Dave wrote:
Clive George wrote:


What's the "correct" pronunciation of Castle, Grass, etc then?

I would think that would depend a lot on which part of England you live in.

The 'a' in both words would be pronounced as long soft ones in the
South. Up here, in the North, we use the harder short way.

Grass, in the South would come over as 'graaass, where as in Lancashire
it would come over as 'grass' the 'a' would sound more like the a in has.

What I can't understand is why the South has not got to grips with the
term 'bacon butty'? " granddaughters live in Portsmouth and everytime
they visit we have to stop them saying a bacon sandwhich and get them to
call it a bacon butty.

Look on the internet and it is a common term when describing 2 pieces of
bread, buttered and served with bacon between. I was on a web site this
afternoon promoting bacon and even they called it a butty.


Lancashire dialect. IIRC.

I dont pull ma breeks on in the morning either, or britches for that matter.

Dialect words may or may not gain or lose common parlance. Swine has
been replaced by pig almost exclusively, as pigs became the business of
thos who used the sort of scandinavian derived dialects..the loss of
french pronunciation as the sway of the original norman conquest 'upper
classes' has diminished. this is all fine enough.

What is not fine, is the sea of ambiguity that now threatens to rob
language of comprehensibility and precise meaning.

And the attendant attitude that this actually doesn't MATTER.

Punctuation has a HUGE impact on meaning.

Spelling distinguishes homonyms.

One received pronunciation may not be everyone's common speech, but it
does provide a single standard that can be used unambiguously as a
single means of converse with ambiguity removed.

You may feel that since no one has anything worth saying anymore, how
you say it is irrelevant: I don't ascribe to that view. The clipped
tones of the military are not mere affectation: they are there to allow
precise unambiguous orders to be given in conditions of high background
noise, for example.





Dave

On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 21:52:04 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Owain wrote:
Rod wrote:
And that huge city Ausfahrt - every autobahn seems to lead to it.

Lots of footpaths in Wales lead to the pretty village of Cyfleusterau
Cyhoeddus

Owain

I always thought that meant 'don't shag the sheep'

When a bit lost in Wales I came across a small reservoir that was shown on
the map but the name on the sign was Dwr Cymru and most of them seem to be
called that - most confusing.

(Found out later that it means 'Birmingham's Water').
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Not talking about accent. Dav was, it seems. Its correct pronunciation
and grammar, that's all.

Accent and pronunciation go together.

No they don't.

Consonant elision is not mere accent.

Accent is stress and intonation alone.

Saying 'gorra lorra cash' rather than 'is financially well endowed' is
at one level, a dialectical exercise, but is not an *accented* form of
'Got a lot of cash'.

It's a *******ised format. And may well be unintelligible to anyone not
used to it.

On Thu, 05 Mar 2009 00:43:25 +0000, Stephen Howard
wrote:

On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 14:22:08 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

The current ethos is 'standards make people feel inferior, or superior
and so we shouldn't have any'.

I feel the current ethos seems to be to 'celebrate' the mundane, and
as such that becomes part of the 'public consciousness' - so in that
respect I suppose the statement stands.

It's worse than that IMHO. The current ethos seems also to celebrate
stupidity and the superficial.

Worse still it seems to be unnacceptable to think for oneself
nowadays.

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
See http://improve-usenet.org

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yup. The clearest pronunciation of all in the UK comes with an accent
from the NE of Scotland. Not to be confused with the dialect from
there, obviously. 'BBC perceived pronunciation' is actually quite
poor. Too many words with different meanings sounding the same. Wales
and whales being the obvious one.

whereas in scotland, its whales and wheels... ;-)

So you consider a cockney and geordie accent the same?

I dont understand how you can possibly draw that conclusion.

Geordie is Scandinavian in its singsong intonation. Cockney is
ultimately low French.

Bob Mannix wrote:

Regioanl accents and vocabulary OTOH are one of the things that make the
nation interesting. Vive la difference! (as the continentals might say... or
is it "le"?).


Agreed, that 'standard English' might be a moving target, but that is
not an argument for no standards at all.

On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 23:55:24 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Mark wrote:
On Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:16:46 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

What have we done to the ederkayshun in this country ?

Seen in a shop window when I just took a wander down to the village centre
:-

"WE HAVE MOVED A CROSSED THE ROAD"

It's enough to make you weep ...

The worse one I remember was "LOOK RIHGT" painted on the road at a
pedestrian crossing.

or

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35393854@N00/1409351331/
http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.p...9a680/502d1321

Looks like a soft drink advert....

Shame, I can't find a photo of the a.m. pedestrian crossing.

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
See http://improve-usenet.org

On Thu, 05 Mar 2009 07:38:29 +0000, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember PeterC
saying something like:

If you want a "lathe and plaster" ceiling, on your own head be it.

It'd give you a nasty turn.

And could screw you over.

I'm all in a spin.

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
See http://improve-usenet.org

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bob Mannix wrote:
A note at work yesterday refers to "fora" as the plural of forum.
References are fairly united that, although "fora" is the plural of the
Latin word, the accepted plural is "forums" with "fora" as an
alternative. Which is "correct" today?

If you adopt a word into a language then generally the rules of that
language apply. Hence 'le weekend' etc. Those who wish to use the Latin
plural are simply trying to prove how clever they are.

No, to some of us it is simply the natural and correct way to proceed.

We just know that 'a phenonema' is not correct. It's 'a phenomenon'.

And when using such words, its generally in a context of very precise
meaning being required.


The exception might
be where the original word that is adopted is already a plural.

Arfa Daily wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Arfa Daily wrote:
"Frank Erskine" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:24:52 +0000, Dave
wrote:

The Medway Handyman wrote:

Garage around here with 'Keep Cleer' painted on the doors.
That reminds me of my early apprenticeship days.

I was designated to learn/work in an offshoot of the tool room in a
press shop. They had a cupboard there and on the front were the words

Kee
Pout

There's a local print firm near here with an enormous sign on the side
of their building advertising, inter alia, "Vehical Signs".

--
Frank Erskine
My god ! It's even worse than I suspected ... Lots of funny stories
here - until, that is, you actually take time to stop and think about
them, and then it stops being quite so funny. I am seriously saddened
that a once great teaching system, has now reached the point where it is
turning out people who know so little as to not realise that these things
are wrong. A lad I know is now a teacher himself. He used to come to our
house (he was friends with our son) and say "I brought a new game for my
computer today" and I used to say "No (Andy), you *bought* a new game,
and then you *brought* it home". I wonder how many kids in North London
are now growing up with that little gem in their limited comprehension of
the language ?
Such is the way language evolves - there will come a time where their way
is "correct" and the right way is archaic.

--
Cheers,

John.

Happening already, methinks ... Both my girls used to come home from their
secondary school telling tales of other girls in the year being or acting
"facety". It took me a long time to get to the bottom of this one. Turned
out it was a complete mis-pronunciation of the word 'feisty', that had just
passed that way into their vocabulary. I rather suspect that it was actually
one of the teachers that helped it on its way there, too ...


Scottish probably.
Arfa

John Rumm wrote:

My reference was to the fact that the French attempt rigorously control
their language, and resist attempts to extend it or allow it to evolve.
Hence why they have to borrow English phrases to describe anything
technical etc. Le email etc.



Welsh is the same. I beleive the way to pump your tyres up is to put
wind in your wheels.

Did you know that th country with the largest number of English speakers
will shortly be China?

However, as I keep insisting. having standards is not t same as
preserving a static language.

Stephen Howard wrote:

I was browsing in a charity shop recently and my attention was caught
by a rather vociferous child who was rooting through a box of toys.
I'd say he was around six or seven years old, and as he pulled out a
certain toy he exclaimed in a painfully cultured accent "Oh, this is
broken - this will never do!".

Well at least he understood the meaning.

Whereas we now have a party in power that looks, behaves and talks as if
they had never left their nappies behind, let alone the school playground.

Stephen Howard wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 17:21:08 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

snip
A TV reporter has turned up recently with the unbelievably marvellous
(to me!) name of 'Damien Grammaticus'?. First time I heard him report
I instantly knew his educational background, his university, his
parents, his wealth, his 'class'. Quick Google and yep I was correct.
My big problem is that as a working class oik, dragged up within a
strong socialist environment and tutored to regard his class as 'the
enemy', I find I greatly prefer his type of standard diction, as
compared to that of 'estuary english', or nearly unintelligable Irish
accents that are turning up on the telly rather too often.

I rather like that Neil Nunes chap that popped up on Radio 4 - somehow
the news and weather always seem much brighter when it's announced by
his rich, Caribbean basso.

Makes a nice change from the squeaky ladies that just seem to make me
want to go 'Neep neep neep' ( I don't know why, that's just the way it
is ).

Regards,



Agreed on both counts.

And as for the dreadful Kirsty Wade..is she drunk all the time, or is
she brain damaged..she slurs every word..

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bob Mannix wrote:
A note at work yesterday refers to "fora" as the plural of forum.
References are fairly united that, although "fora" is the plural of the
Latin word, the accepted plural is "forums" with "fora" as an
alternative. Which is "correct" today?

If you adopt a word into a language then generally the rules of that
language apply. Hence 'le weekend' etc. Those who wish to use the Latin
plural are simply trying to prove how clever they are.

No, to some of us it is simply the natural and correct way to proceed.

We just know that 'a phenonema' is not correct. It's 'a phenomenon'.


Eh? Of course we do - it's "a phenomenon" and "a number of phenomena" - I
don't think anyone disputes that - what was the point you were making?

On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 08:22:44 -0000, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:


"Alang" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 05 Mar 2009 00:13:58 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yup. The clearest pronunciation of all in the UK comes with an accent
from the NE of Scotland. Not to be confused with the dialect from
there, obviously. 'BBC perceived pronunciation' is actually quite
poor. Too many words with different meanings sounding the same. Wales
and whales being the obvious one.

whereas in scotland, its whales and wheels... ;-)

So you consider a cockney and geordie accent the same?

I hope he doesn't.
My mother was raised on Tyneside and spoke very clearly and distinctly
in a local accent. Never lost it and was understood anywhere she went
except by cockneys.

Now if you had said cockney and glaswegian...

And why do some people not pronounce the 'H' in herb and hotel?
Apart from those raised in France.

For the first because they are merkins, for the second because it's
"correct" not to pronounce it, which is why it's "an hotel" not "a hotel".

Only for french people. In English the 'h' i sounded

Mind you it's a long time since I heard the "correct" pronunciation of
Coventry as "Cuventry" on the tv.

I suspect Cuventry is a local usage


A note at work yesterday refers to "fora" as the plural of forum. References
are fairly united that, although "fora" is the plural of the Latin word, the
accepted plural is "forums" with "fora" as an alternative. Which is
"correct" today?

"Correct" English is, do the dismay of the
ultra-conservative-with-a-small-c-(and-probably-a-big-C-as-well), a moving
target. There would be few, if any, now, who would regard "Coventry" as the
incorrect pronunciation, or, indeed, an aspirated "hotel" as incorrect or
who would not find the use of "Cuventry", "'otel", "fora" etc not correct
but merely perverse.

Regioanl accents and vocabulary OTOH are one of the things that make the
nation interesting. Vive la difference! (as the continentals might say... or
is it "le"?).

I spent two years learning French at school in the 50s.
Never met a frenchman until 1992.
I can just about recall
Je suis
Tous et
Vous et
Quelle pillock!?

"Alang" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 08:22:44 -0000, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:


"Alang" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 05 Mar 2009 00:13:58 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yup. The clearest pronunciation of all in the UK comes with an
accent
from the NE of Scotland. Not to be confused with the dialect from
there, obviously. 'BBC perceived pronunciation' is actually quite
poor. Too many words with different meanings sounding the same.
Wales
and whales being the obvious one.

whereas in scotland, its whales and wheels... ;-)

So you consider a cockney and geordie accent the same?

I hope he doesn't.
My mother was raised on Tyneside and spoke very clearly and distinctly
in a local accent. Never lost it and was understood anywhere she went
except by cockneys.

Now if you had said cockney and glaswegian...

And why do some people not pronounce the 'H' in herb and hotel?
Apart from those raised in France.

For the first because they are merkins, for the second because it's
"correct" not to pronounce it, which is why it's "an hotel" not "a hotel".

Only for french people. In English the 'h' i sounded

It is now but the (old-fashioned) and, some might say, "correct"
prununciation, is without the "h". The fact that you do not think so merely
underlies my point about the dynamics of langauage. It was certainly
regarded as "correct", if posh, when I was a boy.


Mind you it's a long time since I heard the "correct" pronunciation of
Coventry as "Cuventry" on the tv.

I suspect Cuventry is a local usage


No, perhaps the opposite! Ditto my remarks above. The RP BBC guide
pronunciation was "Cuventry" and that was "correct". I very much doubt that
it is now! AFAICR the last time a BBC newsreader used "Cuventry" that I
heard, was in the 1970's.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Not 'entertainment'. News and so on. Informational programs should not be
hosted by people who obviously lack the ability to speak grammatically
correct english in a clear voice.If their information on grammar is
patently incorrect, what does that say for their information on anything
else?

There are lots of regional accents on TV, that is good thing, but many do
not pronounce the words properly. There is the Geordie financial man on the
TV news who can't pronounce "to"'s. That is a no, no. Northern Irish say
"noi", not "now. Stephen Norris, top knob in the snotty Tory party, is a
Liverpudlian with a Liverpool accent however all is pronounced correctly, so
comes across very well. The accent is usually fine, except grating Northern
Irish, which is difficult to understand for many - especially foreigners -
as the best of times. I recall an American I know, only half understanding
a Northern Irish presenter on TV, who spoke the words reasonably well.

This snotty uni man is clearly on about "accent", which to his small mind
the only proper way to speak English is with a southern England snotty uni
accent. When this bunch say Hawwwwlt instead of halt - and say they speak
the correct way. Cheeky *******s.

Is estuary English Cockney?

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

She is a foreigner anyway. I would get rid of her tomorrow, the whole
lot of them.

A

Pklease eff off as you are a plantpot.

The message
from Dave contains these words:

Yup. The clearest pronunciation of all in the UK comes with an accent from
the NE of Scotland.

Not too far North though. I used to work with someone from that area and
that was when I realised how good and clear they spoke. It was somewhere
just above Edinburgh.

It used to be said that the purist english could be heard in Edinburgh
whose English roots are uncontaminated by French rule.

--
Roger Chapman

The message
from John Rumm contains these words:

and be called French ;-)

English does not derive from French. Duh!

a passe comment...

My reference was to the fact that the French attempt rigorously control
their language, and resist attempts to extend it or allow it to evolve.
Hence why they have to borrow English phrases to describe anything
technical etc. Le email etc.

There is a subset of English that has strong French roots. Something to
do with being ruled by a ******* William whose native language it was
despite him being of Viking descent.

--
Roger Chapman

The message
from PeterC contains these words:

When a bit lost in Wales I came across a small reservoir that was shown on
the map but the name on the sign was Dwr Cymru and most of them seem to be
called that - most confusing.

(Found out later that it means 'Birmingham's Water').

I don't speak Welsh either but surely that should translate as Welsh water?

--
Roger Chapman

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

One received pronunciation may not be everyone's common speech, but it
does provide a single standard that can be used unambiguously as a single
means of converse with ambiguity removed.

Make your mind up. You said three or four messages ago you didn't feel RP
was necessary, now you're back to saying it is.

On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 09:51:34 -0000, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:

"Alang" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 08:22:44 -0000, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:


"Alang" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 05 Mar 2009 00:13:58 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yup. The clearest pronunciation of all in the UK comes with an
accent
from the NE of Scotland. Not to be confused with the dialect from
there, obviously. 'BBC perceived pronunciation' is actually quite
poor. Too many words with different meanings sounding the same.
Wales
and whales being the obvious one.

whereas in scotland, its whales and wheels... ;-)

So you consider a cockney and geordie accent the same?

I hope he doesn't.
My mother was raised on Tyneside and spoke very clearly and distinctly
in a local accent. Never lost it and was understood anywhere she went
except by cockneys.

Now if you had said cockney and glaswegian...

And why do some people not pronounce the 'H' in herb and hotel?
Apart from those raised in France.

For the first because they are merkins, for the second because it's
"correct" not to pronounce it, which is why it's "an hotel" not "a hotel".

Only for french people. In English the 'h' i sounded

It is now but the (old-fashioned) and, some might say, "correct"
prununciation, is without the "h". The fact that you do not think so merely
underlies my point about the dynamics of langauage. It was certainly
regarded as "correct", if posh, when I was a boy.

It was regarded as trying to be french when I was a boy. There used to
be a french onion seller who spoke with a geordie accent.


Mind you it's a long time since I heard the "correct" pronunciation of
Coventry as "Cuventry" on the tv.

I suspect Cuventry is a local usage


No, perhaps the opposite! Ditto my remarks above. The RP BBC guide
pronunciation was "Cuventry" and that was "correct". I very much doubt that
it is now! AFAICR the last time a BBC newsreader used "Cuventry" that I
heard, was in the 1970's.

Probably just sloppy pronunciation

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Look, if someone is an 'entertainer' then regional dialects are and can
be part of that entertainment. Rab C Nesbitt springs to mind.

Are you ever going to understand the difference between dialect and
accent?

What I object to is anchor men and so on speaking apalling english.

They're mostly reading it so you need to broaden your criticism.

--
*A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
So you want all dramas played by actors using your favourite accent?

Not 'entertainment'. News and so on. Informational programs should not
be hosted by people who obviously lack the ability to speak
grammatically correct english in a clear voice.If their information on
grammar is patently incorrect, what does that say for their information
on anything else?

'Grammatically correct English' can be spoken in any accent. Having your
preferred southern English one doesn't guarantee good English. Often quite
the reverse. And the quality of the voice is yet something else which
isn't a part of intelligence or education.

--
*If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Accent and pronunciation go together.

No they don't.

Consonant elision is not mere accent.

Accent is stress and intonation alone.

Saying 'gorra lorra cash' rather than 'is financially well endowed' is
at one level, a dialectical exercise, but is not an *accented* form of
'Got a lot of cash'.

That's nothing whatsoever to do with accent.

It's a *******ised format. And may well be unintelligible to anyone not
used to it.

As may be any dialect. Or jargon.

--
*I didn't fight my way to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yup. The clearest pronunciation of all in the UK comes with an accent
from the NE of Scotland. Not to be confused with the dialect from
there, obviously. 'BBC perceived pronunciation' is actually quite
poor. Too many words with different meanings sounding the same. Wales
and whales being the obvious one.

whereas in scotland, its whales and wheels... ;-)

So you consider a cockney and geordie accent the same?

I dont understand how you can possibly draw that conclusion.

Because you obviously think there is only one Scottish accent...

Geordie is Scandinavian in its singsong intonation. Cockney is
ultimately low French.

--
*Why is it that to stop Windows 95, you have to click on "Start"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If you adopt a word into a language then generally the rules of that
language apply. Hence 'le weekend' etc. Those who wish to use the Latin
plural are simply trying to prove how clever they are.

No, to some of us it is simply the natural and correct way to proceed.

As I said - trying to appear clever. Speech is basically to communicate
with others. Your way restricts that communication to those with a good
knowledge of a long dead language.

Of course it's not so long ago Latin was used by doctors to write
prescriptions. Handy to prevent some patients knowing they were getting
coloured water. Strikes me that's what you want.

--
*How do you tell when you run out of invisible ink? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Not 'entertainment'. News and so on. Informational programs should not be
hosted by people who obviously lack the ability to speak grammatically
correct english in a clear voice.If their information on grammar is
patently incorrect, what does that say for their information on anything
else?

There are lots of regional accents on TV, that is good thing, but many do
not pronounce the words properly. There is the Geordie financial man on
the TV news who can't pronounce "to"'s. That is a no, no. Northern Irish
say "noi", not "now. Stephen Norris, top knob in the snotty Tory party,
is a Liverpudlian with a Liverpool accent however all is pronounced
correctly, so comes across very well. The accent is usually fine, except
grating Northern Irish, which is difficult to understand for many -
especially foreigners - as the best of times. I recall an American I
know, only half understanding a Northern Irish presenter on TV, who spoke
the words reasonably well.

This snotty uni man is clearly on about "accent", which to his small mind
the only proper way to speak English is with a southern England snotty uni
accent. When this bunch say Hawwwwlt instead of halt - and say they speak
the correct way. Cheeky *******s.

Is estuary English Cockney?


You just can't resist pulling politics and class prejudice into it, can you.
Everyone from the lowest educated council house kid to privileged public
school kids go to university (not that dreadful Australian "uni" word) now,
which if you had the faintest idea about the subject, you would, of course,
know. Drivel by nic. Drivel by mouth. Empty-minded saddo ...

Arfa

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Everyone has an accent. And if 'standard English' is stuck to
rigorously,
the language would never evolve which would be equally ludicrous.

and be called French ;-)

English does not derive from French. Duh!

a passe comment...

My reference was to the fact that the French attempt rigorously control
their language, and resist attempts to extend it or allow it to evolve.
Hence why they have to borrow English phrases to describe anything
technical etc. Le email etc.



--
Cheers,

John.

No good trying to explain it to him John. Everybody has already had a good
laugh at his inability to understand your subtle humour ... ;-)

Arfa

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...
"Alang" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 08:22:44 -0000, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:


"Alang" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 05 Mar 2009 00:13:58 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yup. The clearest pronunciation of all in the UK comes with an
accent
from the NE of Scotland. Not to be confused with the dialect from
there, obviously. 'BBC perceived pronunciation' is actually quite
poor. Too many words with different meanings sounding the same.
Wales
and whales being the obvious one.

whereas in scotland, its whales and wheels... ;-)

So you consider a cockney and geordie accent the same?

I hope he doesn't.
My mother was raised on Tyneside and spoke very clearly and distinctly
in a local accent. Never lost it and was understood anywhere she went
except by cockneys.

Now if you had said cockney and glaswegian...

And why do some people not pronounce the 'H' in herb and hotel?
Apart from those raised in France.

For the first because they are merkins, for the second because it's
"correct" not to pronounce it, which is why it's "an hotel" not "a
hotel".

Only for french people. In English the 'h' i sounded

It is now but the (old-fashioned) and, some might say, "correct"
prununciation, is without the "h". The fact that you do not think so
merely underlies my point about the dynamics of langauage. It was
certainly regarded as "correct", if posh, when I was a boy.


Mind you it's a long time since I heard the "correct" pronunciation of
Coventry as "Cuventry" on the tv.

I suspect Cuventry is a local usage


No, perhaps the opposite! Ditto my remarks above. The RP BBC guide
pronunciation was "Cuventry" and that was "correct". I very much doubt
that it is now! AFAICR the last time a BBC newsreader used "Cuventry" that
I heard, was in the 1970's.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)


That's an interesting one. I live not far from Coventry, and I have never
heard it pronounced that way. Any idea what the reason for that
pronunciation is? Any connection to the word 'coven' maybe ?

Arfa

Bob Mannix wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bob Mannix wrote:
A note at work yesterday refers to "fora" as the plural of forum.
References are fairly united that, although "fora" is the plural of the
Latin word, the accepted plural is "forums" with "fora" as an
alternative. Which is "correct" today?
If you adopt a word into a language then generally the rules of that
language apply. Hence 'le weekend' etc. Those who wish to use the Latin
plural are simply trying to prove how clever they are.
No, to some of us it is simply the natural and correct way to proceed.

We just know that 'a phenonema' is not correct. It's 'a phenomenon'.


Eh? Of course we do - it's "a phenomenon" and "a number of phenomena" - I
don't think anyone disputes that - what was the point you were making?

Just look at the mess people get into with using data as a singular...
(rather than datum)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...
"Alang" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 08:22:44 -0000, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:


"Alang" wrote in message
m...
On Thu, 05 Mar 2009 00:13:58 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yup. The clearest pronunciation of all in the UK comes with an
accent
from the NE of Scotland. Not to be confused with the dialect from
there, obviously. 'BBC perceived pronunciation' is actually quite
poor. Too many words with different meanings sounding the same.
Wales
and whales being the obvious one.

whereas in scotland, its whales and wheels... ;-)

So you consider a cockney and geordie accent the same?

I hope he doesn't.
My mother was raised on Tyneside and spoke very clearly and distinctly
in a local accent. Never lost it and was understood anywhere she went
except by cockneys.

Now if you had said cockney and glaswegian...

And why do some people not pronounce the 'H' in herb and hotel?
Apart from those raised in France.

For the first because they are merkins, for the second because it's
"correct" not to pronounce it, which is why it's "an hotel" not "a
hotel".

Only for french people. In English the 'h' i sounded

It is now but the (old-fashioned) and, some might say, "correct"
prununciation, is without the "h". The fact that you do not think so
merely underlies my point about the dynamics of langauage. It was
certainly regarded as "correct", if posh, when I was a boy.


Mind you it's a long time since I heard the "correct" pronunciation of
Coventry as "Cuventry" on the tv.

I suspect Cuventry is a local usage


No, perhaps the opposite! Ditto my remarks above. The RP BBC guide
pronunciation was "Cuventry" and that was "correct". I very much doubt
that it is now! AFAICR the last time a BBC newsreader used "Cuventry"
that I heard, was in the 1970's.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)


That's an interesting one. I live not far from Coventry, and I have never
heard it pronounced that way. Any idea what the reason for that
pronunciation is? Any connection to the word 'coven' maybe ?

Arfa

I suspect it was a posh way of distinguishing oneself from the local oiks by
being "correct". I was born in the 50's 15 miles from Coventry. During the
sixties, the pronunciation was occasionally discussed and used in both
forms. The "Cuventry" form died out (for obvious reasons) by the early
1970's. A significant percentage of my grandfather's generation used that
pronunciation but rarely the succeeding ones, so we are talking about what
was common (in RP) pre-WW2 persisting afterwards. The same generation (at
least those who frequented the establishments) would refer to an 'otel
(again, probably to distinguish themselves from those who didn't).

My father, who worked in radio during the war and on cinema sound systems
afterwards, always pronounced "stereo" as "steereo", still listed as an
alternative pronunciation, although he was from Lancaster and never said
barth or grarse but bath and grass with short "a"s, so it wasn't a southern
affectation nor ignorance of the subject, just what he was told was
"correct" earlier in his life.

"Correctness" is a slippery beast, that may not have the parentage one
expects. I prefer a dynamic language where different generations use
different forms - it's more interesting, less snobbish and less judgmental.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Dave
saying something like:

Yup. The clearest pronunciation of all in the UK comes with an accent from
the NE of Scotland.
Not too far North though. I used to work with someone from that area and
that was when I realised how good and clear they spoke. It was somewhere
just above Edinburgh.

Roonaboot Inverness, they used to talk dead clear, like.
Gawd nose what it's like now, with the influx of southerners.

Last time I was in Inverness, I heard a lot of Polish...

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Bob Mannix wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bob Mannix wrote:
A note at work yesterday refers to "fora" as the plural of forum.
References are fairly united that, although "fora" is the plural of
the
Latin word, the accepted plural is "forums" with "fora" as an
alternative. Which is "correct" today?
If you adopt a word into a language then generally the rules of that
language apply. Hence 'le weekend' etc. Those who wish to use the Latin
plural are simply trying to prove how clever they are.
No, to some of us it is simply the natural and correct way to proceed.

We just know that 'a phenonema' is not correct. It's 'a phenomenon'.


Eh? Of course we do - it's "a phenomenon" and "a number of phenomena" - I
don't think anyone disputes that - what was the point you were making?

Just look at the mess people get into with using data as a singular...
(rather than datum)

Granted, but I'm not sure they regard themselves as being in a mess as they
don't notice! I always say "data are", if for no other reason (aside from
correctness) than just to be different!


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 10:50:37 GMT, Roger wrote:

The message
from PeterC contains these words:

When a bit lost in Wales I came across a small reservoir that was shown on
the map but the name on the sign was Dwr Cymru and most of them seem to be
called that - most confusing.

(Found out later that it means 'Birmingham's Water').

I don't speak Welsh either but surely that should translate as Welsh water?

Oh well, they appreciated it in the nearby pub :-)
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

On Thu, 05 Mar 2009 09:16:21 +0000, Mark wrote:

On Thu, 05 Mar 2009 00:43:25 +0000, Stephen Howard
wrote:

On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 14:22:08 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

The current ethos is 'standards make people feel inferior, or superior
and so we shouldn't have any'.

I feel the current ethos seems to be to 'celebrate' the mundane, and
as such that becomes part of the 'public consciousness' - so in that
respect I suppose the statement stands.

It's worse than that IMHO. The current ethos seems also to celebrate
stupidity and the superficial.

Worse still it seems to be unnacceptable to think for oneself
nowadays.

It's agin the law, innit?
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

On Thu, 05 Mar 2009 09:18:48 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Bob Mannix wrote:

Regioanl accents and vocabulary OTOH are one of the things that make the
nation interesting. Vive la difference! (as the continentals might say... or
is it "le"?).

Agreed, that 'standard English' might be a moving target, but that is
not an argument for no standards at all.

The advantage to a 'standard' is that everyone can learn it, but it does
need to be adequate for all puposes - think Times rather than Sun. With too
many and extreme examples there's a risk of incomprehensibility amongst the
majority.

ISTR that, possibly in the '70s, there was a requirement to be able to
speak English to be considered for the Indian cricket team; it would have
been possible to have around 20 languages in 1 team - and none of them
understood by any other team in Test cricket.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 14:52:45 -0000, Bob Mannix wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Bob Mannix wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bob Mannix wrote:
A note at work yesterday refers to "fora" as the plural of forum.
References are fairly united that, although "fora" is the plural of
the
Latin word, the accepted plural is "forums" with "fora" as an
alternative. Which is "correct" today?
If you adopt a word into a language then generally the rules of that
language apply. Hence 'le weekend' etc. Those who wish to use the Latin
plural are simply trying to prove how clever they are.
No, to some of us it is simply the natural and correct way to proceed.

We just know that 'a phenonema' is not correct. It's 'a phenomenon'.


Eh? Of course we do - it's "a phenomenon" and "a number of phenomena" - I
don't think anyone disputes that - what was the point you were making?

Just look at the mess people get into with using data as a singular...
(rather than datum)

Granted, but I'm not sure they regard themselves as being in a mess as they
don't notice! I always say "data are", if for no other reason (aside from
correctness) than just to be different!

There's the typical reporterdroid on news programmes that talks of 'a new
bacteria' being discovered - or manages 'these bacterium'.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Not 'entertainment'. News and so on. Informational programs should not
be hosted by people who obviously lack the ability to speak
grammatically correct english in a clear voice.If their information on
grammar is patently incorrect, what does that say for their information
on anything else?

There are lots of regional accents on TV, that is good thing, but many do
not pronounce the words properly. There is the Geordie financial man on
the TV news who can't pronounce "to"'s. That is a no, no. Northern
Irish say "noi", not "now. Stephen Norris, top knob in the snotty Tory
party, is a Liverpudlian with a Liverpool accent however all is
pronounced correctly, so comes across very well. The accent is usually
fine, except grating Northern Irish, which is difficult to understand for
many - especially foreigners - as the best of times. I recall an
American I know, only half understanding a Northern Irish presenter on
TV, who spoke the words reasonably well.

This snotty uni man is clearly on about "accent", which to his small mind
the only proper way to speak English is with a southern England snotty
uni accent. When this bunch say Hawwwwlt instead of halt - and say they
speak the correct way. Cheeky *******s.

Is estuary English Cockney?

You just can't resist pulling politics and class prejudice into it, can
you. Everyone from the lowest educated council house kid to privileged
public school kids go to university (not that dreadful Australian "uni"
word) now, which if you had the faintest idea about the subject, you
would, of course, know. Drivel by nic. Drivel by mouth. Empty-minded saddo
...

But is estuary English Cockney?