Hi,

There's been a lot in the news recently regarding the opening of seasonal
outdoor ice rinks all over the UK. These things must be horribly energy
inefficient.

I think it's a particular paradox that the Natural History Museum has
one....at a time when the Governments climate change targets are such big
news.

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/visit-us/whats-...ink/index.html

Q. Does anybody have any idea what the energy consumption of an outdoor
ice rink is?

[I guess it would be measured in kWh/sq.metre with some factor for ambient
temperature above 0C].

OT and nerdy, I know.....

David

Vortex wrote:
Hi,

There's been a lot in the news recently regarding the opening of seasonal
outdoor ice rinks all over the UK. These things must be horribly energy
inefficient.

It's not nearly as bad as you might think.
They get a fair amount of insulation (in low winds) from the cold air
pooling on the ice.

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
Vortex wrote:
Hi,

There's been a lot in the news recently regarding the opening of seasonal
outdoor ice rinks all over the UK. These things must be horribly energy
inefficient.

It's not nearly as bad as you might think.
They get a fair amount of insulation (in low winds) from the cold air
pooling on the ice.

I found a fantastic manual in case you want to build your own Olympic size
rink:

http://www.iihf.com/education/Ice_Ri...ual/manual.htm

It implies minimum 500 MWh per year just for electricity to support in
indoor 30m x 60m sized (full size) ice pad.

D

Vortex wrote:

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
Vortex wrote:
Hi,

There's been a lot in the news recently regarding the opening of seasonal
outdoor ice rinks all over the UK. These things must be horribly energy
inefficient.

It's not nearly as bad as you might think.
They get a fair amount of insulation (in low winds) from the cold air
pooling on the ice.

I found a fantastic manual in case you want to build your own Olympic size
rink:

http://www.iihf.com/education/Ice_Ri...ual/manual.htm

It implies minimum 500 MWh per year just for electricity to support in
indoor 30m x 60m sized (full size) ice pad.

1MWh/day , with 1000 customers/day is 'only' 1Kwh per customer, or 10p.

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:05:57 -0000, "Vortex"
wrote:

Hi,

There's been a lot in the news recently regarding the opening of seasonal
outdoor ice rinks all over the UK. These things must be horribly energy
inefficient.

iirc, something is added to the water that encourages it to freeze at
a higher temperature than normal.

sponix

--s-p-o-n-i-x-- wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:05:57 -0000, "Vortex"
wrote:

Hi,

There's been a lot in the news recently regarding the opening of seasonal
outdoor ice rinks all over the UK. These things must be horribly energy
inefficient.

iirc, something is added to the water that encourages it to freeze at
a higher temperature than normal.

Heavy water freezes at 3.81c.

Ian Stirling wrote:
--s-p-o-n-i-x-- wrote:


iirc, something is added to the water that encourages it to freeze at
a higher temperature than normal.


Heavy water freezes at 3.81c.

Indeed, but at UKP 1500 per litre of heavy water, I suspect most people
would choose to pay for the electricity instead.

In message , --s-p-o-n-i-x--
writes
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:05:57 -0000, "Vortex"
wrote:

Hi,

There's been a lot in the news recently regarding the opening of seasonal
outdoor ice rinks all over the UK. These things must be horribly energy
inefficient.

iirc, something is added to the water that encourages it to freeze at
a higher temperature than normal.

Such as ?

I can only see how you would lower the melting point

--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , --s-p-o-n-i-x--
writes
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:05:57 -0000, "Vortex"
wrote:

Hi,

There's been a lot in the news recently regarding the opening of seasonal
outdoor ice rinks all over the UK. These things must be horribly energy
inefficient.

iirc, something is added to the water that encourages it to freeze at
a higher temperature than normal.

Such as ?

I can only see how you would lower the melting point

--
geoff

agreed - impurities lower the melting point

--
(º·.¸(¨*·.¸ ¸.·*¨)¸.·º)
.·°·. NIK .·°·.
(¸.·º(¸.·¨* *¨·.¸)º·.¸)

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:35:27 -0000, Ian Stirling
wrote:

It's not nearly as bad as you might think.
They get a fair amount of insulation (in low winds) from the cold air
pooling on the ice.

Ice is also a remarkably good thermal insulator in itself, so once the
initial energy to freeze the ice (which must be extracted, of course) has
been expended maintenence of the situation is not to energy hungry.


It implies minimum 500 MWh per year just for electricity to support in
indoor 30m x 60m sized (full size) ice pad.

1MWh/day , with 1000 customers/day is 'only' 1Kwh per customer, or 10p.

While the overall energy may be that large, the financial model is
probably pessimistic. The electricity companies give substantial discount
to large users. For a start, their loading on the network is more
predictable. A large number of small private users is their primary
peak-lopping problem. You only need a penalty shoot-out to cause Dinorwig
to kick in, because everybody wants to brew a cuppa beforehand. Big
consumers work to a schedule.

John Schmitt

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Owain wrote:
Ian Stirling wrote:
http://www.iihf.com/education/Ice_Ri...ual/manual.htm
It implies minimum 500 MWh per year just for electricity to support in
indoor 30m x 60m sized (full size) ice pad.
1MWh/day , with 1000 customers/day is 'only' 1Kwh per customer, or 10p.

Still couldn't run it off a 13A extension lead plugged in to the garden
shed though, before anybody asks.

Course it could, you just need a sturdy nail!

Owain wrote:

Still couldn't run it off a 13A extension lead plugged in to the garden
shed though, before anybody asks.

But you're only looking at 80-odd amps per phase - it's not a
particularly heavy load.

--
Andy

John Schmitt wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:35:27 -0000, Ian Stirling
wrote:

It's not nearly as bad as you might think.
They get a fair amount of insulation (in low winds) from the cold air
pooling on the ice.

Ice is also a remarkably good thermal insulator in itself, so once the
initial energy to freeze the ice (which must be extracted, of course) has
been expended maintenence of the situation is not to energy hungry.


It implies minimum 500 MWh per year just for electricity to support in
indoor 30m x 60m sized (full size) ice pad.

1MWh/day , with 1000 customers/day is 'only' 1Kwh per customer, or 10p.

While the overall energy may be that large, the financial model is
probably pessimistic. The electricity companies give substantial discount
to large users. For a start, their loading on the network is more
predictable. A large number of small private users is their primary
peak-lopping problem. You only need a penalty shoot-out to cause Dinorwig
to kick in, because everybody wants to brew a cuppa beforehand. Big
consumers work to a schedule.

It's probably even better than that. An ice-rink could stand a five
minute power cut every twenty minutes no problem at all. Sufficiently
big users can cut deals with the electricity suppliers whereby they cut
your supply when they feel like it, in exchange for a reduced rate. It
helps lop their peaks.

Mind you, isn't the biggest problem with out-door ice-rinks going to be
rain? That's what will really melt the ice.

On 22 Nov 2005 07:32:32 -0800, "Martin Bonner"
wrote:

Mind you, isn't the biggest problem with out-door ice-rinks going to be
rain? That's what will really melt the ice.

Or mischievous children with buckets of road-salt?

sponix

sPoNiX wrote:

On 22 Nov 2005 07:32:32 -0800, "Martin Bonner"
wrote:


Mind you, isn't the biggest problem with out-door ice-rinks going to be
rain? That's what will really melt the ice.


Or mischievous children with buckets of road-salt?

sponix

Why not replace the ice / skate surfaces with PTFE and some PTFE based
lubricant?

--
Adrian C

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:19:47 GMT, sPoNiX wrote:

Or mischievous children with buckets of road-salt?

Naw all that 'orrible orange gunk. Nice bit of "value" table salt,
much cleaner and harder to spot...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Adrian C wrote:
sPoNiX wrote:

On 22 Nov 2005 07:32:32 -0800, "Martin Bonner"
wrote:


Mind you, isn't the biggest problem with out-door ice-rinks going to be
rain? That's what will really melt the ice.


Or mischievous children with buckets of road-salt?

Why not replace the ice / skate surfaces with PTFE and some PTFE based
lubricant?

Because ice is not a lubricant.
The coefficient of friction of ice on steel is actually (IIRC) about the
same as that of steel on rock.
What happens at normal temperatures and pressures is that the friction of
the skate melts a thin layer of water, and the skate then rides on this.
Steel, or whatever on PTFE isn't nearly as good.

However, it's been done - the Roller Disco!

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
Adrian C wrote:
sPoNiX wrote:

On 22 Nov 2005 07:32:32 -0800, "Martin Bonner"
wrote:


Mind you, isn't the biggest problem with out-door ice-rinks going to be
rain? That's what will really melt the ice.


Or mischievous children with buckets of road-salt?

Why not replace the ice / skate surfaces with PTFE and some PTFE based
lubricant?

Because ice is not a lubricant.
The coefficient of friction of ice on steel is actually (IIRC) about the
same as that of steel on rock.
What happens at normal temperatures and pressures is that the friction of
the skate melts a thin layer of water, and the skate then rides on this.
Steel, or whatever on PTFE isn't nearly as good.

However, it's been done - the Roller Disco!

"What happens at normal temperatures and pressures is that the friction of
the skate melts a thin layer of water, and the skate then rides on this.
"

actually the PRESSURE of the skate on the ice induces localised melting
allowing a thin film of water to lubricate the skate, you can see this
effect by supporting a mass with thin wire looped over a block of ice. The
local melting allows the wire to pass through the block which refreezes
(under low temperature conditions) this effect is due to the pressure (ice
has a larger volume than the water its made from so that pressure will
temporarily liquify it - Le Chateliers principle IIRC)

--
(º·.¸(¨*·.¸ ¸.·*¨)¸.·º)
.·°·. NIK .·°·.
(¸.·º(¸.·¨* *¨·.¸)º·.¸)

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:44:30 -0000, Adrian C wrote:

Why not replace the ice / skate surfaces with PTFE and some PTFE based
lubricant?

I've seen it done. No lubricant, just PTFE tiles about 12" square loose
laid in a frame. I didn't try it myself, but it looked like hard work
compared to real ice. Perhaps the blades were blunt. I'm no expert on
skating, I spend quite a bit of the time either in mid-air or horizontal.

John Schmitt

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/