Having just spent half a day trying to set up new bank accounts to replace
our Coop Freeflow which they're closing in a few weeks (recent thread
passim) I've realised one extra desiderata (desideratum?) - that the
online banking interface doesn't automatically log you out if you go off
to get a cup of tea, go to the bog, answer the phone or are just slow
typing.

I don't mind if it locks me out and wants some credentials to get
going again (like a screensaver with password to unlock - I've got that on
my PC anyway) but this evening I just tried to set up a joint account for
me & SWMBO. First logout happened when I came to the terms & conditions
page. It was obviously designed only for speed-readers, or those who
blindly click 'accept' to anything without reading it. By the time I'd
given it a reasonably cursory scan the damn' system had timed me out. But
at least I hadn't got far along with the application at that point.

However there's a page where you've got to enter a great scad of personal
information plus your 5 bits of security information - in duplicate! I got
through that OK but then they want the SO's. Now she's barely getting to
grips with pooters at the moment - can just about log in and google for
what's on at the flicks. By the time she'd entered all the info they
wanted their system had given up and gone home.

I mean, FFS, this was 'smile' (I didn't :-() who are part of the same
sodding bank, the Coop. All they've got to do is authenticate that I am
who I say I am, and that she is who she says she is, and pass over the
info they already have on the old account to set up the new one. What
could be simpler than that? But no, I expect the money they could have
used to get some clueful IT people to make a flexible workable system got
spent on fuelling some pony-tailed 'creative' types' cocaine habits to
produce a cute little pink arc that resembles a smile, for a logo.

So what banks have sensible web interfaces that aren't a total PITA?

--
John Stumbles

My karma ran over my dogma

On Mon, 2 Feb 2009 00:16:15 UTC, John Stumbles
wrote:

Having just spent half a day trying to set up new bank accounts to replace
our Coop Freeflow which they're closing in a few weeks (recent thread
passim) I've realised one extra desiderata (desideratum?) - that the
online banking interface doesn't automatically log you out if you go off
to get a cup of tea, go to the bog, answer the phone or are just slow
typing.

Natwest allow you to disable the timeout when you log on.
--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

John Stumbles wrote:

So what banks have sensible web interfaces that aren't a total PITA?

Well of all that I have tried so far (probably half a dozen or more of
the high street big names, de-mutulaised building socs, and some of the
internet only ones) I would say that Barclays have the best online front
end by far. You can do most stuff relatively easily. However they do
have a timeout[1] of about 10 mins or so IIRC.

[1] As I am sure you are aware there are technical reasons for only
maintaining a web session for a relatively short period of time -
especially if you plan to do it for lots of sessions. You will quickly
run out of server resources if you do not take care.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Well of all that I have tried so far (probably half a dozen or more of
the high street big names, de-mutulaised building socs, and some of the
internet only ones) I would say that Barclays have the best online front
end by far. You can do most stuff relatively easily. However they do
have a timeout[1] of about 10 mins or so IIRC.

It's my bank and it is unusual in working fine with my RISC OS browser.
Which is handy as I use a RISC OS prog for my accounting.

--
*To steal ideas from *one* person is plagiarism; from many, research*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Bob Eager wrote:

Natwest allow you to disable the timeout when you log on.

It doesn't stop the session timing out, it just means that they don't
blank out the currently displayed page when it does timeout.

On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 01:02:50 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

John Stumbles wrote:

So what banks have sensible web interfaces that aren't a total PITA?

Well of all that I have tried so far (probably half a dozen or more of
the high street big names, de-mutulaised building socs, and some of the
internet only ones) I would say that Barclays have the best online front
end by far. You can do most stuff relatively easily. However they do
have a timeout[1] of about 10 mins or so IIRC.

[1] As I am sure you are aware there are technical reasons for only
maintaining a web session for a relatively short period of time -
especially if you plan to do it for lots of sessions. You will quickly
run out of server resources if you do not take care.

I find this annoying too. It's just that with most banks the timeout
seems to be a bit too short. 20 to 30 minutes would be more
reasonable.

Chris

On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 14:35:02 +0800, Chris Blunt wrote:

On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 01:02:50 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

John Stumbles wrote:

So what banks have sensible web interfaces that aren't a total PITA?

Well of all that I have tried so far (probably half a dozen or more of
the high street big names, de-mutulaised building socs, and some of the
internet only ones) I would say that Barclays have the best online front
end by far. You can do most stuff relatively easily. However they do
have a timeout[1] of about 10 mins or so IIRC.

[1] As I am sure you are aware there are technical reasons for only
maintaining a web session for a relatively short period of time -
especially if you plan to do it for lots of sessions. You will quickly
run out of server resources if you do not take care.

I find this annoying too. It's just that with most banks the timeout
seems to be a bit too short. 20 to 30 minutes would be more
reasonable.

If you view every open session as an exposure to whatever level of risk,
it makes sense to terminate connections that have become inactive.

Although most banks will have a timeout I find LloydsTSB about the best
site.

Their current accounts also pay a good (in today's terminology!) rate of
interest up to a balance of £2,500. More than twice as much as my online
Alliance & Leicester savings account!

Rob Graham

["Followup-To:" header set to uk.finance.]
On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 01:02:50 +0000,
John Rumm wrote:
John Stumbles wrote:

So what banks have sensible web interfaces that aren't a total PITA?

Well of all that I have tried so far (probably half a dozen or more of
the high street big names, de-mutulaised building socs, and some of the
internet only ones) I would say that Barclays have the best online front
end by far. You can do most stuff relatively easily. However they do
have a timeout[1] of about 10 mins or so IIRC.


AFAIAA, Barclays is the only online banking website that works with
Javascript turned off. IMO that makes it the only online banking website
that can be called secure. It also only uses a few images.

Natwest (almost) works with images turned off[2] which makes it about
10x faster than with images turned on.(9s - 2s on my very fast
connection at work for the main screen) But you need to know where some
of the buttons are hiding (I guess due to missing alt tags although I've
not investigated) and certain menus don't work at all so you sometimes
have to use a roundabout way to get to a page. (Still needs javascript
IIRC) However I think their site is designed so that you can bookmark
pages and IIUC following a bookmark will take you through the login and
onto the page you want. So eliminating Javascript should not be a big
deal.

Alliance and Leicester is another that is mindnumbingly slow due to all
the images on each page. Not tried that with images turned off yet.

Tim.

[2] When you're on a secure page, images are not cached. That means that
the browser has to fetch all 184? images each time you change page. It is
unfortunate that browsers warn when some items are secure and some are
not otherwise all this eye candy could be on a separate, non https image
server.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

John Stumbles wrote:
Having just spent half a day trying to set up new bank accounts to replace
our Coop Freeflow which they're closing in a few weeks (recent thread
passim) I've realised one extra desiderata (desideratum?) - that the
online banking interface doesn't automatically log you out if you go off
to get a cup of tea, go to the bog, answer the phone or are just slow
typing.

I don't mind if it locks me out and wants some credentials to get
going again (like a screensaver with password to unlock - I've got that on
my PC anyway) but this evening I just tried to set up a joint account for
me & SWMBO. First logout happened when I came to the terms & conditions
page. It was obviously designed only for speed-readers, or those who
blindly click 'accept' to anything without reading it. By the time I'd
given it a reasonably cursory scan the damn' system had timed me out. But
at least I hadn't got far along with the application at that point.

However there's a page where you've got to enter a great scad of personal
information plus your 5 bits of security information - in duplicate! I got
through that OK but then they want the SO's. Now she's barely getting to
grips with pooters at the moment - can just about log in and google for
what's on at the flicks. By the time she'd entered all the info they
wanted their system had given up and gone home.

I mean, FFS, this was 'smile' (I didn't :-() who are part of the same
sodding bank, the Coop. All they've got to do is authenticate that I am
who I say I am, and that she is who she says she is, and pass over the
info they already have on the old account to set up the new one. What
could be simpler than that? But no, I expect the money they could have
used to get some clueful IT people to make a flexible workable system got
spent on fuelling some pony-tailed 'creative' types' cocaine habits to
produce a cute little pink arc that resembles a smile, for a logo.

So what banks have sensible web interfaces that aren't a total PITA?

I've used First Direct since it started and it's excellent. It also has
the advantage that there's a voice service as well when problems occur.
The staff are friendly and they do not have to work to time limits on
calls. FD has had a chance to develop its user front end over several
years and I like it. I think they are doing a try it type offer at present.

Peter Scott

On 2 Feb 2009 00:16:15 GMT, John Stumbles wrote:

So what banks have sensible web interfaces that aren't a total PITA?

HSBC Business pops up a little window after about 10mins of inactivity
before it logs you off. You have buttons with options to remain logged in,
log off now or it will log you off after 30 seconds anyway. Don't know if
HSBC "Domestic" works the same way.

The time out is essential IMHO. People just cannot be trusted to log out
when they have finished. The times I've come across an unattended works PC
left logged into the network and logged into somewhere else is far too
frequent. I could have bought loads of things on eBay or written
interesting things on peoples Face Book pages... I've yet to come across
an open bank account login but I have found the you have been "logged off
page".

--
Cheers
Dave.

John Stumbles wrote:


So what banks have sensible web interfaces that aren't a total PITA?

Ain't just banks. The number of companies that lose your order/basket if
you pause for a few minutes is huge. I could put up with having to login
again (or use some password to reactivate a session), but losing the
list of carefully identified and chosen items is enough to make me want
to go elsewhere. And, if possible, I do.

What compounds the annoyance/irksomeness factor is that you are rarely,
if ever, told that this happens.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Rod wrote:
John Stumbles wrote:


So what banks have sensible web interfaces that aren't a total PITA?

Ain't just banks. The number of companies that lose your order/basket if
you pause for a few minutes is huge. I could put up with having to login
again (or use some password to reactivate a session), but losing the
list of carefully identified and chosen items is enough to make me want
to go elsewhere. And, if possible, I do.

What compounds the annoyance/irksomeness factor is that you are rarely,
if ever, told that this happens.


I thought shopping baskets were cookies. Mine seem to stay intact, even
if I don't go back to the site for a few days

Stuart Noble wrote:
Rod wrote:
John Stumbles wrote:


So what banks have sensible web interfaces that aren't a total PITA?

Ain't just banks. The number of companies that lose your order/basket
if you pause for a few minutes is huge. I could put up with having to
login again (or use some password to reactivate a session), but losing
the list of carefully identified and chosen items is enough to make me
want to go elsewhere. And, if possible, I do.

What compounds the annoyance/irksomeness factor is that you are
rarely, if ever, told that this happens.


I thought shopping baskets were cookies. Mine seem to stay intact, even
if I don't go back to the site for a few days

They might be. But try going to 7dayshop and putting a few things in
your basket. They will disappear after a time (not sure how long). Other
sites are worse - but that one I remember have caught me out several
times. :-(

The Axminster and Screwfix ones are quite sophisticated. And do not lose
items.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:13:33 GMT, Stuart Noble
wrote:

Rod wrote:
John Stumbles wrote:


So what banks have sensible web interfaces that aren't a total PITA?

Ain't just banks. The number of companies that lose your order/basket if
you pause for a few minutes is huge. I could put up with having to login
again (or use some password to reactivate a session), but losing the
list of carefully identified and chosen items is enough to make me want
to go elsewhere. And, if possible, I do.

What compounds the annoyance/irksomeness factor is that you are rarely,
if ever, told that this happens.


I thought shopping baskets were cookies. Mine seem to stay intact, even
if I don't go back to the site for a few days

They don't all work that way but yesterday I went to an angling
supplies site that still had a couple of items in My Basket from a
couple of months ago where I hadn't completed the sale .
I was puzzled at first why I was buying £64 worth instead of the £27
I expected. :-)

Stuart Noble wrote:
Rod wrote:
John Stumbles wrote:


So what banks have sensible web interfaces that aren't a total PITA?

Ain't just banks. The number of companies that lose your order/basket
if you pause for a few minutes is huge. I could put up with having to
login again (or use some password to reactivate a session), but losing
the list of carefully identified and chosen items is enough to make me
want to go elsewhere. And, if possible, I do.

What compounds the annoyance/irksomeness factor is that you are
rarely, if ever, told that this happens.


I thought shopping baskets were cookies. Mine seem to stay intact, even
if I don't go back to the site for a few days


They are, but you can set timeouts on a cookie.


Do you want someone randomly inserting cookies into their browser and
trying every online bank till they find one that matches, and that is
still 'live'..

With a stateless protocol, there is no way the banks can tell if you are
still online, or if its someone else using your cookies..and cookies can
be read by any site you visit..in theory. Though browsers are getting
clued up to that one.

Rod wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
Rod wrote:
John Stumbles wrote:


So what banks have sensible web interfaces that aren't a total PITA?

Ain't just banks. The number of companies that lose your order/basket
if you pause for a few minutes is huge. I could put up with having to
login again (or use some password to reactivate a session), but
losing the list of carefully identified and chosen items is enough to
make me want to go elsewhere. And, if possible, I do.

What compounds the annoyance/irksomeness factor is that you are
rarely, if ever, told that this happens.


I thought shopping baskets were cookies. Mine seem to stay intact,
even if I don't go back to the site for a few days

They might be. But try going to 7dayshop and putting a few things in
your basket. They will disappear after a time (not sure how long). Other
sites are worse - but that one I remember have caught me out several
times. :-(

The Axminster and Screwfix ones are quite sophisticated. And do not lose
items.


The trick is to use a persistent cookie for the shopping basket, and
only use a temporary one for the checkout.

Like its no big deal if someone steals your trolley before its been
checked out.

Its when the trolley has our credit card details stamped on it..

Rod wrote:
John Stumbles wrote:


So what banks have sensible web interfaces that aren't a total PITA?

Ain't just banks. The number of companies that lose your order/basket if
you pause for a few minutes is huge. I could put up with having to login
again (or use some password to reactivate a session), but losing the
list of carefully identified and chosen items is enough to make me want
to go elsewhere. And, if possible, I do.

What compounds the annoyance/irksomeness factor is that you are rarely,
if ever, told that this happens.

Some will also have different behaviour depending on if you are logged
in. CPC for example - if you log in an add stuff to the basket and then
leave it - it will time out, log you out, and clear the basket. Log back
in again later however and it will restore the basket. So it seems they
track the basket centrally.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Feb 2, 12:16*am, John Stumbles wrote:
Having just spent half a day trying to set up new bank accounts to replace
our Coop Freeflow which they're closing in a few weeks (recent thread
passim) I've realised one extra desiderata (desideratum?) - that the
online banking interface doesn't automatically log you out if you go off
to get a cup of tea, go to the bog, answer the phone or are just slow
typing.

I don't mind if it locks me out and wants some credentials to get
going again (like a screensaver with password to unlock - I've got that on
my PC anyway) but this evening I just tried to set up a joint account for
me & SWMBO. First logout happened when I came to the terms & conditions
page. It was obviously designed only for speed-readers, or those who
blindly click 'accept' to anything without reading it. By the time I'd
given it a reasonably cursory scan the damn' system had timed me out. But
at least I hadn't got far along with the application at that point.

However there's a page where you've got to enter a great scad of personal
information plus your 5 bits of security information - in duplicate! I got
through that OK but then they want the SO's. Now she's barely getting to
grips with pooters at the moment - can just about log in and google for
what's on at the flicks. By the time she'd entered all the info they
wanted their system had given up and gone home.

I mean, FFS, this was 'smile' (I didn't :-() who are part of the same
sodding bank, the Coop. All they've got to do is authenticate that I am
who I say I am, and that she is who she says she is, and pass over the
info they already have on the old account to set up the new one. What
could be simpler than that? But no, I expect the money they could have
used to get some clueful IT people to make a flexible workable system got
spent on fuelling some pony-tailed 'creative' types' cocaine habits to
produce a cute little pink arc that resembles a smile, for a logo.

So what banks have sensible web interfaces that aren't a total PITA?

--
John Stumbles

My karma ran over my dogma

Smile is great to use once you've actually set it up, although I
remember that was a pain. The timeout is fairly short, but the login
info doesn't take long, and doesn't require the kind of bizarre
passwords that no-one stands a chance of remembering that some banks
use. We have online accounts with several banks, and Smile is by far
the best in day to day use. Plus they don't try and make life
difficult if you want to do anything at a branch or by phone.

If getting the info in at the initial setup stage is the problem, why
not enter it for her? Otherwise, they'll have a telephone team to
assist with the setup for people with special needs of various kinds,
and being slow at typing could probably count!

A

On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 08:03:03 -0800, wrote:

If getting the info in at the initial setup stage is the problem, why
not enter it for her?

Partly because I don't see why she should have to disclose her personal
security information to me, anymore than I would want to have to do to her.

Otherwise, they'll have a telephone team to
not enter it for her? Otherwise, they'll have a telephone team to
assist with the setup for people with special needs of various kinds,
and being slow at typing could probably count!

I explained that it's partially due to her dyslexia and that I though
they were, in effect, discriminating against her and others with that
disability by requiring their users to be quick at typing - what about
severely disabled people who have to type with mouth-operated pointers and
such like? They were quite sniffy about how I was the only person
who'd ever brought it up and they couldn't go around implementing every
suggestion made by every customer (or in this case: non-, and not-to-be-,
customer).

And that's the other reason I didn't want to apply for my SO: because I
don't want to deal with an outfit that discriminates against her and
doesn't (judging by the phone droid's attitude) give a toss about it.

Good, with money, my arse :-


--
John Stumbles

Procrastinate now!

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

With a stateless protocol, there is no way the banks can tell if you are
still online, or if its someone else using your cookies..and cookies can
be read by any site you visit..in theory. Though browsers are getting
clued up to that one.

In theory they can't be read by anyone other than the site that put them
there.
There have been bugs which allowed them to be read by other sites.

John Stumbles wrote:
On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 08:03:03 -0800, wrote:

If getting the info in at the initial setup stage is the problem, why
not enter it for her?

Partly because I don't see why she should have to disclose her personal
security information to me, anymore than I would want to have to do to her.

Otherwise, they'll have a telephone team to
not enter it for her? Otherwise, they'll have a telephone team to
assist with the setup for people with special needs of various kinds,
and being slow at typing could probably count!

I explained that it's partially due to her dyslexia and that I though
they were, in effect, discriminating against her and others with that
disability by requiring their users to be quick at typing - what about
severely disabled people who have to type with mouth-operated pointers and
such like? They were quite sniffy about how I was the only person
who'd ever brought it up and they couldn't go around implementing every
suggestion made by every customer (or in this case: non-, and not-to-be-,
customer).

I can understand your dissatisfaction with their response. However, for
anyone forced to use this type of system, there is a "work around" that
will keep you from being logged out:

Right click on a link on the site and select "open in new window" (or
tab etc). Now follow your form link as normal and start filling, from
time to time hit refresh on the other window to keep the session alive.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Stumbles wrote:

However there's a page where you've got to enter a great scad of personal
information plus your 5 bits of security information - in duplicate! I got
through that OK but then they want the SO's. Now she's barely getting to
grips with pooters at the moment - can just about log in and google for
what's on at the flicks. By the time she'd entered all the info they
wanted their system had given up and gone home.

That sounds like a clear breach of the Disability Discrimination Act, so you
should complain.

Jonathan Bryce wrote:
John Stumbles wrote:

However there's a page where you've got to enter a great scad of personal
information plus your 5 bits of security information - in duplicate! I got
through that OK but then they want the SO's. Now she's barely getting to
grips with pooters at the moment - can just about log in and google for
what's on at the flicks. By the time she'd entered all the info they
wanted their system had given up and gone home.

That sounds like a clear breach of the Disability Discrimination Act, so you
should complain.

So is not hiring blind people for airlinee pilots. I should complain
about that as well.

Oh and legless people as construction workers.

And illiterates to read editorial copy.

Get real.

I couldn't get a job as a super model either. Apparently my tits aren't
big enough and my balls would spoil the thong appearance.

This world is full of unfair discrimination.

On Mon, 2 Feb 2009 21:09:29 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

With a stateless protocol, there is no way the banks can tell if you are
still online, or if its someone else using your cookies..and cookies can
be read by any site you visit..in theory. Though browsers are getting
clued up to that one.

In theory they can't be read by anyone other than the site that put them
there.
There have been bugs which allowed them to be read by other sites.

I just use a single session in Opera, need to have cookies on, then when
finished Sign Off, click on a toolbar button that runs Delete Private Data
and all history, cookies, cache etc. are cleared and the browser closed.
I might be paranoid - I'm the only user of this computer.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

So is not hiring blind people for airlinee pilots. I should complain
about that as well.

Oh and legless people as construction workers.

And illiterates to read editorial copy.

Get real.

I couldn't get a job as a super model either. Apparently my tits aren't
big enough and my balls would spoil the thong appearance.

This world is full of unfair discrimination.

Airlines are required to take reasonable steps to ensure that blind people
can travel on their planes.

Similarly, companies are required to take reasonable steps to ensure that
disabled people can use their websites. The World Wide Web Consortium
publishes guidelines about how you should do this which you can find at
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ . One of these guidelines relates to time-outs
which is what this particular person was having problems with.
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#time-limits

John Rumm wrote:

John Stumbles wrote:

So what banks have sensible web interfaces that aren't a total PITA?

Well of all that I have tried so far (probably half a dozen or more of
the high street big names, de-mutulaised building socs, and some of the
internet only ones) I would say that Barclays have the best online front
end by far. You can do most stuff relatively easily. However they do
have a timeout[1] of about 10 mins or so IIRC.

Unfortunately Barclays have by far the worst call centre staff of any bank
I've phoned.

In message et, at
10:09:30 on Mon, 2 Feb 2009, Dave Liquorice
wibbled
On 2 Feb 2009 00:16:15 GMT, John Stumbles wrote:

So what banks have sensible web interfaces that aren't a total PITA?

HSBC Business pops up a little window after about 10mins of inactivity
before it logs you off. You have buttons with options to remain logged in,
log off now or it will log you off after 30 seconds anyway. Don't know if
HSBC "Domestic" works the same way.

7 minutes before the popup and then a 60 second timeout before you are
automatically logged out.

The time out is essential IMHO. People just cannot be trusted to log out
when they have finished. The times I've come across an unattended works PC
left logged into the network and logged into somewhere else is far too
frequent.

True enough. I've seen MSN Messenger installed for All Users and then
set to automatic login. *That* was a work placement bod who, needless
to say, did not get the IT job he was after.

I could have bought loads of things on eBay or written
interesting things on peoples Face Book pages... I've yet to come across
an open bank account login but I have found the you have been "logged off
page".

Saw an open bank account once. Walked into a hotel lounge and spotted an
unattended laptop that was logged into HSBC BIB and on the CHAPS payment
page. Oops.

--
Pedt

On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 22:23:03 +0000, Pedt wrote:

Saw an open bank account once. Walked into a hotel lounge and spotted an
unattended laptop that was logged into HSBC BIB and on the CHAPS payment
page. Oops.

The ironic thing in this case is that the banks are quite happy to have
people using their systems from Windows machines, many of which are
undoubtedly crawling with malware (not counting Windows itself ;-) and for
all that the banks' T&Cs pages blather on about how you should be running
antivirus s/w and so on) but here, at home, we're on a Debian Linux
system, patched up to date, behind a (NAT) firewall, with separate user
accounts set to lock (with password to unlock) after a few minutes'
inactivity.

--
John Stumbles

Question Authority

Pedt wrote:

Saw an open bank account once. Walked into a hotel lounge and spotted an
unattended laptop that was logged into HSBC BIB and on the CHAPS payment
page. Oops.

What do you mean "oops"? There's nothing you could usufully have
done with it to your advantage (like stealing money by sending
yourself some), because all such transfers are traceable, so as
soon as the owner noticed the unintended transaction and reported
it, they'd know very soon who was responsible.

So unless you had the foresight to set up a receiving account
anonymously, somehow getting round all this MLR identity stuff,
you couldn't get away with it. Even then you you would have
to empty that account by cash machine withdrawals before the
account got identified and frozen.

It may be that it might not matter to you if they know who did it,
but then the amount in question would have to be large enough to
be worth sacrificing your established identity, doing a disappearing
act, and starting a new life in Brazil or wherever. Would need to
be at least a million, I reckon.

Besides, the laptop may not have been as unattended as you think.
The owner may have just gone to the other side of the room to
the coffee machine, and have it in sight all the time. Or nipped
to the bog, or outside for a fag, and be liable to re-appear at
any moment. You'd need to be both quick and lucky to complete
the transfer before said re-appearance.

"Ronald Raygun" wrote in message
om...
Pedt wrote:

Saw an open bank account once. Walked into a hotel lounge and spotted an
unattended laptop that was logged into HSBC BIB and on the CHAPS payment
page. Oops.

What do you mean "oops"? There's nothing you could usufully have
done with it to your advantage (like stealing money by sending
yourself some), because all such transfers are traceable, so as
soon as the owner noticed the unintended transaction and reported
it, they'd know very soon who was responsible.

So unless you had the foresight to set up a receiving account
anonymously, somehow getting round all this MLR identity stuff,
you couldn't get away with it. Even then you you would have
to empty that account by cash machine withdrawals before the
account got identified and frozen.

It may be that it might not matter to you if they know who did it,
but then the amount in question would have to be large enough to
be worth sacrificing your established identity, doing a disappearing
act, and starting a new life in Brazil or wherever. Would need to
be at least a million, I reckon.

Besides, the laptop may not have been as unattended as you think.
The owner may have just gone to the other side of the room to
the coffee machine, and have it in sight all the time. Or nipped
to the bog, or outside for a fag, and be liable to re-appear at
any moment. You'd need to be both quick and lucky to complete
the transfer before said re-appearance.


And another thing... some banks (but not HSBC, IIRC) require p/word to be
re-entered as the final step of making a xfer. Irritating when safely doing
stuff at home - but re-assuring when grabbing that coffee in the hotel
lobby.


--
Martin

Martin wrote:
"Ronald Raygun" wrote in message
om...
Pedt wrote:

Saw an open bank account once. Walked into a hotel lounge and spotted an
unattended laptop that was logged into HSBC BIB and on the CHAPS payment
page. Oops.
What do you mean "oops"? There's nothing you could usufully have
done with it to your advantage (like stealing money by sending
yourself some), because all such transfers are traceable, so as
soon as the owner noticed the unintended transaction and reported
it, they'd know very soon who was responsible.

So unless you had the foresight to set up a receiving account
anonymously, somehow getting round all this MLR identity stuff,
you couldn't get away with it. Even then you you would have
to empty that account by cash machine withdrawals before the
account got identified and frozen.

It may be that it might not matter to you if they know who did it,
but then the amount in question would have to be large enough to
be worth sacrificing your established identity, doing a disappearing
act, and starting a new life in Brazil or wherever. Would need to
be at least a million, I reckon.

Besides, the laptop may not have been as unattended as you think.
The owner may have just gone to the other side of the room to
the coffee machine, and have it in sight all the time. Or nipped
to the bog, or outside for a fag, and be liable to re-appear at
any moment. You'd need to be both quick and lucky to complete
the transfer before said re-appearance.


And another thing... some banks (but not HSBC, IIRC) require p/word to be
re-entered as the final step of making a xfer. Irritating when safely doing
stuff at home - but re-assuring when grabbing that coffee in the hotel
lobby.

Other than have moved to two factor authentication, now require you use
your pin sentry device to create a new payee. So you would not be able
to setup a payment to a new account without also have the device and the
account owners debit card, and also knowing his pin.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 13:19:57 +0000, Ronald Raygun wrote:

Pedt wrote:

Saw an open bank account once. Walked into a hotel lounge and spotted an
unattended laptop that was logged into HSBC BIB and on the CHAPS payment
page. Oops.

What do you mean "oops"? There's nothing you could usufully have
done with it to your advantage

Could've nicked the laptop ;-)

--
John Stumbles

Extreme moderate

John Stumbles wrote:

The ironic thing in this case is that the banks are quite happy to have
people using their systems from Windows machines, many of which are
undoubtedly crawling with malware (not counting Windows itself ;-) and for
all that the banks' T&Cs pages blather on about how you should be running
antivirus s/w and so on) but here, at home, we're on a Debian Linux
system, patched up to date, behind a (NAT) firewall, with separate user
accounts set to lock (with password to unlock) after a few minutes'
inactivity.

And it is only fairly recently that most banks' websites started working in
anything other than Internet Explorer for Windows.

Jonathan Bryce wrote:
John Stumbles wrote:

The ironic thing in this case is that the banks are quite happy to have
people using their systems from Windows machines, many of which are
undoubtedly crawling with malware (not counting Windows itself ;-) and for
all that the banks' T&Cs pages blather on about how you should be running
antivirus s/w and so on) but here, at home, we're on a Debian Linux
system, patched up to date, behind a (NAT) firewall, with separate user
accounts set to lock (with password to unlock) after a few minutes'
inactivity.

And it is only fairly recently that most banks' websites started working in
anything other than Internet Explorer for Windows.

That might in general be so, I don't know, but I have always used
Firefox (and previously, Mozilla) for the ones I use - HSBC and Alliance
& Leicester. It was a matter of principle to not use IE.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 19:49:12 +0000, Rod wrote:

That might in general be so, I don't know, but I have always used
Firefox (and previously, Mozilla) for the ones I use - HSBC and Alliance
& Leicester. It was a matter of principle to not use IE.

It's a matter of necessity, not principle here. I'm running Linux and I've
never seen any version of IE that worked on any flavour of Unix (although
when I was a software test engineer (in a previous life) there was one
that was supposed to - but (surprise, surprise from Microsoft) it didn't).


--
John Stumbles

Death is nature's way of telling you to slow down

John Stumbles wrote:
On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 19:49:12 +0000, Rod wrote:

That might in general be so, I don't know, but I have always used
Firefox (and previously, Mozilla) for the ones I use - HSBC and Alliance
& Leicester. It was a matter of principle to not use IE.

It's a matter of necessity, not principle here. I'm running Linux and I've
never seen any version of IE that worked on any flavour of Unix (although
when I was a software test engineer (in a previous life) there was one
that was supposed to - but (surprise, surprise from Microsoft) it didn't).

I thought that there were a number ways of running IE under WINE on Linux?

(In fact I think MS used to actually do a version for Solaris and HP-UX
at one point)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 19:48:57 +0000, Jonathan Bryce wrote:

John Stumbles wrote:

The ironic thing in this case is that the banks are quite happy to have
people using their systems from Windows machines, many of which are
undoubtedly crawling with malware (not counting Windows itself ;-) and for
all that the banks' T&Cs pages blather on about how you should be running
antivirus s/w and so on) but here, at home, we're on a Debian Linux
system, patched up to date, behind a (NAT) firewall, with separate user
accounts set to lock (with password to unlock) after a few minutes'
inactivity.

And it is only fairly recently that most banks' websites started working in
anything other than Internet Explorer for Windows.

Used Opera on Nationwide for about 5 years now.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

John Stumbles wrote:
On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 19:49:12 +0000, Rod wrote:

That might in general be so, I don't know, but I have always used
Firefox (and previously, Mozilla) for the ones I use - HSBC and Alliance
& Leicester. It was a matter of principle to not use IE.

It's a matter of necessity, not principle here. I'm running Linux and I've
never seen any version of IE that worked on any flavour of Unix (although
when I was a software test engineer (in a previous life) there was one
that was supposed to - but (surprise, surprise from Microsoft) it didn't).


Understood. I was just taking one part of the issue - the browser.

Many (possibly including the ones I used) said they only supported IE. I
have a feeling one warned me at some point, but I always managed in the end.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

In article , Jonathan
Bryce wrote:
John Stumbles wrote:

The ironic thing in this case is that the banks are quite happy to
have people using their systems from Windows machines, many of which
are undoubtedly crawling with malware (not counting Windows itself ;-)
and for all that the banks' T&Cs pages blather on about how you should
be running antivirus s/w and so on) but here, at home, we're on a
Debian Linux system, patched up to date, behind a (NAT) firewall, with
separate user accounts set to lock (with password to unlock) after a
few minutes' inactivity.

And it is only fairly recently that most banks' websites started working
in anything other than Internet Explorer for Windows.

Barclays from the start of their online banking has worked here using RISC
OS. I had an initial problem and got phone help - but it was just to do
with using caps when entering my name. They were unusual in not just
saying you must use IE or whatever.
I suppose it's a rather plain looking site compared to some - but so
what? It works - and that's the main thing.

--
*Shin: a device for finding furniture in the dark *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.