Stephen Howard wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 08:40:18 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

There goes the electric guitar then. Heaven knows how it made it this
far.
Mainly because it makes a lot of noise with minimal effort, and requires
endless accessories. Kids should listen to Jimi Hendrix and Segovia.

How about Joe Pass, Bill Frisell, Wes Montgomery...maximum effort, not
much noise.

Regards,



The more the merrier, but I draw the line at Bill Frisell :-)

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
I will assume anyone that has the stupidity to think a producer of a TV
program knows anything about bridges is, well, thick.

Producers of TV progs don't need to be an expert on their subject. They
should employ others who are.

Yebbut the producers don't know how to tell the difference between those who
do know their subject and those who don't.

Mary

"Graeme" wrote in message

My wife would love one (she plays, but does not have a piano), and have
seen them on Freecycle occasionally, but are put off by the imagined (?)
problems of moving, tuning etc.

About the weight of a car engine.

My thanks to everyone who commented regarding moving (and tuning) a
piano. Does not sound quite as bad as I had imagined, assuming there
are no stairs involved.

"Dad, d'you know the piano is on my foot?" ...
--
Graeme

Signal wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

You are an old fart as I have said.
Just because it doesn't look like a piano is enough to make you claim it
isn't a piano.
Tell the musicians that play electric violins that they aren't violins.
They don't sound like violins either...

They do sound like electric violins.




"You would not think, to look at him, that he was famous long ago..
for playing the electric violin on Desolation, Row.."





--
S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t

Stephen Howard wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:12:26 +0000, Stephen Howard
wrote:


You can have Stanley Jordan then...even more effort!

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=baDM3_6w8-E

Oh yeah!!

Regards,



Like most modern jazz, incredibly skillful and clever, and leaves me
totally cold..

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Stephen Howard wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 08:29:46 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Stephen Howard wrote:
But maybe kids need to hear acoustic sound. It's just musical
typewriting otherwise
There goes the electric guitar then. Heaven knows how it made it this
far.
The electric guitar is an instrument in its own right.

Sure it is, but it isn't musical typewriting.

I didn't say it was. Nor agree with the statement.

Maybe what kids need is a decent instrument and a sound that inspires
them - and lord knows I've seen my fair share of clunky old uprights
gathering dust simply because they're as uninspiring to play as a
cheese banjo.
That's a totally different argument.

Not if you're a kid sat at a clunky old upright.

I'm just saying an electric piano doesn't sound like a real one - anymore
than an electric guitar sounds like an acoustic one, or a drum generator
sound like a drum kit. However much place they may have in modern music.
I'm not even saying I don't like them.


Actually they can do, but its a bit of a waste of time to make them that
way, since the acoustic stuff already exists, works well, and does the
same job.

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:50:57 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Stephen Howard wrote:
Of course. The difficulty of transporting a real piano has been
mentioned - and then there's the small matter of getting an output from
it to feed to the PA. In other words, exactly the reason the 'electric
piano' was invented.

For sure, but I was referring to the sort of gigs where there's
somewhere to land your helicopter behind the stage and every bit of
kit's on a rolling palett

And fix it and tune it, of course. Which can be very difficult to do at
many gigs - even where money is no object.

Not really, I've been on quite modest gigs where a grand has been used
- the last one being with Kit and the Widow in a marquee in someone's
back garden.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:57:48 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

Stephen Howard wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 08:40:18 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

There goes the electric guitar then. Heaven knows how it made it this
far.
Mainly because it makes a lot of noise with minimal effort, and requires
endless accessories. Kids should listen to Jimi Hendrix and Segovia.

How about Joe Pass, Bill Frisell, Wes Montgomery...maximum effort, not
much noise.

Regards,



The more the merrier, but I draw the line at Bill Frisell :-)

You can have Stanley Jordan then...even more effort!

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
No, its because I'm a musician and you are not

You are an old fart as I have said.
Just because it doesn't look like a piano is enough to make you claim it
isn't a piano.
Tell the musicians that play electric violins that they aren't violins.

They don't sound like violins either...

But they are violins.
Played the same way, different sounds.


Its you that is wrong here not I.

I'd suggest you get yourself away from your electronic devices and try
listing to the real thing. You may not like it as much - your prerogative
- but at least you should hear the difference.

I do, CBSO are pretty good.
Best seats in the house when my daughter worked there.

I just don't think a cheap upright is as good as a cheap digital.
It certainly isn't as good as a mid range digital even if you tune it
frequently.

I think geoff is confusing a digital piano with a stylophone.

I wonder what he would make of one of these?
http://www.yamaha-europe.com/yamaha_...000/index.html

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...


I helped choose a real Yamaha grand for the recording studio at a place I
used to work at.

So, no?

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:12:26 +0000, Stephen Howard
wrote:



You can have Stanley Jordan then...even more effort!

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=baDM3_6w8-E

Oh yeah!!

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

"Graeme" wrote in message
...
"Graeme" wrote in message

My wife would love one (she plays, but does not have a piano), and have
seen them on Freecycle occasionally, but are put off by the imagined
(?)
problems of moving, tuning etc.

About the weight of a car engine.

My thanks to everyone who commented regarding moving (and tuning) a piano.
Does not sound quite as bad as I had imagined, assuming there are no
stairs involved.

"Dad, d'you know the piano is on my foot?" ...

Altogether now ...

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:57:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Stephen Howard wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:12:26 +0000, Stephen Howard
wrote:


You can have Stanley Jordan then...even more effort!

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=baDM3_6w8-E

Oh yeah!!

Like most modern jazz, incredibly skillful and clever, and leaves me
totally cold..

For sure, it's not Kenny Ball or Acker Bilk - and often has the same
effect that, say, a good red wine or a fine cheese has on many a
coarse palate.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

On Aug 25, 7:15*am, "endymion"
wrote:
*I have a millstone . Its an old piano. Iron frame 1920's upright. Good
working order and tuned every six months. The problem is I don't want it. I
cant play and never use it. *Its in the way. The trouble is no one else
seems to want it either. *I have tried giving it away via the adds in the
paper. I have tried asking a house clearance to come and move it and even
said I would pay costs. No one will even come and take it to the tip for me.

How do you get rid of a piano like this?

Stupid suggestion?????
Especially since you are willing to help (pay) something to move it;
can you donate it to a seniors' home? Or a school? You might even get
a small 'donation' tax write-off?

In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
I will assume anyone that has the stupidity to think a producer of a
TV program knows anything about bridges is, well, thick.

Producers of TV progs don't need to be an expert on their subject.
They should employ others who are.

Yebbut the producers don't know how to tell the difference between those
who do know their subject and those who don't.

I'm sure there are plenty of poor producers as well as good ones. But like
Marys they're not all the same.

--
*When you've seen one shopping centre you've seen a mall*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

endymion wrote:

How do you get rid of a piano like this?

You need a group of Japanese 'artists'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z09Zn9TCEZw#

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I'm just saying an electric piano doesn't sound like a real one -
anymore than an electric guitar sounds like an acoustic one, or a drum
generator sound like a drum kit. However much place they may have in
modern music. I'm not even saying I don't like them.


Actually they can do,

No they can't. Nothing coming out of a loudspeaker - or even pair - can
match the interaction between soundboard, hammers/strings etc and the
acoustics of the room.

but its a bit of a waste of time to make them that
way, since the acoustic stuff already exists, works well, and does the
same job.

Anyone who has ever worked in a recording studio would be delighted to be
able to get shot of the real piano. They take up a lot of room and cost a
deal to tune and maintain. But like all instruments they will never be
replaced by a synthesizer or sampler - except where the type of music
calls for that specific sound. Ie, the cheap to make sort.

--
*Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Stephen Howard wrote:
And fix it and tune it, of course. Which can be very difficult to do at
many gigs - even where money is no object.

Not really, I've been on quite modest gigs where a grand has been used
- the last one being with Kit and the Widow in a marquee in someone's
back garden.

Last time I saw them they worked unaccompanied. So the pitch of the piano
wouldn't be critical. On other gigs it might well be.

But I couldn't imagine them or Hinge and Bracket (sadly missed) working to
an electric piano. Or Elton John. A proper piano is part of the experience.

--
*One of us is thinking about sex... OK, it's me.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

endymion wrote:
I have a millstone . Its an old piano. Iron frame 1920's upright. Good
working order and tuned every six months. The problem is I don't want
it. I cant play and never use it. Its in the way. The trouble is no one
else seems to want it either. I have tried giving it away via the adds
in the paper. I have tried asking a house clearance to come and move it
and even said I would pay costs. No one will even come and take it to
the tip for me.

How do you get rid of a piano like this?

Increase the price? Seriously...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Stephen Howard wrote:
And fix it and tune it, of course. Which can be very difficult to do at
many gigs - even where money is no object.

Not really, I've been on quite modest gigs where a grand has been used
- the last one being with Kit and the Widow in a marquee in someone's
back garden.

Last time I saw them they worked unaccompanied. So the pitch of the piano
wouldn't be critical. On other gigs it might well be.

But I couldn't imagine them or Hinge and Bracket (sadly missed)

Oh yes sob

Mary

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I'm just saying an electric piano doesn't sound like a real one -
anymore than an electric guitar sounds like an acoustic one, or a drum
generator sound like a drum kit. However much place they may have in
modern music. I'm not even saying I don't like them.


Actually they can do,

No they can't. Nothing coming out of a loudspeaker - or even pair - can
match the interaction between soundboard, hammers/strings etc and the
acoustics of the room.

but its a bit of a waste of time to make them that
way, since the acoustic stuff already exists, works well, and does the
same job.

Anyone who has ever worked in a recording studio would be delighted to be
able to get shot of the real piano. They take up a lot of room and cost a
deal to tune and maintain. But like all instruments they will never be
replaced by a synthesizer or sampler - except where the type of music
calls for that specific sound. Ie, the cheap to make sort.

I'm not sure that we should say 'never'. I just hope it's not in my
lifetime.

Mary

dennis@home wrote:
Lets stick geoff in Dudley town hall with his upright and my daughter
with her Korg and a few hundred people (yes she has done that) and
see which gets the best response.

Dudley? You live in Dudley? Bloody hell that explains a lot...



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
good grief, it isn't hard..every time I hear Clarkson say 'its got 300
torques' I cringe...


I'm pretty sure he knows that's silly.

But since I attach no importance to the torque output of an engine (I
care about power output, power spread, and efficiency) I've never
bothered to work out what units he means.

Andy

In message , The Medway
Handyman writes
dennis@home wrote:
Lets stick geoff in Dudley town hall with his upright and my daughter
with her Korg and a few hundred people (yes she has done that) and
see which gets the best response.

Dudley? You live in Dudley? Bloody hell that explains a lot...

Believe it or not I have played Dudley town hall ...

over 30 years ago

guitar, not piano, though

--
geoff

stuart noble wrote:
Acoustic sound isn't valued too highly these days

Fascinating sentence. I think I can guess what you mean but the concept
of non-acoustic sound is quite interesting!

Andy

dennis@home wrote:

I wonder what he would make of one of these?
http://www.yamaha-europe.com/yamaha_...000/index.html

Blimey...
best part of £10k
I should hope it does sound/feel like the proper job.
:¬)

--
http://www.GymRatZ.co.uk - Fitness+Gym Equipment.
http://www.bodysolid-gym-equipment.co.uk
http://www.trade-price-supplements.co.uk
http://www.water-rower.co.uk

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 18:24:40 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Stephen Howard wrote:
And fix it and tune it, of course. Which can be very difficult to do at
many gigs - even where money is no object.

Not really, I've been on quite modest gigs where a grand has been used
- the last one being with Kit and the Widow in a marquee in someone's
back garden.

Last time I saw them they worked unaccompanied. So the pitch of the piano
wouldn't be critical. On other gigs it might well be.

Not much point using an out-of-tune piano ( aka a Paino ), they'd be
better off without it - and the paper bag over the head gag would fall
a bit flat without a Joanna.


But I couldn't imagine them or Hinge and Bracket (sadly missed) working to
an electric piano. Or Elton John. A proper piano is part of the experience.

I can, mainly because I've stood barely 12 feet away from Elton while
he played a digital piano at one of my gigs.
Don't recall what make it was - but to be honest I wasn't really
paying much attention to the gear.
I know he's not averse to playing a Fender Rhodes either.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

geoff wrote:

Believe it or not I have played Dudley town hall ...

over 30 years ago

guitar, not piano, though


Electric?
:¬)

--
http://www.GymRatZ.co.uk - Fitness+Gym Equipment.
http://www.bodysolid-gym-equipment.co.uk
http://www.trade-price-supplements.co.uk
http://www.water-rower.co.uk

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:45:30 +0100, Owain
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
But I couldn't imagine ... Hinge and Bracket (sadly missed) working to
an electric piano.

Well, no. I don't suppose they'd know how to switch it on, or Maud (the
late Daphne Heard) would have used the instructions to light the boiler.
But maybe they would have preferred a tuned electric piano to the
average village hall instrument, which I don't imagine met with their
approval very frequently.

Would have made an excellent episode for their radio show though!

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

In message , www.GymRatZ.co.uk
writes


geoff wrote:

Believe it or not I have played Dudley town hall ...

over 30 years ago

guitar, not piano, though


Electric?

Dudley town hall - what else ?


:¬)


--
geoff

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 19:24:22 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip
Anyone who has ever worked in a recording studio would be delighted to be
able to get shot of the real piano. They take up a lot of room and cost a
deal to tune and maintain. But like all instruments they will never be
replaced by a synthesizer or sampler - except where the type of music
calls for that specific sound. Ie, the cheap to make sort.

I'm not sure that we should say 'never'. I just hope it's not in my
lifetime.

Funny that - that's pretty much what was said of the first pianos in
the early 18th century. It wasn't until the 1760s that the concept
gained any real sort of acceptance.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 22:48:22 +0100, geoff wrote:

In message , www.GymRatZ.co.uk
writes


geoff wrote:

Believe it or not I have played Dudley town hall ...

over 30 years ago

guitar, not piano, though


Electric?

Dudley town hall - what else ?


Coal ?

Derek

geoff wrote:
In message , The
Medway Handyman writes
dennis@home wrote:
Lets stick geoff in Dudley town hall with his upright and my
daughter with her Korg and a few hundred people (yes she has done
that) and see which gets the best response.

Dudley? You live in Dudley? Bloody hell that explains a lot...

Believe it or not I have played Dudley town hall ...

over 30 years ago

guitar, not piano, though

Bostin.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In message , Derek Geldard
writes
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 22:48:22 +0100, geoff wrote:

In message , www.GymRatZ.co.uk
writes


geoff wrote:

Believe it or not I have played Dudley town hall ...

over 30 years ago

guitar, not piano, though


Electric?

Dudley town hall - what else ?


Coal ?

Nah- no G-string
--
geoff

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:51:24 +0100, Andy Champ
wrote:

stuart noble wrote:
Acoustic sound isn't valued too highly these days

Fascinating sentence. I think I can guess what you mean but the concept
of non-acoustic sound is quite interesting!

It's called a 'rest'

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:57:36 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Signal saying
something like:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

You are an old fart as I have said.
Just because it doesn't look like a piano is enough to make you claim it
isn't a piano.
Tell the musicians that play electric violins that they aren't violins.

They don't sound like violins either...

They do sound like electric violins.

They sound bugger all like pianos, I know that much.

They don't burn as long either.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 22:15:06 +0100, Owain
wrote:

Stephen Howard wrote:
... maybe they would have preferred a tuned electric piano to the
average village hall instrument, which I don't imagine met with their
approval very frequently.
Would have made an excellent episode for their radio show though!

I can imagine the hall being used by a youth group the night before and
the keyboard being left on Calypso Rock or some such setting. Dr Evadne
would be transposing fit to burst a girdle.


Hilda: Heavens Evadne, what on EARTH is that dreadful sound m'dear?

Evadne: It says here...."Hammond"

Hilda: Eh m'dear, wassat? Gammon? Gammon?? I always said you were
ham-fisted m'dear.

Evandne: Yes, very droll, thank you. No, not gammon, Hammond - I
believe it's some kind of organ.

Hilda: aside Spleen, I'll be bound.

Evadne: I hope I didn't hear what I thought I just I heard!

Hilda: If you can't make it sound any different that's precisely what
the audience will be saying. Try pressing a few buttons.

Evadne: Well, if you insist presses buttons, keyboard plays sampled
dog noises

Together: Ahh, Bach!

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Stephen Howard
saying something like:

Maybe what kids need is a decent instrument and a sound that inspires
them - and lord knows I've seen my fair share of clunky old uprights
gathering dust simply because they're as uninspiring to play as a
cheese banjo.

You got that right. I not-so-fondly recall, as a kid, struggling away on
a succession of uprights in shiny brown wood, wrestling noises from them
and hoping they would magically fall to pieces so I could go home.
Ye gods, what I would have given then for a digital piano - even a Casio
keyboard - what joyful sounds could have been made to squawk from it.

By the time they appeared, the dream was dead.

--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

Stephen Howard wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:57:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Stephen Howard wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:12:26 +0000, Stephen Howard
wrote:


You can have Stanley Jordan then...even more effort!
http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=baDM3_6w8-E

Oh yeah!!

Like most modern jazz, incredibly skillful and clever, and leaves me
totally cold..

For sure, it's not Kenny Ball or Acker Bilk - and often has the same
effect that, say, a good red wine or a fine cheese has on many a
coarse palate.

Regards,



why make a perjorative remark?: I merely expressed a personal opinion,
and made no comment about others..

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I'm just saying an electric piano doesn't sound like a real one -
anymore than an electric guitar sounds like an acoustic one, or a drum
generator sound like a drum kit. However much place they may have in
modern music. I'm not even saying I don't like them.


Actually they can do,

No they can't. Nothing coming out of a loudspeaker - or even pair - can
match the interaction between soundboard, hammers/strings etc and the
acoustics of the room.

actually, that can all be synthesised: nobody can be bothered.

All the above are simple resontaors - a lot of them to be sure, but
nothing a good bit of software and a few DSPS couldn't handle.



but its a bit of a waste of time to make them that
way, since the acoustic stuff already exists, works well, and does the
same job.

Anyone who has ever worked in a recording studio would be delighted to be
able to get shot of the real piano. They take up a lot of room and cost a
deal to tune and maintain. But like all instruments they will never be
replaced by a synthesizer or sampler - except where the type of music
calls for that specific sound. Ie, the cheap to make sort.


Exactly; wehn it comes to duplicating te soumd of a bity opf cast iron
and some felt and bits of wood and teh a;bert hall, its cheaper to hire
a sodding grand and an engineer and the albert hall than spend a year
working out te major resonances in t above and duplicating them.

Nevertheless, it can be done. I made a remarkably good 'Leslie' speaker
out of an all pass phase shifter and a delay line once..enough to show
me that a DSP approached based on the above could certainly simulate a
variety of rooms and musical instrument soundboxes. Rooms are not that
hard to do either with various reverberators, but nothing on the market
I have heard is actually that good.

I even worked out te way to do it. Take your piano, hit it sharply with
a hammer, and do a time domain analysis, and approximate with N delay
lines and phase shifters, and you have a reverberant structure that is
essentially your piano. Do it with soft and loud pedals on and of, and
you have the response you want. Do it in a room and you have the
response of the piano in the room. Now add some basic string tone, and
the piano now starts to sound like a proper piano.

Give me 1/4 million and five years, and I'll do it for you..



Ultimately the problems of doing accurate SYNTHESIS were overcome by the
art of sampling. Rather like the original ..bugger I forget the name -
you know with a million lops of tape running inside it. Think Moody Blues..