On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 18:04:51 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson wrote:

Long ago I came to the conclusion that it's not really worth shopping
around for any kind of long-term service (gas, 'leccy, phone etc.) -
even if a deal seems attractive initially, they always seem to end up
screwing you sooner or later and it probably all pretty much averages
out over a longer period of time.

This side of the pond with our fantastic market driven deregulated
gas and electric suppliers it is well worth the occasional look at
what is out there. There are always very good deals avialable but
they generally a contract for a period of time after which you revert
to the standard tarrif from that supplier. Between these and the
standard tarrifs there are the open ended deals that give you better
prices by insisting on fixed monthly Direct Debit, paperless billing,
supllying meter readings online etc.

Then of course there is huge spread of costs just on standard tarrifs
let alone involving any discounts or deals. A little while ago when
doing my annualish check of prices I was staggered to see electricty
tarrifs with unit costs not far short of 20p, I think I was paying
about 7p/unit (DD, Paperless etc etc) at the time ...

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Ret." wrote in message
...


TBH, a few years ago and I was arguing that I wouldn't touch a combi with
a barge-pole. The people I knew who had one never ceased complaining about
the lukewarm water from the hot tap - and the fact that it took two hours
to fill a bath.

The cost saving has been significant for us and, as our old boiler was on
its last legs anyway - the replacement cost was necessary.

There are other benefits as well. With our old boiler, first thing in the
morning when the timer kicked in, the heat produced would be divided
between heating the water in the tank and heating the water in the
radiators. With our combi, all the heat goes to the radiators and so the
house heats up a lot faster for when we get out of bed. We also have
piping hot water whenever we want it - and it never runs out! If we have
guests we can all have a shower or bath one after the other without the
water starting to run cold. I'm a complete convert!

Except when the hot water is working, the heating is off (depending on the
boiler).

I haven't had much luck with combi boilers. I inherited an old one when I
bought a house, which blew up, then over the course of nine years installed
*two* new combis, always going wrong (mostly due to sludge in the system),
and spending a fortune on successive 'CH engineers' who hadn't a clue what
they were doing.

I've been renting recently and have an average of one problem a year,
fortunately the owner took care of it.

I wish I just had one of those back boilers, with gravity fed hot water, and
an unpressurised CH system that is so easy (and less dangerous) to mess
about with. Those will work for decades. There is no "PCB" that will
suddenly decide the boiler shouldn't operate. Or one of those wall-mounted
hot water boilers: open a hot water tap, and the gas ignites and gives you
hot water *every time*; if there is a gas and water supply (and the pilot is
lit), it will work. No electronics.

--
Bartc

On 12/7/2010 5:58 PM, Ret. wrote:
ARWadsworth wrote:
Ret. wrote:
Maria wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:42 PM, MM wrote:
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption
(11.51p a unit in my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate
(5.06p), i.e. a lot cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter and
what could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night
storage heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled
electric radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off
and they are very effective. I could get more.

I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil prices
and trying to look for alternative methods of heating for the
future, at least until I can eventually move to a house with a
chimney and start burning wood.


Do *not* have economy 7 unless you have storage heaters - your day
rate is massive.
Why not get a chimney built? Be warned - even solid fuels are almost
as expensive these days.

I'm fortunate to be on mains gas. Two years ago I had my conventional
(30 years old!) gas boiler replaced with a modern Worcester Bosch
condensing combi. The old hot water tank has gone (and the airing
cupboard in the bathroom replaced with a walk-in shower) as has all
the tanks and pipework in the loft.

I have been astonished at how much less gas we are now using. Despite
having reduced my monthly direct debit gas payment, I have still just
received a £145.00 refund because a positive balance had built up.

Only heating water when you actually turn on a hot tap - rather than
heating a tank-full which you may never use, makes all the difference
- as does using a more efficient boiler for the central heating.

We are over the moon at the savings we have made in fuel costs the
past two years.

Be carefull Kev. You will have half of uk.d-i-y telling you that combi
boilers are crap and that you will never get financial payback for
your new boiler.

TBH, a few years ago and I was arguing that I wouldn't touch a combi
with a barge-pole. The people I knew who had one never ceased
complaining about the lukewarm water from the hot tap - and the fact
that it took two hours to fill a bath.

When I was considering replacing the boiler I was still of that opinion
- and planning on having a condensing non-combi put in. It was only my
next door neighbour (and a few posters on uk.diy) telling me that new
combis were a huge improvement on old ones, that persuaded me to change
my mind. We have no regrets whatsoever. There is ample hot water and it
feeds our shower without the need for pumps. It does take a little
longer to fill the bath than it did before - but not significantly
longer - and so long as you are aware of the fact and start the bath
running in plenty of time - it's just not an issue.

The cost saving has been significant for us and, as our old boiler was
on its last legs anyway - the replacement cost was necessary.

There are other benefits as well. With our old boiler, first thing in
the morning when the timer kicked in, the heat produced would be divided
between heating the water in the tank and heating the water in the
radiators. With our combi, all the heat goes to the radiators and so the
house heats up a lot faster for when we get out of bed. We also have
piping hot water whenever we want it - and it never runs out! If we have
guests we can all have a shower or bath one after the other without the
water starting to run cold. I'm a complete convert!


Mine doesn't heat the water up very well at all.
I've had two previously - a Potterton with several circuit boards , one
of which would regularly pop, costing around 120 + labour a time, and
the other (can't remember what it was) which ate pumps for a living at
95 quid + labour every time.
The one I have now is an Isar, and backfires when you are least
expecting it. Like being shot at in the middle of the night.

I am not Spartacus wrote:

Economy 7 is utter crap. It is cheap to run but extremely inflexible. On
cold days, the storage heaters cool down in the afternoon and you have to
rely on full tariff electricity or gas to heat the house in the evening. If
you guess cold day but it's a warm day the next day, you are wasting energy
and sweltering as you can't adjust the storage heaters. I had it 20 years
ago. I would not buy any house that had Economy 7 installed.

You seem to be assuming that Economy 7 means storage heaters. As
others have said, provided a certain proportion (depending upon
your actual tariff) of your usage is at night, then it can still
be worthwhile.

Simply by running the washing machine and dishwasher overnight,
and the tumble dryer first thing in the morning (we have to be up
early anyway) I am saving money. Now that I have solar PV, my
daytime consumption will fall (averaged over the year) and
improve the benefit.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:14:19 +0000, Chris J Dixon
wrote:

I am not Spartacus wrote:

Economy 7 is utter crap. It is cheap to run but extremely inflexible. On
cold days, the storage heaters cool down in the afternoon and you have to
rely on full tariff electricity or gas to heat the house in the evening. If
you guess cold day but it's a warm day the next day, you are wasting energy
and sweltering as you can't adjust the storage heaters. I had it 20 years
ago. I would not buy any house that had Economy 7 installed.

You seem to be assuming that Economy 7 means storage heaters. As
others have said, provided a certain proportion (depending upon
your actual tariff) of your usage is at night, then it can still
be worthwhile.

Simply by running the washing machine and dishwasher overnight,
and the tumble dryer first thing in the morning (we have to be up
early anyway) I am saving money. Now that I have solar PV, my
daytime consumption will fall (averaged over the year) and
improve the benefit.

Chris

I don't use the washing machine much, being single, and I don't have a
tumble dryer or dishwasher. I was thinking more of storing the cheap
power (batteries) for release throughout the day, e.g. for running the
computer, running the Hoover. Not for cooking, obviously.

MM

MM wrote:

I was thinking more of storing the cheap power (batteries)
for release throughout the day, e.g. for running the computer

Most UPS are sized to allow time for a clean shutdown in the event of
power loss, not continual running. Depending on your PC, it's likely
you'd need a surprisingly large UPS to store enough energy to run your
computer throughout the day on energy stored during the E7 night period.

Allow say a 250VA load, you'd be looking at e.g. one of these

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/..._sku=sua750xli

By itself it'd give about 1 hour of use, if you wanted longer runtime,
you can add up to four add-on battery packs to get you about 12 hours
run time

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/..._sku=SUA24XLBP

i.e. total cost north of a grand and weighing 20 stone.

The type of UPS batteries actually don't like being discharged regularly
and would require regular replacement (not the 3-5 quoted life if
discharged daily).

Also the total power taken would probably be higher allowing for
charger/inverter inefficiency.

running the Hoover.

Dustbuster?

Not for cooking, obviously.

Obv.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 19:38:05 -0000, Ret. wrote:

I can't see why the heat exchanger in a combi should scale up any
more than the heat exchanger in any boiler.

Because they are always heating fresh water. A conventional boiler
heats the primary water which is not constantly refreshed bringing in
fresh carbonates. The inside of the HW cylinder can scale up but that
is a much bigger device so takes somewhat longer for it to be a
problem. It will normally only result in a slower reheat time not a
boiler refusing to work because the heat exchanger is blocked or has
a restricted flow.

I don't like combis as it's a single point of failure and a complex
one at that. A combi fails and you lose both your heating and hot
water. A conventional boiler fails and you only lose only heating as
the cylinder will almost certainly have an immersion heater and by
running the pump you can extract heat from the cylinder into the
heating system, mind you 3kW isn't going to do a lot in terms of
space heating... You also don't have any stored water, water supply
fails you have no water. You'll have to be quick getting to the
supermarket for bottled water as every other household will be
dashing down there to stock up as well.

If you are going to be without water for any length of time the the local
water co hands bottles of the stuff out for free. And I can only remember
once ever having no water, but that was planned as Yorkshire water were
replacing pipework in the area so I was able to fill the kettle the night
before.

--
Adam

On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 20:57:40 +0000 (GMT), Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 09:03:05 -0800 (PST), js.b1 wrote:

Southern Region
Standard 12.78p
E7 15.54p day--5.43p night, all inc Vat

I guess they do not want E7 people.

N-Power Sign Online Dual Fuel V18
Electricity - Day...... 4.98p inc VAT (*1)
Electricity - Night ...10.67p inc VAT (*1)
Gas ....................... 2.42p inc VAT (*1)

Ebico rates are not the best but you only pay for what you use, there
are no standing charges in any form. Which is the context of this
sub-thread.

Yes, I was on a lower rate but the standing charge, on low useage, was a
significant burden. Tried another supplier - that went to front-end loading
and I was always within that band.
Ebico was a tad more per unit but cheaper overall.

I must look at my bill again. I am on E7 but have much less than 30% on
night rate. I stuck with it as I've a storage heater - kept it as standby if
the combi breaks down. Can a combi 'sense' when there's no back-up?
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 23:25:19 -0000, I am not Spartacus wrote:

"MM" wrote in message
...
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

Economy 7 is utter crap. It is cheap to run but extremely inflexible. On
cold days, the storage heaters cool down in the afternoon and you have to
rely on full tariff electricity or gas to heat the house in the evening. If
you guess cold day but it's a warm day the next day, you are wasting energy
and sweltering as you can't adjust the storage heaters. I had it 20 years
ago. I would not buy any house that had Economy 7 installed.

Had the same here. 'Borrowed' a bit of insulation from the loft to insulate
the front panels and there was heat until late evening and no overheating in
the morning. My doubts were not realised, as nothing packed up or burnt out.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

PeterC wrote:
On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 20:57:40 +0000 (GMT), Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 09:03:05 -0800 (PST), js.b1 wrote:

Southern Region
Standard 12.78p
E7 15.54p day--5.43p night, all inc Vat

I guess they do not want E7 people.

N-Power Sign Online Dual Fuel V18
Electricity - Day...... 4.98p inc VAT (*1)
Electricity - Night ...10.67p inc VAT (*1)
Gas ....................... 2.42p inc VAT (*1)

Ebico rates are not the best but you only pay for what you use, there
are no standing charges in any form. Which is the context of this
sub-thread.

Yes, I was on a lower rate but the standing charge, on low useage,
was a significant burden. Tried another supplier - that went to
front-end loading and I was always within that band.
Ebico was a tad more per unit but cheaper overall.

I must look at my bill again. I am on E7 but have much less than 30%
on night rate. I stuck with it as I've a storage heater - kept it as
standby if the combi breaks down. Can a combi 'sense' when there's no
back-up?

With the money you have wasted on your electricity bill for the back-up
heating you could have switched over to a standard rate of electricity and
used the money saved to have a second combi installed as a back-up.

--
Adam

On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 08:57:50 -0000, ARWadsworth wrote:

If you are going to be without water for any length of time the the
local water co hands bottles of the stuff out for free.

Eventually. Or they provide a bowser/stand pipe, again eventually.

And I can only remember once ever having no water, but that was planned
...

When I was a kid the water going off was not that often, two or three
year gaps but did happen. Normally due to bursts in the cast iron
mains.

replacing pipework in the area so I was able to fill the kettle the
night before.

A kettle full does your morning coffee but only does one lot of
washing up and one one flush of the loo (with the washing up water).
OK you can "If it's yellow let it mellow" but the "If it's brown,
flush it down" with a family becomes a problem without half a bucket
of water each time.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 09:22:08 -0000, ARWadsworth wrote:

I must look at my bill again. I am on E7 but have much less than
30%
on night rate. I stuck with it as I've a storage heater - kept it
as
standby if the combi breaks down. Can a combi 'sense' when there's
no
back-up?

With the money you have wasted on your electricity bill for the back-up
heating you could have switched over to a standard rate of electricity
and used the money saved to have a second combi installed as a back-up.

Possibly not that good. B-) But being on E7 unless you really are
using a good deal of cheap rate lecky is daft. E7 with a (singular)
storage heater only switched on if/when the primary heating fails
does not make economic sense. E7 with a single storage heater in
normal use is almost certainly more expensive than a decent normal
tarrif over a year.

--
Cheers
Dave.

MM wrote:

I was thinking more of storing the cheap
power (batteries) for release throughout the day, e.g. for running the
computer

Sorry, I meant to add, the easiest way to get a few hours battery driven
use of a PC during the day would be a laptop charged overnight, but I
wouldn't get E7 just to allow that.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 08:57:50 -0000, ARWadsworth wrote:

If you are going to be without water for any length of time the the
local water co hands bottles of the stuff out for free.

Eventually. Or they provide a bowser/stand pipe, again eventually.

And I can only remember once ever having no water, but that was
planned ...

When I was a kid the water going off was not that often, two or three
year gaps but did happen. Normally due to bursts in the cast iron
mains.

replacing pipework in the area so I was able to fill the kettle the
night before.

A kettle full does your morning coffee but only does one lot of
washing up and one one flush of the loo (with the washing up water).
OK you can "If it's yellow let it mellow" but the "If it's brown,
flush it down" with a family becomes a problem without half a bucket
of water each time.

Indeed it would be a problem. However I could use the stored water from the
waterbutt to flush a toilet if needed (well not in this weather). I suspect
I would probably fill a large container up with water from a mates house or
stop at a mates house if the water was off for a very long time.

--
Adam

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...
PeterC wrote:
On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 20:57:40 +0000 (GMT), Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 09:03:05 -0800 (PST), js.b1 wrote:

Southern Region
Standard 12.78p
E7 15.54p day--5.43p night, all inc Vat

I guess they do not want E7 people.

N-Power Sign Online Dual Fuel V18
Electricity - Day...... 4.98p inc VAT (*1)
Electricity - Night ...10.67p inc VAT (*1)
Gas ....................... 2.42p inc VAT (*1)

Ebico rates are not the best but you only pay for what you use, there
are no standing charges in any form. Which is the context of this
sub-thread.

Yes, I was on a lower rate but the standing charge, on low useage,
was a significant burden. Tried another supplier - that went to
front-end loading and I was always within that band.
Ebico was a tad more per unit but cheaper overall.

I must look at my bill again. I am on E7 but have much less than 30%
on night rate. I stuck with it as I've a storage heater - kept it as
standby if the combi breaks down. Can a combi 'sense' when there's no
back-up?

With the money you have wasted on your electricity bill for the back-up
heating you could have switched over to a standard rate of electricity and
used the money saved to have a second combi installed as a back-up.

--
Adam


I take readings from the meters every week and run a spreadsheet of
weekly/montly/annual cost - our E7 use (washing machine diswasher + assorted
backup servers etc) is about 30% - I regularly (weekly) compare cost
against the cheapest non e7 tariff and tbh there is not much in it - some
months (summer) would save a £1 (a month) but in winter months it would cost
more on a non e7 tariff by about £2/month - we have one 16 yo all the time
and 3 under 12's 6 nights out of 14 so one load of washing and dishwasher
every night at least - rarely use the tumble dryer

BartC wrote:

"Ret." wrote in message
...

[snip]

There are other benefits as well. With our old boiler, first thing in the
morning when the timer kicked in, the heat produced would be divided
between heating the water in the tank and heating the water in the
radiators. With our combi, all the heat goes to the radiators and so the
house heats up a lot faster for when we get out of bed. We also have
piping hot water whenever we want it - and it never runs out! If we have
guests we can all have a shower or bath one after the other without the
water starting to run cold. I'm a complete convert!

Except when the hot water is working, the heating is off (depending on the
boiler).

Yes, but this is normally for just a few minutes while the hot water is
being delivered and not likely to have much effect on room temperature,
unless people are in the habit of spending half an hour under the shower.

--
Mike Clarke

Maria wrote:
On 12/7/2010 5:58 PM, Ret. wrote:
ARWadsworth wrote:
Ret. wrote:
Maria wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:42 PM, MM wrote:
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption
(11.51p a unit in my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate
(5.06p), i.e. a lot cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter and
what could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night
storage heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled
electric radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill
off and they are very effective. I could get more.

I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil
prices and trying to look for alternative methods of heating for
the future, at least until I can eventually move to a house with
a chimney and start burning wood.


Do *not* have economy 7 unless you have storage heaters - your day
rate is massive.
Why not get a chimney built? Be warned - even solid fuels are
almost as expensive these days.

I'm fortunate to be on mains gas. Two years ago I had my
conventional (30 years old!) gas boiler replaced with a modern
Worcester Bosch condensing combi. The old hot water tank has gone
(and the airing cupboard in the bathroom replaced with a walk-in
shower) as has all the tanks and pipework in the loft.

I have been astonished at how much less gas we are now using.
Despite having reduced my monthly direct debit gas payment, I have
still just received a £145.00 refund because a positive balance
had built up. Only heating water when you actually turn on a hot tap -
rather
than heating a tank-full which you may never use, makes all the
difference - as does using a more efficient boiler for the central
heating. We are over the moon at the savings we have made in fuel costs
the
past two years.

Be carefull Kev. You will have half of uk.d-i-y telling you that
combi boilers are crap and that you will never get financial
payback for your new boiler.

TBH, a few years ago and I was arguing that I wouldn't touch a combi
with a barge-pole. The people I knew who had one never ceased
complaining about the lukewarm water from the hot tap - and the fact
that it took two hours to fill a bath.

When I was considering replacing the boiler I was still of that
opinion - and planning on having a condensing non-combi put in. It
was only my next door neighbour (and a few posters on uk.diy)
telling me that new combis were a huge improvement on old ones, that
persuaded me to change my mind. We have no regrets whatsoever. There
is ample hot water and it feeds our shower without the need for
pumps. It does take a little longer to fill the bath than it did
before - but not significantly longer - and so long as you are aware
of the fact and start the bath running in plenty of time - it's just
not an issue. The cost saving has been significant for us and, as our old
boiler
was on its last legs anyway - the replacement cost was necessary.

There are other benefits as well. With our old boiler, first thing in
the morning when the timer kicked in, the heat produced would be
divided between heating the water in the tank and heating the water
in the radiators. With our combi, all the heat goes to the radiators
and so the house heats up a lot faster for when we get out of bed.
We also have piping hot water whenever we want it - and it never
runs out! If we have guests we can all have a shower or bath one
after the other without the water starting to run cold. I'm a
complete convert!

Mine doesn't heat the water up very well at all.
I've had two previously - a Potterton with several circuit boards ,
one of which would regularly pop, costing around 120 + labour a time,
and the other (can't remember what it was) which ate pumps for a
living at 95 quid + labour every time.
The one I have now is an Isar, and backfires when you are least
expecting it. Like being shot at in the middle of the night.

I think most of the early combis were poor - both on reliability, and on the
ability to heat water adequately as it flowed through the heat exchanger.
Newer combis have far more efficient heat exchangers - and the condensing
boilers are even more efficient.
Also, when people are changing a boiler it becomes a 'distress purchase' and
they tend to go for the cheapest that is suitable - and hence they end up
with one that is only just adequate in terms of power.

The recommended 'power' for my house was 27/28kw - but I went for a 30kw CDi
which will heat 13.1 litres of water per minute at a 35 degree temperature
rise. It has proven to be excellent and, so far, all my concerns about
adequacy have been unfounded. The two thermostats on the boiler (one for hot
water and one for heating) are both set at about 1/3rd up from minimum (the
'economy' settings) - and yet the rads get too hot to touch and the water
from the taps is piping hot.

The boiler is now 2.5 years old and has been 100% reliable so far. Obviously
I cannot tell how reliable it will be in the future - but Worcester Bosch do
have one of the best reputations in the business.

--
Kev

BartC wrote:
"Ret." wrote in message
...


TBH, a few years ago and I was arguing that I wouldn't touch a combi
with a barge-pole. The people I knew who had one never ceased
complaining about the lukewarm water from the hot tap - and the fact
that it took two hours to fill a bath.

The cost saving has been significant for us and, as our old boiler
was on its last legs anyway - the replacement cost was necessary.

There are other benefits as well. With our old boiler, first thing
in the morning when the timer kicked in, the heat produced would be
divided between heating the water in the tank and heating the water
in the radiators. With our combi, all the heat goes to the radiators
and so the house heats up a lot faster for when we get out of bed.
We also have piping hot water whenever we want it - and it never
runs out! If we have guests we can all have a shower or bath one
after the other without the water starting to run cold. I'm a
complete convert!

Except when the hot water is working, the heating is off (depending
on the boiler).

Indeed - but for how long do you have a hot tap running? The effect upon
the house heating is minimal in practice - particularly if your house, like
mine, is well insulated.


I haven't had much luck with combi boilers. I inherited an old one
when I bought a house, which blew up, then over the course of nine
years installed *two* new combis, always going wrong (mostly due to
sludge in the system), and spending a fortune on successive 'CH
engineers' who hadn't a clue what they were doing.

All combi boiler manufacturers insist on a system flush before their boilers
are installed. Very few installers will actually do it unless you are
standing over them and pointing out that they haven't done it (which
happened in my case). It takes time to run the system with a flushing agent
in it for sufficiently long period to ensure most of the sludge is
circulating and washed out. All they want to do is get your new boiler in
and get on to the next job.

I've been renting recently and have an average of one problem a year,
fortunately the owner took care of it.

I wish I just had one of those back boilers, with gravity fed hot
water, and an unpressurised CH system that is so easy (and less
dangerous) to mess about with. Those will work for decades. There is
no "PCB" that will suddenly decide the boiler shouldn't operate. Or
one of those wall-mounted hot water boilers: open a hot water tap,
and the gas ignites and gives you hot water *every time*; if there is
a gas and water supply (and the pilot is lit), it will work. No
electronics.

But nowhere near as efficient, or as cheap to run, as a modern, good
quality, combi!

--
Kev

On 12/8/2010 9:59 AM, Ret. wrote:
Maria wrote:
On 12/7/2010 5:58 PM, Ret. wrote:
ARWadsworth wrote:
Ret. wrote:
Maria wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:42 PM, MM wrote:
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption
(11.51p a unit in my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate
(5.06p), i.e. a lot cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter and
what could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night
storage heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled
electric radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill
off and they are very effective. I could get more.

I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil
prices and trying to look for alternative methods of heating for
the future, at least until I can eventually move to a house with
a chimney and start burning wood.


Do *not* have economy 7 unless you have storage heaters - your day
rate is massive.
Why not get a chimney built? Be warned - even solid fuels are
almost as expensive these days.

I'm fortunate to be on mains gas. Two years ago I had my
conventional (30 years old!) gas boiler replaced with a modern
Worcester Bosch condensing combi. The old hot water tank has gone
(and the airing cupboard in the bathroom replaced with a walk-in
shower) as has all the tanks and pipework in the loft.

I have been astonished at how much less gas we are now using.
Despite having reduced my monthly direct debit gas payment, I have
still just received a £145.00 refund because a positive balance
had built up. Only heating water when you actually turn on a hot
tap - rather
than heating a tank-full which you may never use, makes all the
difference - as does using a more efficient boiler for the central
heating. We are over the moon at the savings we have made in fuel
costs the
past two years.

Be carefull Kev. You will have half of uk.d-i-y telling you that
combi boilers are crap and that you will never get financial
payback for your new boiler.

TBH, a few years ago and I was arguing that I wouldn't touch a combi
with a barge-pole. The people I knew who had one never ceased
complaining about the lukewarm water from the hot tap - and the fact
that it took two hours to fill a bath.

When I was considering replacing the boiler I was still of that
opinion - and planning on having a condensing non-combi put in. It
was only my next door neighbour (and a few posters on uk.diy)
telling me that new combis were a huge improvement on old ones, that
persuaded me to change my mind. We have no regrets whatsoever. There
is ample hot water and it feeds our shower without the need for
pumps. It does take a little longer to fill the bath than it did
before - but not significantly longer - and so long as you are aware
of the fact and start the bath running in plenty of time - it's just
not an issue. The cost saving has been significant for us and, as our
old boiler
was on its last legs anyway - the replacement cost was necessary.

There are other benefits as well. With our old boiler, first thing in
the morning when the timer kicked in, the heat produced would be
divided between heating the water in the tank and heating the water
in the radiators. With our combi, all the heat goes to the radiators
and so the house heats up a lot faster for when we get out of bed.
We also have piping hot water whenever we want it - and it never
runs out! If we have guests we can all have a shower or bath one
after the other without the water starting to run cold. I'm a
complete convert!

Mine doesn't heat the water up very well at all.
I've had two previously - a Potterton with several circuit boards ,
one of which would regularly pop, costing around 120 + labour a time,
and the other (can't remember what it was) which ate pumps for a
living at 95 quid + labour every time.
The one I have now is an Isar, and backfires when you are least
expecting it. Like being shot at in the middle of the night.

I think most of the early combis were poor - both on reliability, and on
the ability to heat water adequately as it flowed through the heat
exchanger. Newer combis have far more efficient heat exchangers - and
the condensing boilers are even more efficient.
Also, when people are changing a boiler it becomes a 'distress purchase'
and they tend to go for the cheapest that is suitable - and hence they
end up with one that is only just adequate in terms of power.

The recommended 'power' for my house was 27/28kw - but I went for a 30kw
CDi which will heat 13.1 litres of water per minute at a 35 degree
temperature rise. It has proven to be excellent and, so far, all my
concerns about adequacy have been unfounded. The two thermostats on the
boiler (one for hot water and one for heating) are both set at about
1/3rd up from minimum (the 'economy' settings) - and yet the rads get
too hot to touch and the water from the taps is piping hot.

The boiler is now 2.5 years old and has been 100% reliable so far.
Obviously I cannot tell how reliable it will be in the future - but
Worcester Bosch do have one of the best reputations in the business.


Mine's brand new - I didn't have a choice about the make as it was
installed under the government's Warm Front scheme.
After it was installed, I looked up the boiler and it's about 5 from the
bottom on the list of reliability - there are numerous threads on forums
about the scheme, and it seems that the government bought a job lot of
cheap boilers to use on this scheme.
It might have been better to give us a voucher to use to choose (our let
our plumber choose) which boiler to install, and possibly would have
been cheaper also.

I am not Spartacus wrote:
"MM" wrote in message
...
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption
(11.51p a unit in my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate
(5.06p), i.e. a lot cheaper.

Economy 7 is utter crap. It is cheap to run but extremely
inflexible. On cold days, the storage heaters cool down in the
afternoon and you have to rely on full tariff electricity or gas to
heat the house in the evening. If you guess cold day but it's a warm
day the next day, you are wasting energy and sweltering as you can't
adjust the storage heaters. I had it 20 years ago. I would not buy
any house that had Economy 7 installed.

I once lived in a house that had storage radiators. They were utterly
utterly useless - particularly in Spring and Autumn when temperatures tend
to fluctuate considerably.

They heat up overnight - and so if the next day is mild, you are having to
throw the windows open to release some of the heat because the house is so
hot. They tend to have lost most of their heat by the middle of the
afternoon - and so you then have to rely on additional (usually expensive)
heat sources to keep the house warm for the rest of the afternoon and
evening. For a couple that both work and are out of the house for most of
the day - they are simply a nonsense because the house is nice and warm
while they are out - and not warm enough when they get back home.

--
Kev

On 08/12/2010 10:05, Ret. wrote:
BartC wrote:
"Ret." wrote in message
...


TBH, a few years ago and I was arguing that I wouldn't touch a combi
with a barge-pole. The people I knew who had one never ceased
complaining about the lukewarm water from the hot tap - and the fact
that it took two hours to fill a bath.

The cost saving has been significant for us and, as our old boiler
was on its last legs anyway - the replacement cost was necessary.

There are other benefits as well. With our old boiler, first thing
in the morning when the timer kicked in, the heat produced would be
divided between heating the water in the tank and heating the water
in the radiators. With our combi, all the heat goes to the radiators
and so the house heats up a lot faster for when we get out of bed.
We also have piping hot water whenever we want it - and it never
runs out! If we have guests we can all have a shower or bath one
after the other without the water starting to run cold. I'm a
complete convert!

Except when the hot water is working, the heating is off (depending
on the boiler).

Indeed - but for how long do you have a hot tap running? The effect upon
the house heating is minimal in practice - particularly if your house,
like mine, is well insulated.


I haven't had much luck with combi boilers. I inherited an old one
when I bought a house, which blew up, then over the course of nine
years installed *two* new combis, always going wrong (mostly due to
sludge in the system), and spending a fortune on successive 'CH
engineers' who hadn't a clue what they were doing.

All combi boiler manufacturers insist on a system flush before their
boilers are installed. Very few installers will actually do it unless
you are standing over them and pointing out that they haven't done it
(which happened in my case). It takes time to run the system with a
flushing agent in it for sufficiently long period to ensure most of the
sludge is circulating and washed out. All they want to do is get your
new boiler in and get on to the next job.

I've been renting recently and have an average of one problem a year,
fortunately the owner took care of it.

I wish I just had one of those back boilers, with gravity fed hot
water, and an unpressurised CH system that is so easy (and less
dangerous) to mess about with. Those will work for decades. There is
no "PCB" that will suddenly decide the boiler shouldn't operate. Or
one of those wall-mounted hot water boilers: open a hot water tap,
and the gas ignites and gives you hot water *every time*; if there is
a gas and water supply (and the pilot is lit), it will work. No
electronics.

But nowhere near as efficient, or as cheap to run, as a modern, good
quality, combi!



Yup, especially the condensing types.

--
Bod

Maria wrote:
On 12/8/2010 9:59 AM, Ret. wrote:
Maria wrote:
On 12/7/2010 5:58 PM, Ret. wrote:
ARWadsworth wrote:
Ret. wrote:
Maria wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:42 PM, MM wrote:
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption
(11.51p a unit in my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate
(5.06p), i.e. a lot cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter
and what could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no
night storage heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have
oil-filled electric radiators for a couple of rooms just to
take the chill off and they are very effective. I could get
more. I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil
prices and trying to look for alternative methods of heating
for the future, at least until I can eventually move to a
house with a chimney and start burning wood.


Do *not* have economy 7 unless you have storage heaters - your
day rate is massive.
Why not get a chimney built? Be warned - even solid fuels are
almost as expensive these days.

I'm fortunate to be on mains gas. Two years ago I had my
conventional (30 years old!) gas boiler replaced with a modern
Worcester Bosch condensing combi. The old hot water tank has gone
(and the airing cupboard in the bathroom replaced with a walk-in
shower) as has all the tanks and pipework in the loft.

I have been astonished at how much less gas we are now using.
Despite having reduced my monthly direct debit gas payment, I
have still just received a £145.00 refund because a positive
balance had built up. Only heating water when you actually turn
on a hot tap - rather
than heating a tank-full which you may never use, makes all the
difference - as does using a more efficient boiler for the
central heating. We are over the moon at the savings we have
made in fuel costs the
past two years.

Be carefull Kev. You will have half of uk.d-i-y telling you that
combi boilers are crap and that you will never get financial
payback for your new boiler.

TBH, a few years ago and I was arguing that I wouldn't touch a
combi with a barge-pole. The people I knew who had one never ceased
complaining about the lukewarm water from the hot tap - and the
fact that it took two hours to fill a bath.

When I was considering replacing the boiler I was still of that
opinion - and planning on having a condensing non-combi put in. It
was only my next door neighbour (and a few posters on uk.diy)
telling me that new combis were a huge improvement on old ones,
that persuaded me to change my mind. We have no regrets
whatsoever. There is ample hot water and it feeds our shower
without the need for pumps. It does take a little longer to fill
the bath than it did before - but not significantly longer - and
so long as you are aware of the fact and start the bath running in
plenty of time - it's just not an issue. The cost saving has been
significant for us and, as our old boiler
was on its last legs anyway - the replacement cost was necessary.

There are other benefits as well. With our old boiler, first thing
in the morning when the timer kicked in, the heat produced would be
divided between heating the water in the tank and heating the water
in the radiators. With our combi, all the heat goes to the
radiators and so the house heats up a lot faster for when we get
out of bed. We also have piping hot water whenever we want it -
and it never runs out! If we have guests we can all have a shower
or bath one after the other without the water starting to run
cold. I'm a complete convert!

Mine doesn't heat the water up very well at all.
I've had two previously - a Potterton with several circuit boards ,
one of which would regularly pop, costing around 120 + labour a
time, and the other (can't remember what it was) which ate pumps
for a living at 95 quid + labour every time.
The one I have now is an Isar, and backfires when you are least
expecting it. Like being shot at in the middle of the night.

I think most of the early combis were poor - both on reliability,
and on the ability to heat water adequately as it flowed through the
heat exchanger. Newer combis have far more efficient heat exchangers
- and the condensing boilers are even more efficient.
Also, when people are changing a boiler it becomes a 'distress
purchase' and they tend to go for the cheapest that is suitable -
and hence they end up with one that is only just adequate in terms
of power. The recommended 'power' for my house was 27/28kw - but I went
for a
30kw CDi which will heat 13.1 litres of water per minute at a 35
degree temperature rise. It has proven to be excellent and, so far,
all my concerns about adequacy have been unfounded. The two
thermostats on the boiler (one for hot water and one for heating)
are both set at about 1/3rd up from minimum (the 'economy' settings)
- and yet the rads get too hot to touch and the water from the taps
is piping hot. The boiler is now 2.5 years old and has been 100% reliable
so far.
Obviously I cannot tell how reliable it will be in the future - but
Worcester Bosch do have one of the best reputations in the business.


Mine's brand new - I didn't have a choice about the make as it was
installed under the government's Warm Front scheme.
After it was installed, I looked up the boiler and it's about 5 from
the bottom on the list of reliability - there are numerous threads on
forums about the scheme, and it seems that the government bought a
job lot of cheap boilers to use on this scheme.
It might have been better to give us a voucher to use to choose (our
let our plumber choose) which boiler to install, and possibly would
have been cheaper also.

Absolutely. I spoke to several plumbers before deciding on our boiler.
Worcester Bosch and Vaillant were the two makes most frequently recommended
for reliability.

--
Kev

On 08/12/2010 in message Ret.
wrote:

I once lived in a house that had storage radiators. They were utterly
utterly useless - particularly in Spring and Autumn when temperatures tend
to fluctuate considerably.

They heat up overnight - and so if the next day is mild, you are having to
throw the windows open to release some of the heat because the house is so
hot. They tend to have lost most of their heat by the middle of the
afternoon - and so you then have to rely on additional (usually expensive)
heat sources to keep the house warm for the rest of the afternoon and
evening. For a couple that both work and are out of the house for most of
the day - they are simply a nonsense because the house is nice and warm
while they are out - and not warm enough when they get back home.

I'd be very interested to have some suggestions on alternatives.
I'm in a reasonably well insulated mid-terrace house with E7 and just 2
storage heaters - 1 in the hall and 1 in the lounge. I'm retired so here
all the time, no statistics yet as I moved in a month ago today.
Electric is the only option, no gas and nowhere for an oil tank.
The 2 bedrooms have electric panel heaters, I turn the one in my bedroom
on an hour before bedtime and turn the electric blanket on at the same
time. I turn the heater off when I go to bed and just get dressed PDQ each
morning.
Would I be better off with non storage heaters on a normal tariff and just
turn them on when needed?

--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
All those who believe in psychokinesis raise my hand.

On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:09:11 +0000, Maria wrote:

It might have been better to give us a voucher to use to choose (our let
our plumber choose) which boiler to install, and possibly would have
been cheaper also.

Agreed, a voucher for x hundred quid to be "spent" with the plumber
of your choice against the cost of a suitable boiler and associated
works.

Many tales of woe about slapdash, shoddy, work from Warm Front
installers. I suspect they get paid a (lowish) flate rate per install
to include parts and labour. It is therefore in their interests to
get the cheapest boiler that will meet HMG's spec and install it as
quickly as they possibly can (surface running pipes etc).

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 12/8/2010 10:38 AM, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:09:11 +0000, Maria wrote:

It might have been better to give us a voucher to use to choose (our let
our plumber choose) which boiler to install, and possibly would have
been cheaper also.

Agreed, a voucher for x hundred quid to be "spent" with the plumber
of your choice against the cost of a suitable boiler and associated
works.

Many tales of woe about slapdash, shoddy, work from Warm Front
installers. I suspect they get paid a (lowish) flate rate per install
to include parts and labour. It is therefore in their interests to
get the cheapest boiler that will meet HMG's spec and install it as
quickly as they possibly can (surface running pipes etc).


You should see my boiler installation! No way I can hide the extensive
pipework. I don't know what I'm going to do with it except perhaps cover
it with a fancy curtain.

Apparently the work for my house was costed at 2.5k - that is an Isar
boiler, 6 new rads installed on existing pipework. Seems a bit expensive
to me, but hey. There are rules about not hiding pipework, even if the
installee offers some extra money - makes the job quicker, and Warm
Front installations is all this plumber does.
The boiler pressure keeps dropping to under 1 Bar over a week, so
perhaps there is a leak somewhere, but the one year check showed they
weren't interested.

Having said all that, I am grateful for it - we went all last winter
without heating or hot water and it wasn't funny in all that freezing
weather we had, with 5 children in the house.
I have paid twice previously for new boiler/installation of entire
heating system (in my last house), but we just aren't able to afford it
anymore.

Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 08/12/2010 in message
Ret. wrote:

I once lived in a house that had storage radiators. They were utterly
utterly useless - particularly in Spring and Autumn when
temperatures tend to fluctuate considerably.

They heat up overnight - and so if the next day is mild, you are
having to throw the windows open to release some of the heat because
the house is so hot. They tend to have lost most of their heat by
the middle of the afternoon - and so you then have to rely on
additional (usually expensive) heat sources to keep the house warm
for the rest of the afternoon and evening. For a couple that both
work and are out of the house for most of the day - they are simply
a nonsense because the house is nice and warm while they are out -
and not warm enough when they get back home.

I'd be very interested to have some suggestions on alternatives.
I'm in a reasonably well insulated mid-terrace house with E7 and just
2 storage heaters - 1 in the hall and 1 in the lounge. I'm retired so
here all the time, no statistics yet as I moved in a month ago today.
Electric is the only option, no gas and nowhere for an oil tank.
The 2 bedrooms have electric panel heaters, I turn the one in my
bedroom on an hour before bedtime and turn the electric blanket on at
the same time. I turn the heater off when I go to bed and just get
dressed PDQ each morning.
Would I be better off with non storage heaters on a normal tariff and
just turn them on when needed?

I think you need to speak to a heating engineer on what are your best
options. It is possible, of course, to run a gas system off propane tanks -
but I have no idea of the cost of propane whole-house heating.

--
Kev

On 8 Dec 2010 10:30:05 GMT, Jeff Gaines wrote:
I'd be very interested to have some suggestions on alternatives.
I'm in a reasonably well insulated mid-terrace house with E7 and just 2
storage heaters
snip
Electric is the only option, no gas and nowhere for an oil tank.

Well that sums it up really without mains gas or space for an oil/gas
tank. You are stuck with electricity.

Would I be better off with non storage heaters on a normal tariff and
just turn them on when needed?

Probably not as you are home most of the time so a heater would be on
most of the time...

Might be worth taking weekly meter readings and see how much of each
day/night energy you are using. Having real usage figures is the only
way to be sure of getting the best deal. Bear in mind that with the
current cold weather usage will be high, so be a bit cautious about
basing tariff decisions on just a week or threes consumption. Your
day use probably won't vary much winter/summer, perhaps a kw or so
per day, but the night use will go from nothing to lots...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 09:22:08 -0000, ARWadsworth wrote:

I must look at my bill again. I am on E7 but have much less than
30%
on night rate. I stuck with it as I've a storage heater - kept it
as
standby if the combi breaks down. Can a combi 'sense' when there's
no
back-up?

With the money you have wasted on your electricity bill for the
back-up heating you could have switched over to a standard rate of
electricity and used the money saved to have a second combi
installed as a back-up.

Possibly not that good. B-)

It would keep Drivel happy.

--
Adam

On 8 Dec 2010 10:49:08 GMT, Huge wrote:


They heat up overnight - and so if the next day is mild, you are
having
to throw the windows open to release some of the heat because the
house
is so hot. They tend to have lost most of their heat by the
middle of
the afternoon - and so you then have to rely on additional
(usually
expensive) heat sources to keep the house warm for the rest of the

afternoon and evening. For a couple that both work and are out of
the
house for most of the day - they are simply a nonsense because the

house is nice and warm while they are out - and not warm enough
when
they get back home.

Not often I completely agree with you, Kev, but I do here. I once rented
a flat with storage radiators, which induced in me a lifelong loathing
of the damn things for the very reasons you state.

Same here but these days I think you can get storage heaters that
have far better controls. ie more than a bimetal strip activated vent
and manual heat in/out knobs. Things like external thermostats,
timers, fan assisted boost, etc now where does one go these days to
see or find out proper information about these things. In the olde
dayes one would go to your local electricity showroom but they don't
exist anymore...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 8 Dec 2010 10:49:08 GMT, Huge wrote:

They heat up overnight - and so if the next day is mild, you are having to
throw the windows open to release some of the heat because the house is so
hot. They tend to have lost most of their heat by the middle of the
afternoon - and so you then have to rely on additional (usually expensive)
heat sources to keep the house warm for the rest of the afternoon and
evening. For a couple that both work and are out of the house for most of
the day - they are simply a nonsense because the house is nice and warm
while they are out - and not warm enough when they get back home.

Not often I completely agree with you, Kev, but I do here. I once rented
a flat with storage radiators, which induced in me a lifelong loathing
of the damn things for the very reasons you state.

And if I looked at a house that had storage radiators, I'd want the price
reduced by the amount required to tear them out and put a proper heating
system in.

I've never lived in a house with storage heaters, but what Kev says
about them is very logical and I can believe it 100%. A very stupid
idea IMHO.

The best use of Economy 7 would probably be to use it to charge up
batteries overnight, and then use the batteries to supply power as and
when required during the day. Unfortunately, while such an
installation is perfectly possible, the capital cost would be pretty
horrendous, and I doubt you would recoup the cost in saved electric
bills over the lifetime of the installation.

Of course, if you *did* have such an installation, you could also use
other sources to charge the batteries such as wind and solar power.
My gut feeling is that you would still not succeed in saving anything
over the lifetime of the installation, but I have not worked the
numbers.

When cheap high-density batteries are invented, it could however be a
very attractive way to go.

--
Cynic

On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 22:30:58 -0000, "tim...."
wrote:


"AlanG" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 16:22:53 -0000, "tim...."
wrote:




Yes we had that problem. There was a night meter already installed
when we bough this place. We were paying double the normal day rate
for years until we found out what the actual rates were. They didn't
take the extra meter out just added the readings together.

Welcome to rip off Britain.


How is you failing to check the rate stated on your bill with the freely
available rates elsewhere, a rip-off?

Because until a couple of years ago I wasn't aware there was a
difference between the day rates and thus had no reason to check them.
I have never had E7 so when we signed up we told them we had two
meters. Nobody mentioned different rates. I didn't find out until
someone showed me their bill and I noticed the difference

I still don't see how this is a rip off.

Cos they didn't tell me about the alternatives

I can assure you, as someone who previous lived in a property that only had
electric heating, that the E7 tariff saves some people a lot of money, so it
is hardly a "scam" on the part of the leccy company that it is available.


It is when you don't use it and it is obvious from the bills that you
dont

On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 23:49:37 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:
Then of course there is huge spread of costs just on standard tarrifs
let alone involving any discounts or deals. A little while ago when
doing my annualish check of prices I was staggered to see electricty
tarrifs with unit costs not far short of 20p, I think I was paying about
7p/unit (DD, Paperless etc etc) at the time ...

Ouch - 20 seems insane.

For some "overseas comparison", ours averages out to around 6.75 cents/
kWH each month - so around 4.5p. I'm not yet awake enough this morning to
try and tweak that as a proportion of average income, which would
probably paint a fairer picture :-)

cheers

Jules

"Cynic" wrote in message
news:4cff7a2d.6743843@localhost...

The best use of Economy 7 would probably be to use it to charge up
batteries overnight, and then use the batteries to supply power as and
when required during the day. Unfortunately, while such an
installation is perfectly possible, the capital cost would be pretty
horrendous, and I doubt you would recoup the cost in saved electric
bills over the lifetime of the installation.

It would have to be a pretty big battery, to deliver several thousand watts
over 16 hours or so. Perhaps you can convert the garage into one giant
battery.

Off-peak electricity might be best used to pump water uphill, then use that
to drive a hydro-electric unit. But there are a few problems with domestic
use (such as having a big enough hill in the garden).

--
bartc

On Dec 7, 7:38*pm, "Ret." wrote:
harry wrote:
On Dec 7, 5:58 pm, "Ret." wrote:
ARWadsworth wrote:
Ret. wrote:
Maria wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:42 PM, MM wrote:
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption
(11.51p a unit in my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate
(5.06p), i.e. a lot cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter and
what could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night
storage heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled
electric radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill
off and they are very effective. I could get more.

I'm just thinking about the horrendous rise in domestic oil
prices and trying to look for alternative methods of heating for
the future, at least until I can eventually move to a house with
a chimney and start burning wood.

Do *not* have economy 7 unless you have storage heaters - your day
rate is massive.
Why not get a chimney built? Be warned - even solid fuels are
almost as expensive these days.

I'm fortunate to be on mains gas. Two years ago I had my
conventional (30 years old!) gas boiler replaced with a modern
Worcester Bosch condensing combi. The old hot water tank has gone
(and the airing cupboard in the bathroom replaced with a walk-in
shower) as has all the tanks and pipework in the loft.

I have been astonished at how much less gas we are now using.
Despite having reduced my monthly direct debit gas payment, I have
still just received a 145.00 refund because a positive balance had
built up.

Only heating water when you actually turn on a hot tap - rather
than heating a tank-full which you may never use, makes all the
difference - as does using a more efficient boiler for the central
heating.

We are over the moon at the savings we have made in fuel costs the
past two years.

Be carefull Kev. You will have half of uk.d-i-y telling you that
combi boilers are crap and that you will never get financial
payback for your new boiler.

TBH, a few years ago and I was arguing that I wouldn't touch a combi
with a barge-pole. The people I knew who had one never ceased
complaining about the lukewarm water from the hot tap - and the fact
that it took two hours to fill a bath.

When I was considering replacing the boiler I was still of that
opinion - and planning on having a condensing non-combi put in. It
was only my next door neighbour (and a few posters on uk.diy)
telling me that new combis were a huge improvement on old ones, that
persuaded me to change my mind. We have no regrets whatsoever. There
is ample hot water and it feeds our shower without the need for
pumps. It does take a little longer to fill the bath than it did
before - but not significantly longer - and so long as you are aware
of the fact and start the bath running in plenty of time - it's just
not an issue.

The cost saving has been significant for us and, as our old boiler
was on its last legs anyway - the replacement cost was necessary.

There are other benefits as well. With our old boiler, first thing
in the morning when the timer kicked in, the heat produced would be
divided between heating the water in the tank and heating the water
in the radiators. With our combi, all the heat goes to the radiators
and so the house heats up a lot faster for when we get out of bed.
We also have piping hot water whenever we want it - and it never
runs out! If we have guests we can all have a shower or bath one
after the other without the water starting to run cold. I'm a
complete convert!

--
Kev- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The problem is *they are a complex beast. *Hence less reliable. *And
the heat exchanger scale up .

They are a bit more complex than a standard boiler - but not a lot. I can't
see why the heat exchanger in a combi should scale up any more than the heat
exchanger in any boiler. As I live in a very soft water area, scaling is not
an issue for me anyway (I never have to descale my kettle for example).

--
Kev- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The scale on electric elements tends to be shattered off from time
time with the expansion. This is unfortunately not so with plate heat
exchanger. I hear some have been designed with a "non-stick" finish.
Dunno how effective it is.
The reason they scale up more than a boiler is that it's new water
coming in. The boiler has the same stuff going round and round.

On Dec 7, 7:56*pm, (Cynic) wrote:
On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 09:26:29 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

My heating bill is zero. *I have 600mm of insulation everywhere and
quadruple glazing. I have recently (and unusually) had to light my
small woodburning stove. I burn scrap timber, looted from skips and my
builder's merchant who is glad to be rid of it. *Pallets for example
are to be had for free in many places.

With that much insulation you could save on the wood. *Simply invite a
couple of friends around to watch telly with you. *Each person will
produce around 104 watts of heat while sitting down and relaxing.

Get a few exercise bikes in the room and you could increase it to
around 500W per person! *You could even charge for the use of your
"gym".

--
Cynic

Are you volunteering? You could be my friend. Heh Heh.
I think 500W is a bit optimistic.
I have a 42" TV. under normal conditions it does OK on it's own. Plus
the freezer and fridge.
I also have 100mm insulated shutters on the windows. We open them in
the day (or some of them) that lets a lot of heat escape too.

On Dec 7, 10:30*pm, "tim...." wrote:
"AlanG" wrote in message

...





On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 16:22:53 -0000, "tim...."
wrote:

"AlanG" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 13:15:32 +0000, Maria wrote:

On 12/7/2010 12:47 PM, tim.... wrote:
*wrote in message
om...
I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared
Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit
in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

So I was wondering, does it cost to have an additional meter

Nothing just to change the meter.

and what
could I do with the cheaper electricity? I have no night storage
heaters. Are they worth getting? I do have oil-filled electric
radiators for a couple of rooms just to take the chill off and they
are very effective. I could get more.

E7 is only of any use to you if you change at least 30% of your
electricity
usage to overnight.

Using it for a heating source that is on 24/7 will not reduce your
bills.

Not only will it not reduce the bills, it might send them sky high. This
is what was making my bill so enormous.

Yes we had that problem. There was a night meter already installed
when we bough this place. We were paying double the normal day rate
for years until we found out what the actual rates were. They didn't
take the extra meter out just added the readings together.

Welcome to rip off Britain.

How is you failing to check the rate stated on your bill with the freely
available rates elsewhere, a rip-off?

Because until a couple of years ago I wasn't aware there was a
difference between the day rates and thus had no reason to check them.
I have never had E7 so when we signed up we told them we had two
meters. Nobody mentioned different rates. I didn't find out until
someone showed me their bill and I noticed the difference

I still don't see how this is a rip off.

I can assure you, as someone who previous lived in a property that only had
electric heating, that the E7 tariff saves some people a lot of money, so it
is hardly a "scam" on the part of the leccy company that it is available.

tim- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It saves you money if you use enough cheap night rate to offset the
higher price of the E7 day rate.
Or another way. E7, they give you cheaper night electricity and more
expensive day electricty. You need to use lots of night electricty to
recoup your day rate increase. If you don't use much of the cheap at
night, you end up paying more.

On Dec 7, 11:25*pm, "I am not Spartacus"
wrote:
"MM" wrote in message

... I was just checking my expected electricity bill and compared Southern
Electric's tariffs for standard domestic consumption (11.51p a unit in
my area) against their Economy 7 Night Rate (5.06p), i.e. a lot
cheaper.

Economy 7 is utter crap. *It is cheap to run but extremely inflexible. *On
cold days, the storage heaters cool down in the afternoon and you have to
rely on full tariff electricity or gas to heat the house in the evening. If
you guess cold day but it's a warm day the next day, you are wasting energy
and sweltering as you can't adjust the storage heaters. *I had it 20 years
ago. *I would not buy any house that had Economy 7 installed.

Things have improved a bit since then. The output of most storage
heaters can be controlled. But you still need to look at the weather
forecast ideally.

On Dec 8, 10:30*am, "Jeff Gaines" wrote:
On 08/12/2010 in message Ret.
wrote:

I once lived in a house that had storage radiators. They were utterly
utterly useless - particularly in Spring and Autumn when temperatures tend
to fluctuate considerably.

They heat up overnight - and so if the next day is mild, you are having to
throw the windows open to release some of the heat because the house is so
hot. *They tend to have lost most of their heat by the middle of the
afternoon - and so you then have to rely on additional (usually expensive)
heat sources to keep the house warm for the rest of the afternoon and
evening. For a couple that both work and are out of the house for most of
the day - they are simply a nonsense because the house is nice and warm
while they are out - and not warm enough when they get back home.

I'd be very interested to have some suggestions on alternatives.
I'm in a reasonably well insulated mid-terrace house with E7 and just 2
storage heaters - 1 in the hall and 1 in the lounge. I'm retired so here
all the time, no statistics yet as I moved in a month ago today.
Electric is the only option, no gas and nowhere for an oil tank.
The 2 bedrooms have electric panel heaters, I turn the one in my bedroom
on an hour before bedtime and turn the electric blanket on at the same
time. I turn the heater off when I go to bed and just get dressed PDQ each
morning.
Would I be better off with non storage heaters on a normal tariff and just
turn them on when needed?

--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
All those who believe in psychokinesis raise my hand.

No-one can say for sure without the statistics. It depends too on the
price differentials. E7 is more likely to be in your favour if you're
at home 24/7.
You might think about radiant heaters for intermittant use rather than
convectors.

On Dec 8, 11:45*am, "Ret." wrote:
Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 08/12/2010 in message
Ret. wrote:

I once lived in a house that had storage radiators. They were utterly
utterly useless - particularly in Spring and Autumn when
temperatures tend to fluctuate considerably.

They heat up overnight - and so if the next day is mild, you are
having to throw the windows open to release some of the heat because
the house is so hot. *They tend to have lost most of their heat by
the middle of the afternoon - and so you then have to rely on
additional (usually expensive) heat sources to keep the house warm
for the rest of the afternoon and evening. For a couple that both
work and are out of the house for most of the day - they are simply
a nonsense because the house is nice and warm while they are out -
and not warm enough when they get back home.

I'd be very interested to have some suggestions on alternatives.
I'm in a reasonably well insulated mid-terrace house with E7 and just
2 storage heaters - 1 in the hall and 1 in the lounge. I'm retired so
here all the time, no statistics yet as I moved in a month ago today.
Electric is the only option, no gas and nowhere for an oil tank.
The 2 bedrooms have electric panel heaters, I turn the one in my
bedroom on an hour before bedtime and turn the electric blanket on at
the same time. I turn the heater off when I go to bed and just get
dressed PDQ each morning.
Would I be better off with non storage heaters on a normal tariff and
just turn them on when needed?

I think you need to speak to a heating engineer on what are your best
options. It is possible, of course, to run a gas system off propane tanks -
but I have no idea of the cost of propane whole-house heating.

--
Kev- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Propane is the most expensive heating option you can have.

On Dec 8, 2:50*pm, harry wrote:
On Dec 8, 11:45*am, "Ret." wrote:





Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 08/12/2010 in message
Ret. wrote:

I once lived in a house that had storage radiators. They were utterly
utterly useless - particularly in Spring and Autumn when
temperatures tend to fluctuate considerably.

They heat up overnight - and so if the next day is mild, you are
having to throw the windows open to release some of the heat because
the house is so hot. *They tend to have lost most of their heat by
the middle of the afternoon - and so you then have to rely on
additional (usually expensive) heat sources to keep the house warm
for the rest of the afternoon and evening. For a couple that both
work and are out of the house for most of the day - they are simply
a nonsense because the house is nice and warm while they are out -
and not warm enough when they get back home.

I'd be very interested to have some suggestions on alternatives.
I'm in a reasonably well insulated mid-terrace house with E7 and just
2 storage heaters - 1 in the hall and 1 in the lounge. I'm retired so
here all the time, no statistics yet as I moved in a month ago today.
Electric is the only option, no gas and nowhere for an oil tank.
The 2 bedrooms have electric panel heaters, I turn the one in my
bedroom on an hour before bedtime and turn the electric blanket on at
the same time. I turn the heater off when I go to bed and just get
dressed PDQ each morning.
Would I be better off with non storage heaters on a normal tariff and
just turn them on when needed?

I think you need to speak to a heating engineer on what are your best
options. It is possible, of course, to run a gas system off propane tanks -
but I have no idea of the cost of propane whole-house heating.

--
Kev- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Propane is the most expensive heating option you can have.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The one thing you can say aout storage heaters is that they are
relatively cheap to install. And you can take them with you when you
move. Should you want to!