On 04 Feb 2009 22:29:06 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
me here writes:
Bake taters in the microwave: uses 25% of
the enrgy (IIRC)

Remember to not eat the skins if you only microwaved them.

er, why, please?
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

Steve wrote:
On Wed, 4 Feb 2009 00:13:17 -0000, JDT2Q wrote:

Any suggestions ??

You don't say how much is actually electric of that bill, I would
expect gas to be the majority, but assuming you are only targeting
the electric I would start by grabbing a whole house energy meter
(owl, eco-eye, efergy etc). They are not 100% accurate, they don't
need to be, they are only a quick method of targeting whats taking
the power.

Also re-switch the computer and tv gear onto separate gang plugs where
needed so that one whole set can turn off with one switch and leave
on the sky+/recorder as needed. That alone saved me £10 per month.

Your likely to find that things like the bell use almost nothing, and
the bigger items like the fridge/freezer that are using the most, but
you may find others that catch you out. The meter helps find what
the usage is, but is also helpful in enforcing a habit of switching
things off, or using things less (like a kettle etc)

Talking about the kettle, I am amazed how many folk still use a kettle to
make a cup of coffee or tea. Shove a shovel of coffee granules ( I just tip
the required amount direct from the jar being a former lab. chemist and
still able to assess volumes), zap the microwave (90 seconds in our unit of
850W) and bingo. If tea, then similar but teabag inserted after heating!
Shorter time than in the kettle, not heating the kettle with minimal energy
heating the turntable.

me here wrote:
On Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:49:14 -0000, "Tim Downie"
wrote:



How much loft insulation? Depending on how long ago it was done
your loft could be well below current recommendations. In terms of
value for money, it's a good place to start if it needs topping up.
My thought exactly: a day too late tho - great time to see how long
the snow stays on your roof and to find "hotspots". Almost all the
dormer bungalows around here lost their snow WAY before
'regular-roofed' houses, and the benefit of my recently increased loft
insulation was readily apparent. May well be that the insulation in
the OPs 'roof' isn't very effective at all - nowhere near current
standards.

If you have flat rooves built a while ago (in the 70's in my case)
you'll have an inch of fibreglass and that's it. That's costing me
£100 a year at least I reckon. I have 50m2 of ground floor extension
like that - it'll cost me a well over a grand to back-fill with
Celotex/reboard & plaster so it's not quite worth it yet.

Oh, and tumble driers: absolute energy oigs. If you have Economy 7
make sure you run them overnight. I have an 'A' rated drier which
dries with cold air - takes 4x as long but uses 1/3rd the energy. I
run that overnight on economy 7.

Our dishwasher and washing machine use hot water from the combi boiler
on short pipe runs (WM is right next to the boiler) and so don't use
(peak rate) electricity to heat their water.

Kettles: only boil what you need; keep lids on when you boil veg.
rinse hand-wash dishes in cold water after a swill in a bowl of hot,
not under running hot water. Do a lot of hand washing up at once:
start with the cleanest things (glasses, cutting boards, cups) then
move gradually to the dirtier things, even at the end of the wash the
water should be warm enought to deal with grease in frying pans and
roasting trays.

Don't heat the whole damn oven to cook a couple of silly burgers just
because the instuctions say you can. Fry them or buy something that
isn't so wasteful on energy. Bake taters in the microwave: uses 25% of
the enrgy (IIRC) ditto with veg.


However, in my experience the biggest consumer of energy in the whole
house is the wife. While I wear two shirts, a sweater and two pairs
of socks, she wants to swan around in her nighty.

I agree with all but part of the last paragraph. When we were younger and my
wife was a housewife by choice staying at home with the kids, I was out
working both in and outdoors. I would come home in winter, from a warm
comfortable car to find the house unbearably warm. Now that the kids are
adults, she helps get disabled kids to and from school, walks the dog
several times a day and can cope with the house at a lower temperature than
me!

Why oh why can she not understand that closing doors between rooms conserves
the heat? I'll come home to find that virtually all doors are open and that
the CH is working hard!

In article ,
PeterC writes:
On 04 Feb 2009 22:29:06 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
me here writes:
Bake taters in the microwave: uses 25% of
the enrgy (IIRC)

Remember to not eat the skins if you only microwaved them.

er, why, please?

There's a toxin in potato skins which is destroyed by cooking.
However, microwaving doesn't cook the skins well enough to do
so, so there's a risk you'll end up eating some.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In message et, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:34:47 +0000, Geoff Lane wrote:

Bake taters in the microwave: uses 25% of the enrgy (IIRC) ditto with
veg.

Don't taste as good though, can't beat crispy skins

Cook 'em through in the microwave and crisp the skins in the oven. You'll
still use less power as the oven will only be on for 15 mins rather than
the 45 to an hour for baking spuds normally.

Yeah, but it's still not right though, probably because the skin gets
sort of surface crispy, but you don't get a nice properly thick and
crispy skin like what we like in this house
--
Chris French

On Feb 3, 6:13*pm, "JDT2Q" wrote:
Hi group,

Today I completed the monthly on line meter readings submission for my
energy supplier and was presented with a bill for about £450 for the past
quarter.
I was amassed.
The bill is paid by monthly direct debit and it just about flatted the
accumulated credit in our account since our last bill.
No doubt the supplier will increase my approx £110 per month direct debit as
we are not out of the winter period yet.
The bill is for both gas and electricity.

We switched suppliers a couple of years ago using Uswitch so we are not with
the historical suppliers for the area.
I will be comparing prices again soon once the playing field is level.

Our house is a semi dormer bungalow ( not a very big one ) in the North
West.
We have cavity wall insulation, loft insulation, double glazing, combi
boiler ( 2 yrs old ), and programmable room stat.
Most of our light fittings are CFL's.
We have a dishwasher, tumble drier and electric oven with gas hob.

It's difficult to see how we could economise more than we do on the high
consumption appliances - especially gas.

I am starting to look at the electrical consumption of low consumption
items.
For example, the door bell transformer is lowish consumption but powered up
24/7/365 and it is an old style one and not a Switched Mode Power Supply.
I know from my electronic engineering training that the 'old style'
transformers are relatively inefficient compared to SMPS - iron losses and
such.

This is very much a 'started today' project but on basic calculations if the
bell transformer consumed 100mA ( not yet measured it so I may be way out )
and it's powered up 8736 hrs per year ( all year ) and my supplier charges
9p per kilowatt hour ( excl VAT ) then it's costing us £18.86 per year just
for the bell transformer.
Our alarm system also has a 'traditional' PSU and is powered up all year.
That is likely to consume more than the bell transformer as equipment IS
being powered 24/7 so, on assumed consumption figures ( mA ), we are now up
to more than £37 per year wasted, *much of it on iron loss.
I know that most modern electronic devices/appliances use SMPU power
supplies.

I'm thinking of swapping power supplies for these 'traditional' items to
SMPU's - easy for the door bell, not as easy for the alarm system.

We have several modern devices powered up 24/7/365, cable modem, router,
network switch and the usual videos, TVs etc.
I am thinking of putting these on electronic timeswitches to power them down
between, say, 01.00 am to 10.00 am.

I know the real killers are tumble driers, cookers, washing machines etc as
regards electricity consumption.

Basically I'm looking for any other ideas to reduce our consumption based on
the info I have given.

All of the low consumption items take little power individually but added
together and viewed over 12 months powered up time, savings with possible
power unit conversion could be worth while.

BTW I have loads of redundant SMPS units to use so no capital outlay.

Time to get out my AC current meter and calculate just what each is costing
us - then add it up.

Any suggestions ??

--
The eMail address used in newsgroups is invalid - reply to group only for me
to see.

Are Kill-A-Watt meters sold there, they are very accurate and good for
testing loads over days like refrigerators to see actual usage. They
record hours and Kwh used. Of coourse you use Cfls and flourescents
not incandesant lights.

WOW! Thanks for all the replies.

I've read them all and some good points are made.

BTW the elec:gas ratio is elec £172 : gas £288

Re our loft insulation.
The insulation is only the depth of the ceiling joists as the loft is
boarded onto the joists.
For storage use only - heat not required up there.
The front and rear dormers ( full house width ) flat roof insulation depth
is not known - there may be none as the house was built in 1968.
I think this would be difficult to remedy unless anyone has suggestions.
Could Kingspan the ceilings I guess but have full wall height fitted
furniture so an alternative would be preferred.
This has also made me think about the small triangular lofts that form part
of the ceiling for some downstairs rooms and part of the lower walls for
some 1st floor rooms.
They are small though and I have had difficulty even crawling into the space
in years past.

All our rads have TRV's except the one in the room where the stat is. We
don't like or need warm bedrooms so the heat there is just background and
doors are shut during the day.
The programmable room stat is set at its lowest setting ( 5 deg C )
overnight ( from 10 pm weekdays ) so effectively the heating is off
overnight.
During the daytime heating needs are mixed as the 3 members of the family
have varying work/university hours on different days.
The stat is set for just about comfortable in the later morning/afternoon
with a temperature boost for the evening when it's certain that one or more
will be home.

The tumble drier was new 12 months ago and is A energy rated and it is used
on its humidity sensing setting.
IE when the clothes are dry and the exhaust contains no/negligible moisture
it switches itself off.
I now remember why we bought it 12 months ago and it was because of our
energy bills last winter - our 20 yrs old tumble drier was still working OK
at the time.
The link to a drying cabinet/room with a dehumidifier is very interesting -
wish I'd seen it 12 months ago.

Re cooking.
Our 5 yr old range cooker is 1m wide and has only one oven cavity which is
full width.
The electric oven has developed a problem this past month or so in that it
is intermittent in operation. Turns out that it is a common fault with this
manufacturer on this range cooker. My wife is pressing for its repair but I
think I might delay so that she gets into the habit of using an alternative
where possible. It's a big oven to heat for small items like potatoes or
pasties.
We have a new but unused electric steam cooker that has been in the loft for
about 3 yrs since it was bought as a present for us. Should be good for
several veg at once as opposed to 3 or 4 gas rings burning.
We have a pressure cooker that the wife doesn't use as much as she used to.
It, of course, can cook several veg on just one gas ring.
Our freezer is about 18 months old, can't remember the energy rating offhand
but I chose one with thicker than usual sides assuming insulation there.
Our fridge is about 20 yrs old and maybe needs an assessment on its
consumption.

The washing machine and dishwasher have both been replaced in the past 4
years or so. Don't know their energy ratings though - should get the
handbooks out if I can find them.
In the washing machine my wife does hotish washes, don't know what
temperature will have to ask and asses.

Hmm - on looking at the assumed ( guessed and still to be measured ) 100mA
consumption for the bell transformer I guess I was a bit pessimistic. 24 W
of iron loss - it would definitely run hot.

Lots to consider.

My AC current meter is RMS BTW.

TTFN - JD

--
The eMail address used in newsgroups is invalid - reply to group only for me
to see.


"JDT2Q" wrote in message
...
Hi group,

Today I completed the monthly on line meter readings submission for my
energy supplier and was presented with a bill for about £450 for the past
quarter.
I was

On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:31:17 +0000, Geoff Lane
wrote:


Anything below high setting and the rads run cool.

Geoff Lane


Surely, that's the whole point, isn't it ? On cold days, those on low settings
(2) feel warm, whereas those on a high setting (5) are hot.

On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 00:59:27 -0000, "JDT2Q" wrote:

WOW! Thanks for all the replies.

I've read them all and some good points are made.

BTW the elec:gas ratio is elec £172 : gas £288

Re our loft insulation.
The insulation is only the depth of the ceiling joists as the loft is
boarded onto the joists.
For storage use only - heat not required up there.
The front and rear dormers ( full house width ) flat roof insulation depth
is not known - there may be none as the house was built in 1968.
I think this would be difficult to remedy unless anyone has suggestions.
Could Kingspan the ceilings I guess but have full wall height fitted
furniture so an alternative would be preferred.

I'd say this is the source of a lot of your heat loss. Due to a leak
I had to replace the ceiling over one flat-roofed bedroom, I took the
opportunity to replace both and insulated between the joists with 60mm
Celotex leaving - I forget now - maybe 20mm air space above. These
rooms are now warm all of the time with the TRVs at 4 rather than cold
with the TRVs at 6. A noticeable improvement.

Only three ways to retrofit to a flat roof AFAIK:

1. Wait 'til it needs replacing and do it externally then (going from
cold roof to warm roof, probably)
2. Tear down ceiling, insulate with Celotex/Kingspan between joists,
reboard & replaster. Messy, expensive. Need at least 60mm Celotex to
be worthwhile: building regs probably require at least 100mm maybe 150
in new builds, anything over 100mm is probably overkill in our
lifetime for a retrofit.
3. Fix new joists to existing ceiling (transverse to existing for ease
of fitting) insulate tight to ceiling, board and plaster. Less messy,
but reduces ceiling height by 75 - 125mm, expensive.


No grants available for flat roof insulation, despite it being greater
source of heatloss than walls or loft: indicates how poor the
cost/benefit ratio is. However, in your situation it may be a
disproportionately high contributor to heatloss giving you a much
better payback: with me it's marginal. It would be more comfortable
with insulation (fewer cold spots) but I'm not putting a monetary
value on comfort.

BTW: If it's snowed with you today keep an eye on your roof and your
neighbours' to see where the snow goes first - that's a good indicator
of poor insulation. If a neighbour with a similar property keeps
their some much longer, ask them what insulation they have. Or maybe
they're away skiing.

On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:31:17 +0000 someone who may be Geoff Lane
wrote this:-

Anything below high setting and the rads run cool.

That may mean they are doing their job. One of the disadvantages of
these valves is that they are not in a good location to sense room
temperature well, even before they are covered by furniture or
curtains.

Some of the thermostatic valves in my house are at least 20 years
old. They still do their job well. The one in my hall brings the
radiator on at full output for a while, as the hall warms up it
achieves a steady state with the radiator at low temperature.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 05 Feb 2009 00:30:13 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
PeterC writes:
On 04 Feb 2009 22:29:06 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
me here writes:
Bake taters in the microwave: uses 25% of
the enrgy (IIRC)

Remember to not eat the skins if you only microwaved them.

er, why, please?

There's a toxin in potato skins which is destroyed by cooking.
However, microwaving doesn't cook the skins well enough to do
so, so there's a risk you'll end up eating some.

Thanks. I know about the oxalic acid but hadn't realised that the
milliwobble didn't kill it. Be worse if there's any hint of greeness in the
skin.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 08:11:56 +0000, David Hansen wrote:

On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:31:17 +0000 someone who may be Geoff Lane
wrote this:-

Anything below high setting and the rads run cool.

That may mean they are doing their job. One of the disadvantages of
these valves is that they are not in a good location to sense room
temperature well, even before they are covered by furniture or
curtains.

Some of the thermostatic valves in my house are at least 20 years
old. They still do their job well. The one in my hall brings the
radiator on at full output for a while, as the hall warms up it
achieves a steady state with the radiator at low temperature.

Same in my bedrooms, with the TRVs set to about 1 (I like the temperature
at about 14C).
It seems that if the CH is firing quite frequently, due to cold weather,
the TRVs don't open up so much because they're kept warm from the pipe, but
if the CH fires perhaps every 60 - 75 min. the valves open more as they've
cooled down. Perhaps better on the outlet? Also 'reversed', so that the cap
is horizontal and less affected by the heat?
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

PeterC wrote:
On 05 Feb 2009 00:30:13 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
PeterC writes:
On 04 Feb 2009 22:29:06 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
me here writes:
Bake taters in the microwave: uses 25% of
the enrgy (IIRC)
Remember to not eat the skins if you only microwaved them.
er, why, please?
There's a toxin in potato skins which is destroyed by cooking.
However, microwaving doesn't cook the skins well enough to do
so, so there's a risk you'll end up eating some.

Thanks. I know about the oxalic acid but hadn't realised that the
milliwobble didn't kill it. Be worse if there's any hint of greeness in the
skin.

I thought the principal toxin in spuds was solanine, isn't oxalic acid
what is in rhubarb leaves? (Though oxalates are produced in some fungi
infected potatoes.)

http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/potato.asp

(Ignoring artificially applied substances like the post-harvest
fungicide thiabendazole (which does not get destroyed by oven or
microwave cooking).)

But I would like to see some references to potatoes and microwaves.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On 04 Feb 2009 22:17:52 GMT, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:


Anything below high setting and the rads run cool.

It may be that the valve pins are getting stuck in.
Can happen with some types as they age.

I'm no CH expert but I don't get this issue.

Surely the whole point of the TRV is to restrict the flow, so that less water
flows and the radiator emit less heat !

The suggestion that the radiator attain the same high temperature would surely
infer some timing factor, rather than a temperature regulation or am I seriously
missing the point ?

In article ,
ransley writes:
Are Kill-A-Watt meters sold there,

Yes, although that is a US-specific brand name I believe.
There seem to be an ever increasing number of different
makes/types of these appearing here, and they can be found
for well under £10 if you look around.

they are very accurate and good for
testing loads over days like refrigerators to see actual usage. They
record hours and Kwh used. Of coourse you use Cfls and flourescents
not incandesant lights.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

JDT2Q wrote:

BTW the elec:gas ratio is elec £172 : gas £288

FYI the house here is a late 60s open plan semi, with two adult
occupants 24/7. Back boiler central heating, electric cooker, no
tumble dryer, Economy 7 electricity; computers on 20/24 and router
24/7.

Be aware that Nov-Dec-Jan is the possibly costliest period for
heating; almost half the annual gas bill is accounted for here by
these three months, 6000 out of 14000 kWh annual.

I've just checked the spreadsheet for Nov-Dec-Jan: Gas £226,
electricity £114. Annual use is 14000 kWh for Gas, 3500 kWh for
electricity.

What brought the electricity bill down noticeably was having the
kitchen updated a couple of years ago, and replacing the cooker,
fridge, and freezer with modern ones (fridge and freezer became a
fridge/freezer).

ISTM that your gas usage isn't too far out of line for a back-boiler
system, but you don't say whether you have this type or a modern
condensing one.

As others have said, go for the costliest items first, likely to be
tumble drier, cooker, and washing machine on the electricity side, and
taking the sensible steps as have been mentioned with the central
heating - but keep in mind these are the costliest heating months
anyway.

Turning off things like the router are likely to be more of a pain
that it's worth - if someone's working late, or starts early, and the
router isn't up and running, then it becomes a nuisance that you'll
happily pay a few pounds a year to avoid.

Be aware that 'energy ratings' on appliances can be a con - washing
machines have now gone cold-fill only, to boost their ratings despite
using more electricity than before. It all hinges on what is defined
as 'efficiency', which isn't necessarily the same as reducing your
bills.

Also be aware that 'switch' websites don't always give you the full
range of options. The Equitable Billing Company refuse to pay fees to
switch sites, so don't appear on them. Their only tariff is a 'social'
one, the same for every customer, none of these confusing 'deals' like
the main suppliers, and no expensive 'Primary Day Units' for
electricity or 'Expensive Tier' for gas. Do your suppliers have these?
See if Ebico's price comparisons would help you:

http://www.ebico.co.uk/

HTH

In article ,
me here writes:
2. Tear down ceiling, insulate with Celotex/Kingspan between joists,
reboard & replaster. Messy, expensive. Need at least 60mm Celotex to
be worthwhile: building regs probably require at least 100mm maybe 150
in new builds, anything over 100mm is probably overkill in our
lifetime for a retrofit.

If you've got no insulation, even 25mm of celotex will make an
enormous difference. Each increase in thickness is a tiny gain
compared with going from nothing to the first inch. You don't
need 60mm to be worthwhile. In this scenario, I would install
a thickness which is the ceiling joist height minus 2 - 3" to
allow for ventilation above (capped at whetever current building
regs require). Cut and fit with the bottom level with the bottom
of the joists (so the gap is above the celotex, not below).
Seal all the joins below with aluminium tape (including between
the celotex and joists) and refit with foil backed plasterboard.

BTW, it's quite easy to tell if you have any insulation up
there. Buy an infra-red digital thermometer (a great toy to
have anyway). Use it to measure the ceiling temperature on a
cold night. If the ceiling is significantly colder than the
body of the room, then there's little or no insulation in it.

You can repeat that around all the external walls/ceiling/floors
of the living accomodation in the house to see where you are
losing heat, i.e. where you would benefit from more insulation.

You can also do it the other way around. On a cold day when
you have the heating on, walk around the outside of the house
looking for the warmer outside surfaces. This is also where
you are losing heat. (Might be difficult to get a measurement
from the top of a flat roof unless you can oversee it some how,
or get a ladder up there.)

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
Andy Cap writes:
On 04 Feb 2009 22:17:52 GMT, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:


Anything below high setting and the rads run cool.

It may be that the valve pins are getting stuck in.
Can happen with some types as they age.

I'm no CH expert but I don't get this issue.

Surely the whole point of the TRV is to restrict the flow, so that less water
flows and the radiator emit less heat !

The suggestion that the radiator attain the same high temperature would surely
infer some timing factor, rather than a temperature regulation or am I seriously
missing the point ?

It seems to be a common misconception that the TRV sets the radiator
temperature. It doesn't - it sets the room temperature. The radiator
temperature is likely to swing all over the place in its effort to
maintain the room temperature, particularly given that the hot supply
to the radiator is likely to be cycling on and off from the boiler too.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
(Andrew Gabriel) writes:
You can also do it the other way around. On a cold day when
you have the heating on, walk around the outside of the house
looking for the warmer outside surfaces. This is also where
you are losing heat. (Might be difficult to get a measurement
from the top of a flat roof unless you can oversee it some how,
or get a ladder up there.)

Another varient particularly apt at the moment -- how quickly
does the snow melt on your roof compared with other roofs
around you (and even compared with different parts of the roof)?

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 05 Feb 2009 10:28:38 GMT someone who may be
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-

It seems to be a common misconception that the TRV sets the radiator
temperature.

Indeed. The related myth is that the higher the number the more
rapidly the radiator heats the room.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"Andy Cap" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:31:17 +0000, Geoff Lane

wrote:


Anything below high setting and the rads run cool.

Geoff Lane


Surely, that's the whole point, isn't it ? On cold days, those on low
settings
(2) feel warm, whereas those on a high setting (5) are hot.

No it isn't.
Any room that is up to temp has the rads off, any that aren't have them on.
Once the house is warm all of the rads should be cooler than when it is
warming up.
If they aren't the rads are too small or the valves aren't working.

On 05 Feb 2009 10:28:38 GMT, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:


It seems to be a common misconception that the TRV sets the radiator
temperature. It doesn't - it sets the room temperature. The radiator
temperature is likely to swing all over the place in its effort to
maintain the room temperature, particularly given that the hot supply
to the radiator is likely to be cycling on and off from the boiler too.

Well all I can say is that is not my practical experience.

As I wrote, all my upstairs radiators are set to 2, the downstairs to 5.
On a cold day, all the upstairs ones are just warm, the downstairs one are
untouchable. Maybe my TRVs are just more efficient than most ! ;-)

On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 11:02:53 -0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:



No it isn't.
Any room that is up to temp has the rads off, any that aren't have them on.
Once the house is warm all of the rads should be cooler than when it is
warming up.
If they aren't the rads are too small or the valves aren't working.

Yes OK, I get the principle now, but still it's more likely a high set TRV
radiator will be hot. Yes?

On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 11:09:40 +0000, Andy Cap wrote:

Well all I can say is that is not my practical experience.

As I wrote, all my upstairs radiators are set to 2, the downstairs to 5.
On a cold day, all the upstairs ones are just warm, the downstairs one are
untouchable. Maybe my TRVs are just more efficient than most ! ;-)

Yes OK. As I just acknowledged to dennis@home, I can see where you're coming
from now.

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
(Andrew Gabriel) writes:
You can also do it the other way around. On a cold day when
you have the heating on, walk around the outside of the house
looking for the warmer outside surfaces. This is also where
you are losing heat. (Might be difficult to get a measurement
from the top of a flat roof unless you can oversee it some how,
or get a ladder up there.)

Another varient particularly apt at the moment -- how quickly
does the snow melt on your roof compared with other roofs
around you (and even compared with different parts of the roof)?

Which is fine as a very rough rule of thumb. But there will be a
substantial difference between a house with a ridge flue, or just a
through-the-roof flue as against one with a through the wall flue.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 09:08:38 +0000, Rod wrote:

PeterC wrote:
On 05 Feb 2009 00:30:13 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
PeterC writes:
On 04 Feb 2009 22:29:06 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
me here writes:
Bake taters in the microwave: uses 25% of
the enrgy (IIRC)
Remember to not eat the skins if you only microwaved them.
er, why, please?
There's a toxin in potato skins which is destroyed by cooking.
However, microwaving doesn't cook the skins well enough to do
so, so there's a risk you'll end up eating some.

Thanks. I know about the oxalic acid but hadn't realised that the
milliwobble didn't kill it. Be worse if there's any hint of greeness in the
skin.

I thought the principal toxin in spuds was solanine, isn't oxalic acid
what is in rhubarb leaves? (Though oxalates are produced in some fungi
infected potatoes.)

Yes, sorry, I was thinking of green ones and assuming that they're the
same.

http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/potato.asp

(Ignoring artificially applied substances like the post-harvest
fungicide thiabendazole (which does not get destroyed by oven or
microwave cooking).)

But I would like to see some references to potatoes and microwaves.


--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 11:12:29 +0000 someone who may be Andy Cap
wrote this:-

Yes OK, I get the principle now, but still it's more likely a high set TRV
radiator will be hot. Yes?

For a given room at a given starting temperature the higher the
valve is turned the more likely it is that the room will not be
above the set temperature and thus the radiator will warm up.

For the same given conditions the higher the valve is turned the
longer the radiator will take to warm the room up to the set
temperature, at which point the valve will close down and the
radiator will then cool down.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Jason wrote:
100mA at 240V would be 24W. You would have smoke from your bell transformer if
it was chewing up that much power.

You would not.

24W is not much for a metal object to dissipate into reasonable air.

It is more likely using an eighth that much
power - 3W perhaps, costing a couple of quid a year. Your bills seem to be out
by a large factor, so forget these tiny amounts for now.


However that is true. An unloaded bell transformer will have a huge
power factor.


Its essentially an inductor straight across the mains..

Check you are not being charged for imperial gas measurements, given a metric
meter, or your gas supply is not supplying your neighbours, or something.

-- Jason

Rod wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:34:47 +0000, Geoff Lane wrote:

Bake taters in the microwave: uses 25% of the enrgy (IIRC) ditto
with veg.
Don't taste as good though, can't beat crispy skins

Cook 'em through in the microwave and crisp the skins in the oven.
You'll still use less power as the oven will only be on for 15 mins
rather than the 45 to an hour for baking spuds normally.


What proportion of the cost if running an oven is used in getting it up
to heat?

All of it.

It always seem to me that it takes one hell of a lot to get it
up to, say, 170, but from then on it only cuts in intermittently.

So what is the difference between:

Cost of heating oven to temperature plus keeping it hot for 15 mins.

and

Cost of heating oven to temperature plus keeping it hot for 45 mins.

(I'd still guess that the pre-cook in microwave would be cheaper. But
possibly by quite a small margin. I certainly find our microwave itself
gets quite warm in cooking potatoes for a few minutes.)


Better use an Aga then. It heats teh room uniformly all the time, so
there is no need to open the window when the kitchen suddenly gets uber
hot because you have spent an extra 10Kwh cooking dinner.

Clot wrote:
Steve wrote:
On Wed, 4 Feb 2009 00:13:17 -0000, JDT2Q wrote:

Any suggestions ??
You don't say how much is actually electric of that bill, I would
expect gas to be the majority, but assuming you are only targeting
the electric I would start by grabbing a whole house energy meter
(owl, eco-eye, efergy etc). They are not 100% accurate, they don't
need to be, they are only a quick method of targeting whats taking
the power.

Also re-switch the computer and tv gear onto separate gang plugs where
needed so that one whole set can turn off with one switch and leave
on the sky+/recorder as needed. That alone saved me £10 per month.

Your likely to find that things like the bell use almost nothing, and
the bigger items like the fridge/freezer that are using the most, but
you may find others that catch you out. The meter helps find what
the usage is, but is also helpful in enforcing a habit of switching
things off, or using things less (like a kettle etc)

Talking about the kettle, I am amazed how many folk still use a kettle to
make a cup of coffee or tea. Shove a shovel of coffee granules ( I just tip
the required amount direct from the jar being a former lab. chemist and
still able to assess volumes), zap the microwave (90 seconds in our unit of
850W) and bingo. If tea, then similar but teabag inserted after heating!
Shorter time than in the kettle, not heating the kettle with minimal energy
heating the turntable.


Sure. why bother with a 100% efficient kettle when you can use a 30%
efficient microwave to do the same job.

Huge wrote:
On 2009-02-05, Clot wrote:

Why oh why can she not understand that closing doors between rooms
conserves the heat?

It's a woman thing. The same principle that turning the thermostat up
makes the house warm up faster.

Well of course it does!

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Clot wrote:


Talking about the kettle, I am amazed how many folk still use a kettle
to make a cup of coffee or tea. Shove a shovel of coffee granules ( I
just tip the required amount direct from the jar being a former lab.
chemist and still able to assess volumes), zap the microwave (90
seconds in our unit of 850W) and bingo. If tea, then similar but
teabag inserted after heating! Shorter time than in the kettle, not
heating the kettle with minimal energy heating the turntable.

Sure. why bother with a 100% efficient kettle when you can use a 30%
efficient microwave to do the same job.

Ah - I was going to point out that you cannot make a cup of coffee from
granules. (You can make a brown liquid with something that vaguely
reminds you of coffee. I don't - rather do without.)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Rod wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:34:47 +0000, Geoff Lane wrote:

Bake taters in the microwave: uses 25% of the enrgy (IIRC) ditto
with veg.
Don't taste as good though, can't beat crispy skins

Cook 'em through in the microwave and crisp the skins in the oven.
You'll still use less power as the oven will only be on for 15 mins
rather than the 45 to an hour for baking spuds normally.


What proportion of the cost if running an oven is used in getting it
up to heat?

All of it.

It always seem to me that it takes one hell of a lot to get it up to,
say, 170, but from then on it only cuts in intermittently.

So what is the difference between:

Cost of heating oven to temperature plus keeping it hot for 15 mins.

and

Cost of heating oven to temperature plus keeping it hot for 45 mins.

(I'd still guess that the pre-cook in microwave would be cheaper. But
possibly by quite a small margin. I certainly find our microwave
itself gets quite warm in cooking potatoes for a few minutes.)


Better use an Aga then. It heats teh room uniformly all the time, so
there is no need to open the window when the kitchen suddenly gets uber
hot because you have spent an extra 10Kwh cooking dinner.

An electric one? :-)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Rod wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Rod wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:34:47 +0000, Geoff Lane wrote:

Bake taters in the microwave: uses 25% of the enrgy (IIRC) ditto
with veg.
Don't taste as good though, can't beat crispy skins

Cook 'em through in the microwave and crisp the skins in the oven.
You'll still use less power as the oven will only be on for 15 mins
rather than the 45 to an hour for baking spuds normally.


What proportion of the cost if running an oven is used in getting it
up to heat?

All of it.

It always seem to me that it takes one hell of a lot to get it up to,
say, 170, but from then on it only cuts in intermittently.

So what is the difference between:

Cost of heating oven to temperature plus keeping it hot for 15 mins.

and

Cost of heating oven to temperature plus keeping it hot for 45 mins.

(I'd still guess that the pre-cook in microwave would be cheaper. But
possibly by quite a small margin. I certainly find our microwave
itself gets quite warm in cooking potatoes for a few minutes.)


Better use an Aga then. It heats teh room uniformly all the time, so
there is no need to open the window when the kitchen suddenly gets
uber hot because you have spent an extra 10Kwh cooking dinner.

An electric one? :-)

If you must ;-)

Andrew Gabriel posted
It seems to be a common misconception that the TRV sets the radiator
temperature. It doesn't - it sets the room temperature.

I must admit I thought that. I can't understand how it can measure the
room temperature at all accurately when it is screwed tightly onto a hot
radiator.

--
Les

Clot posted
Why oh why can she not understand that closing doors between rooms
conserves the heat?

How? I can see how it would conserve the heat in a room, but not
necessarily through the whole house.

--
Les

In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
Clot wrote:
Talking about the kettle, I am amazed how many folk still use a
kettle to make a cup of coffee or tea. Shove a shovel of coffee
granules ( I just tip the required amount direct from the jar being a
former lab. chemist and still able to assess volumes), zap the
microwave (90 seconds in our unit of 850W) and bingo. If tea, then
similar but teabag inserted after heating! Shorter time than in the
kettle, not heating the kettle with minimal energy heating the turntable.


Sure. why bother with a 100% efficient kettle when you can use a 30%
efficient microwave to do the same job.

And it's not quicker anyway, having nothing better to do I timed our
kettle (3Kw jug type with a plate type element).

With the it containing water up to the minimum mark - about 1 2/3 mugs
it brought it to boiling in 55 secs.

and whilst hot water might be ok for instant coffee, you need boiling
water for tea (though if you are just waving a tea bag in a cup maybe
it's a moot point) Proper coffee and tea in a tea pot here though
--
Chris French

In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes
In article ,
ransley writes:
Are Kill-A-Watt meters sold there,

Yes, although that is a US-specific brand name I believe.
There seem to be an ever increasing number of different
makes/types of these appearing here, and they can be found
for well under £10 if you look around.

I've got one of the ones that Maplin sell/sold, though I got it from
ebay for about £10. It appears to be a UK version of the Kill-a-watt,
looking basically the same.

It seems to be pretty accurate, and can measure and take account of
power factor
--
Chris French

On 5 Feb 2009 09:40:56 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2009-02-05, Clot wrote:

Why oh why can she not understand that closing doors between rooms conserves
the heat?

It's a woman thing. The same principle that turning the thermostat up makes
the house warm up faster.

When we had a centrally controlled heating system installed at work, the
works Engineer was worried about the women in the stores as they were
always moaning about the temperature being high or low and weren't allowed
to alter the 'stat. I advised him to leave the 'stat there and tell the
women that although there was central control there was some control on the
'stat and that they may use it.
They seemed quite happy with the arrangement.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

In message , Terry Fields
writes



Be aware that 'energy ratings' on appliances can be a con - washing
machines have now gone cold-fill only, to boost their ratings despite
using more electricity than before.

It all hinges on what is defined
as 'efficiency', which isn't necessarily the same as reducing your
bills.


I'm not sure why becoming cold fill would boost their energy ratings if
you think it means they use more, I reckon it probably makes it more
efficient to be cold fill only on the whole, esp as they use less water
now. It doesn't have to draw a loads of cold or cooler water from the
hot pie, just to leave HW lying in the pipe. It just heats it as it
needs it. Even those with hot fill would sit heating for a while anyway
(well my old one did, even on a 40C program, I think it probably drew
hot and cold water anyway)

Also be aware that 'switch' websites don't always give you the full
range of options.

EnergyLinx who I've found the best seem to pretty much list them all,
unless they don't want to be listed.

The Equitable Billing Company refuse to pay fees to
switch sites,

so don't appear on them.

Possibly a short sighted approach?

I don't have a problem with the comparison sites getting a commission,
they provide a useful service, it needs to be paid for somehow.

Their only tariff is a 'social'
one, the same for every customer, none of these confusing 'deals' like
the main suppliers,

and no expensive 'Primary Day Units' for
electricity or 'Expensive Tier' for gas.

shrug They are just a standing charge for most people by another name.

Do your suppliers have these?
See if Ebico's price comparisons would help you:

http://www.ebico.co.uk/

Whilst I like the sound of it in principal. Yep, they have one social
tariff, which unfortunately is much much more expensive for me (as in
£100's a year more)
--
Chris French