Anyone have any insight into when the massive drop in bulk copper prices
this year is likely to appear in end products like tube and cable?

Been watching screwfix and nothing's changed much.

Cheers

Tim

In article ,
Tim S writes:
Anyone have any insight into when the massive drop in bulk copper prices
this year is likely to appear in end products like tube and cable?

Been watching screwfix and nothing's changed much.

You might see it in the plumber's merchants and electrical
wholesalers first, although they can be quite pricey in the
first place. I've not looked recently though.
Actually, I'd probably expect it in the likes of Wickes
and B&Q after that, before Screwfix which I imagine has
more long term fixed pricing due to its catalogue.
All just guessing though, as I haven't looked around recently.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Tim S wrote:
Anyone have any insight into when the massive drop in bulk copper prices
this year is likely to appear in end products like tube and cable?

Been watching screwfix and nothing's changed much.

Cheers

Tim
Never?

Loads of people have bought forward contracts in copper.

By the time the depth of the recession is fully appreciated. The
oversupply in the metal will be worked out, and raw prices will rise again.

Tim S wrote:
Anyone have any insight into when the massive drop in bulk copper prices
this year is likely to appear in end products like tube and cable?

Been watching screwfix and nothing's changed much.

Cheers

Tim

When I was in the trade counter the other day, SF had a notice advising
reduced prices on, I think, cables dues to lower copper prices. (It is
possible it was tube or tube and cable. Not buying at the moment so no
personal interest.)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Rod wrote:

When I was in the trade counter the other day, SF had a notice advising
reduced prices on, I think, cables dues to lower copper prices. (It is
possible it was tube or tube and cable. Not buying at the moment so no
personal interest.)

My local branch (Preston, Lancs) - same notice, on both cable and tube
(waiting to get served, nothing better to do than read all the notices).

On the face of it the prices weren't substantially cheaper - maybe
something like 10% - but then I guess the value isn't just in the weight
of the copper.

On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:13:52 +0000, Tim S wrote:

Anyone have any insight into when the massive drop in bulk copper prices
this year is likely to appear in end products like tube and cable?

Been watching screwfix and nothing's changed much.

A lot depends on forward buying and raw materials (and stock) in the
supply chain. Demand is down and supply is overhung from earlier very
high production levels.


Follow the trends here.

http://www.kitcometals.com/charts/co...cal_large.html

End of November is a reasonable prediction for a price drop, the new
year is a dead cert.


--

Mike coughed up some electrons that declared:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:13:52 +0000, Tim S wrote:

Anyone have any insight into when the massive drop in bulk copper prices
this year is likely to appear in end products like tube and cable?

Been watching screwfix and nothing's changed much.

A lot depends on forward buying and raw materials (and stock) in the
supply chain. Demand is down and supply is overhung from earlier very
high production levels.


Follow the trends here.

http://www.kitcometals.com/charts/co...cal_large.html

End of November is a reasonable prediction for a price drop, the new
year is a dead cert.


--

That could be quite good timing. I need a bit of cable now, but the pipe can
wait until the new year.

Now all I have to do is find a CORGI person who doesn't want 1200 quid
(labour) to install and commission a boiler (just the boiler, I'll be doing
the rest).

Or I'll be doing that myself too.

Thanks for all the comments folks!

Cheers

Tim

"Tim S" wrote in message
...
Mike coughed up some electrons that declared:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:13:52 +0000, Tim S wrote:

Anyone have any insight into when the massive drop in bulk copper prices
this year is likely to appear in end products like tube and cable?

Been watching screwfix and nothing's changed much.

A lot depends on forward buying and raw materials (and stock) in the
supply chain. Demand is down and supply is overhung from earlier very
high production levels.


Follow the trends here.

http://www.kitcometals.com/charts/co...cal_large.html

End of November is a reasonable prediction for a price drop, the new
year is a dead cert.


--

That could be quite good timing. I need a bit of cable now, but the pipe
can
wait until the new year.

Now all I have to do is find a CORGI person who doesn't want 1200 quid
(labour) to install and commission a boiler (just the boiler, I'll be
doing
the rest).

Or I'll be doing that myself too.

Thanks for all the comments folks!

Cheers

Tim


How much does it cost for British Gas to do system check? Do you have to be
under one of those contract thingies with them, or do they do a one off
visit?

BigWallop coughed up some electrons that declared:


How much does it cost for British Gas to do system check? Do you have to
be under one of those contract thingies with them, or do they do a one off
visit?

Any CORGI person will do.

A "landlord's" would probably be the most thorough generic inspection - but
they didn't do a flue gas check or pipe-leak tests (but then I didn't ask
them to) when I had one done. A hundred quid or so IIRC.

The "gas safety check" I had done once was even less convincing in it's
thoroughness.

If you're thinking what I'm thinking, I'm tempted to follow the Gas FAQ and
install the ruddy thing myself, then book a check afterwards for the peace
of mind, requesting pipe leak tests and flue gas checks.

The Viessmann installation manual is clear enough, my soldering skills are
now upto it and most of the pipe is outside. It has to be about the easiest
possible installation in the history of boiler installs (because I've
designed it to be easy!). I had the written quote today: 2549 all in. The
boiler and appropriate flue kit costs 800 all in, online.

So that's 1749 labour (I know, overheads, taxes, tools, CORGI etc - but even
so...)


The actual job is roughly:

Run 10m of 22mm copper gas, mostly outside on surface of wall. Run inside
for about 3m to avoid doorway.

Tee off 1/3 way along and through wall for cooker bayonet connector.

Cut flue portal in cavity wall (ground floor, no ladders)

Hang boiler, connect gas and flue.

Connect 2x 3m or so run of copper pipe to thermal store (that will be in and
commissioned by then, by me).

Refill store, bleed (all open vented)

Leak tests on gas, pressure checks as required etc.

Connect boiler to terminal box next to boiler provided by me (I do all the
electrics) - that's permanant L,N,E, call-for-heat L, L,N,E to remote pump.

Commission boiler, check system operation.


--------------
No need to remove old boiler - just cut the gas pipe off.

So, does 1749 seem expensive for the above?

Seems so to me, but I'm open to a reality check.

Anyway, I think part of the problem is the bloke says he doesn't understand
thermal stores (he's honest, he's also Viessmann trained which would buy me
an extra 2 years warranty) but he doesn't really need to. Perhaps his
uncertaintly is causing him to bung a ton of contingency into the fee.

I'll draw it up on a diagram, and ask for a requote, then try for a second
quote from someone else.

This is why I DIY - so much work to get something done at a reasonable
price!

Cheers

Tim

"Tim S" wrote in message
...

Now all I have to do is find a CORGI person who doesn't want 1200 quid
(labour) to install and commission a boiler (just the boiler, I'll be
doing
the rest).

Or I'll be doing that myself too.

Legal.
However some boiler manufacturers are being a pain..
Ravenheat give a three year warranty if its fitted by a Corgi engineer but
not if you do it yourself.
I suspect that this is an unfair condition if someone challenged it in
court.
They also state it has to be fitted correctly just to cover for the stupid
Corgi engineers that are out there.

£500 for a new boiler but if I fit a condensing one I also need new rads.
I wonder how much CO2 the new rads cost?
That's not a combi BTW, I don't want a combi.

dennis@home coughed up some electrons that declared:



"Tim S" wrote in message
...

Now all I have to do is find a CORGI person who doesn't want 1200 quid
(labour) to install and commission a boiler (just the boiler, I'll be
doing
the rest).

Or I'll be doing that myself too.

Legal.
However some boiler manufacturers are being a pain..
Ravenheat give a three year warranty if its fitted by a Corgi engineer but
not if you do it yourself.
I suspect that this is an unfair condition if someone challenged it in
court.
They also state it has to be fitted correctly just to cover for the stupid
Corgi engineers that are out there.
£500 for a new boiler but if I fit a condensing one I also need new rads.
I wonder how much CO2 the new rads cost?
That's not a combi BTW, I don't want a combi.

Part of the advantage of using a thermal store being the decoupling of
boiler from radiators. Having spoken to Viessmann technical (who are very
helpful and don't ask for CORGI roll numbers!), they've told me I'll be
fine charging the store to 75C (hotter the better), but if I can arrange
for the return to be in the region of 45C or less for as much of the time
as possible then the boiler will operate at peak efficiency. Combining a
mixer valve and a speed controllable pump, I'm hoping to be able to satisfy
that, with a less efficient burn towards the end of the cycle to get the
water up the last 10C. (45C return = 65C flow according to documents).

The boiler will be switched on and off in a giant hysteresis loop, which
should help matters.

There's going to be a bit of suck it and see about this, but I'm largely
confident, given there's plenty of scope for tuning things after the fact.

Cheers

Tim

Rod wrote:
Tim S wrote:
Anyone have any insight into when the massive drop in bulk copper prices
this year is likely to appear in end products like tube and cable?

Been watching screwfix and nothing's changed much.

Cheers

Tim

When I was in the trade counter the other day, SF had a notice advising
reduced prices on, I think, cables dues to lower copper prices. (It is
possible it was tube or tube and cable. Not buying at the moment so no
personal interest.)

Saw the same notice in ours the other day - it did mention pipe and
cable. The reductions were fairly small though.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Tim S wrote:

Now all I have to do is find a CORGI person who doesn't want 1200 quid
(labour) to install and commission a boiler (just the boiler, I'll be doing
the rest).

I think I would want that to include the price of the boiler ;-)

Or I'll be doing that myself too.

Tis what I did last time.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

dennis@home wrote:

"Tim S" wrote in message
...

Now all I have to do is find a CORGI person who doesn't want 1200 quid
(labour) to install and commission a boiler (just the boiler, I'll be
doing
the rest).

Or I'll be doing that myself too.

Legal.
However some boiler manufacturers are being a pain..
Ravenheat give a three year warranty if its fitted by a Corgi engineer
but not if you do it yourself.
I suspect that this is an unfair condition if someone challenged it in
court.

If you are not buying it direct from Ravenheat then you have no contract
with them, and their Ts & Cs are not really relevant. Your claim is on
the retailer.


They also state it has to be fitted correctly just to cover for the
stupid Corgi engineers that are out there.

£500 for a new boiler but if I fit a condensing one I also need new rads.

Are your rads already bordering on being undersize? If not I would be
tempted to try it as it is first - you may find them large enough for
the vast bulk of the time.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S wrote:

Now all I have to do is find a CORGI person who doesn't want 1200 quid
(labour) to install and commission a boiler (just the boiler, I'll be
doing the rest).

Oddly enough, I'd budgeted 400 for the install (expecting 400-600).

1700 blew my brain.

I think I would want that to include the price of the boiler ;-)

Or I'll be doing that myself too.

Tis what I did last time.

I haven't had time to do an in-depth on what I need to do (I really expected
to contract this one out), so can I run this by you?

Major things I need to consider:

a) Manometer and spray for leak testing pipe/joints as per FAQ;

b) Pipe sizing - well it's 22mm gas pipe all the way, for the same length of
run as the current boiler, so that should be fine.

c) Dynamic gas pressure test at the boiler.

d) Flue suitable distance from opening windows,doors etc - I know this is
OK. Plus mesh guard as flue is 1.7m off the ground.

e) Check flue gases with hired meter (burner is factory set, so I'm not sure
if this is strictly necessary?)

f) Test for flue gas leakages? (I assume go sniffing around with a
detector???). Or do we assume the flue is good if we assemble it correctly?

Thanks in advance;

Tim

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:

"Tim S" wrote in message
...

Now all I have to do is find a CORGI person who doesn't want 1200 quid
(labour) to install and commission a boiler (just the boiler, I'll be
doing
the rest).

Or I'll be doing that myself too.

Legal.
However some boiler manufacturers are being a pain..
Ravenheat give a three year warranty if its fitted by a Corgi engineer
but not if you do it yourself.
I suspect that this is an unfair condition if someone challenged it in
court.

If you are not buying it direct from Ravenheat then you have no contract
with them, and their Ts & Cs are not really relevant. Your claim is on the
retailer.

True, but its a lot easier if you can just phone for a service engineer.

They also state it has to be fitted correctly just to cover for the
stupid Corgi engineers that are out there.

£500 for a new boiler but if I fit a condensing one I also need new rads.

Are your rads already bordering on being undersize? If not I would be
tempted to try it as it is first - you may find them large enough for the
vast bulk of the time.

They wouldn't meet my original design with a mere 30C temp difference, they
have 55C ATM.
Their outputs will be about 50% less.
Just as well its designed to work down to -10C or it would be very
undersized.

In message , Tim S
writes
BigWallop coughed up some electrons that declared:


How much does it cost for British Gas to do system check? Do you have to
be under one of those contract thingies with them, or do they do a one off
visit?

Any CORGI person will do.

Ed Sirett isn't too far away from you


--
geoff

In message , Tim S
writes
Anyone have any insight into when the massive drop in bulk copper prices
this year is likely to appear in end products like tube and cable?

Been watching screwfix and nothing's changed much.
There was a note on the counter of my local Screwfix on Sunday that says
the prices in the catalogue are now wrong due top the price of copper
dropping and they're happy to pass the savings on.

Cheers

Tim

--
Clint Sharp

On 4 Nov, 19:54, Tim S wrote:
dennis@home coughed up some electrons that declared:





"Tim S" wrote in message
. ..

Now all I have to do is find a CORGI person who doesn't want 1200 quid
(labour) to install and commission a boiler (just the boiler, I'll be
doing
the rest).

Or I'll be doing that myself too.

Legal.
However some boiler manufacturers are being a pain..
Ravenheat give a three year warranty if its fitted by a Corgi engineer but
not if you do it yourself.
I suspect that this is an unfair condition if someone challenged it in
court.
They also state it has to be fitted correctly just to cover for the stupid
Corgi engineers that are out there.
£500 for a new boiler but if I fit a condensing one I also need new rads.
I wonder how much CO2 the new rads cost?
That's not a combi BTW, I don't want a combi.

Part of the advantage of using a thermal store being the decoupling of
boiler from radiators. Having spoken to Viessmann technical (who are very
helpful and don't ask for CORGI roll numbers!), they've told me I'll be
fine charging the store to 75C (hotter the better), but if I can arrange
for the return to be in the region of 45C or less for as much of the time
as possible then the boiler will operate at peak efficiency. Combining a
mixer valve and a speed controllable pump, I'm hoping to be able to satisfy
that, with a less efficient burn towards the end of the cycle to get the
water up the last 10C. (45C return = 65C flow according to documents).

The boiler will be switched on and off in a giant hysteresis loop, which
should help matters.

There's going to be a bit of suck it and see about this, but I'm largely
confident, given there's plenty of scope for tuning things after the fact..

Cheers

Tim

Tim,
May I ask how you went about spec'ing and finding a supplier for the
thermal store?

The bit about a thermal store decoupling the new boiler lower output
temp from the existing radiators has caught my eye - just fallen out
with a "professional" after 1 day - so back to square 2!

thanks
Jim

jim coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim,
May I ask how you went about spec'ing and finding a supplier for the
thermal store?

OK, it's been a long process.

A mate has one of the DPS units (www.heatweb.com based in Epsom, Surrey).

I've also looked at Gledhill and McDonald Engineers.

Pricewise, the DPS units seem very expensive for a copper tank, but the
prices I've been quoted do include all the pumps, mixer valves, auxilliary
heaters and paraphanalia, so I guess that stuff adds up (I've not broken
the price down).

The unit I'm looking at is a CXC-210-AH6ADA-XEJD which you can stick in to
the box near the bootom of their web page to get a schematic up (though I'm
still fiddling with options). Cost, quoted at around 1700 inc VAT. That's a
210 litre system.

A Gledhill BMA215 is around 1300 for a complete system, but lower water
capacity.

McDonald is the cheapest at 900 ish for a Thermflow 210.

DPS seem the most clued up to speak too and the flash designer does allow a
pretty custom system to be put together. They're happy to have a visit if
Surrey is anywhere near you. McDonald are Scottish and I forget where
Gledhill are.

The bit about a thermal store decoupling the new boiler lower output
temp from the existing radiators has caught my eye - just fallen out
with a "professional" after 1 day - so back to square 2!

What I'm looking to do is:

Direct heating of open-vented thermal store from boiler. Twin tank stats and
a bit of relay logic by me will provide a boiler call-for-heat signal.
Boiler will control the pump on the primary circuit.


Same water runs via a mixer valve (top drop the temperature) to the rads off
its own pump, controlled by the heating programmer/stats (multiple zones).

Another take off runs round a plate heat exchanger to provide mains pressure
potable hot water - this circuit's pump is driven by a flow switch on the
HW to taps circuit, so nothing to do here really - it's automatic.

I'll bung a solar coil in at the bottom, just in case I go for some panels
in a few years.

Also, I'm adding 3 x 3kW immersion heaters (code above shows 2, mistake) as
back up if he boiler's out of action. 9kW will go some way to providing HW
and heating a couple of rooms (any couple, by turning some rads off) and
it's a cheap option. These will be wired individually to 3 MCBs off one
isolator, which will be used to engage back up electric heating.

=====

What it gains me is:

No cold water tank (I don't have a loft as such and our mains water is
reliable).

Mains pressure drinkable hot water.

In theory, a simpler boiler setup where the boiler has the best chance to
run efficiently with a long full output burn (perhaps this is less of an
issue than it used to be, but it might make the boiler last longer).

I can run the rads and HW at different temperatures.

Solar input.

Cheers

Tim

"Tim S" wrote in message
...
Anyone have any insight into when the massive drop in bulk copper prices
this year is likely to appear in end products like tube and cable?

Been watching screwfix and nothing's changed much.

Cheers

Tim


It's "Cable" the subject is on about. I thought you wanted Copper Pipe for
your Cabela http://www.cabelas.com . :-)

Tim S wrote:

Now all I have to do is find a CORGI person who doesn't want 1200 quid
(labour) to install and commission a boiler (just the boiler, I'll be
doing the rest).

Oddly enough, I'd budgeted 400 for the install (expecting 400-600).

Sounds more reasonable i you are doing all the leg work... having said
that, if they are turning work away then there is no reason for them to
take the lower paying jobs.


I haven't had time to do an in-depth on what I need to do (I really expected
to contract this one out), so can I run this by you?

Sure...

Major things I need to consider:

a) Manometer and spray for leak testing pipe/joints as per FAQ;

Yup

Pressure drop test before you start - saves hours trying to figure out
where a leak is that you did not create in the first place. Do a let-by
test when do for completeness.

b) Pipe sizing - well it's 22mm gas pipe all the way, for the same length of
run as the current boiler, so that should be fine.

Yup.

(12m of 22 was the limit (only needed 6) for my 35kW boiler IIRC... with
less power you can have a longer run obviously).

c) Dynamic gas pressure test at the boiler.

Yup

d) Flue suitable distance from opening windows,doors etc - I know this is
OK. Plus mesh guard as flue is 1.7m off the ground.

Yup

e) Check flue gases with hired meter (burner is factory set, so I'm not sure
if this is strictly necessary?)

The makers instructions will probably claim not - they did on mine.
Although IIRC, Andy G has posted here in the past about discovering how
far from optimal the factory presets can be.

f) Test for flue gas leakages? (I assume go sniffing around with a
detector???). Or do we assume the flue is good if we assemble it correctly?

With a basic "out the top and through the wall" flue it would be hard to
get it wrong as long as you fit the gasket and do up the screws etc.


All sounds ok. Obviously follow the instructions for commissioning.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Hi John,

Thanks for all that


John Rumm coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S wrote:

snip

(12m of 22 was the limit (only needed 6) for my 35kW boiler IIRC... with
less power you can have a longer run obviously).

Proposed boiler is only 24kW, so that should be fine.

c) Dynamic gas pressure test at the boiler.

Yup


d) Flue suitable distance from opening windows,doors etc - I know this is
OK. Plus mesh guard as flue is 1.7m off the ground.

Yup

I'm tempted to add the short vertical (1m or so high) optional stack -
partly to get the plume out of the face of passing people and partly to
remove the admittedly tiny risk of any combustion products leaking back
into the roof space via soffit vents.

e) Check flue gases with hired meter (burner is factory set, so I'm not
sure if this is strictly necessary?)

The makers instructions will probably claim not - they did on mine.
Although IIRC, Andy G has posted here in the past about discovering how
far from optimal the factory presets can be.

Righty ho. Hire is an option at 100/week for a Kane, or ebay has bottom end
instruments for about 250 with cal cert. Given the overall saving, might be
worth buying and reselling afterwards.

f) Test for flue gas leakages? (I assume go sniffing around with a
detector???). Or do we assume the flue is good if we assemble it
correctly?

With a basic "out the top and through the wall" flue it would be hard to
get it wrong as long as you fit the gasket and do up the screws etc.

Jolly good - that's what we like to hear

All sounds ok. Obviously follow the instructions for commissioning.

One of the benefits of Viessmann is their documents are all online,
including the installer manuals (which appears very thorough). No
masonic-society approach, and I've spoken to their tech support twice and
on both occasions they've been excellent.

I reckon I should be able to do this in about 2 days (with lots of double
checking), given everything else being ready. Actually it will save time,
because I'll do it at the same time as the thermal store, rather than
lashing the current boiler up to it first.

OK - I'll research this a bit more, but I think matey just priced himself
out of the job (maybe he wanted to).

Once again, thanks John

Cheers

Tim

In article ,
Tim S wrote:
One of the benefits of Viessmann is their documents are all online,
including the installer manuals (which appears very thorough). No
masonic-society approach, and I've spoken to their tech support twice and
on both occasions they've been excellent.

I've found their documents assume a thorough knowledge of the product -
more a sort of reminder of the training course you've supposed to have
been on. I did two 'mods' to mine - added weather compensation and an
extra remote programmer (was used to having one on the kitchen wall rather
than having to go to the actual boiler). There were no step by step
instructions on altering the software to incorporate these in the
instructions - I ended up having to ask their tech guys. Who luckily are
very helpful. And it was so complex I can't imagine the average installer
carrying around this information in his head.

--
*Rehab is for quitters

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) coughed up some electrons that declared:

In article ,
Tim S wrote:
One of the benefits of Viessmann is their documents are all online,
including the installer manuals (which appears very thorough). No
masonic-society approach, and I've spoken to their tech support twice and
on both occasions they've been excellent.

I've found their documents assume a thorough knowledge of the product -
more a sort of reminder of the training course you've supposed to have
been on. I did two 'mods' to mine - added weather compensation and an
extra remote programmer (was used to having one on the kitchen wall rather
than having to go to the actual boiler). There were no step by step
instructions on altering the software to incorporate these in the
instructions - I ended up having to ask their tech guys. Who luckily are
very helpful. And it was so complex I can't imagine the average installer
carrying around this information in his head.


Hi Dave,

So did you find any problems during the basic install (before you added the
extra mods) - or are there any gotchas worth knowing about?

I'm fitting the Vitodens Compact 100 which is about the simplest unit they
make (and purposely so).

Cheers

Tim

In article ,
Tim S wrote:
So did you find any problems during the basic install (before you added
the extra mods) - or are there any gotchas worth knowing about?

No - that part was ok. Only slightly strange thing with the Vitodens 200
was they didn't show the safety overflow - despite *all* the other
pipework being very clearly indicated in the installation instructions.

I'm fitting the Vitodens Compact 100 which is about the simplest unit
they make (and purposely so).

My feeling was that a system boiler would suit my needs better -
especially if it came to the point where someone else had to do fault
finding etc.

--
*Why doesn't Tarzan have a beard? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) coughed up some electrons that declared:

In article ,
Tim S wrote:
So did you find any problems during the basic install (before you added
the extra mods) - or are there any gotchas worth knowing about?

No - that part was ok. Only slightly strange thing with the Vitodens 200
was they didn't show the safety overflow - despite *all* the other
pipework being very clearly indicated in the installation instructions.

Thanks Dave. I'll look out for weirdnesses like that,

I'm fitting the Vitodens Compact 100 which is about the simplest unit
they make (and purposely so).

My feeling was that a system boiler would suit my needs better -
especially if it came to the point where someone else had to do fault
finding etc.


I agree. Though a thermal store looks like a hideous beast with all the
pumps, etc, it's actually a fairly modular system.

My reckoning is: store tank will never fail, pumps are bog standard
Grundfoss units, mixers valves are probably the most esoteric part. I'm not
even going to bother with DPS's fancy controller module. I'd rather take
the two tanks stats via a relay box back to the boiler along with the
boiler pump. Power for the HW circuit pump and room-stat-timer control to
the rad pump.

Immersions are 3kW units (bog standard) rather than the slightly odd 6kW
option that needs external dry-overheat protection.

So, despite it being a very custom system overall, absolutely everything
likely to be a maintenance item will a standard device. Same with the
boiler. One circuit, full power when asked for, don't even need a
modulating burner AFAICS, though that's probably hard to avoid.

The only thing I'm not bothering with (probably) is the UFH options. I'll
have a max of two UFH installations and I reckon it's probably easier to
put in a local mixer/pump for each one off the rad circuit. But I'm open to
reconsidering that one.

Cheers

Tim

Clint Sharp coughed up some electrons that declared:

In message , Tim S
writes
Anyone have any insight into when the massive drop in bulk copper prices
this year is likely to appear in end products like tube and cable?

Been watching screwfix and nothing's changed much.
There was a note on the counter of my local Screwfix on Sunday that says
the prices in the catalogue are now wrong due top the price of copper
dropping and they're happy to pass the savings on.

Cheers

Tim


Aye, their web site says " Latest competitive prices, inline with commodity
fluctuations.", 110 quid for 30m of 22mm

Seems to have been at that price for a while - perhaps it's already seen a
lot of the drop?...

Cheers

Tim

In article ,
Tim S wrote:
My feeling was that a system boiler would suit my needs better -
especially if it came to the point where someone else had to do fault
finding etc.


I agree. Though a thermal store looks like a hideous beast with all the
pumps, etc, it's actually a fairly modular system.

My reckoning is: store tank will never fail, pumps are bog standard
Grundfoss units, mixers valves are probably the most esoteric part. I'm not
even going to bother with DPS's fancy controller module. I'd rather take
the two tanks stats via a relay box back to the boiler along with the
boiler pump. Power for the HW circuit pump and room-stat-timer control to
the rad pump.

Immersions are 3kW units (bog standard) rather than the slightly odd 6kW
option that needs external dry-overheat protection.

So, despite it being a very custom system overall, absolutely everything
likely to be a maintenance item will a standard device. Same with the
boiler. One circuit, full power when asked for, don't even need a
modulating burner AFAICS, though that's probably hard to avoid.

My feeling was that modulating burners and variable speed pumps all under
the control of the main microprocessor are desirable to increase the
overall efficiency of the system, as are sensors rather than stats.

--
*Never slap a man who's chewing tobacco *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Nov 5, 10:34*am, Tim S wrote:
Aye, their web site says " Latest competitive prices, inline with commodity
fluctuations.", 110 quid for 30m of 22mm

Thats not competitive at £3.66 / metre. If you can drag an OAP to the
orange shed on Wednesday then you can get it for £2.66/metre. Ironic
as they are both owned by the same group.

Dave

On 4 Nov, 23:47, Tim S wrote:
jim coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim,
May I ask how you went about spec'ing and finding a supplier for the
thermal store?

OK, it's been a long process.

A mate has one of the DPS units (www.heatweb.combased in Epsom, Surrey).

I've also looked at Gledhill and McDonald Engineers.

Pricewise, the DPS units seem very expensive for a copper tank, but the
prices I've been quoted do include all the pumps, mixer valves, auxilliary
heaters and paraphanalia, so I guess that stuff adds up (I've not broken
the price down).

The unit I'm looking at is a CXC-210-AH6ADA-XEJD which you can stick in to
the box near the bootom of their web page to get a schematic up (though I'm
still fiddling with options). Cost, quoted at around 1700 inc VAT. That's a
210 litre system.

A Gledhill BMA215 is around 1300 for a complete system, but lower water
capacity.

McDonald is the cheapest at 900 ish for a Thermflow 210.

DPS seem the most clued up to speak too and the flash designer does allow a
pretty custom system to be put together. They're happy to have a visit if
Surrey is anywhere near you. McDonald are Scottish and I forget where
Gledhill are.

The bit about a thermal store decoupling the new boiler lower output
temp from the existing radiators has caught my eye - just fallen out
with a "professional" after 1 day - so back to square 2!

What I'm looking to do is:

Direct heating of open-vented thermal store from boiler. Twin tank stats and
a bit of relay logic by me will provide a boiler call-for-heat signal.
Boiler will control the pump on the primary circuit.

Same water runs via a mixer valve (top drop the temperature) to the rads off
its own pump, controlled by the heating programmer/stats (multiple zones).

Another take off runs round a plate heat exchanger to provide mains pressure
potable hot water - this circuit's pump is driven by a flow switch on the
HW to taps circuit, so nothing to do here really - it's automatic.

I'll bung a solar coil in at the bottom, just in case I go for some panels
in a few years.

Also, I'm adding 3 x 3kW immersion heaters (code above shows 2, mistake) as
back up if he boiler's out of action. 9kW will go some way to providing HW
and heating a couple of rooms (any couple, by turning some rads off) and
it's a cheap option. These will be wired individually to 3 MCBs off one
isolator, which will be used to engage back up electric heating.

=====

What it gains me is:

No cold water tank (I don't have a loft as such and our mains water is
reliable).

Mains pressure drinkable hot water.

In theory, a simpler boiler setup where the boiler has the best chance to
run efficiently with a long full output burn (perhaps this is less of an
issue than it used to be, but it might make the boiler last longer).

I can run the rads and HW at different temperatures.

Solar input.

Cheers

Tim

tim thanks for the rundown - can i also ask what the twin tank stats
(& your relay stuff) give you over a single one?
also on the DPS designer thing - what are the "upper detect circuit"
and "lower detect circuit" about?

cheers
Jim

jim coughed up some electrons that declared:

tim thanks for the rundown - can i also ask what the twin tank stats
(& your relay stuff) give you over a single one?

Hysteresis. eg, boiler doesn't fire until the top stat gets cold and keeps
firing until the bottom stat gets hot again.

All single stats have some natural hysteresis, but in this application it's
relatively tiny, so with a single stat (near the bottom, above the solar
coil) the boiler would heat up the tank, then keep switching on and off in
fairly short cycles everytime a little heat was taken out of the tank.

This is fine for electric heaters, but not so good for boilers.

DPS will sell you a control unit that handles the twin stats, but it does
(IIRC, I discounted it fairly early on) more other things than I need, it's
a proprietary component (so's my contoller, but mine will be assembled from
DIN relays and terminals, so it's easy to repair).

also on the DPS designer thing - what are the "upper detect circuit"
and "lower detect circuit" about?

You don't want the tank becoming 100% depleted by the radiators, so the take
off for the rads is not at the top - you always want a reserve amount of
hot water to make, well, ho****er for the taps. The circuit that drives the
plate heat exchanger (for taps) is taken off right near the top, so you
always have 1/3, maybe 1/2 (depending on exact design) of a tank of hot
water ready for taps and showers.

Cheers

Tim

On 4 Nov, 13:13, Tim S wrote:
Anyone have any insight into when the massive drop in bulk copper prices
this year is likely to appear in end products like tube and cable?

Day after your "tracker" mortgage drops to follow the new base rate.
8-(