In message , Doctor Drivel
writes

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , Tim Lamb
writes
In message , nightjar
writes

"Tim S" wrote in message
...
S Viemeister coughed up some electrons that declared:

Lead and led are often misused.
"I" where "me" should be used.
"would of" "had of" "could of"

They should return to teaching Latin... At least you leave with the
concept
that something called "grammar" exists.

While I did study Latin, we also had one entire year of English Language
tuition devoted to grammar. It was worth 15 percent in the O level
and our
teacher worked on the principle that, if we got full marks on the grammar
question, it was virtually impossible to score so badly on essay and
précis
as to fail the exam. It also helped us to prepare for the Use of English
exam, which was a university entrance requirement.

Likewise at a county grammar. Teachers still in their demob suits and
either not very able or they were dealing with poor material. Latin
was an entrance requirement for university but I was ejected from the
group after one year.

Living in Hertfordshire, I have got used to *must ov* and *off ov*.
The latter relating to some minor TV celebrity.

My bete noir, already mentioned, is the BBC and misuse of bought/brought!

Can you borrow me a fiver?

Maxie, I never knew you were so broke! If I saw you in the street I
would give you a fiver Maxie. I would give it to you. If all I had in
the world was two pies I would give you one. Did the bailiffs take your
pies?

Maxie, my heart goes out to you. How do you feel Maxie? How do you
feel. Of course, next is the gutter.


NURSE - drivel's colostomy bag needs changing, along with his meds

--
geoff

On Thu, 05 Mar 2009 00:23:21 +0000, Dave
wrote:

Clive George wrote:


What's the "correct" pronunciation of Castle, Grass, etc then?

I would think that would depend a lot on which part of England you live in.

The 'a' in both words would be pronounced as long soft ones in the
South. Up here, in the North, we use the harder short way.

Grass, in the South would come over as 'graaass, where as in Lancashire
it would come over as 'grass' the 'a' would sound more like the a in has.

What I can't understand is why the South has not got to grips with the
term 'bacon butty'? " granddaughters live in Portsmouth and everytime
they visit we have to stop them saying a bacon sandwhich and get them to
call it a bacon butty.

Look on the internet and it is a common term when describing 2 pieces of
bread, buttered and served with bacon between. I was on a web site this
afternoon promoting bacon and even they called it a butty.

Strangely enough you're more likely to hear 'bacon sarnie' ( or sarny
) down here in the south - but I doubt you'll ever hear 'chip
sandwich' or 'chip sarnie'...it's always been 'chip butty'.

I did once hear a reference to a bacon stotty in Southampton.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard
Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Everyone has an accent. And if 'standard English' is stuck to
rigorously, the language would never evolve which would be equally
ludicrous.

and be called French ;-)

English does not derive from French. Duh!

Whoosh...


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 00:16:20 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
net...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Everyone has an accent. And if 'standard English' is stuck to rigorously,
the language would never evolve which would be equally ludicrous.

and be called French ;-)

English does not derive from French. Duh!

Tell that to the Queen....



--
Stephen Howard
Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk

In message , Stephen Howard
writes
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 00:16:20 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
snet...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Everyone has an accent. And if 'standard English' is stuck to rigorously,
the language would never evolve which would be equally ludicrous.

and be called French ;-)

English does not derive from French. Duh!

Tell that to the Queen....

Does she do french ?


--
geoff

Stephen Howard wrote:

On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 14:22:08 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The day the BBC allowed some of those dreadful common oiks into the
newsrooms was the the day standards went out of the window.
The whole country used to be grateful to have a single standard, where
they could hear their betters speak and aspire for their offspring to
have a decent education and be able to speak like that also.

Its all part of the 'lets pretend that the country can be run and
governed by people who are as stupid as the worst member of the
electorate'

So you actually think an accent reflects intelligence or ability?


No, but it reflects an adherence to standards that is in itself
reasonably laudable. And something intelligent people understand the
need for.

Bang!
Ah, but what standards?
Was a time when starting a sentence with a conjunction would have
marked you down as an illiterate oaf ( the irony here being that my
spellchecker corrected my spelling of illiterate ).
That's the rub really, how d'you define a standard for something so
fluid - and what happens when the standard-bearers are flying the
wrong flag?

As with most discussions about language/grammar it's as well to take
a gun and shoot yourself in the foot before you enter the debate - it
saves time ( see above ).

The current ethos is 'standards make people feel inferior, or superior
and so we shouldn't have any'.

I feel the current ethos seems to be to 'celebrate' the mundane, and
as such that becomes part of the 'public consciousness' - so in that
respect I suppose the statement stands.

On the flip side it works both ways.
I was browsing in a charity shop recently and my attention was caught
by a rather vociferous child who was rooting through a box of toys.
I'd say he was around six or seven years old, and as he pulled out a
certain toy he exclaimed in a painfully cultured accent "Oh, this is
broken - this will never do!".
He wittered on at some length along the same lines, and I couldn't
help but feel that he was old before his time.
The innocence of childhood is such a fragile thing - and whether your
weapon of choice is a baseball bat or a rod of steel makes little
difference in the long run.

I guess there's a natural balance - one we've perhaps lost touch with
in recent years - but then again it's perhaps always been that way.
The Pythons with their philosophising washerwomen spring to mind.

Regards,


A TV reporter has turned up recently with the unbelievably marvellous
(to me!) name of 'Damien Grammaticus'?. First time I heard him report
I instantly knew his educational background, his university, his
parents, his wealth, his 'class'. Quick Google and yep I was correct.
My big problem is that as a working class oik, dragged up within a
strong socialist environment and tutored to regard his class as 'the
enemy', I find I greatly prefer his type of standard diction, as
compared to that of 'estuary english', or nearly unintelligable Irish
accents that are turning up on the telly rather too often.

On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 01:16:08 +0000, geoff wrote:

In message , Stephen Howard
writes
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 00:16:20 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
usnet...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Everyone has an accent. And if 'standard English' is stuck to rigorously,
the language would never evolve which would be equally ludicrous.

and be called French ;-)

English does not derive from French. Duh!

Tell that to the Queen....

Does she do french ?

She didn't in the past, but she certainly does now...

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard
Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Arfa Daily wrote:
"Frank Erskine" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:24:52 +0000, Dave
wrote:

The Medway Handyman wrote:

Garage around here with 'Keep Cleer' painted on the doors.
That reminds me of my early apprenticeship days.

I was designated to learn/work in an offshoot of the tool room in a
press shop. They had a cupboard there and on the front were the words

Kee
Pout

There's a local print firm near here with an enormous sign on the side
of their building advertising, inter alia, "Vehical Signs".

--
Frank Erskine

My god ! It's even worse than I suspected ... Lots of funny stories
here - until, that is, you actually take time to stop and think about
them, and then it stops being quite so funny. I am seriously saddened
that a once great teaching system, has now reached the point where it is
turning out people who know so little as to not realise that these things
are wrong. A lad I know is now a teacher himself. He used to come to our
house (he was friends with our son) and say "I brought a new game for my
computer today" and I used to say "No (Andy), you *bought* a new game,
and then you *brought* it home". I wonder how many kids in North London
are now growing up with that little gem in their limited comprehension of
the language ?

Such is the way language evolves - there will come a time where their way
is "correct" and the right way is archaic.

--
Cheers,

John.

Happening already, methinks ... Both my girls used to come home from their
secondary school telling tales of other girls in the year being or acting
"facety". It took me a long time to get to the bottom of this one. Turned
out it was a complete mis-pronunciation of the word 'feisty', that had just
passed that way into their vocabulary. I rather suspect that it was actually
one of the teachers that helped it on its way there, too ...

Arfa

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 17:21:08 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

snip
A TV reporter has turned up recently with the unbelievably marvellous
(to me!) name of 'Damien Grammaticus'?. First time I heard him report
I instantly knew his educational background, his university, his
parents, his wealth, his 'class'. Quick Google and yep I was correct.
My big problem is that as a working class oik, dragged up within a
strong socialist environment and tutored to regard his class as 'the
enemy', I find I greatly prefer his type of standard diction, as
compared to that of 'estuary english', or nearly unintelligable Irish
accents that are turning up on the telly rather too often.

I rather like that Neil Nunes chap that popped up on Radio 4 - somehow
the news and weather always seem much brighter when it's announced by
his rich, Caribbean basso.

Makes a nice change from the squeaky ladies that just seem to make me
want to go 'Neep neep neep' ( I don't know why, that's just the way it
is ).

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard
Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , Tim Lamb
writes
In message , nightjar
writes

"Tim S" wrote in message
...
S Viemeister coughed up some electrons that declared:

Lead and led are often misused.
"I" where "me" should be used.
"would of" "had of" "could of"

They should return to teaching Latin... At least you leave with the
concept
that something called "grammar" exists.

While I did study Latin, we also had one entire year of English Language
tuition devoted to grammar. It was worth 15 percent in the O level and
our
teacher worked on the principle that, if we got full marks on the
grammar
question, it was virtually impossible to score so badly on essay and
précis
as to fail the exam. It also helped us to prepare for the Use of English
exam, which was a university entrance requirement.

Likewise at a county grammar. Teachers still in their demob suits and
either not very able or they were dealing with poor material. Latin was
an entrance requirement for university but I was ejected from the group
after one year.

Living in Hertfordshire, I have got used to *must ov* and *off ov*. The
latter relating to some minor TV celebrity.

My bete noir, already mentioned, is the BBC and misuse of bought/brought!

Can you borrow me a fiver?

Maxie, I never knew you were so broke! If I saw you in the street I would
give you a fiver Maxie. I would give it to you. If all I had in the world
was two pies I would give you one. Did the bailiffs take your pies?

Maxie, my heart goes out to you. How do you feel Maxie? How do you feel.
Of course, next is the gutter.



You're not the guy who wrote a complaint letter to Branson, and got it
published in the Sun are you ? That's exactly the dreadful style which that
was written in ...

"Would you like it Richard ? Would you ? I don't think you would Richard.
Really, Richard, I don't think you would ..."

Arfa

"PeterC" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 17:18:05 +0000, Ian White wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Lath/lathe

Not sure they are not alternatives in the case of strips of wood.

Only to some UK builders and DIYers.

If you want a "lathe and plaster" ceiling, on your own head be it.

It'd give you a nasty turn.
--
Peter.
It's not rocket science, you know.


LOL ! Cracker !

Arfa

On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 01:47:59 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:


"PeterC" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 17:18:05 +0000, Ian White wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Lath/lathe

Not sure they are not alternatives in the case of strips of wood.

Only to some UK builders and DIYers.

If you want a "lathe and plaster" ceiling, on your own head be it.

It'd give you a nasty turn.
--
Peter.
It's not rocket science, you know.


LOL ! Cracker !

Made me chuckle...

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard
Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk

"Owain" wrote in message
et...
Bob Mannix wrote:
I personally dislike the use of "regular" to mean "frequent".
I myself bet regularly on the horses - once a year.

My lease requires me to clean the windows regularly.

I myself, personally, clean them on an approximately about every ten
yearly basis.

Owain



I used to talk proper England when I were a little children ... :-)

Arfa

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Everyone has an accent. And if 'standard English' is stuck to
rigorously,
the language would never evolve which would be equally ludicrous.

and be called French ;-)

English does not derive from French. Duh!

a passe comment...

My reference was to the fact that the French attempt rigorously control
their language, and resist attempts to extend it or allow it to evolve.
Hence why they have to borrow English phrases to describe anything
technical etc. Le email etc.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember geoff saying
something like:

Maxie, my heart goes out to you. How do you feel Maxie? How do you
feel. Of course, next is the gutter.


NURSE - drivel's colostomy bag needs changing

I think he's been sucking on it - again.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember PeterC
saying something like:

If you want a "lathe and plaster" ceiling, on your own head be it.

It'd give you a nasty turn.

And could screw you over.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember geoff saying
something like:

English does not derive from French. Duh!

Tell that to the Queen....

Does she do french ?

Lady with large French chest, seeks polisher.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Dave
saying something like:

Yup. The clearest pronunciation of all in the UK comes with an accent from
the NE of Scotland.

Not too far North though. I used to work with someone from that area and
that was when I realised how good and clear they spoke. It was somewhere
just above Edinburgh.

Roonaboot Inverness, they used to talk dead clear, like.
Gawd nose what it's like now, with the influx of southerners.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember mike saying
something like:

If only it was possible to remove arseholes from local councils.


If only it *were* possible to remove arseholes from local councils.

It's subjunctive.

Well now; I'd run that one through my head as I typed it and decided to
go for 'was' as it fitted in better in de vernacular, like.
Eeengelish as she eveolves, see, meester?

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

The whole country used to be grateful to have a single standard, where
they could hear their betters speak and aspire for their offspring to
have a decent education and be able to speak like that also.

Wow, such a sycophant. This one will make a good case study.

Will you sit down and be quiet, Drivel!
Listen to your elders and betters and you might learn something.

On Thu, 05 Mar 2009 00:13:58 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yup. The clearest pronunciation of all in the UK comes with an accent
from the NE of Scotland. Not to be confused with the dialect from
there, obviously. 'BBC perceived pronunciation' is actually quite
poor. Too many words with different meanings sounding the same. Wales
and whales being the obvious one.

whereas in scotland, its whales and wheels... ;-)

So you consider a cockney and geordie accent the same?

I hope he doesn't.
My mother was raised on Tyneside and spoke very clearly and distinctly
in a local accent. Never lost it and was understood anywhere she went
except by cockneys.

Now if you had said cockney and glaswegian...

And why do some people not pronounce the 'H' in herb and hotel?
Apart from those raised in France.

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 22:22:45 -0000, "Clive George"
wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
.. .
Alang wrote:
On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 14:22:08 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The day the BBC allowed some of those dreadful common oiks into the
newsrooms was the the day standards went out of the window.
The whole country used to be grateful to have a single standard,
where
they could hear their betters speak and aspire for their offspring to
have a decent education and be able to speak like that also.
Its all part of the 'lets pretend that the country can be run and
governed by people who are as stupid as the worst member of the
electorate'
So you actually think an accent reflects intelligence or ability?

No, but it reflects an adherence to standards that is in itself
reasonably laudable. And something intelligent people understand the
need for.

So you want someone to use your accent rather than just be able to
speak clearly and use the words correctly and in the correct order.
Possibly you hate Wilfred Pickles
The current ethos is 'standards make people feel inferior, or superior
and so we shouldn't have any'.

I'd trade a bit of wounded or misplaced vanity for competence any day.

Competence in the use of language is not dependant on accent. The
clearest speaker I ever heard was a Scot from the Northern part of
Scotland. He did not use words like loranorder or droring unlike some
RP speakers we hear on the broadcasts. Why do Southerners confuse batter
with butter?

Not talking about accent. Dav was, it seems. Its correct pronunciation and
grammar, that's all.

What's the "correct" pronunciation of Castle, Grass, etc then? The old BBC
RP would only have it one way, whereas there's at least two valid ways of
saying those words. Accent is very pertinent to pronunciation.

Northern usage is correct.
The habit of southerners in using a long 'A' so it sounds like Robert
Newton doing Long John Silver is wrong.

"Alang" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 05 Mar 2009 00:13:58 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yup. The clearest pronunciation of all in the UK comes with an accent
from the NE of Scotland. Not to be confused with the dialect from
there, obviously. 'BBC perceived pronunciation' is actually quite
poor. Too many words with different meanings sounding the same. Wales
and whales being the obvious one.

whereas in scotland, its whales and wheels... ;-)

So you consider a cockney and geordie accent the same?

I hope he doesn't.
My mother was raised on Tyneside and spoke very clearly and distinctly
in a local accent. Never lost it and was understood anywhere she went
except by cockneys.

Now if you had said cockney and glaswegian...

And why do some people not pronounce the 'H' in herb and hotel?
Apart from those raised in France.

For the first because they are merkins, for the second because it's
"correct" not to pronounce it, which is why it's "an hotel" not "a hotel".
Mind you it's a long time since I heard the "correct" pronunciation of
Coventry as "Cuventry" on the tv.

A note at work yesterday refers to "fora" as the plural of forum. References
are fairly united that, although "fora" is the plural of the Latin word, the
accepted plural is "forums" with "fora" as an alternative. Which is
"correct" today?

"Correct" English is, do the dismay of the
ultra-conservative-with-a-small-c-(and-probably-a-big-C-as-well), a moving
target. There would be few, if any, now, who would regard "Coventry" as the
incorrect pronunciation, or, indeed, an aspirated "hotel" as incorrect or
who would not find the use of "Cuventry", "'otel", "fora" etc not correct
but merely perverse.

Regioanl accents and vocabulary OTOH are one of the things that make the
nation interesting. Vive la difference! (as the continentals might say... or
is it "le"?).


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

This is a good thing. As with a business, if it's not growing, it's dying.

In article , Dave
scribeth thus
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The day the BBC allowed some of those dreadful common oiks into the
newsrooms was the the day standards went out of the window. The
whole country used to be grateful to have a single standard, where
they could hear their betters speak and aspire for their offspring
to have a decent education and be able to speak like that also.
Its all part of the 'lets pretend that the country can be run and
governed by people who are as stupid as the worst member of the
electorate'
So you actually think an accent reflects intelligence or ability?


No, but it reflects an adherence to standards that is in itself
reasonably laudable. And something intelligent people understand the
need for.

The current ethos is 'standards make people feel inferior, or
superior and so we shouldn't have any'.

I'd trade a bit of wounded or misplaced vanity for competence any day.

Obviously you've not given this much thought. 'The standard BBC accent'
which was referred to was nothing like the best choice if intelligibility
was the issue. It was simply the one of the upper classes in the south of
England. And when heard now sounds very dated.

Everyone has an accent. And if 'standard English' is stuck to rigorously,
the language would never evolve which would be equally ludicrous.

Its not 'accent'. Its correct and clear enunciation and pronunciation.

Like John Thaw in Morse. I could listen to him talking for quite a long
time.

I've no objection to 'Gie's a wee dram' instead of 'Might I have a small
scotch'

Like Kevin Whately, again in Morse. One has no accent, the other has a
North East accent, but both enunciate very well.

But not on national radio, or TV, when the aim is to reach the largest
number of people.

So why do we have to put up with Johnathon Woss and that other
Lancashire accented announcer on one of those police chase programms?

Woss can't be arsed to use the letter R and the other persistently uses
the glottal stop instead of the letter T.

Dave

And that one on Channel 4 from somewhere north of Watford..

Thank gawd that BBC radio Four has the delightful silken voiced Charlotte
Green))....
--
Tony Sayer

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , Doctor Drivel
writes

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , Tim Lamb
writes
In message , nightjar
writes

"Tim S" wrote in message
k...
S Viemeister coughed up some electrons that declared:

Lead and led are often misused.
"I" where "me" should be used.
"would of" "had of" "could of"

They should return to teaching Latin... At least you leave with the
concept
that something called "grammar" exists.

While I did study Latin, we also had one entire year of English
Language
tuition devoted to grammar. It was worth 15 percent in the O level and
our
teacher worked on the principle that, if we got full marks on the
grammar
question, it was virtually impossible to score so badly on essay and
précis
as to fail the exam. It also helped us to prepare for the Use of
English
exam, which was a university entrance requirement.

Likewise at a county grammar. Teachers still in their demob suits and
either not very able or they were dealing with poor material. Latin was
an entrance requirement for university but I was ejected from the group
after one year.

Living in Hertfordshire, I have got used to *must ov* and *off ov*. The
latter relating to some minor TV celebrity.

My bete noir, already mentioned, is the BBC and misuse of
bought/brought!

Can you borrow me a fiver?

Maxie, I never knew you were so broke! If I saw you in the street I
would give you a fiver Maxie. I would give it to you. If all I had in
the world was two pies I would give you one. Did the bailiffs take your
pies?

Maxie, my heart goes out to you. How do you feel Maxie? How do you feel.
Of course, next is the gutter.

NURSE

Maxie, you are typing from an institution. Is this a new form of Workhouse?
Maxie you are not quite in the gutter......yet. Maxie, I would still give
you a fiver and not want it back. Maxie, I hope the pies are good where you
are. Maxie, I still think you are fantastic. Hang on in Maxie, hang on in.
It will get better.

"Stephen Howard" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 00:16:20 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
snet...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Everyone has an accent. And if 'standard English' is stuck to
rigorously,
the language would never evolve which would be equally ludicrous.

and be called French ;-)

English does not derive from French. Duh!

Tell that to the Queen....



--
Stephen Howard
Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk

She is a foreigner anyway. I would get rid of her tomorrow, the whole lot of
them.

wrote in message
...

'estuary english', or nearly unintelligable Irish
accents that are turning up on the telly rather too often.

All appalling. Those Northern Irish accents which are everywhere, are
grating. Must be got rid of.

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , Tim Lamb
writes
In message , nightjar
writes

"Tim S" wrote in message
k...
S Viemeister coughed up some electrons that declared:

Lead and led are often misused.
"I" where "me" should be used.
"would of" "had of" "could of"

They should return to teaching Latin... At least you leave with the
concept
that something called "grammar" exists.

While I did study Latin, we also had one entire year of English
Language
tuition devoted to grammar. It was worth 15 percent in the O level and
our
teacher worked on the principle that, if we got full marks on the
grammar
question, it was virtually impossible to score so badly on essay and
précis
as to fail the exam. It also helped us to prepare for the Use of
English
exam, which was a university entrance requirement.

Likewise at a county grammar. Teachers still in their demob suits and
either not very able or they were dealing with poor material. Latin was
an entrance requirement for university but I was ejected from the group
after one year.

Living in Hertfordshire, I have got used to *must ov* and *off ov*. The
latter relating to some minor TV celebrity.

My bete noir, already mentioned, is the BBC and misuse of
bought/brought!

Can you borrow me a fiver?

Maxie, I never knew you were so broke! If I saw you in the street I
would give you a fiver Maxie. I would give it to you. If all I had in
the world was two pies I would give you one. Did the bailiffs take your
pies?

Maxie, my heart goes out to you. How do you feel Maxie? How do you feel.
Of course, next is the gutter.

You're not the guy who wrote a complaint letter to Branson, and got it
published in the Sun are you ? That's exactly the dreadful style which
that was written in ...

"Would you like it Richard ? Would you ? I don't think you would Richard.
Really, Richard, I don't think you would ..."

Is Richard short of fiver too?

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember geoff saying
something like:

Maxie, my heart goes out to you. How do you feel Maxie? How do you
feel. Of course, next is the gutter.


NURSE - drivel's colostomy bag needs changing

I think he's been sucking on it - again.

Maxie, this low-life would never lend you a fiver! I would give you the
fiver.

In article ,
Bob Mannix wrote:
A note at work yesterday refers to "fora" as the plural of forum.
References are fairly united that, although "fora" is the plural of the
Latin word, the accepted plural is "forums" with "fora" as an
alternative. Which is "correct" today?

If you adopt a word into a language then generally the rules of that
language apply. Hence 'le weekend' etc. Those who wish to use the Latin
plural are simply trying to prove how clever they are. The exception might
be where the original word that is adopted is already a plural.

--
*Bigamy is having one wife too many - monogamy is the same

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

The whole country used to be grateful to have a single standard, where
they could hear their betters speak and aspire for their offspring to
have a decent education and be able to speak like that also.

Wow, such a sycophant. This one will make a good case study.

Will you sit down and be quiet, Drivel!
Listen to your elders and betters and you might learn something.

Such a sycophant. Fascinating.

In message , Dave
writes
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Alang wrote:
Competence in the use of language is not dependant on accent. The
clearest speaker I ever heard was a Scot from the Northern part of
Scotland. He did not use words like loranorder or droring unlike some
RP speakers we hear on the broadcasts.
Yup. The clearest pronunciation of all in the UK comes with an
accent from
the NE of Scotland.

Not too far North though. I used to work with someone from that area
and that was when I realised how good and clear they spoke. It was
somewhere just above Edinburgh.

To borrow a phrase, in Glasgow you may have to get them to spit it on
the wall, wait for it to dry and then read.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

John Rumm wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Everyone has an accent. And if 'standard English' is stuck to
rigorously,
the language would never evolve which would be equally ludicrous.

and be called French ;-)

English does not derive from French. Duh!

a passe comment...

My reference was to the fact that the French attempt rigorously
control their language, and resist attempts to extend it or allow it
to evolve. Hence why they have to borrow English phrases to describe
anything technical etc. Le email etc.

And the other way around if you are Kenneth Williams...

Honi soit qui mal y pense
Fait toujours reconnaissance
Hammersmith Palais des dances
Badinage, ma crepe suzette.

Double entendre restaurante
Jacques Cousteau, Yves St Laurent
Ou est la plume de ma tante?
C'est la vie, ma crepe suzette.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
She is a foreigner anyway. I would get rid of her tomorrow, the whole
lot of them.

A xenophobe to add to all the other 'qualities'.

--
*Why do the two "sanction"s (noun and verb) mean opposites?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 23:53:19 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

geoff wrote:

My bete noir, already mentioned, is the BBC and misuse of bought/brought!

Can you borrow me a fiver?

or using "itch" in place of "scratch"

When we moved here my children were still in infant school. The local
usage they came back with was 'can I lend a xxx' meaning either 'will
you lend me a xxx' or 'may I borrow a xxx'. Even my wife started
adopting local usage.

Dave wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The day the BBC allowed some of those dreadful common oiks into the
newsrooms was the the day standards went out of the window. The
whole country used to be grateful to have a single standard, where
they could hear their betters speak and aspire for their offspring
to have a decent education and be able to speak like that also.
Its all part of the 'lets pretend that the country can be run and
governed by people who are as stupid as the worst member of the
electorate'
So you actually think an accent reflects intelligence or ability?


No, but it reflects an adherence to standards that is in itself
reasonably laudable. And something intelligent people understand the
need for.

The current ethos is 'standards make people feel inferior, or
superior and so we shouldn't have any'.

I'd trade a bit of wounded or misplaced vanity for competence any day.

Obviously you've not given this much thought. 'The standard BBC accent'
which was referred to was nothing like the best choice if
intelligibility
was the issue. It was simply the one of the upper classes in the
south of
England. And when heard now sounds very dated.

Everyone has an accent. And if 'standard English' is stuck to
rigorously,
the language would never evolve which would be equally ludicrous.

Its not 'accent'. Its correct and clear enunciation and pronunciation.

Like John Thaw in Morse. I could listen to him talking for quite a long
time.

I've no objection to 'Gie's a wee dram' instead of 'Might I have a
small scotch'

Like Kevin Whately, again in Morse. One has no accent, the other has a
North East accent, but both enunciate very well.

But not on national radio, or TV, when the aim is to reach the largest
number of people.

So why do we have to put up with Johnathon Woss and that other
Lancashire accented announcer on one of those police chase programms?

Woss can't be arsed to use the letter R and the other persistently uses
the glottal stop instead of the letter T.


Look, if someone is an 'entertainer' then regional dialects are and can
be part of that entertainment. Rab C Nesbitt springs to mind.

What I object to is anchor men and so on speaking apalling english.



Dave

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Everyone has an accent. And if 'standard English' is stuck to
rigorously, the language would never evolve which would be equally
ludicrous.

Its not 'accent'. Its correct and clear enunciation and pronunciation.

Everyone has an accent.

I've no objection to 'Gie's a wee dram' instead of 'Might I have a small
scotch'

That's dialect.

But not on national radio, or TV, when the aim is to reach the largest
number of people.

So you want all dramas played by actors using your favourite accent?

Not 'entertainment'. News and so on. Informational programs should not
be hosted by people who obviously lack the ability to speak
grammatically correct english in a clear voice.If their information on
grammar is patently incorrect, what does that say for their information
on anything else?

Clive George wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Alang wrote:
On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 14:22:08 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The day the BBC allowed some of those dreadful common oiks into the
newsrooms was the the day standards went out of the window.
The whole country used to be grateful to have a single standard,
where
they could hear their betters speak and aspire for their offspring to
have a decent education and be able to speak like that also.
Its all part of the 'lets pretend that the country can be run and
governed by people who are as stupid as the worst member of the
electorate'
So you actually think an accent reflects intelligence or ability?

No, but it reflects an adherence to standards that is in itself
reasonably laudable. And something intelligent people understand the
need for.
So you want someone to use your accent rather than just be able to
speak clearly and use the words correctly and in the correct order.
Possibly you hate Wilfred Pickles
The current ethos is 'standards make people feel inferior, or superior
and so we shouldn't have any'.

I'd trade a bit of wounded or misplaced vanity for competence any day.
Competence in the use of language is not dependant on accent. The
clearest speaker I ever heard was a Scot from the Northern part of
Scotland. He did not use words like loranorder or droring unlike some
RP speakers we hear on the broadcasts. Why do Southerners confuse batter
with butter?
Not talking about accent. Dav was, it seems. Its correct pronunciation and
grammar, that's all.

What's the "correct" pronunciation of Castle, Grass, etc then? The old BBC
RP would only have it one way, whereas there's at least two valid ways of
saying those words. Accent is very pertinent to pronunciation.


I don't care, as long as its comprehnsible. And unambigous, and
gramatically correct.

I.e car'el and gra' are unacceptable. Mere change of vowel sounds is not
the same as eliding consonants.

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 20:48:31 +0000, geoff wrote:

Can you borrow me a fiver?

using 'loan' in place of lend or borrow - can be confusing if there's not
nuch context.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

On Thu, 05 Mar 2009 07:38:29 +0000, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember PeterC
saying something like:

If you want a "lathe and plaster" ceiling, on your own head be it.

It'd give you a nasty turn.

And could screw you over.

I guard my tailstock!
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.