page 60 of the on site guide shows cables running vertically or
horizontally from accessories.

Is it really OK to run them between sockets horizontally?

I've never seen it done - people usually run up from the floor (or
down from the ceiling) to each sockets, even when a horizontal run
would be easier. It would save a lot of effort in our kitchen and
study to run horizontally between sockets, just dropping down at each
end.

If this OK?

Cheers,
David.

David Robinson wrote:


Is it really OK to run them between sockets horizontally?

I've never seen it done - people usually run up from the floor (or
down from the ceiling) to each sockets, even when a horizontal run
would be easier.

Hmmm... try this, from a property I did up not long ago (and yes, I did
completely rewire it!):
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/3383/img5491u.jpg

If this OK?

Yes, horizontal is fine

David

In article
,
David Robinson wrote:
I've never seen it done - people usually run up from the floor (or
down from the ceiling) to each sockets, even when a horizontal run
would be easier. It would save a lot of effort in our kitchen and
study to run horizontally between sockets, just dropping down at each
end.

Exactly what I did in my kitchen for the above worktop sockets.
If you're going to tile, it might be worth not chasing (or cutting) out
totally for the backing boxes, but wait until tiling time, so they fit
nicely between tiles.

--
*Would a fly without wings be called a walk?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 22/05/10 08:34, David Robinson wrote:
page 60 of the on site guide shows cables running vertically or
horizontally from accessories.

Is it really OK to run them between sockets horizontally?

Yes. It is absolutely by the book to do so. I've done it here (silly to
go up-down-up-down when your ground floor is concrete).


--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

On Sat, 22 May 2010 08:42:33 +0100, Lobster wrote:

Hmmm... try this, from a property I did up not long ago (and yes, I did
completely rewire it!):
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/3383/img5491u.jpg

Wasn't coming from a cooker hood was it? Professional or DIY install?

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2010 08:42:33 +0100, Lobster wrote:

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/3383/img5491u.jpg

Wasn't coming from a cooker hood was it? Professional or DIY install?

The original cooker outlet (early '70s professional install) in my house
was diagonal and without steel capping.

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2010 08:42:33 +0100, Lobster wrote:

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/3383/img5491u.jpg

Wasn't coming from a cooker hood was it? Professional or DIY install?

The original cooker outlet (early '70s professional install) in my house
was diagonal and without steel capping.

Because of their physical position, they're often easier to run from the
lighting circuit.

--
*I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In articleueCdndPq75QzNmrWnZ2dnUVZ8nmdnZ2d@brightvie w.co.uk,
Andy wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2010 08:42:33 +0100, Lobster wrote:

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/3383/img5491u.jpg

Wasn't coming from a cooker hood was it? Professional or DIY install?

The original cooker outlet (early '70s professional install) in my house
was diagonal and without steel capping.

Because of their physical position, they're often easier to run from the
lighting circuit.

I wasn't talking about a cooker hood, but the main cooker point. Either
they were short of 6(?)mm cable that day, or they didn't like the
thought of trying to bend it to keep it horizontal/vertical.

During the same kitchen refurb where I found that, I also found that
when the kitchen extension had been build, the bonding from the CU to
the incoming water main had been sliced straight through by angle
grinder when they formed the new opening the wall ...

On Sat, 22 May 2010 11:02:21 +0100 someone who may be Andy Burns
wrote this:-

The original cooker outlet (early '70s professional install) in my house
was diagonal and without steel capping.

So?

Running unprotected cables diagonally was not frowned upon until
IIRC sometime in the 1980s.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember David Hansen
saying something like:

On Sat, 22 May 2010 11:02:21 +0100 someone who may be Andy Burns
wrote this:-

The original cooker outlet (early '70s professional install) in my house
was diagonal and without steel capping.

So?

Running unprotected cables diagonally was not frowned upon until
IIRC sometime in the 1980s.

It was always a bloody stupid thing to do.

David Hansen wrote:

Running unprotected cables diagonally was not frowned upon until
IIRC sometime in the 1980s.

I noted recently on one of those DIY SOS programmes that the team
brought in to rectify a DIY bodger's work ran cables diagonally to
sockets. I wrote to the TV company concerned about the installation, but
predictably I received no reply.

On Sat, 22 May 2010 13:43:26 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:

David Hansen wrote:

Running unprotected cables diagonally was not frowned upon until
IIRC sometime in the 1980s.

I noted recently on one of those DIY SOS programmes that the team
brought in to rectify a DIY bodger's work ran cables diagonally to
sockets. I wrote to the TV company concerned about the installation, but
predictably I received no reply.

I know there is one such cable in my house, but I can also understand why -
a vertical drop would bring the cable down directly on-top of the RSJs
supporting the floor between the house and the extension. It's wrong and if
I ever get round to re-wiring the extension I'll sort it (I did the rest of
the house when I moved in). In the meantime, as I know about it it's no
great problem.

SteveW

Steve Walker wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2010 13:43:26 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:

David Hansen wrote:

Running unprotected cables diagonally was not frowned upon until
IIRC sometime in the 1980s.

I noted recently on one of those DIY SOS programmes that the team
brought in to rectify a DIY bodger's work ran cables diagonally to
sockets. I wrote to the TV company concerned about the installation, but
predictably I received no reply.

I know there is one such cable in my house, but I can also understand why -
a vertical drop would bring the cable down directly on-top of the RSJs
supporting the floor between the house and the extension. It's wrong and if
I ever get round to re-wiring the extension I'll sort it (I did the rest of
the house when I moved in). In the meantime, as I know about it it's no
great problem.

There are places where I'm not sure that the horizontal/vertical rule
improves safety. In my kitchen when the electrician fitted the
extraction hood he ran the cable vertically from the switch until he
reached the height of the cooker hood then horizontally from that point
to the hood. Then the plasterer plastered over everything. There's now
nothing to show the run of cable behind the plaster and to me a diagonal
run from switch to hood might be more obvious than the current
installation. It's not mine to reason why in this case, someone else
done it, guv.

If there's an RSJ involved then it's even harder to locate the cable
using a cable finder.

In message , Steve Firth
writes

There are places where I'm not sure that the horizontal/vertical rule
improves safety. I

I'll second that. I was working in a cellar that had twin 13A socket
all around the wall spaced about 10' apart at about 4' above the floor,
I opened a couple and the wiring was horizontal. Fair enough, the unit
I was mounting was at about 6' above the floor and half way between 2
sockets,

Turns out that the ring came from above and then split left and right,
half way between 2 sockets. No prizes for guessing where I
drilled........... Why they didn't fetch it down above a socket I'm not
sure and why I didn't use my cable detector I'm even less sure.......

--
Bill

Zones...
- Vertical Corner-Corner 150mm
- Vertical from a wiring accessory
- Horizontal Ceiling 150mm
- Horizontal from a wiring accessory
- Intersection of Vertical-to-Horizontal formed by 2 wiring
accessories
- Reverse of wall 100mm thick where easily identified (not commonly
used but worth remembering with modern studs internal partition
walling)

There is picture in the OSG, NICEIC do one, just about everyone does
one, which makes it very clear & simple.

Note cables should not run loose on ceilings because of the 50mm from
finished surface rule.

If you have cable out of zone, or 50mm from finished surface re
ceilings, the simplest solution is BS8436 cable from Discount
Electrical (it is not listed on their website, but they do carry it in
cut lengths).

You can also use steel conduit or "mechanical protection sufficient to
prevent penetration by a nail" (very thick steel) or a wiring
accessory blank faceplate or bury 50mm from the finished surface (not
likely with Building Reg "A" chase depth limit). However for practical
reasons BS8436 1.0-1.5-2.5mm is "made for just this situation",
installed like FTE (no glands to remain accessible for Inspection &
Testing), as long as protected by 32A Type-B MCB/RCBO (ie, you can't
use a rewireable fuse or Type-D as often used for HVAC startup-surge).

On May 22, 4:07*pm, Bill wrote:
Turns out that the ring came from above and then split left and right,
half way between 2 sockets.

Then the vertical drop was not in zone :-)

On Sat, 22 May 2010 08:26:28 -0700 (PDT), js.b1 wrote:

Turns out that the ring came from above and then split left and
right,
half way between 2 sockets.

Then the vertical drop was not in zone :-)

Quite, horizontal or vertical from a visible accessory and a 150mm
band in the corners and at ceiling level? Which should help with the
accessory vertically below and RSJ, vertical to the rasj then around
either side of it. IIRC 17th ed may well have changed things, even if
my memory of 16th is right. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
o.uk...
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2010 08:42:33 +0100, Lobster wrote:

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/3383/img5491u.jpg

Wasn't coming from a cooker hood was it? Professional or DIY install?

The original cooker outlet (early '70s professional install) in my house
was diagonal and without steel capping.


Diagonal is bad, steel capping is irrelevant as its only there to stop the
plasterer from damaging the cable.

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
.. .


I know there is one such cable in my house, but I can also understand
why -
a vertical drop would bring the cable down directly on-top of the RSJs
supporting the floor between the house and the extension. It's wrong and
if
I ever get round to re-wiring the extension I'll sort it (I did the rest
of
the house when I moved in). In the meantime, as I know about it it's no
great problem.

You could put a dummy face plate with a note in it near the ceiling to mark
where it starts.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2010 08:42:33 +0100, Lobster wrote:

Hmmm... try this, from a property I did up not long ago (and yes, I did
completely rewire it!):
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/3383/img5491u.jpg

Wasn't coming from a cooker hood was it? Professional or DIY install?

Actually, I happen to have a 'before' picture too, so here it is:
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9555/img4666u.jpg

.... just a regular 13A spur, presumably for the TV (and no, the Daily
Sport wasn't mine! I think it would have been a pro job, but can't be
sure. Judging by the colour scheme (!) I would place it at pre-1970s, so
as another poster as alluded to, maybe it was actually legal then.

David

On 22/05/10 16:33, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2010 08:26:28 -0700 (PDT), js.b1 wrote:

Turns out that the ring came from above and then split left and
right,
half way between 2 sockets.

Then the vertical drop was not in zone :-)

Quite, horizontal or vertical from a visible accessory and a 150mm
band in the corners and at ceiling level? Which should help with the
accessory vertically below and RSJ, vertical to the rasj then around
either side of it. IIRC 17th ed may well have changed things, even if
my memory of 16th is right. B-)


It's still in the 17th exactly as you say

--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
David Robinson wrote:


Is it really OK to run them between sockets horizontally?

I've never seen it done - people usually run up from the floor (or
down from the ceiling) to each sockets, even when a horizontal run
would be easier.

Hmmm... try this, from a property I did up not long ago (and yes, I did
completely rewire it!):
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/3383/img5491u.jpg

If this OK?

Yes, horizontal is fine

David

Not much choice if floor is concrete: just a couple of feet with the angle
grinder fills whole house up with incredible amount of plaster dust though!

S

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 23/05/2010 02:34, spamlet wrote:
wrote in message
...
David Robinson wrote:


Is it really OK to run them between sockets horizontally?

I've never seen it done - people usually run up from the floor (or
down from the ceiling) to each sockets, even when a horizontal run
would be easier.

Hmmm... try this, from a property I did up not long ago (and yes, I did
completely rewire it!):
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/3383/img5491u.jpg

If this OK?

Yes, horizontal is fine

David

Not much choice if floor is concrete: just a couple of feet with the
angle
grinder fills whole house up with incredible amount of plaster dust
though!

Well you can go up into the floor void above...

(wall chaser with dust extraction is significantly better BTW than an
ordinary AG).

John.

Only needed to do it once so far John: I only do the odd one when say
furniture - in this case a piano - prevents access to an existing socket.
Otherwise I've tended to drill and chisel rather than use an angle grinder
(old house mostly very very soft plaster), but in this spot the buggers had
concreted up the wall under the plaster and I had nothing to cut it with but
a borrowed angle grinder. I have to say I was pretty impressed by the total
white out that a few seconds of cutting created! :-)

S

"John Rumm" wrote in message
news
On 23/05/2010 18:13, spamlet wrote:

(old house mostly very very soft plaster), but in this spot the buggers
had
concreted up the wall under the plaster and I had nothing to cut it with
but
a borrowed angle grinder. I have to say I was pretty impressed by the
total
white out that a few seconds of cutting created! :-)

BTSTGTTS!

First time I tried it, I got about half way down a 4' chase in new plaster
before I realised I could not see my hands 1' in front of my face anymore!

I would not repeat that exercise in an inhabited building again! The
chaser however makes is no worse than using the SDS with a chisel bit.

John.

I didn't get the T-shirt, but it looks like when I get back on the ball I'll
be in the market for some SDS gear, after all the praise it is getting here
lately.
:-)
S

"js.b1" wrote in message
...

Note cables should not run loose on ceilings because of the 50mm from
finished surface rule.


Which rule says 50mm from surface applies to ceilings?
522.6.6 relates to walls.

Regards
Bruce

On 24 May, 09:43, "BruceB" wrote:
"js.b1" wrote in message

...


Note cables should not run loose on ceilings because of the 50mm from
finished surface rule.

Which rule says 50mm from surface applies to ceilings?
522.6.6 relates to walls.

Thanks everyone for the advice.

The surprising thing about the existing (original, 1973, woefully
inadequate) wiring is how neatly it's all installed. Though there is
at least one point where cables are run diagonally. Very economical on
use of copper.

Cheers,
David.

In article ,
spamlet wrote:
First time I tried it, I got about half way down a 4' chase in new
plaster before I realised I could not see my hands 1' in front of my
face anymore!

I would not repeat that exercise in an inhabited building again! The
chaser however makes is no worse than using the SDS with a chisel bit.

John.

I didn't get the T-shirt, but it looks like when I get back on the ball
I'll be in the market for some SDS gear, after all the praise it is
getting here lately.
:-)

Do note if you intend using it for chasing walls to get one of the
lightweight ones - which sadly usually means more expensive. Trust me. ;-)

--
*A backward poet writes inverse*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On May 24, 9:43*am, "BruceB" wrote:
"js.b1" wrote in message
...
Note cables should not run loose on ceilings because of the 50mm from
finished surface rule.

Which rule says 50mm from surface applies to ceilings?
522.6.6 relates to walls.

522.6.5 relates to ceilings & floors (p59 of the 17th OSG).
Where a cable is installed under a floor or above a ceiling it shall
be run in such a position that it is not liable to be damaged by
contact with the floor or ceiling or the fixings thereof.

So the rule does not apply to cables run loose on ceilings.

However, consider a cable penetrating a joist and then running
parallel to the joist along the ceiling - it is quite possible someone
may screw into the joist using a stud detector and by chance catching
the cable. An example would be a battery powered CO alarm or smoke
alarm to the ceiling, or clothes airer, CO or smoke alarm, wireless
camera or office style lowered on steel cables (can be great for
hiding cable trays of networking cables :-)

On May 24, 10:37*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
Do note if you intend using it for chasing walls to get one of the
lightweight ones - which sadly usually means more expensive. Trust me. ;-)

Go by dust extraction - which is a whole new thread, adventure &
whiteout of its own.

I have used an arbor with diamond cutting disc in a 14V cordless (not
mains!) drill to slot walls, with a helper running a vacuum cleaner
nozzle catching the "very narrow & controlled jet of ejectile
material". Very cheap, somewhat slower, but almost no mess, Miele will
handle plaster ok - at least a very old battered Miele cleaner with
everything broken off it has done so for several years.

John Rumm wrote:

First time I tried it, I got about half way down a 4' chase in new
plaster before I realised I could not see my hands 1' in front of my
face anymore!

I would not repeat that exercise in an inhabited building again!

Downstairs of house was almost entirely out of action, I waited for a
windy day, wedged open front door, back door, and internal doors thenlet
rip with the AG, shopped out a full height breeze block wall in the
porch, and "chased" all the drops for re-wiring the kitchen, looked like
smoke belching out of kitchen door ...

On Sat, 22 May 2010 16:33:15 +0100 (BST), Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2010 08:26:28 -0700 (PDT), js.b1 wrote:

Turns out that the ring came from above and then split left and
right,
half way between 2 sockets.

Then the vertical drop was not in zone :-)

Quite, horizontal or vertical from a visible accessory and a 150mm
band in the corners and at ceiling level? Which should help with the
accessory vertically below and RSJ, vertical to the rasj then around
either side of it. IIRC 17th ed may well have changed things, even if
my memory of 16th is right. B-)

Unfortunately the accessory is vertically *above* the RSJs, and the ring is
in the floor that they support.

I know where it is though, so I'll either do something if I rewire the
extension or just tell the buyers when we move house.

SteveW