
automatic type. Peak rate heaters (Calortec bought in France for £30
in 2008 summer) have not been used this winter.

A storage heater is a high thermal mass & continuous temperature body,
which is actually ideal if you insulate on the inside of a house
because it puts back the thermal mass lost - it provides a constant
temperature thermal mass.

Unfortunately, all is not roses with high insulation & electric
heating.
I still say a living area needs a radiant gas fire as a focal point
and direct radiative heating (and most preferably balanced flue).
I still say UK storage heaters are the cheap crap, USA & Germany get
proper commercial fan storage heaters branded AEG, Miele, etc. They
leak next to nothing, they only pump heat out by a fan which is
controlled by a wall mounted thermostat. Thus they are never too hot
or too cold, never run out when you get home, hold 40% of their heat
by midnight the next day so you never overcharge, no throwing windows
open because it is too hot. The downside is they are 2-2.5x as
expensive (3.4kWhr x7 is £800, 6.7-8.0kWhr x7 is £1300 - but they are
huge capacities). The upside is they avoid any single point of
failure, there is no maintenance cost re monthly D/D or boiler
replacement to save for, they last 25yrs etc, they are made in
Germany.

With very high levels of insulation GCH is an expensive white
elephant, electric heating can give better control. It is not however
easy to achieve such levels of insulation in the UK because it lagged
much of the world for decades, ridiculously. It could have required
25mm minimum polystyrene on all walls since 1970, instead it threw gas
at the solution - both for electricity generation (rather than nukes)
and for domestic heating.

harry wrote:
On Dec 7, 7:38 pm, "Ret." wrote:
harry wrote:
On Dec 7, 5:58 pm, "Ret." wrote:
ARWadsworth wrote:
Ret. wrote:
Maria wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:42 PM, MM wrote:
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption
(11.51p a unit in my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate
(5.06p), i.e. a lot cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter
and what could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no
night storage heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have
oil-filled electric radiators for a couple of rooms just to
take the chill off and they are very effective. I could get
more.

I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil
prices and trying to look for alternative methods of heating
for the future, at least until I can eventually move to a
house with a chimney and start burning wood.

Do *not* have economy 7 unless you have storage heaters - your
day rate is massive.
Why not get a chimney built? Be warned - even solid fuels are
almost as expensive these days.

I'm fortunate to be on mains gas. Two years ago I had my
conventional (30 years old!) gas boiler replaced with a modern
Worcester Bosch condensing combi. The old hot water tank has gone
(and the airing cupboard in the bathroom replaced with a walk-in
shower) as has all the tanks and pipework in the loft.

I have been astonished at how much less gas we are now using.
Despite having reduced my monthly direct debit gas payment, I
have still just received a 145.00 refund because a positive
balance had built up.

Only heating water when you actually turn on a hot tap - rather
than heating a tank-full which you may never use, makes all the
difference - as does using a more efficient boiler for the
central heating.

We are over the moon at the savings we have made in fuel costs
the past two years.

Be carefull Kev. You will have half of uk.d-i-y telling you that
combi boilers are crap and that you will never get financial
payback for your new boiler.

TBH, a few years ago and I was arguing that I wouldn't touch a
combi with a barge-pole. The people I knew who had one never ceased
complaining about the lukewarm water from the hot tap - and the
fact that it took two hours to fill a bath.

When I was considering replacing the boiler I was still of that
opinion - and planning on having a condensing non-combi put in. It
was only my next door neighbour (and a few posters on uk.diy)
telling me that new combis were a huge improvement on old ones,
that persuaded me to change my mind. We have no regrets
whatsoever. There is ample hot water and it feeds our shower
without the need for pumps. It does take a little longer to fill
the bath than it did before - but not significantly longer - and
so long as you are aware of the fact and start the bath running in
plenty of time - it's just not an issue.

The cost saving has been significant for us and, as our old boiler
was on its last legs anyway - the replacement cost was necessary.

There are other benefits as well. With our old boiler, first thing
in the morning when the timer kicked in, the heat produced would be
divided between heating the water in the tank and heating the water
in the radiators. With our combi, all the heat goes to the
radiators and so the house heats up a lot faster for when we get
out of bed. We also have piping hot water whenever we want it -
and it never runs out! If we have guests we can all have a shower
or bath one after the other without the water starting to run
cold. I'm a complete convert!

--
Kev- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The problem is they are a complex beast. Hence less reliable. And
the heat exchanger scale up .

They are a bit more complex than a standard boiler - but not a lot.
I can't see why the heat exchanger in a combi should scale up any
more than the heat exchanger in any boiler. As I live in a very soft
water area, scaling is not an issue for me anyway (I never have to
descale my kettle for example).

--
Kev- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The scale on electric elements tends to be shattered off from time
time with the expansion. This is unfortunately not so with plate heat
exchanger. I hear some have been designed with a "non-stick" finish.
Dunno how effective it is.
The reason they scale up more than a boiler is that it's new water
coming in. The boiler has the same stuff going round and round.

My WB boiler has a 10 year guarantee on the primary heat exchanger and 5
year anti-scale guarantee on the domestic hot water heat exchanger. Clearly
they have faith in their exchangers!

The exchangers on my boiler are cast aluminium.

--
Kev

On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 09:13:43 +0000, PeterC
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 20:57:40 +0000 (GMT), Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 09:03:05 -0800 (PST), js.b1 wrote:

Southern Region
Standard 12.78p
E7 15.54p day--5.43p night, all inc Vat

I guess they do not want E7 people.

N-Power Sign Online Dual Fuel V18
Electricity - Day...... 4.98p inc VAT (*1)
Electricity - Night ...10.67p inc VAT (*1)
Gas ....................... 2.42p inc VAT (*1)

Ebico rates are not the best but you only pay for what you use, there
are no standing charges in any form. Which is the context of this
sub-thread.

Yes, I was on a lower rate but the standing charge, on low useage, was a
significant burden. Tried another supplier - that went to front-end loading
and I was always within that band.
Ebico was a tad more per unit but cheaper overall.

I must look at my bill again. I am on E7 but have much less than 30% on
night rate. I stuck with it as I've a storage heater - kept it as standby if
the combi breaks down. Can a combi 'sense' when there's no back-up?

It would probably be cheaper in the long term to get rid of E7 and buy
a mobile gas heater and a bottle of gas.
http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalo..._Heater.ht ml

First year we were in this house the combi stopped working at
christmas. Had two firms out but they couldn't fix it. We ended up
buying a gas heater while I tracked down someone who knew the type of
combi we had. It was actually the company who sold us the gas heater
who gave us the name of an installer who regularly bought spares for
this type of combi boiler. Still took a week to get it fixed

We still have the heater and one and a half bottles of gas but haven't
had to use them for over ten years.

On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:10:46 +0000, AlanG wrote:

It would probably be cheaper in the long term to get rid of E7 and buy
a mobile gas heater and a bottle of gas.
http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalo..._Heater.ht ml

One such gas heater will heat an average living room perfectly
adequately. In a home that is unoccupied during working hours on week
days, a 15 Kg bottle will last about 2 weeks in midwinter (depending
on the room insulation).

A 15Kg re-fill costs a bit under £30 today. So you will be spending
about £60 per month to heat your living room.

--
Cynic

On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:09:11 +0000, Maria wrote:



Mine's brand new - I didn't have a choice about the make as it was
installed under the government's Warm Front scheme.
After it was installed, I looked up the boiler and it's about 5 from the
bottom on the list of reliability - there are numerous threads on forums
about the scheme, and it seems that the government bought a job lot of
cheap boilers to use on this scheme.
It might have been better to give us a voucher to use to choose (our let
our plumber choose) which boiler to install, and possibly would have
been cheaper also.

We qualify for a grant towards a boiler but it would have taken so
long to get it we had a new one fitted when the old one finally died.
The installer recommended one of these
http://www.tradingdepot.co.uk/DEF/pr...ANTAPLUS28C!!/

But said he could fit a cheaper one if we were not thinking of staying
in the house for more than a couple of years. He recommended the
Remaha or Vaillant for quality and reliability both at just under
£2000 fitted. I could have saved several hundred pounds by getting a
B&Q boiler instead then spent a couple of hundred a year keeping it in
running order

On 08/12/2010 in message
js.b1
wrote:

I still say UK storage heaters are the cheap crap, USA & Germany get
proper commercial fan storage heaters branded AEG, Miele, etc. They
leak next to nothing, they only pump heat out by a fan which is
controlled by a wall mounted thermostat.

Any chance of a supplier or model name/range name so I can have a look?

--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
All those who believe in psychokinesis raise my hand.

On Dec 8, 1:32*pm, Jules Richardson
wrote:
Ouch - 20 seems insane.

It is horrific and likely to be where we get to within about 10yrs.
We have a lot of wind farms to pay for remember... plus their backup
generating plant (!), plus if we DO move to electric cars and we DO
see 200dpb oil then we will need a significant upgrade to the
electrical distribution infrastructure as people move off oil etc.
True electric rechargeable cars would be a nightmare because the grid
is simply not designer for such - including the diversity assumed at
the consumer end re N houses to N 400A supply.

The uncertainty is gas, although LNG has removed a potential
catastrophe there we are still reliant on European & Russian
pipelines. We have too many gas fired power plants due to cheap north
sea gas, we needed nuclear a long time ago - CANDU systems are a world
away from Chernobyl.

For some "overseas comparison", ours averages out to around 6.75 cents/
kWH each month - so around 4.5p. I'm not yet awake enough this morning to
try and tweak that as a proportion of average income, which would
probably paint a fairer picture :-)

Very cheap hence the "electric baseboard heating" in both USA (&
Canada), plus countries have an installed "base" of houses with far
superior levels of insulation to the UK although somewhat negated by
colder temperatures and larger dwellings.

Cynic wrote:
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:10:46 +0000, AlanG wrote:

It would probably be cheaper in the long term to get rid of E7 and
buy a mobile gas heater and a bottle of gas.
http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalo..._Heater.ht ml

One such gas heater will heat an average living room perfectly
adequately. In a home that is unoccupied during working hours on week
days, a 15 Kg bottle will last about 2 weeks in midwinter (depending
on the room insulation).

A 15Kg re-fill costs a bit under £30 today. So you will be spending
about £60 per month to heat your living room.

My monthly gas direct debit payment, currently stands at £56.00 - and that
is for a 3-bed detached house, full central heating throughout, abundant hot
water and gas cooking. I'm also currently running a positive balance at that
payment and my supplier (Atlantic Gas and Electricity) as a loyalty bonus,
also refunds one month's gas and electricity payments every November (nice
for Christmas!).

As we are both retired, the central heating comes on at 6 am every morning
and stays on until 10 pm at night.

£60 per month to heat a single room, with additional costs for heating water
and cooking sounds horrendous!

--
Kev

On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:19:09 GMT, (Cynic) wrote:

On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:10:46 +0000, AlanG wrote:

It would probably be cheaper in the long term to get rid of E7 and buy
a mobile gas heater and a bottle of gas.
http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalo..._Heater.ht ml

One such gas heater will heat an average living room perfectly
adequately. In a home that is unoccupied during working hours on week
days, a 15 Kg bottle will last about 2 weeks in midwinter (depending
on the room insulation).

A 15Kg re-fill costs a bit under £30 today. So you will be spending
about £60 per month to heat your living room.

I recommended it as a standby in case of emergencies. The OP has a
storage heater and E7 he is using for that ATM

js.b1 wrote:
The fundamental problem with the UK was a lack of insulation until
very recently, and often high air changes per hour.

Gas central heating was the only way of getting sufficient kW into the
house at low unit cost, consider gas at 2.4p inc VAT vs Economy 7 at
5p & peak at 10p, it is as they say a "no-brainer". Economy 7 was an
atrocious kludge - totally inadequate kW, huge thermal losses from the
usual obsession of double glazing but no loft insulation, no wall
insulation, and high air changes per hour from coal era vents & open
flues. It translated into freezing by 7pm (or 2pm as often as not!).
Economy 7 was a lead balloon sold as a parachute, it had no chance of
warming the thermal mass of uninsulated building fabric.

Now insulate properly.

A 2009 build with a cheap build can have peak-rate panel heaters and
get away with it (working couple away most of the day, heat set to
background), a better build will have say economy-7 & peak-rate
Duoheats (better for stay-at-home retirees). Insulation really does
turn the tables; gas becomes expensive re install, maintenance, costly
system flushes & boiler replacement with unknown boiler life, idiot
installers, single point of failure.

A 1920 build on exposed coastal hill, mixed cavity & solid wall, with
celotex 25+25mm insulation throughout, 50+50mm in living area, 300mm
celotex in loft, 75mm underfloor. Before the insulation GCH did not
perform well, and finally froze in 2009 winter. Fully insulated
Economy 7 was installed and works superbly - commercial fan storage
heaters (not the domestic fan stuck on the bottom type) and standard
automatic type. Peak rate heaters (Calortec bought in France for £30
in 2008 summer) have not been used this winter.

A storage heater is a high thermal mass & continuous temperature body,
which is actually ideal if you insulate on the inside of a house
because it puts back the thermal mass lost - it provides a constant
temperature thermal mass.

Unfortunately, all is not roses with high insulation & electric
heating.
I still say a living area needs a radiant gas fire as a focal point
and direct radiative heating (and most preferably balanced flue).
I still say UK storage heaters are the cheap crap, USA & Germany get
proper commercial fan storage heaters branded AEG, Miele, etc. They
leak next to nothing, they only pump heat out by a fan which is
controlled by a wall mounted thermostat. Thus they are never too hot
or too cold, never run out when you get home, hold 40% of their heat
by midnight the next day so you never overcharge, no throwing windows
open because it is too hot. The downside is they are 2-2.5x as
expensive (3.4kWhr x7 is £800, 6.7-8.0kWhr x7 is £1300 - but they are
huge capacities). The upside is they avoid any single point of
failure, there is no maintenance cost re monthly D/D or boiler
replacement to save for, they last 25yrs etc, they are made in
Germany.

With very high levels of insulation GCH is an expensive white
elephant, electric heating can give better control. It is not however
easy to achieve such levels of insulation in the UK because it lagged
much of the world for decades, ridiculously. It could have required
25mm minimum polystyrene on all walls since 1970, instead it threw gas
at the solution - both for electricity generation (rather than nukes)
and for domestic heating.

I certainly agree with you in relation to insulation. After we had cavity
wall insulation put in some years ago we noticed a huge difference in our CH
bills. Once the radiators had brought the house up to temperature they would
shut down and stay off for a far longer period before needing to come on
again - simply because the heat they had created stayed within the house and
was not lost through the walls.

Anyone who has cavity walls and has not had them filled with insulation is
wasting money. It doesn't cost a lot to have it done - and the savings are
considerable.

--
Kev

On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 16:45:53 -0000, "Ret." wrote:

It would probably be cheaper in the long term to get rid of E7 and
buy a mobile gas heater and a bottle of gas.
http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalo..._Heater.ht ml

One such gas heater will heat an average living room perfectly
adequately. In a home that is unoccupied during working hours on week
days, a 15 Kg bottle will last about 2 weeks in midwinter (depending
on the room insulation).

A 15Kg re-fill costs a bit under £30 today. So you will be spending
about £60 per month to heat your living room.

My monthly gas direct debit payment, currently stands at £56.00 - and that
is for a 3-bed detached house, full central heating throughout, abundant hot
water and gas cooking. I'm also currently running a positive balance at that
payment and my supplier (Atlantic Gas and Electricity) as a loyalty bonus,
also refunds one month's gas and electricity payments every November (nice
for Christmas!).

As we are both retired, the central heating comes on at 6 am every morning
and stays on until 10 pm at night.

£60 per month to heat a single room, with additional costs for heating water
and cooking sounds horrendous!

Yes, that was exactly what I was illustrating.

A portable butane gas heater is however very handy for heating a room
very quickly. It may well therefore be cost effective for a working
family to use it for 20 minutes or so to heat a room in the morning
between getting out of bed and going to work instead of setting the CH
to start up an hour before rising and using energy to heat the entire
system.

--
Cynic

On 12/8/2010 5:25 PM, Huge wrote:
On 2010-12-08, wrote:
On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 16:45:53 -0000, wrote:

£60 per month to heat a single room, with additional costs for heating water
and cooking sounds horrendous!

Yes, that was exactly what I was illustrating.

A portable butane gas heater is however very handy for heating a room
very quickly.

It will also make the room run with condensation.



When our heating broke last winter, some kind soul donated a calor gas
heater, but we didn't think about opening a window because it's standing
in an open fireplace.
We spent many hours just dozing off and not knowing why, until we were
told. Oops.

On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 17:40:58 +0000, Maria wrote:

When our heating broke last winter, some kind soul donated a calor gas
heater, but we didn't think about opening a window because it's standing
in an open fireplace.
We spent many hours just dozing off and not knowing why, until we were
told. Oops.

All modern ones will automatically switch off if CO levels get too
high or O2 levels drop too low. (Using a very simply mechanism as
well).

--
Cynic

In article , Ret.
scribeth thus
Cynic wrote:
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:10:46 +0000, AlanG wrote:

It would probably be cheaper in the long term to get rid of E7 and
buy a mobile gas heater and a bottle of gas.
http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalo...lor_Gas_Cabine
t_Heater.html

One such gas heater will heat an average living room perfectly
adequately. In a home that is unoccupied during working hours on week
days, a 15 Kg bottle will last about 2 weeks in midwinter (depending
on the room insulation).

A 15Kg re-fill costs a bit under £30 today. So you will be spending
about £60 per month to heat your living room.

My monthly gas direct debit payment, currently stands at £56.00 - and that
is for a 3-bed detached house, full central heating throughout, abundant hot
water and gas cooking.


I'm also currently running a positive balance at that
payment and my supplier (Atlantic Gas and Electricity) as a loyalty bonus,
also refunds one month's gas and electricity payments every November (nice
for Christmas!).

We've just got shot of them and gone for E-ON around 450 quid a year
cheaper gas and leccy..
--
Tony Sayer

On 12/8/2010 3:21 PM, AlanG wrote:
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:09:11 +0000, wrote:



Mine's brand new - I didn't have a choice about the make as it was
installed under the government's Warm Front scheme.
After it was installed, I looked up the boiler and it's about 5 from the
bottom on the list of reliability - there are numerous threads on forums
about the scheme, and it seems that the government bought a job lot of
cheap boilers to use on this scheme.
It might have been better to give us a voucher to use to choose (our let
our plumber choose) which boiler to install, and possibly would have
been cheaper also.

We qualify for a grant towards a boiler but it would have taken so
long to get it we had a new one fitted when the old one finally died.

We were told in April we could have it, it packed up completely in
October, and we got the new one in February, about a week before the
cold snap ended. Natch.

The installer recommended one of these
http://www.tradingdepot.co.uk/DEF/pr...ANTAPLUS28C!!/

But said he could fit a cheaper one if we were not thinking of staying
in the house for more than a couple of years. He recommended the
Remaha or Vaillant for quality and reliability both at just under
£2000 fitted. I could have saved several hundred pounds by getting a
B&Q boiler instead then spent a couple of hundred a year keeping it in
running order

Valliant's a good make I think, but then I thought Potterton was until
it spat out a circuit board once a year, always about two weeks outside
the guarantee period.

Maybe you had a narrow escape - this is what my new boiler looks like -

(no it's not a dodgy photo - the pipes are not parallel)

http://www.tajarts.co.uk/boiler.jpg

I really sound ungrateful but if I want to rent the house out in the
future I'm going to have to do something about it.

On Dec 8, 3:23*pm, "Jeff Gaines" wrote:
Any chance of a supplier or model name/range name so I can have a look?

Commercial storage heaters, rebadged AEG, Miele, Electrolux, many
others
- Creda TSF Turbo
- Dimplex VFM

They are the top units actually made in Germany.

There are some oddball units out there
- Elnur 2-3-4-5 kW - most people only carry the 2-4kW (*1)
- Stiebel Eltron 3-4-5-6-7-8 kW - the 8kW is very long :-)

(*1) Elnur have no peak rate boost-element (eg, 700W 1000W etc). Also
check what the real capacity is because I think some quote an 8hr
total charge (Manchester?) when the more common E7 is of course 7hr.
They are a bit uglier than the Dimplex & Creda type, but cheaper.


Whilst a dumb "box of bricks" 24kWhr will cost £300-350, the "fan gets
heat out" 32kWhr will cost £700-850. So the UK tends to go for the
former, whereas Germany & USA go for the latter with thermostat on-
demand heating like GCH. Shops tend to fit the commercial fan units
because they work well, no plumbing risk, any charge not used offsets
the charge period the next night, temperature can be carefully
controlled. However if the shop is selling soft drinks & ice-cream the
freezers they get usually means they drop the additional heaters and
they can be had for £50-100 only a few months old (how I got one
cheap).

Interestingly the single 1984 heater had a brutally fierce heat in the
morning & stone cold by 7-11pm, whereas the twin 2009 heaters have a
moderate heat all day long through to 11pm. Indeed I only noticed two
nights ago when checking that I could open the room thermostat from
min to max at 11pm and pour a substantial amount of heat out. Sizing
really does matter, and I think the heater insulation may have
improved. That puzzles me somewhat because the 1984 heater had white
silica which should be better than the 2009 heater rockwool. I think
the 2009 heater has thicker insulation AND is noticeably taller (more
correctly it sits closer to the floor) than the 1984 heater. If the
front panel insulation slab (silica) is not fitted correctly then the
heat loss out the front will be substantial and the heater will not
perform very well. Extremely easy to do - the UK "box of bricks" are
not particularly well designed in that regard, it's a bit heath
robinson.

"Maria" wrote in message
...

Maybe you had a narrow escape - this is what my new boiler looks like -

http://www.tajarts.co.uk/boiler.jpg

Those earthing cables could have been put somewhere else, rather than right
next to that switch. And maybe that filling loop doesn't need to be right on
that corner...

Some boilers I think have the option of a pipe being routed behind the
boiler (with an entry or exit at the top).

I really sound ungrateful but if I want to rent the house out in the
future I'm going to have to do something about it.

I don't think renters care about that, it's not their boiler; it just needs
to work.

--
Bartc

On 12/8/2010 6:12 PM, BartC wrote:
"Maria" wrote in message
...

Maybe you had a narrow escape - this is what my new boiler looks like -

http://www.tajarts.co.uk/boiler.jpg

Those earthing cables could have been put somewhere else, rather than
right next to that switch. And maybe that filling loop doesn't need to
be right on that corner...

There's a big brassy cylinder thing sticking out at the bottom also -
some kind of trap. This one has more bits and pieces on it than my
previous two did.


Some boilers I think have the option of a pipe being routed behind the
boiler (with an entry or exit at the top).

This one has a big space behind for all the pipes AIUI, but WF only do
basic installations. Making a special effort to hide them is not 'basic'
apparently, though I'd have thought it would use less copper pipe!

I really sound ungrateful but if I want to rent the house out in the
future I'm going to have to do something about it.

I don't think renters care about that, it's not their boiler; it just
needs to work.


I can only tell you that the hideousness of it does not come across that
well in the photo - I was going to decorate the kitchen but I can't be
bothered now.

On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 18:12:54 -0000, "BartC" wrote:

http://www.tajarts.co.uk/boiler.jpg

Those earthing cables could have been put somewhere else, rather than right
next to that switch. And maybe that filling loop doesn't need to be right on
that corner...

Some boilers I think have the option of a pipe being routed behind the
boiler (with an entry or exit at the top).

I really sound ungrateful but if I want to rent the house out in the
future I'm going to have to do something about it.

I don't think renters care about that, it's not their boiler; it just needs
to work.

Any long-term renter would probably care. What I would do is simply
put a few of bits of wood around the whole thing to make a
corner-cupboard for the boiler and pipes. Less than £100 and a
weekend of work for any amateur DIY-er.

--
Cynic

On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 17:57:37 +0000, Maria wrote:

On 12/8/2010 3:21 PM, AlanG wrote:
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:09:11 +0000, wrote:



Mine's brand new - I didn't have a choice about the make as it was
installed under the government's Warm Front scheme.
After it was installed, I looked up the boiler and it's about 5 from the
bottom on the list of reliability - there are numerous threads on forums
about the scheme, and it seems that the government bought a job lot of
cheap boilers to use on this scheme.
It might have been better to give us a voucher to use to choose (our let
our plumber choose) which boiler to install, and possibly would have
been cheaper also.

We qualify for a grant towards a boiler but it would have taken so
long to get it we had a new one fitted when the old one finally died.

We were told in April we could have it, it packed up completely in
October, and we got the new one in February, about a week before the
cold snap ended. Natch.

The installer recommended one of these
http://www.tradingdepot.co.uk/DEF/pr...ANTAPLUS28C!!/

But said he could fit a cheaper one if we were not thinking of staying
in the house for more than a couple of years. He recommended the
Remaha or Vaillant for quality and reliability both at just under
£2000 fitted. I could have saved several hundred pounds by getting a
B&Q boiler instead then spent a couple of hundred a year keeping it in
running order

Valliant's a good make I think, but then I thought Potterton was until
it spat out a circuit board once a year, always about two weeks outside
the guarantee period.

Maybe you had a narrow escape - this is what my new boiler looks like -

(no it's not a dodgy photo - the pipes are not parallel)

http://www.tajarts.co.uk/boiler.jpg

I really sound ungrateful but if I want to rent the house out in the
future I'm going to have to do something about it.

That is a complete and total utter bodge. If that lot cost over 2000
then someone somewhere is wearing a mask and carrying a bag marked
swag

On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 18:21:12 +0000, Maria wrote:

On 12/8/2010 6:12 PM, BartC wrote:
"Maria" wrote in message
...

Maybe you had a narrow escape - this is what my new boiler looks like -

http://www.tajarts.co.uk/boiler.jpg

Those earthing cables could have been put somewhere else, rather than
right next to that switch. And maybe that filling loop doesn't need to
be right on that corner...

There's a big brassy cylinder thing sticking out at the bottom also -
some kind of trap. This one has more bits and pieces on it than my
previous two did.


Some boilers I think have the option of a pipe being routed behind the
boiler (with an entry or exit at the top).

This one has a big space behind for all the pipes AIUI, but WF only do
basic installations. Making a special effort to hide them is not 'basic'
apparently, though I'd have thought it would use less copper pipe!

I really sound ungrateful but if I want to rent the house out in the
future I'm going to have to do something about it.

I don't think renters care about that, it's not their boiler; it just
needs to work.


I can only tell you that the hideousness of it does not come across that
well in the photo - I was going to decorate the kitchen but I can't be
bothered now.

You could box the whole lot in but if you do you need to make sure the
boiler can operate without room ventilation and put full length doors
on the front for access to boiler and pipes

harry wrote:
On Dec 8, 2:50 pm, harry wrote:
On Dec 8, 11:45 am, "Ret." wrote:





Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 08/12/2010 in message
Ret. wrote:

I once lived in a house that had storage radiators. They were
utterly utterly useless - particularly in Spring and Autumn when
temperatures tend to fluctuate considerably.

They heat up overnight - and so if the next day is mild, you are
having to throw the windows open to release some of the heat
because the house is so hot. They tend to have lost most of their
heat by the middle of the afternoon - and so you then have to
rely on additional (usually expensive) heat sources to keep the
house warm for the rest of the afternoon and evening. For a
couple that both work and are out of the house for most of the
day - they are simply a nonsense because the house is nice and
warm while they are out - and not warm enough when they get back
home.

I'd be very interested to have some suggestions on alternatives.
I'm in a reasonably well insulated mid-terrace house with E7 and
just 2 storage heaters - 1 in the hall and 1 in the lounge. I'm
retired so here all the time, no statistics yet as I moved in a
month ago today. Electric is the only option, no gas and nowhere
for an oil tank.
The 2 bedrooms have electric panel heaters, I turn the one in my
bedroom on an hour before bedtime and turn the electric blanket on
at the same time. I turn the heater off when I go to bed and just
get dressed PDQ each morning.
Would I be better off with non storage heaters on a normal tariff
and just turn them on when needed?

I think you need to speak to a heating engineer on what are your
best options. It is possible, of course, to run a gas system off
propane tanks - but I have no idea of the cost of propane
whole-house heating.

--
Kev- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Propane is the most expensive heating option you can have.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The one thing you can say aout storage heaters is that they are
relatively cheap to install. And you can take them with you when you
move. Should you want to!

Relatively cheap to install apart from the electric supply to each heater,
the new CU and the £200 to buy each heater!
--
Adam

Maria, box it in (all of it).
Alternatively cut down a cupboard and stick a door on the front,
making the cupboard lift-off (you can buy brackets which lift off).
The instructions will say what ventilation it requires, as in a bottom
vent & top vent of certain area etc.

Remember to fix the hole in the ceiling, just in case you miss it (!).

I would have moved the SFCU on the RHS further away from the pipework,
but that is just me. Others cable tie the supply cable to the lead gas
pipe, making it festoon on its cramps, but the cable ties are at the
correct spacing for the cable diameter...

On 12/8/2010 6:54 PM, AlanG wrote:
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 17:57:37 +0000, wrote:

On 12/8/2010 3:21 PM, AlanG wrote:
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:09:11 +0000, wrote:



Mine's brand new - I didn't have a choice about the make as it was
installed under the government's Warm Front scheme.
After it was installed, I looked up the boiler and it's about 5 from the
bottom on the list of reliability - there are numerous threads on forums
about the scheme, and it seems that the government bought a job lot of
cheap boilers to use on this scheme.
It might have been better to give us a voucher to use to choose (our let
our plumber choose) which boiler to install, and possibly would have
been cheaper also.

We qualify for a grant towards a boiler but it would have taken so
long to get it we had a new one fitted when the old one finally died.

We were told in April we could have it, it packed up completely in
October, and we got the new one in February, about a week before the
cold snap ended. Natch.

The installer recommended one of these
http://www.tradingdepot.co.uk/DEF/pr...ANTAPLUS28C!!/

But said he could fit a cheaper one if we were not thinking of staying
in the house for more than a couple of years. He recommended the
Remaha or Vaillant for quality and reliability both at just under
£2000 fitted. I could have saved several hundred pounds by getting a
B&Q boiler instead then spent a couple of hundred a year keeping it in
running order

Valliant's a good make I think, but then I thought Potterton was until
it spat out a circuit board once a year, always about two weeks outside
the guarantee period.

Maybe you had a narrow escape - this is what my new boiler looks like -

(no it's not a dodgy photo - the pipes are not parallel)

http://www.tajarts.co.uk/boiler.jpg

I really sound ungrateful but if I want to rent the house out in the
future I'm going to have to do something about it.

That is a complete and total utter bodge. If that lot cost over 2000
then someone somewhere is wearing a mask and carrying a bag marked
swag

2.5k according to the invoice thing I had to sign.
The bloke was really ill with some terminal disease and had two thick
sons doing the donkey work. It put me in a bit of a quandary, and I
didn't feel that I should complain. I hoped that the WF inspector might
say something, but he seemed to think it was acceptable - it works and I
suppose that's satisfactory.

On 12/8/2010 7:00 PM, AlanG wrote:
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 18:21:12 +0000, wrote:

On 12/8/2010 6:12 PM, BartC wrote:
wrote in message
...

Maybe you had a narrow escape - this is what my new boiler looks like -

http://www.tajarts.co.uk/boiler.jpg

Those earthing cables could have been put somewhere else, rather than
right next to that switch. And maybe that filling loop doesn't need to
be right on that corner...

There's a big brassy cylinder thing sticking out at the bottom also -
some kind of trap. This one has more bits and pieces on it than my
previous two did.


Some boilers I think have the option of a pipe being routed behind the
boiler (with an entry or exit at the top).

This one has a big space behind for all the pipes AIUI, but WF only do
basic installations. Making a special effort to hide them is not 'basic'
apparently, though I'd have thought it would use less copper pipe!

I really sound ungrateful but if I want to rent the house out in the
future I'm going to have to do something about it.

I don't think renters care about that, it's not their boiler; it just
needs to work.


I can only tell you that the hideousness of it does not come across that
well in the photo - I was going to decorate the kitchen but I can't be
bothered now.

You could box the whole lot in but if you do you need to make sure the
boiler can operate without room ventilation and put full length doors
on the front for access to boiler and pipes

The box will have to be massive and stick out into the walking space
(that's the bathroom door at the end), due to the location of the mains
power point which is almost behind the pipework. At the side, the remote
control switch thingy is up close to the boiler so it would have to come
this side of that. The ceiling is high. Apart from saving up for a few
years to get it moved into what was the airing cupboard (behind wall on
left), I can't really think of anything else I can do to hide it without
putting enormous pieces of wood in there.

On 12/8/2010 6:39 PM, Cynic wrote:
On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 18:12:54 -0000, wrote:

http://www.tajarts.co.uk/boiler.jpg

Those earthing cables could have been put somewhere else, rather than right
next to that switch. And maybe that filling loop doesn't need to be right on
that corner...

Some boilers I think have the option of a pipe being routed behind the
boiler (with an entry or exit at the top).

I really sound ungrateful but if I want to rent the house out in the
future I'm going to have to do something about it.

I don't think renters care about that, it's not their boiler; it just needs
to work.

Any long-term renter would probably care. What I would do is simply
put a few of bits of wood around the whole thing to make a
corner-cupboard for the boiler and pipes. Less than £100 and a
weekend of work for any amateur DIY-er.


Please see my reply to Alan G

On 12/8/2010 7:11 PM, js.b1 wrote:
Maria, box it in (all of it).
Alternatively cut down a cupboard and stick a door on the front,
making the cupboard lift-off (you can buy brackets which lift off).
The instructions will say what ventilation it requires, as in a bottom
vent& top vent of certain area etc.

Sounds like a good idea, as long as it will be wide enough. I have the
manuals which have the clearances on it, but I might have to move some
electrical points (mains switch and RC thermostat thingy)

Remember to fix the hole in the ceiling, just in case you miss it (!).

I would have moved the SFCU on the RHS further away from the pipework,
but that is just me.

SFCU?

Unfortunately they wouldn't move anything, even for cash.
The overseeing electrician was ok with it, though having said that, I
paid him 25 to remove a ceiling fan and replace it with a cheap pendant
and it hasn't worked since!

Others cable tie the supply cable to the lead gas
pipe, making it festoon on its cramps, but the cable ties are at the
correct spacing for the cable diameter...

On 12/8/2010 5:51 PM, Cynic wrote:
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 17:40:58 +0000, wrote:

When our heating broke last winter, some kind soul donated a calor gas
heater, but we didn't think about opening a window because it's standing
in an open fireplace.
We spent many hours just dozing off and not knowing why, until we were
told. Oops.

All modern ones will automatically switch off if CO levels get too
high or O2 levels drop too low. (Using a very simply mechanism as
well).


I've just checked the scrap of paper that came with it (allegedly the
'manual', but I can't see anything about that. I'll have to double check.

On 08/12/2010 in message
js.b1
wrote:

Commercial storage heaters, rebadged AEG, Miele, Electrolux, many
others
- Creda TSF Turbo
- Dimplex VFM

They are the top units actually made in Germany.

Many thanks :-)

I have made a note and will think about those as part of the overall scheme.

--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
I can please only one person per day. Today is not your day.
Tomorrow, isn't looking good either.

On Dec 8, 7:21*pm, Maria wrote:
The box will have to be massive and stick out into the walking space
(that's the bathroom door at the end), due to the location of the mains
power point which is almost behind the pipework.

Get the fused spur moved.

Measure what size is needed to just clear the pipes and the front.

Look around for a kitchen cupboard to fit, get it cut down on a table
saw. If you can not find something suitable simply fix battens to the
wall as necessary, then go to B&Q and get them to cut down MDF on
their "wall saw" (gives a superb cut, better than the admittedly old
20k american table saw at the local hardware saw). Then paint it.

You can make a door out of MDF and hinge it. To make the entire
cupboard easily removable search on Ebay for "Rigifix". These require
a 12mm hole in the wall, you push in a nylon plug, then screw in a
threaded tube with an allen key, into that you can screw in a standard
M6 or M8 machine screw. That makes a VERY easy remove-refit system
which even the most clueless fool can manage. You just need to draw
out the dimensions and B&Q will cut to size for free.

Moving the boiler, well I would only do that at failure - otherwise it
is a lot of money to achieve little.

tony sayer wrote:
In article , Ret.
scribeth thus
Cynic wrote:
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:10:46 +0000, AlanG
wrote:

It would probably be cheaper in the long term to get rid of E7 and
buy a mobile gas heater and a bottle of gas.
http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalo...lor_Gas_Cabine
t_Heater.html

One such gas heater will heat an average living room perfectly
adequately. In a home that is unoccupied during working hours on
week days, a 15 Kg bottle will last about 2 weeks in midwinter
(depending on the room insulation).

A 15Kg re-fill costs a bit under £30 today. So you will be spending
about £60 per month to heat your living room.

My monthly gas direct debit payment, currently stands at £56.00 -
and that is for a 3-bed detached house, full central heating
throughout, abundant hot water and gas cooking.


I'm also currently running a positive balance at that
payment and my supplier (Atlantic Gas and Electricity) as a loyalty
bonus, also refunds one month's gas and electricity payments every
November (nice for Christmas!).

We've just got shot of them and gone for E-ON around 450 quid a year
cheaper gas and leccy..

I'll take a look! The problem of course is that a company that is cheaper
this month - may well be more expensive next month!

--
Kev

On 08/12/2010 16:45, Ret. wrote:
Cynic wrote:
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:10:46 +0000, AlanG wrote:

It would probably be cheaper in the long term to get rid of E7 and
buy a mobile gas heater and a bottle of gas.
http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalo..._Heater.ht ml


One such gas heater will heat an average living room perfectly
adequately. In a home that is unoccupied during working hours on week
days, a 15 Kg bottle will last about 2 weeks in midwinter (depending
on the room insulation).

A 15Kg re-fill costs a bit under £30 today. So you will be spending
about £60 per month to heat your living room.

My monthly gas direct debit payment, currently stands at £56.00 - and
that is for a 3-bed detached house, full central heating throughout,
abundant hot water and gas cooking. I'm also currently running a
positive balance at that payment and my supplier (Atlantic Gas and
Electricity) as a loyalty bonus, also refunds one month's gas and
electricity payments every November (nice for Christmas!).

As we are both retired, the central heating comes on at 6 am every
morning and stays on until 10 pm at night.

£60 per month to heat a single room, with additional costs for heating
water and cooking sounds horrendous!

Quite a lot less than the amount required to get a gas main to a house
though, and it would be winter only - yours is averaged over the year.
Cooking takes bugger all too - we get through a couple of 13kg bottles a
year.

(If we had mains gas, we'd use it. S'pose I could sneak over to the very
large gas main they installed over the road a couple of years ago -
reckon they'd notice? :-) )

Ret. wrote:
js.b1 wrote:
The fundamental problem with the UK was a lack of insulation until
very recently, and often high air changes per hour.

Gas central heating was the only way of getting sufficient kW into
the house at low unit cost, consider gas at 2.4p inc VAT vs Economy
7 at 5p & peak at 10p, it is as they say a "no-brainer". Economy 7
was an atrocious kludge - totally inadequate kW, huge thermal losses
from the usual obsession of double glazing but no loft insulation,
no wall insulation, and high air changes per hour from coal era
vents & open flues. It translated into freezing by 7pm (or 2pm as
often as not!). Economy 7 was a lead balloon sold as a parachute, it
had no chance of warming the thermal mass of uninsulated building
fabric. Now insulate properly.

A 2009 build with a cheap build can have peak-rate panel heaters and
get away with it (working couple away most of the day, heat set to
background), a better build will have say economy-7 & peak-rate
Duoheats (better for stay-at-home retirees). Insulation really does
turn the tables; gas becomes expensive re install, maintenance,
costly system flushes & boiler replacement with unknown boiler life,
idiot installers, single point of failure.

A 1920 build on exposed coastal hill, mixed cavity & solid wall, with
celotex 25+25mm insulation throughout, 50+50mm in living area, 300mm
celotex in loft, 75mm underfloor. Before the insulation GCH did not
perform well, and finally froze in 2009 winter. Fully insulated
Economy 7 was installed and works superbly - commercial fan storage
heaters (not the domestic fan stuck on the bottom type) and standard
automatic type. Peak rate heaters (Calortec bought in France for £30
in 2008 summer) have not been used this winter.

A storage heater is a high thermal mass & continuous temperature
body, which is actually ideal if you insulate on the inside of a
house because it puts back the thermal mass lost - it provides a
constant temperature thermal mass.

Unfortunately, all is not roses with high insulation & electric
heating.
I still say a living area needs a radiant gas fire as a focal point
and direct radiative heating (and most preferably balanced flue).
I still say UK storage heaters are the cheap crap, USA & Germany get
proper commercial fan storage heaters branded AEG, Miele, etc. They
leak next to nothing, they only pump heat out by a fan which is
controlled by a wall mounted thermostat. Thus they are never too hot
or too cold, never run out when you get home, hold 40% of their heat
by midnight the next day so you never overcharge, no throwing windows
open because it is too hot. The downside is they are 2-2.5x as
expensive (3.4kWhr x7 is £800, 6.7-8.0kWhr x7 is £1300 - but they are
huge capacities). The upside is they avoid any single point of
failure, there is no maintenance cost re monthly D/D or boiler
replacement to save for, they last 25yrs etc, they are made in
Germany.

With very high levels of insulation GCH is an expensive white
elephant, electric heating can give better control. It is not however
easy to achieve such levels of insulation in the UK because it lagged
much of the world for decades, ridiculously. It could have required
25mm minimum polystyrene on all walls since 1970, instead it threw
gas at the solution - both for electricity generation (rather than
nukes) and for domestic heating.

I certainly agree with you in relation to insulation. After we had
cavity wall insulation put in some years ago we noticed a huge
difference in our CH bills. Once the radiators had brought the house
up to temperature they would shut down and stay off for a far longer
period before needing to come on again - simply because the heat they
had created stayed within the house and was not lost through the
walls.
Anyone who has cavity walls and has not had them filled with
insulation is wasting money. It doesn't cost a lot to have it done -
and the savings are considerable.

Payback times for cavity wall insulation vary depending on many things,
however I have a non standard construction house that has a gable end facing
the Pennine hills. Checking back on my gas bills (not easy to get an exact
comparison due to other influences) I suspect that I probably halved my
heating bills by having cavity wall insulation fitted. The general guide
used to be between 3 to 5 years for payback, however with the rising cost of
fuel it is probably nearer to two years now.

--
Adam

On Dec 8, 5:51*pm, (Cynic) wrote:
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 17:40:58 +0000, Maria wrote:
When our heating broke last winter, some kind soul donated a calor gas
heater, but we didn't think about opening a window because it's standing
in an open fireplace.
We spent many hours just dozing off and not knowing why, until we were
told. Oops.

All modern ones will automatically switch off if CO levels get too
high or O2 levels drop too low. *(Using a very simply mechanism as
well).

--
Cynic

I don't know of any simple mechanism for detecting O2 or CO.

On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 23:07:55 -0800 (PST), harry wrote:

All modern ones will automatically switch off if CO levels get too
high or O2 levels drop too low. *(Using a very simply mechanism as
well).

I don't know of any simple mechanism for detecting O2 or CO.

The flame goes out, flame failure device switches off the gas.
Simples. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 09:40:27 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

MM wrote:

I was thinking more of storing the cheap
power (batteries) for release throughout the day, e.g. for running the
computer

Sorry, I meant to add, the easiest way to get a few hours battery driven
use of a PC during the day would be a laptop charged overnight, but I
wouldn't get E7 just to allow that.

After Christmas, when finances hopefully once again permit, I'm going
to take another look at building a Mini ITX system. I've built several
standard desktops over the years, so a Mini ITX should be fairly
straightforward. These use a LOT less power.

MM

On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:10:46 +0000, AlanG wrote:

I must look at my bill again. I am on E7 but have much less than 30% on
night rate. I stuck with it as I've a storage heater - kept it as standby if
the combi breaks down. Can a combi 'sense' when there's no back-up?

It would probably be cheaper in the long term to get rid of E7 and buy
a mobile gas heater and a bottle of gas.
http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalo..._Heater.ht ml

Thanks for the link, Alan. It does look like a good option.

First year we were in this house the combi stopped working at
christmas. Had two firms out but they couldn't fix it. We ended up
buying a gas heater while I tracked down someone who knew the type of
combi we had. It was actually the company who sold us the gas heater
who gave us the name of an installer who regularly bought spares for
this type of combi boiler. Still took a week to get it fixed

And a storage heater isn't a rapid-response back-up, so gas would be better
and that one would do the house on high setting (upstairs is around 13.5 -
14.5ºC, so not a lot required).

We still have the heater and one and a half bottles of gas but haven't
had to use them for over ten years.

See what I mean about back-up? :-)
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 19:28:15 +0000, Maria wrote:

All modern ones will automatically switch off if CO levels get too
high or O2 levels drop too low. (Using a very simply mechanism as
well).

I've just checked the scrap of paper that came with it (allegedly the
'manual', but I can't see anything about that. I'll have to double check.

Strangely it is not advertised in the manual. I suspect because it is
not a foolproof safety feature and so nothing that anyone should stake
their life upon.

Take a look under the faultfinding section, where the symptom is that
the fire keeps going out. You will probably find that one of the
suggestions is to ensure that the room is well ventilated.

The principle of operation is that most changes in the composition of
air will cause a change in the size and/or shape of the pilot light.
The sensor is adjusted so that any such change will cut off the gas
supply.

--
Cynic

On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 23:07:55 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

All modern ones will automatically switch off if CO levels get too
high or O2 levels drop too low. =A0(Using a very simply mechanism as
well).

I don't know of any simple mechanism for detecting O2 or CO.

See my previous post. It is by no means a 100% foolproof system but
will work in the majority of cases where a room is inadequately
ventilated.

--
Cynic