Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter and what
could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night storage
heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled electric
radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off and they
are very effective. I could get more.

I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil prices and
trying to look for alternative methods of heating for the future, at
least until I can eventually move to a house with a chimney and start
burning wood.

MM

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

"MM" wrote in message
...
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter

Nothing just to change the meter.

and what
could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night storage
heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled electric
radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off and they
are very effective. I could get more.

E7 is only of any use to you if you change at least 30% of your electricity
usage to overnight.

Using it for a heating source that is on 24/7 will not reduce your bills.

tim

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

tim.... wrote:
"MM" wrote in message
...
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption
(11.51p a unit in my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate
(5.06p), i.e. a lot cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter

Nothing just to change the meter.

and what
could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night storage
heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled electric
radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off and they
are very effective. I could get more.

E7 is only of any use to you if you change at least 30% of your
electricity usage to overnight.

Using it for a heating source that is on 24/7 will not reduce your
bills.
tim

It usually needs to be nearer 40% of night usage to make a saving. You also
will make no savings if you have a low electricity consumption as the
standing charges are much higher.

--
Adam

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On 12/7/2010 12:42 PM, MM wrote:
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter and what
could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night storage
heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled electric
radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off and they
are very effective. I could get more.

I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil prices and
trying to look for alternative methods of heating for the future, at
least until I can eventually move to a house with a chimney and start
burning wood.


Do *not* have economy 7 unless you have storage heaters - your day rate
is massive.
Why not get a chimney built? Be warned - even solid fuels are almost as
expensive these days.

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On 12/7/2010 12:47 PM, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter

Nothing just to change the meter.

and what
could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night storage
heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled electric
radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off and they
are very effective. I could get more.

E7 is only of any use to you if you change at least 30% of your electricity
usage to overnight.

Using it for a heating source that is on 24/7 will not reduce your bills.


Not only will it not reduce the bills, it might send them sky high. This
is what was making my bill so enormous.

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 12:47:22 -0000, tim.... wrote:

Using it for a heating source that is on 24/7 will not reduce your
bills.

In fact it will probably make them bigger as daytime E7 rates are
higher than standard tariff rates.

As for the OP trying to reduce his energy bill all sources have gone
up. My lecky is 10p/kwhr, the last lot of oil was 43.5p/l or roughly
4.35p/kwHr but that's input you have to factor in boiler efficiency
say 80% so thats about 5.4p/kwhr output. Heating oil is now hitting
60p/l (*) so 7.5p/kwhr output the gap is closing. In fact oil is more
expensive than cheap rate E7 but is far more convient, heat when you
want it and it doesn't run out if it suddenly gets cold(er).

(*) Yes, really. It's shot up from the mid 40's p/l since this cold
weather started. Mostly down to demand and "difficulties in
distribution" rather than underlying crude price though that has
risen as well but shouldn't have come through yet.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

Maria wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:42 PM, MM wrote:
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption
(11.51p a unit in my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate
(5.06p), i.e. a lot cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter and what
could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night storage
heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled electric
radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off and they
are very effective. I could get more.

I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil prices
and trying to look for alternative methods of heating for the
future, at least until I can eventually move to a house with a
chimney and start burning wood.


Do *not* have economy 7 unless you have storage heaters - your day
rate is massive.
Why not get a chimney built? Be warned - even solid fuels are almost
as expensive these days.

I'm fortunate to be on mains gas. Two years ago I had my conventional (30
years old!) gas boiler replaced with a modern Worcester Bosch condensing
combi. The old hot water tank has gone (and the airing cupboard in the
bathroom replaced with a walk-in shower) as has all the tanks and pipework
in the loft.

I have been astonished at how much less gas we are now using. Despite having
reduced my monthly direct debit gas payment, I have still just received a
£145.00 refund because a positive balance had built up.

Only heating water when you actually turn on a hot tap - rather than heating
a tank-full which you may never use, makes all the difference - as does
using a more efficient boiler for the central heating.

We are over the moon at the savings we have made in fuel costs the past two
years.

--
Kev

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Dec 7, 12:42*pm, MM wrote:

I do have oil-filled electric
radiators

I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil prices and

Oil *filled* radiators? They do not consume oil.

MBQ

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 12:42:42 +0000, MM wrote:

I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot cheaper.

We have a setup over here where any high-power electric devices[1] that
don't *have* to be on all the time are on a separate meter - the power
company can remotely turn power to them on and off (which they do at
periods of peak demand so they can avoid having to buy in extra capacity
from the grid). In return we get stupidly-cheap electricity for those
devices.

[1] slab heat, storage heat, baseboard heat, water heater, clothes dryer
etc.

Do any UK power companies offer that? I never heard of it when I was
living in the UK - just E7 - but maybe it's something that a few of them
are doing now.

We have a propane-burning furnace which (in theory) picks up the slack
when the 14KW or so of 'leccy heaters are shut off. Usually our winter
heating bills end up being split pretty much evenly between electric and
propane, and the propane market actually seems quite volatile - there
have been a times where electric heat has worked out significantly
cheaper.

cheers

Jules

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 12:42:42 +0000, MM wrote:

I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter and what
could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night storage
heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled electric
radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off and they
are very effective. I could get more.

You will end up paying higher bills.
The day rate for power is much higher to compensate for the low night
rate. You need to use a hell of a lot of power at night to come out
ahead. We discovered that fact after 8 years here with a double meter
when we managed to get a sight of someone else's bill and found our
day rate was double what the were paying

I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil prices and
trying to look for alternative methods of heating for the future, at
least until I can eventually move to a house with a chimney and start
burning wood.


Many years ago our entire estate was found to have been built with
faulty flues. One of the neighbours instead of ripping the flue out
just knocked a hole in the wall and ran a stove pipe out and up the
outside. Then he bricked up around the pipe. Did it all himself in a
weekend. Of course I don't know whether it wolud be lawful to do that
today after Prescott buggered up the DIY hous maintenance business.

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 13:15:32 +0000, Maria wrote:

On 12/7/2010 12:47 PM, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter

Nothing just to change the meter.

and what
could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night storage
heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled electric
radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off and they
are very effective. I could get more.

E7 is only of any use to you if you change at least 30% of your electricity
usage to overnight.

Using it for a heating source that is on 24/7 will not reduce your bills.


Not only will it not reduce the bills, it might send them sky high. This
is what was making my bill so enormous.

Yes we had that problem. There was a night meter already installed
when we bough this place. We were paying double the normal day rate
for years until we found out what the actual rates were. They didn't
take the extra meter out just added the readings together.

Welcome to rip off Britain.

Currently trying to reach the insurance company. Gutters and pipes
have come off the roof. When it melts we may get flooding upstairs. I
estmate at least £400 for repairs. Insurance company only puts me on
hold :(

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

Jules Richardson wrote:

We have a setup over here where any high-power electric devices[1] that
don't *have* to be on all the time are on a separate meter - the power
company can remotely turn power to them on and off (which they do at
periods of peak demand so they can avoid having to buy in extra capacity
from the grid). In return we get stupidly-cheap electricity for those
devices.

[1] slab heat, storage heat, baseboard heat, water heater, clothes dryer
etc.

Do any UK power companies offer that? I never heard of it when I was
living in the UK - just E7 - but maybe it's something that a few of them
are doing now.

Not yet, but there are plans to eventually force "smart meters" onto us. In
theory these could be a good thing but one can't help thinking that the
power companies will leap at the opportunity to abuse them and increase
revenue by imposing excessively high charges at times of high demand
without giving us the benefit of lower charges in the slack periods.

--
Mike Clarke

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On 12/7/2010 2:31 PM, AlanG wrote:
On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 13:15:32 +0000, wrote:

On 12/7/2010 12:47 PM, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter

Nothing just to change the meter.

and what
could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night storage
heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled electric
radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off and they
are very effective. I could get more.

E7 is only of any use to you if you change at least 30% of your electricity
usage to overnight.

Using it for a heating source that is on 24/7 will not reduce your bills.


Not only will it not reduce the bills, it might send them sky high. This
is what was making my bill so enormous.

Yes we had that problem. There was a night meter already installed
when we bough this place. We were paying double the normal day rate
for years until we found out what the actual rates were. They didn't
take the extra meter out just added the readings together.

Welcome to rip off Britain.

Currently trying to reach the insurance company. Gutters and pipes
have come off the roof. When it melts we may get flooding upstairs. I
estmate at least £400 for repairs. Insurance company only puts me on
hold :(

I had a roof with no gutters for ages - nothing happened except a bit of
a damp patch on a wall, which was cured as soon as the guttering was
replaced. The problem with house insurance is always the same - so many
people are trying to call because so many have been affected that you
can't get through!
Last time we lost some tiles in a high wind, I just got a roof monkey to
fix it for 40 quid. Probably cheaper than claiming anyway.

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

Mike Clarke wrote:

Not yet, but there are plans to eventually force "smart meters" onto us. In
theory these could be a good thing but one can't help thinking that the
power companies will leap at the opportunity to abuse them and increase
revenue by imposing excessively high charges at times of high demand
without giving us the benefit of lower charges in the slack periods.

What is absolutely certain is that working out what is the best
deal will become even more of a minefield than it is already.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Dec 7, 12:42*pm, MM wrote:
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

Check the effects on your daily use too. Economy 7 usually puts the
daily unit rate and the standing charges up by so much that it's not
worth it, even if the night-time was free.

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 13:04:40 -0000, ARWadsworth wrote:

You also will make no savings if you have a low electricity consumption
as the standing charges are much higher.

Equipower do E7 with not standing charge, even a hidden one. Their
per unit prices are above the cheapest tarrifs out there but for low
users only paying for what you use is still worth while.

I'd give a guide to their E7 prices but they have broken their
website by having a critical part of it done in Flash. So much for an
ethical social venture company. Many people with accesabilty problems
cannot use Flash.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On 07/12/10 15:35, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 13:04:40 -0000, ARWadsworth wrote:

You also will make no savings if you have a low electricity consumption
as the standing charges are much higher.

Equipower do E7 with not standing charge, even a hidden one. Their
per unit prices are above the cheapest tarrifs out there but for low
users only paying for what you use is still worth while.

I'd give a guide to their E7 prices but they have broken their
website by having a critical part of it done in Flash. So much for an
ethical social venture company. Many people with accesabilty problems
cannot use Flash.


Southern Region
Standard 12.78p
E7 15.54p day--5.43p night, all inc Vat

p.s even Linux works perfectly with flash these days ;(


-

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

"AlanG" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 13:15:32 +0000, Maria wrote:

On 12/7/2010 12:47 PM, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter

Nothing just to change the meter.

and what
could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night storage
heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled electric
radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off and they
are very effective. I could get more.

E7 is only of any use to you if you change at least 30% of your
electricity
usage to overnight.

Using it for a heating source that is on 24/7 will not reduce your
bills.


Not only will it not reduce the bills, it might send them sky high. This
is what was making my bill so enormous.

Yes we had that problem. There was a night meter already installed
when we bough this place. We were paying double the normal day rate
for years until we found out what the actual rates were. They didn't
take the extra meter out just added the readings together.

Welcome to rip off Britain.


How is you failing to check the rate stated on your bill with the freely
available rates elsewhere, a rip-off?

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

tim.... wrote:
"AlanG" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 13:15:32 +0000, Maria wrote:

On 12/7/2010 12:47 PM, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption
(11.51p a unit in my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate
(5.06p), i.e. a lot cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter

Nothing just to change the meter.

and what
could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night storage
heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled electric
radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off and
they are very effective. I could get more.

E7 is only of any use to you if you change at least 30% of your
electricity
usage to overnight.

Using it for a heating source that is on 24/7 will not reduce your
bills.


Not only will it not reduce the bills, it might send them sky high.
This is what was making my bill so enormous.

Yes we had that problem. There was a night meter already installed
when we bough this place. We were paying double the normal day rate
for years until we found out what the actual rates were. They didn't
take the extra meter out just added the readings together.

Welcome to rip off Britain.


How is you failing to check the rate stated on your bill with the
freely available rates elsewhere, a rip-off?

Exactly my thoughts. It is hardly the fault of the energy company if Alang
is too thick to check what tariff he is on when he moves into a new home...

--
Kev

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 14:39:09 +0000, Maria wrote:

On 12/7/2010 2:31 PM, AlanG wrote:
On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 13:15:32 +0000, wrote:

On 12/7/2010 12:47 PM, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter

Nothing just to change the meter.

and what
could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night storage
heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled electric
radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off and they
are very effective. I could get more.

E7 is only of any use to you if you change at least 30% of your electricity
usage to overnight.

Using it for a heating source that is on 24/7 will not reduce your bills.


Not only will it not reduce the bills, it might send them sky high. This
is what was making my bill so enormous.

Yes we had that problem. There was a night meter already installed
when we bough this place. We were paying double the normal day rate
for years until we found out what the actual rates were. They didn't
take the extra meter out just added the readings together.

Welcome to rip off Britain.

Currently trying to reach the insurance company. Gutters and pipes
have come off the roof. When it melts we may get flooding upstairs. I
estmate at least £400 for repairs. Insurance company only puts me on
hold :(

I had a roof with no gutters for ages - nothing happened except a bit of
a damp patch on a wall, which was cured as soon as the guttering was
replaced.

Not ours. The water gets onto the top of the wall and seeps into the
brickwork. Destroys the wall paper and blows the plaster. We had this
problem last year. I had new gutter fitted in February and spent a
month doing the redecorating myself.

There are gutters off all over this area. An enterprising repair man
has just gone round posting a quote through every door with
gutter/drainpipe damage. Quite reasonable estimate too. I know since
it is about what I paid in February but he has promised to double up
the support brackets. This time I get to claim on insurance too.

The problem with house insurance is always the same - so many
people are trying to call because so many have been affected that you
can't get through!
Last time we lost some tiles in a high wind, I just got a roof monkey to
fix it for 40 quid. Probably cheaper than claiming anyway.

I do that anyway for anything under the excess. We have to pay the
first £150 anyway.

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Dec 7, 4:21*pm, "Mark." wrote:
Southern Region
Standard 12.78p
E7 15.54p day--5.43p night, all inc Vat

I guess they do not want E7 people.

N-Power Sign Online Dual Fuel V18
Electricity - Day...... 4.98p inc VAT (*1)
Electricity - Night ...10.67p inc VAT (*1)
Gas ....................... 2.42p inc VAT (*1)

(*1) Less £50+£50 annual discount on those prices or about 10-12%.

Gas is half the price - but has higher capital, maintenance, teeth
sucking & maintenance cost.

If you are North facing, detached, poorly insulated, then it is a
pretty much a no-brainer to use gas.

If you are South facing, semi-detached, well insulated (and I do not
mean just windows!) then E7 can be viable but I hate the lack of true
radiant heating so it is relegated to bulk-hall & bedroom heating.
Living areas get proper radiant which is so much more comfortable than
anything except underfloor which is the ideal (with heat-pump or GCH
or I suppose E7 if you can get a row of tanks!).

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

"js.b1" wrote in message
...
On Dec 7, 4:21 pm, "Mark." wrote:
Southern Region
Standard 12.78p
E7 15.54p day--5.43p night, all inc Vat

I guess they do not want E7 people.

N-Power Sign Online Dual Fuel V18
Electricity - Day...... 4.98p inc VAT (*1)
Electricity - Night ...10.67p inc VAT (*1)

Sounds good. Usually the night tariff is more expensive.

--
Bartc

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

js.b1 wrote:
On Dec 7, 4:21 pm, "Mark." wrote:
Southern Region
Standard 12.78p
E7 15.54p day--5.43p night, all inc Vat

I guess they do not want E7 people.

N-Power Sign Online Dual Fuel V18
Electricity - Day...... 4.98p inc VAT (*1)
Electricity - Night ...10.67p inc VAT (*1)

Are you su-)?


--
Adam

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

MM wrote:

I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

You've missed out one vital number.

Let's say that you use x units during the day period and y during the
night period. Total use in 24 hours = (x+y).

If N = standard day rate, D = E7 day rate, and C = E7 night rate, the
break-even point is given when

N * (x+y) = D*x + C*y

so N*x + N*y = D*x + C*y

and N*y = x(D-N) + c*y

and 0 = x(D-N) + y(C-N)

so -x(D-N) = y(C-N)

and - x/y = (C-N)/D-N)

Putting in some illustrative figures

C = 5 D = 15 N =12

-x/y = (5 - 12)/(15 - 12)

- x/y = -7/3

So the break-even point is when you use 3 night-rate units and 7 day
rate units in 24 hours using the sample figures given.

Or put it another way, night rate must be at least 30 percent of total
electicity consumption on the sample figures given.

Punch in your own numbers and see what you get. Don't forget that in
summer those cheap night rate units might be going to waste.

TF

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Dec 7, 12:42*pm, MM wrote:
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter and what
could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night storage
heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled electric
radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off and they
are very effective. I could get more.

I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil prices and
trying to look for alternative methods of heating for the future, at
least until I can eventually move to a house with a chimney and start
burning wood.

MM

My heating bill is zero. I have 600mm of insulation everywhere and
quadruple glazing. I have recently (and unusually) had to light my
small woodburning stove. I burn scrap timber, looted from skips and my
builder's merchant who is glad to be rid of it. Pallets for example
are to be had for free in many places.

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Dec 7, 5:10*pm, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:
js.b1 wrote:
On Dec 7, 4:21 pm, "Mark." wrote:
Southern Region
Standard 12.78p
E7 15.54p day--5.43p night, all inc Vat

I guess they do not want E7 people.

N-Power Sign Online Dual Fuel V18
Electricity - Day...... 4.98p inc VAT (*1)
Electricity - Night ...10.67p inc VAT (*1)

Are you su-)?

Heh! Oops, the Day is 10.67p and the Night is 4.98p and
00:30-07:30 :-)

Sat on a freezing cold quarry tile floor all afternoon, brain must be
a bit lower than it used to be...

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

Ret. wrote:
Maria wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:42 PM, MM wrote:
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption
(11.51p a unit in my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate
(5.06p), i.e. a lot cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter and
what could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night
storage heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled
electric radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off
and they are very effective. I could get more.

I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil prices
and trying to look for alternative methods of heating for the
future, at least until I can eventually move to a house with a
chimney and start burning wood.


Do *not* have economy 7 unless you have storage heaters - your day
rate is massive.
Why not get a chimney built? Be warned - even solid fuels are almost
as expensive these days.

I'm fortunate to be on mains gas. Two years ago I had my conventional
(30 years old!) gas boiler replaced with a modern Worcester Bosch
condensing combi. The old hot water tank has gone (and the airing
cupboard in the bathroom replaced with a walk-in shower) as has all
the tanks and pipework in the loft.

I have been astonished at how much less gas we are now using. Despite
having reduced my monthly direct debit gas payment, I have still just
received a £145.00 refund because a positive balance had built up.

Only heating water when you actually turn on a hot tap - rather than
heating a tank-full which you may never use, makes all the difference
- as does using a more efficient boiler for the central heating.

We are over the moon at the savings we have made in fuel costs the
past two years.

Be carefull Kev. You will have half of uk.d-i-y telling you that combi
boilers are crap and that you will never get financial payback for your new
boiler.

--
Adam

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

ARWadsworth wrote:
Ret. wrote:
Maria wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:42 PM, MM wrote:
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption
(11.51p a unit in my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate
(5.06p), i.e. a lot cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter and
what could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night
storage heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled
electric radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off
and they are very effective. I could get more.

I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil prices
and trying to look for alternative methods of heating for the
future, at least until I can eventually move to a house with a
chimney and start burning wood.


Do *not* have economy 7 unless you have storage heaters - your day
rate is massive.
Why not get a chimney built? Be warned - even solid fuels are almost
as expensive these days.

I'm fortunate to be on mains gas. Two years ago I had my conventional
(30 years old!) gas boiler replaced with a modern Worcester Bosch
condensing combi. The old hot water tank has gone (and the airing
cupboard in the bathroom replaced with a walk-in shower) as has all
the tanks and pipework in the loft.

I have been astonished at how much less gas we are now using. Despite
having reduced my monthly direct debit gas payment, I have still just
received a £145.00 refund because a positive balance had built up.

Only heating water when you actually turn on a hot tap - rather than
heating a tank-full which you may never use, makes all the difference
- as does using a more efficient boiler for the central heating.

We are over the moon at the savings we have made in fuel costs the
past two years.

Be carefull Kev. You will have half of uk.d-i-y telling you that combi
boilers are crap and that you will never get financial payback for
your new boiler.

TBH, a few years ago and I was arguing that I wouldn't touch a combi with a
barge-pole. The people I knew who had one never ceased complaining about the
lukewarm water from the hot tap - and the fact that it took two hours to
fill a bath.

When I was considering replacing the boiler I was still of that opinion -
and planning on having a condensing non-combi put in. It was only my next
door neighbour (and a few posters on uk.diy) telling me that new combis were
a huge improvement on old ones, that persuaded me to change my mind. We have
no regrets whatsoever. There is ample hot water and it feeds our shower
without the need for pumps. It does take a little longer to fill the bath
than it did before - but not significantly longer - and so long as you are
aware of the fact and start the bath running in plenty of time - it's just
not an issue.

The cost saving has been significant for us and, as our old boiler was on
its last legs anyway - the replacement cost was necessary.

There are other benefits as well. With our old boiler, first thing in the
morning when the timer kicked in, the heat produced would be divided between
heating the water in the tank and heating the water in the radiators. With
our combi, all the heat goes to the radiators and so the house heats up a
lot faster for when we get out of bed. We also have piping hot water
whenever we want it - and it never runs out! If we have guests we can all
have a shower or bath one after the other without the water starting to run
cold. I'm a complete convert!

--
Kev

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 16:22:53 -0000, "tim...."
wrote:


"AlanG" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 13:15:32 +0000, Maria wrote:

On 12/7/2010 12:47 PM, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter

Nothing just to change the meter.

and what
could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night storage
heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled electric
radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off and they
are very effective. I could get more.

E7 is only of any use to you if you change at least 30% of your
electricity
usage to overnight.

Using it for a heating source that is on 24/7 will not reduce your
bills.


Not only will it not reduce the bills, it might send them sky high. This
is what was making my bill so enormous.

Yes we had that problem. There was a night meter already installed
when we bough this place. We were paying double the normal day rate
for years until we found out what the actual rates were. They didn't
take the extra meter out just added the readings together.

Welcome to rip off Britain.


How is you failing to check the rate stated on your bill with the freely
available rates elsewhere, a rip-off?

Because until a couple of years ago I wasn't aware there was a
difference between the day rates and thus had no reason to check them.
I have never had E7 so when we signed up we told them we had two
meters. Nobody mentioned different rates. I didn't find out until
someone showed me their bill and I noticed the difference

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Dec 7, 5:58*pm, "Ret." wrote:
ARWadsworth wrote:
Ret. wrote:
Maria wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:42 PM, MM wrote:
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption
(11.51p a unit in my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate
(5.06p), i.e. a lot cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter and
what could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night
storage heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled
electric radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off
and they are very effective. I could get more.

I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil prices
and trying to look for alternative methods of heating for the
future, at least until I can eventually move to a house with a
chimney and start burning wood.

Do *not* have economy 7 unless you have storage heaters - your day
rate is massive.
Why not get a chimney built? Be warned - even solid fuels are almost
as expensive these days.

I'm fortunate to be on mains gas. Two years ago I had my conventional
(30 years old!) gas boiler replaced with a modern Worcester Bosch
condensing combi. The old hot water tank has gone (and the airing
cupboard in the bathroom replaced with a walk-in shower) as has all
the tanks and pipework in the loft.

I have been astonished at how much less gas we are now using. Despite
having reduced my monthly direct debit gas payment, I have still just
received a 145.00 refund because a positive balance had built up.

Only heating water when you actually turn on a hot tap - rather than
heating a tank-full which you may never use, makes all the difference
- as does using a more efficient boiler for the central heating.

We are over the moon at the savings we have made in fuel costs the
past two years.

Be carefull Kev. You will have half of uk.d-i-y telling you that combi
boilers are crap and that you will never get financial payback for
your new boiler.

TBH, a few years ago and I was arguing that I wouldn't touch a combi with a
barge-pole. The people I knew who had one never ceased complaining about the
lukewarm water from the hot tap - and the fact that it took two hours to
fill a bath.

When I was considering replacing the boiler I was still of that opinion -
and planning on having a condensing non-combi put in. It was only my next
door neighbour (and a few posters on uk.diy) telling me that new combis were
a huge improvement on old ones, that persuaded me to change my mind. We have
no regrets whatsoever. There is ample hot water and it feeds our shower
without the need for pumps. It does take a little longer to fill the bath
than it did before - but not significantly longer - and so long as you are
aware of the fact and start the bath running in plenty of time - it's just
not an issue.

The cost saving has been significant for us and, as our old boiler was on
its last legs anyway - the replacement cost was necessary.

There are other benefits as well. With our old boiler, first thing in the
morning when the timer kicked in, the heat produced would be divided between
heating the water in the tank and heating the water in the radiators. With
our combi, all the heat goes to the radiators and so the house heats up a
lot faster for when we get out of bed. We also have piping hot water
whenever we want it - and it never runs out! If we have guests we can all
have a shower or bath one after the other without the water starting to run
cold. I'm a complete convert!

--
Kev- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The problem is they are a complex beast. Hence less reliable. And
the heat exchanger scale up .

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 14:33:49 +0000, Mike Clarke wrote:

Jules Richardson wrote:

We have a setup over here where any high-power electric devices[1] that
don't *have* to be on all the time are on a separate meter - the power
company can remotely turn power to them on and off
...

Not yet, but there are plans to eventually force "smart meters" onto us.

I think some places over here have those, too - aren't they designed to
better measure consumption, and also allow back-feeding of home-generated
power to the grid?

The setup we've got here is a little control box and a bunch of relays -
the power company send a signal down the wire (@ 220Hz IIRC) and can
switch them on and off. We've got two meters outside, one measuring total
consumption and one measuring just the load-controlled portion, but I
don't believe there's anything special about them.

In theory these could be a good thing but one can't help thinking that
the power companies will leap at the opportunity to abuse them and
increase revenue by imposing excessively high charges at times of high
demand without giving us the benefit of lower charges in the slack
periods.

Long ago I came to the conclusion that it's not really worth shopping
around for any kind of long-term service (gas, 'leccy, phone etc.) - even
if a deal seems attractive initially, they always seem to end up screwing
you sooner or later and it probably all pretty much averages out over a
longer period of time.

(Our local 'leccy company's a co-op, incidentally, so we tend to get a
nice little cheque in the post every so often if they're doing well.
That's nice, because I don't think there's actualy a choice of power
supplier around here anyway)

cheers

Jules

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

Ret. wrote:
ARWadsworth wrote:
Ret. wrote:
Maria wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:42 PM, MM wrote:
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption
(11.51p a unit in my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate
(5.06p), i.e. a lot cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter and
what could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night
storage heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled
electric radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill
off and they are very effective. I could get more.

I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil prices
and trying to look for alternative methods of heating for the
future, at least until I can eventually move to a house with a
chimney and start burning wood.


Do *not* have economy 7 unless you have storage heaters - your day
rate is massive.
Why not get a chimney built? Be warned - even solid fuels are
almost as expensive these days.

I'm fortunate to be on mains gas. Two years ago I had my
conventional (30 years old!) gas boiler replaced with a modern
Worcester Bosch condensing combi. The old hot water tank has gone
(and the airing cupboard in the bathroom replaced with a walk-in
shower) as has all the tanks and pipework in the loft.

I have been astonished at how much less gas we are now using.
Despite having reduced my monthly direct debit gas payment, I have
still just received a £145.00 refund because a positive balance had
built up. Only heating water when you actually turn on a hot tap -
rather than
heating a tank-full which you may never use, makes all the
difference - as does using a more efficient boiler for the central
heating. We are over the moon at the savings we have made in fuel costs
the
past two years.

Be carefull Kev. You will have half of uk.d-i-y telling you that
combi boilers are crap and that you will never get financial payback
for your new boiler.

TBH, a few years ago and I was arguing that I wouldn't touch a combi
with a barge-pole. The people I knew who had one never ceased
complaining about the lukewarm water from the hot tap - and the fact
that it took two hours to fill a bath.

When I was considering replacing the boiler I was still of that
opinion - and planning on having a condensing non-combi put in. It
was only my next door neighbour (and a few posters on uk.diy) telling
me that new combis were a huge improvement on old ones, that
persuaded me to change my mind. We have no regrets whatsoever. There
is ample hot water and it feeds our shower without the need for
pumps. It does take a little longer to fill the bath than it did
before - but not significantly longer - and so long as you are aware
of the fact and start the bath running in plenty of time - it's just
not an issue.
The cost saving has been significant for us and, as our old boiler
was on its last legs anyway - the replacement cost was necessary.

There are other benefits as well. With our old boiler, first thing in
the morning when the timer kicked in, the heat produced would be
divided between heating the water in the tank and heating the water
in the radiators. With our combi, all the heat goes to the radiators
and so the house heats up a lot faster for when we get out of bed. We
also have piping hot water whenever we want it - and it never runs
out! If we have guests we can all have a shower or bath one after the
other without the water starting to run cold. I'm a complete convert!

You don't have to convert me:-) It takes longer to fill a bath but so what.
At least you can take a bath at anytime of the day without waiting for the
HW to heat up.

--
Adam

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

Mark. wrote:
On 07/12/10 15:35, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 13:04:40 -0000, ARWadsworth wrote:

You also will make no savings if you have a low electricity consumption
as the standing charges are much higher.

Equipower do E7 with not standing charge, even a hidden one. Their
per unit prices are above the cheapest tarrifs out there but for low
users only paying for what you use is still worth while.

I'd give a guide to their E7 prices but they have broken their
website by having a critical part of it done in Flash. So much for an
ethical social venture company. Many people with accesabilty problems
cannot use Flash.


Southern Region
Standard 12.78p
E7 15.54p day--5.43p night, all inc Vat

p.s even Linux works perfectly with flash these days ;(


-
That depends. Latest 64 bit flash breaks on many sites. Old version did not.

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

harry wrote:
On Dec 7, 5:58 pm, "Ret." wrote:
ARWadsworth wrote:
Ret. wrote:
Maria wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:42 PM, MM wrote:
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption
(11.51p a unit in my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate
(5.06p), i.e. a lot cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter and
what could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night
storage heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled
electric radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill
off and they are very effective. I could get more.

I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil
prices and trying to look for alternative methods of heating for
the future, at least until I can eventually move to a house with
a chimney and start burning wood.

Do *not* have economy 7 unless you have storage heaters - your day
rate is massive.
Why not get a chimney built? Be warned - even solid fuels are
almost as expensive these days.

I'm fortunate to be on mains gas. Two years ago I had my
conventional (30 years old!) gas boiler replaced with a modern
Worcester Bosch condensing combi. The old hot water tank has gone
(and the airing cupboard in the bathroom replaced with a walk-in
shower) as has all the tanks and pipework in the loft.

I have been astonished at how much less gas we are now using.
Despite having reduced my monthly direct debit gas payment, I have
still just received a 145.00 refund because a positive balance had
built up.

Only heating water when you actually turn on a hot tap - rather
than heating a tank-full which you may never use, makes all the
difference - as does using a more efficient boiler for the central
heating.

We are over the moon at the savings we have made in fuel costs the
past two years.

Be carefull Kev. You will have half of uk.d-i-y telling you that
combi boilers are crap and that you will never get financial
payback for your new boiler.

TBH, a few years ago and I was arguing that I wouldn't touch a combi
with a barge-pole. The people I knew who had one never ceased
complaining about the lukewarm water from the hot tap - and the fact
that it took two hours to fill a bath.

When I was considering replacing the boiler I was still of that
opinion - and planning on having a condensing non-combi put in. It
was only my next door neighbour (and a few posters on uk.diy)
telling me that new combis were a huge improvement on old ones, that
persuaded me to change my mind. We have no regrets whatsoever. There
is ample hot water and it feeds our shower without the need for
pumps. It does take a little longer to fill the bath than it did
before - but not significantly longer - and so long as you are aware
of the fact and start the bath running in plenty of time - it's just
not an issue.

The cost saving has been significant for us and, as our old boiler
was on its last legs anyway - the replacement cost was necessary.

There are other benefits as well. With our old boiler, first thing
in the morning when the timer kicked in, the heat produced would be
divided between heating the water in the tank and heating the water
in the radiators. With our combi, all the heat goes to the radiators
and so the house heats up a lot faster for when we get out of bed.
We also have piping hot water whenever we want it - and it never
runs out! If we have guests we can all have a shower or bath one
after the other without the water starting to run cold. I'm a
complete convert!

--
Kev- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The problem is they are a complex beast. Hence less reliable. And
the heat exchanger scale up .

They are a bit more complex than a standard boiler - but not a lot. I can't
see why the heat exchanger in a combi should scale up any more than the heat
exchanger in any boiler. As I live in a very soft water area, scaling is not
an issue for me anyway (I never have to descale my kettle for example).

--
Kev

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Dec 7, 1:26*pm, "Ret." wrote:
Maria wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:42 PM, MM wrote:
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption
(11.51p a unit in my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate
(5.06p), i.e. a lot cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter and what
could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night storage
heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled electric
radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off and they
are very effective. I could get more.

I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil prices
and trying to look for alternative methods of heating for the
future, at least until I can eventually move to a house with a
chimney and start burning wood.

Do *not* have economy 7 unless you have storage heaters - your day
rate is massive.
Why not get a chimney built? Be warned - even solid fuels are almost
as expensive these days.

I'm fortunate to be on mains gas. Two years ago I had my conventional (30
years old!) gas boiler replaced with a modern Worcester Bosch condensing
combi. The old hot water tank has gone (and the airing cupboard in the
bathroom replaced with a walk-in shower) as has all the tanks and pipework
in the loft.

I have been astonished at how much less gas we are now using. Despite having
reduced my monthly direct debit gas payment, I have still just received a
145.00 refund because a positive balance had built up.

Only heating water when you actually turn on a hot tap - rather than heating
a tank-full which you may never use, makes all the difference - as does
using a more efficient boiler for the central heating.

We are over the moon at the savings we have made in fuel costs the past two
years.

--
Kev- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Useful post Kev, thanks.

We've got a thirty year old Baxi Bermuda back boiler - without
tempting Providence, it works and works well, keeps us toasty warm
with lashings of hot water.

But common sense tells me it won't last forever.

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 09:26:29 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

My heating bill is zero. I have 600mm of insulation everywhere and
quadruple glazing. I have recently (and unusually) had to light my
small woodburning stove. I burn scrap timber, looted from skips and my
builder's merchant who is glad to be rid of it. Pallets for example
are to be had for free in many places.

With that much insulation you could save on the wood. Simply invite a
couple of friends around to watch telly with you. Each person will
produce around 104 watts of heat while sitting down and relaxing.

Get a few exercise bikes in the room and you could increase it to
around 500W per person! You could even charge for the use of your
"gym".

--
Cynic

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 09:03:05 -0800 (PST), js.b1 wrote:

Southern Region
Standard 12.78p
E7 15.54p day--5.43p night, all inc Vat

I guess they do not want E7 people.

N-Power Sign Online Dual Fuel V18
Electricity - Day...... 4.98p inc VAT (*1)
Electricity - Night ...10.67p inc VAT (*1)
Gas ....................... 2.42p inc VAT (*1)

Ebico rates are not the best but you only pay for what you use, there
are no standing charges in any form. Which is the context of this
sub-thread.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 19:38:05 -0000, Ret. wrote:

I can't see why the heat exchanger in a combi should scale up any more
than the heat exchanger in any boiler.

Because they are always heating fresh water. A conventional boiler
heats the primary water which is not constantly refreshed bringing in
fresh carbonates. The inside of the HW cylinder can scale up but that
is a much bigger device so takes somewhat longer for it to be a
problem. It will normally only result in a slower reheat time not a
boiler refusing to work because the heat exchanger is blocked or has
a restricted flow.

I don't like combis as it's a single point of failure and a complex
one at that. A combi fails and you lose both your heating and hot
water. A conventional boiler fails and you only lose only heating as
the cylinder will almost certainly have an immersion heater and by
running the pump you can extract heat from the cylinder into the
heating system, mind you 3kW isn't going to do a lot in terms of
space heating... You also don't have any stored water, water supply
fails you have no water. You'll have to be quick getting to the
supermarket for bottled water as every other household will be
dashing down there to stock up as well.

As I live in a very soft water area, scaling is not an issue for me
anyway (I never have to descale my kettle for example).

It wouldn't be a problem here, now. But it would have been a couple
of years back before the source of our water was changed. I think
more people in this country have some form of hard water than soft.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

"AlanG" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 16:22:53 -0000, "tim...."
wrote:


"AlanG" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 13:15:32 +0000, Maria wrote:

On 12/7/2010 12:47 PM, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit
in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter

Nothing just to change the meter.

and what
could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night storage
heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled electric
radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off and they
are very effective. I could get more.

E7 is only of any use to you if you change at least 30% of your
electricity
usage to overnight.

Using it for a heating source that is on 24/7 will not reduce your
bills.


Not only will it not reduce the bills, it might send them sky high. This
is what was making my bill so enormous.

Yes we had that problem. There was a night meter already installed
when we bough this place. We were paying double the normal day rate
for years until we found out what the actual rates were. They didn't
take the extra meter out just added the readings together.

Welcome to rip off Britain.


How is you failing to check the rate stated on your bill with the freely
available rates elsewhere, a rip-off?

Because until a couple of years ago I wasn't aware there was a
difference between the day rates and thus had no reason to check them.
I have never had E7 so when we signed up we told them we had two
meters. Nobody mentioned different rates. I didn't find out until
someone showed me their bill and I noticed the difference

I still don't see how this is a rip off.

I can assure you, as someone who previous lived in a property that only had
electric heating, that the E7 tariff saves some people a lot of money, so it
is hardly a "scam" on the part of the leccy company that it is available.

tim

Worth it to have Economy 7?
 

"MM" wrote in message
...
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

Economy 7 is utter crap. It is cheap to run but extremely inflexible. On
cold days, the storage heaters cool down in the afternoon and you have to
rely on full tariff electricity or gas to heat the house in the evening. If
you guess cold day but it's a warm day the next day, you are wasting energy
and sweltering as you can't adjust the storage heaters. I had it 20 years
ago. I would not buy any house that had Economy 7 installed.